Is this the South's most underrated downtown?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Greenville-2015/i-7W5rXwx/0/X2/DSCF8291-L.jpg)
Article by Ennis Davis
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-jan-is-this-the-souths-most-underrated-downtown
I've traveled to Greenville quite a bit in the last 15 years. They are certainly doing something from which Jacksonville can learn a lot.
I lived in Greenville for 2 years before moving to Jax 3 years ago. That city is a great model regarding revitalization when people with vision get together and make something happen. It helps that it has a very well educated population with Clemson and Furman being close by and many transplants working for the plethora of engineering companies, etc. According to the locals who grew up there though, there was absolutely no reason to go downtown 15+ years ago. It was dead, ugly, and had a highway going right through where the beautiful Falls Park now exists smack in the middle of Main Street. There are many things to learn from Greenville's experience, one thing is that downtowns that are bleak and seem to have no hope can transform over the course of 10 to 15 years. They have done a wonderful job restoring what was in place and infilling vacant property. You can walk down Main Street on a Monday night at 9 o'clock and there are still lots of people out and about. They shut down Main Street on Saturday's (or at least they did a few years ago) and it turns into one giant market with thousands of people. It is in my mind one of the most successful downtown revitalization effort in the country in the past 20 years.
There's an argument that it could be the nation's most underrated town. I was asked yesterday for my top 5 favorite public places/spaces in the country. Falls Park on the Reedy made the list.
^What's your other four favorite spaces?
^Doak Campbell
Strozier Library
Oglesby Union
Leach Center
I've never been, but now I really want to go. It looks like Chattanooga. Is that accurate?
My father is from Buffalo, NY. I still have a bunch of cousins up there. Anyway - that city was always a dump.
But the other day, I read an article about how Buffalo was "rising" and how they have regenerated the downtown and stuff. I think if they can manage to do stuff is a hole like Buffalo, we shouldn't have any problem in Jax.
As far as Greenville is concerned - I've never been there. But I thought the article was interesting in that it seems decisions made by people (like a four lane road through downtown) were probably made without an appreciation for the long-term negatives. I'm sure that road was built to handle increased traffic and was probably seen as a good thing at that point.
It's nice to see when people can learn from mistakes and make a conscious effort to change things. We don't need to settle for the way things are or just assume they can't get any better. And we shouldn't expect them to immediately change with one or two little (or big) fixes.
I blogged about Greenville extensively on MJ after my most recent trip there in late May. It's not big but is incredibly attractive, achieving a great balance between preservation of exiting buildings and new construction. The Main Street Farmers Market (on Saturdays) is tremendous.
One thing downtown Greenville has is that it is a source of pride among all of the County residents, not just the folks who live near downtown.
My friends and relatives who live in the Greater Greenville area take tremendous pride in how cool downtown has become. That's not the case in Jacksonville. If you can ever get the broad population of Duval County to take an interest in seeing downtown Jax being great again that would be a big help. My experience is that the Beach communities and the large population centers not in the immediate vicinity of the urban core could care less about downtown Jax. They rarely visit and have no vested interest in seeing it a s a hub of commercial or cultural activity.
While Greenville SC, was a hidden gem for some time, the word has definitely gotten out, as witnessed by this partial list of rankings:
#7 Best in the US to Visit in 2015
Lonely Planet
Top Six 2015's Hottest New Vacation Destinations
CBS News / Peter Greenberg
America's Greatest Main Streets
Travel & Leisure, 2012
Downtown Greenville Great American Main Street Award
National Trust for Historic Preservation
Greenville's Main Street Named Great American Street
American Planning Association
Main Street: #3 Best Alfresco Dining Neighborhoods
10 Best/USA Today
Top 12 "South's Best Foodie Cities"
Convention South, Readers' Choice List, 2014
Food Meccas - Best Up-and-Coming Food Destinations
Destination Travel Magazine, 2013
Falls Park on the Reedy: Top 10 Park in the US
Trip Advisor, 2014
Top 10 Cycling Cities in the United States
Global Cycling Network
5th Best "U.S. Cycling Town"
10Best Readers Choice Contest, 2014
GHS Swamp Rabbit Trail: #3 Best Urban Trail
10 Best/USA Today
Artisphere: Top 10 Fine Art Show in the US
Art Fair Sourcebook, 2014
TD Saturday Market - Top 20 Event in the Southeast
Southeast Tourism Society, 2013
Quote from: CCMjax on January 19, 2016, 08:46:54 AM
They have done a wonderful job restoring what was in place and infilling vacant property.
Just curious: Do you know the "what was in place" vs. "vacant property ratio", i.e. how much of downtown was still there when revitalization started ?
Quote from: Gunnar on January 19, 2016, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: CCMjax on January 19, 2016, 08:46:54 AM
They have done a wonderful job restoring what was in place and infilling vacant property.
Just curious: Do you know the "what was in place" vs. "vacant property ratio", i.e. how much of downtown was still there when revitalization started ?
I have lived in Greenville since '96, so I can speak with authority. There were definitely some icons that were lost. Every city has those. Since the late 1980's that has mostly stopped. There is a real appreciation for keeping the old architecture in place.
We were very lucky in that the storefronts fronting on Main Street itself were nearly all left intact. That made for an environment where organic growth could sprout up without the high cost of new construction. That is a big reason why I am so adamant against MOST demolitions in JAX.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 19, 2016, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: Gunnar on January 19, 2016, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: CCMjax on January 19, 2016, 08:46:54 AM
They have done a wonderful job restoring what was in place and infilling vacant property.
Just curious: Do you know the "what was in place" vs. "vacant property ratio", i.e. how much of downtown was still there when revitalization started ?
I have lived in Greenville since '96, so I can speak with authority. There were definitely some icons that were lost. Every city has those. Since the late 1980's that has mostly stopped. There is a real appreciation for keeping the old architecture in place.
We were very lucky in that the storefronts fronting on Main Street itself were nearly all left intact. That made for an environment where organic growth could sprout up without the high cost of new construction. That is a big reason why I am so adamant against MOST demolitions in JAX.
Thanks and definitely agree with you.
I can speak to the G-spot renaissance as well. I was raised in Greenville and my father still lives there. We moved there when I was a little kid in 75/76 and I remained there until I left for college in the early nineties. We lived in a down-townish neighborhood, Cleveland Forest, that bordered Cleveland Park, when I was young. We could even hear the lions roar in the zoo when we dined on the porch. The upper falls area (where that cool bridge is) and downtown proper was still very much a no-man's land then.
The development of the Peace center was a huge spur to its growth. The changes I witnessed to one downtown spot, The Corner Pocket, tells the story. As a teen in high school it was a seedy pool hall with blacked out windows that you could smoke in. By the time I was in my early 20's they had refurbished the inside and added a seating area to eat and replaced the window so you could see in. A few years later, it had become 2 levels and was packed with people hanging out and listening to music. There were only a couple of pool tables left and the name that gave a hint to it's original incarnation.
Funny thing is, as teens we couldn't wait to get out of that town. Now as an adult I think it would be a great place to live. Every time my wife and I travel there we go downtown to shop and hang out. She thinks it would be great to live there one day. Since she's a Jacksonville native and we only have traveled in the summer, I told her she needs to visit in Feb for a week and see if that changes her mind. :)
Don't let the pop numbers fool you either. The city limits are tightly drawn and no other city or area has wanted to incorporate for a long time. The MSA is about 850k so it's about 2/3 of Jax's size.
On every visit we always have a picnic in a particular area of Cleveland park that is like one of those hidden gems. I highly recommend a visit if you are in town: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rock+Quarry+Garden/@34.8425539,-82.3934853,18.9z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0000000000000000:0x45e8ae427ff437ad?hl=en
How does downtown Spartanburg compare?
Quote from: Deuce on January 22, 2016, 04:33:06 PM
Don't let the pop numbers fool you either. The city limits are tightly drawn and no other city or area has wanted to incorporate for a long time. The MSA is about 850k so it's about 2/3 of Jax's size.
Thanks for sharing! And the CSA is over 1.4 million, so just barely behind Jax.
CSAs are pretty weird and hard to compare apples to apples. For example, Palm Coast is a part of Orlando's CSA. Then some metros, like Tampa and Lakeland, aren't CSAs despite their downtowns being less than 30 miles apart and their MSA's being immediately adjacent to one another. Without a doubt, there's more of a connection between Tampa and Lakeland than Palm Coast and Orlando.
From my travels over the years, Greenville's metro reminds me more of Florida's MSAs where there's no real dominant central city (ie. Lakeland, Deltona-Daytona, Sarasota-Bradenton, etc.). Instead there's several small city pre WWII cities engulfed by lots of low density late 20th century sprawl. Most of these metro's largest cities are the same size or slightly larger than Greenville and the scale of their cores are pretty similar.
Jax's MSA is more traditional, where there's a dominate central city with historic characteristics of a pre-WWII urbanized core. Out of the South Carolina MSAs, Jax's development pattern is more historically comparable to Charleston's, where there's lots of sprawl radiating out from a single larger center.
Downtown Spartanburg is nice but in truth does not compare to Greenville. When I lived there (70's to 80's) they were referred to as the "twin cities."
One twin has grown on steroids, while the other has not.
FYI there is a fantastic original buidling stock in both towns for fans of beautiful residential neighborhoods.
I doubt this downtown is underrated by anyone who has been there. The stores, restaurants and attractions could hardly fail to please. It has something for everyone. It probably helps that there is a large university - Furman - nearby.
Furman's enrollment is less than JU's.
Furman's enrollment was 2940 (in 2014) according to their website. Not sure what JU is.
The campus at Furman University is stunning. Master planned in the 1950's it is now "grown up" and one of the nicest places you can imagine. I spent many summers there teaching at the SC Governors School for the Arts and it was always a great place to be. In the Fall the changing leaves are amazing. Academically very highly regarded.
JU is +3k.
Another great example of a commonly overlooked city that successfully turned around their downtown is Des Moines, Iowa.Their downtown was dead in the water with multiple failed attempts at revitalization for decades and now they have over 10,000 residents. Maybe worth a MJ Jax-shaming visit, but I'd love to hear from anyone that's been there lately or in the past for their thoughts.
Here's an interesting article on how civic leaders got together to make it one of the hipper new cities in America:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/how-des-moines-iowa-got-cool-213552
Quote from: WmNussbaum on January 24, 2016, 08:42:54 PM
I doubt this downtown is underrated by anyone who has been there. The stores, restaurants and attractions could hardly fail to please. It has something for everyone. It probably helps that there is a large university - Furman - nearby.
I would say Clemson grads have more of an impact on Greenville's economy and progress than Furman. Possibly even USC grads. Those are much bigger universities fairly close to Greenville. I worked with mostly Clemson grads when I lived there. Didn't meet one person that actually went to Furman or the mighty Bob Jones University! Furman is outside the city as well in the foothills, not in the center. Beautiful campus though.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 22, 2016, 05:00:00 PM
How does downtown Spartanburg compare?
Spartanburg does not have a river to build off of like Greenville has done. They have a nice park pretty close to DT, but it is not the draw that Falls Park is for Greenville. Spartanburg followed the Charlotte model of building urban suburban office buildings to revive DT. As we know that doesn't work.
However, in the last 7-8 years and particularly the last 4 or so, Spartanburg has gotten it's act together. Residential has been added to the mix in a significant way, the pedestrian experience is now the focus and there is some solid organic growth occurring. Arts and local retail have been emphasized with considerable success. A major upscale hotel was built a few years back and another one is under construction now. It really seems like they have turned the corner over there.
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on January 25, 2016, 01:00:22 AM
Another great example of a commonly overlooked city that successfully turned around their downtown is Des Moines, Iowa.Their downtown was dead in the water with multiple failed attempts at revitalization for decades and now they have over 10,000 residents. Maybe worth a MJ Jax-shaming visit, but I'd love to hear from anyone that's been there lately or in the past for their thoughts.
Here's an interesting article on how civic leaders got together to make it one of the hipper new cities in America:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/how-des-moines-iowa-got-cool-213552
I saw this article but didn't have a chance to read it at the time. I did a quick drive thru just before dusk about 2.3 years ago. I wasn't expecting to be impressed but it was pretty nice. It might have been even more impressed had I not just seen Minneapolis for the first time. The midwest really does have some cool cities.
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on January 19, 2016, 10:07:21 AM
I've never been, but now I really want to go. It looks like Chattanooga. Is that accurate?
There are similarities, but most of downtown Chattanooga's revitalization has occurred within close proximity of its riverfront, which is somewhat separated from the CBD. Its downtown has a larger footprint while Greenville's is more compact.
Chattanooga (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-may-exploring-chattanooga-vanguard-style/page/1) is historically a larger city. Thus, it's CBD is much larger than Greenville's.
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2016/03/07/greenville-wins-no-3-best-downtown-livability/81429518/ (http://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2016/03/07/greenville-wins-no-3-best-downtown-livability/81429518/)
The No. 3 best downtown in America belongs to Greenville in this years Livability.com rankings, marking the second year in a row in the Top 5 on the national website's and moving up one spot from last year.
Topping the "Top 10 Best Downtown 2016" was Alexandria, Virginia, with Santa Monica, California coming in second.
Following Greenville on the list are Seattle suburb Bellevue, Washington; Pittsburgh. Pennsylvania; Boise, Idaho; Tempe, Arizona; Dallas suburb Plano, Texas; Colorado Spings, Colorado; and Chicago suburb Evanston, Illinois.
Greenville joined Alexandria, Pittsburgh and Evanston as the only cities to stay on the list from last year.
The list was culled from more than 2,000 small and mid-sized cities and takes into account the elements of a downtown that provide a well-rounded blend of entertainment, culture, housing, walkability, diversity, affordability and rising population.
The finalists were selected from a group of 200 based on data, experiences and a desire to include a diversity of geography and size.
The list goes beyond identifying "places with more than just a quaint Main Street."
"Having a great downtown is about more than just great stores, and great restaurants," says Matt Carmichael, editor of Livability.com. "A great downtown needs people. Great cities need great spaces to gather. These cities and towns are wonderful places to get out and engage with your friends, family and other residents."
The website pointed to specific attributes, such as downtown's The Trappe Door restaurant among 120 independent, "one-of-a-kind" restaurants contained in a 10-block area of downtown.
"Downtown's arts scene reflects the city's growing diversity, with venues that draw nationally acclaimed performers, museums and small galleries and studios," according to the website. "While downtown provides residents with a modern, urban environment, there are plenty of ways to enjoy Mother Nature, starting with Falls Park on the Reedy River."
Greenville placed No. 4 on the list last year for Livability's "Top 10 Best Downtowns 2015," behind Pittsburgh, Minneapolis and Indianapolis.
The rankings for 2016:
Alexandria, VA
Santa Monica, CA
Greenville, SC
Bellevue, WA
Pittsburgh, PA
Boise, ID
Tempe, AZ
Plano, TX
Colorado Springs, CO
Evanston, IL
^^^^^^^^^
I will click on metrojacksonville.com banner ads until I get carpel tunnel for the site to do a 10 week learning from series on each of these downtowns ;D
Quote from: Deuce on January 22, 2016, 04:33:06 PM
The city limits are tightly drawn and no other city or area has wanted to incorporate for a long time.
Bingo-perhaps an element of success.
It's soooo weird to see Greenville so nice and shiny and considered to be a great place. I grew up in the area, went to Furman in the early 90s and stayed in GVL for another year after graduation. Downtown was just turning around near the end of my time there. The previously mentioned Peace Center opened when I was a freshman and by the time I graduated, the area around it really was hopping. Aside from that, downtown was pretty similar to Jax at that time - older small retail, business-y hotels, boarded up storefronts, etc. There seemed to be more successful restaurants than here. Some (many?) even dared to stay open past lunch hours!
I feel a bit guilty - I'm in the area twice a year or so visiting my parents, but I haven't taken that 45 minute drive to Greenville in over a decade.
Greenville's a wonderful lil' city. The Upcountry museum is a great regional gem.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 24, 2020, 10:22:49 AM
I got the San Marco Publix discussion onto a Greenville tangent. If a moderator could move the last couple of messages here that would be nice.
But to summarize, Greenville has become the focus of a possible move for us.
Just looking at what is being built ( in addition to what is all ready in place) , I am rather impressed.
Unfortunately, with Covid, we have no idea on when we will get up there and do real reconnaissance so for now I am visiting and trying to envision living in sone neighborhoods virtually :)
My best friend, born and raised in the Lakewood area of Jax, moved to Greenville 15 years ago and never looked back. He and I were in town this weekend, his first visit in years, and he was shocked at the condition of things (esp that Publix site looking the same now as it did then)
It's not just SM Publix. Damn Berkman II been standing like a skeleton for 15 years as well.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 24, 2020, 10:22:49 AM
I got the San Marco Publix discussion onto a Greenville tangent. If a moderator could move the last couple of messages here that would be nice.
But to summarize, Greenville has become the focus of a possible move for us.
Just looking at what is being built ( in addition to what is all ready in place) , I am rather impressed.
Unfortunately, with Covid, we have no idea on when we will get up there and do real reconnaissance so for now I am visiting and trying to envision living in sone neighborhoods virtually :)
Saw your post in the other thread. Wow...losing SMM to Charleston...well there's no shame in that. But to Greenville?? It's like...did we really come out ahead after "stealing" the Southeastern Grocers HQ? Which city wins that trade?
btw, what did you mean by future retiree tax friendliness. Does SC have some changes in the works?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 28, 2020, 12:51:35 AM
btw, what did you mean by future retiree tax friendliness. Does SC have some changes in the works?
I read that as "tax friendliness to a future retiree" not "retirees will see tax friendliness in the future"
Low tax rates - no wonder their Interstates are crap!
About that "marriage penalty" thing - y'all could divorce and "live in sin"! :D
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 28, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 28, 2020, 12:51:35 AM
btw, what did you mean by future retiree tax friendliness. Does SC have some changes in the works?
I read that as "tax friendliness to a future retiree" not "retirees will see tax friendliness in the future"
Yes it had to be one of the two and as I've understood it they've both been retired for awhile (SMM's 9-5 consists of eating donuts and discussing finance with whomever doesn't want to*) hence why I interpreted it that way.
*he also attends RSSM meetings and watches Boston sports teams, but those things largely occur outside the 9-5.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 28, 2020, 08:12:44 AMSorry, I worded the future retiree poorly. SC has a state income tax but the deductions sky rocket for age 65. With some simple repositioning of investments, we could probably get that tax bill down to zero. Combine that with property tax rates, and SC is one of the best states for retirees tax-wise. However, despite my retired status, there is a long way to go before that age, so things get a little dicey tax wise. Especially since Roth conversions ( from traditional IRA)are the typical move for early retirees. SC also has the marriage penalty in their brackets so it could be a killer. Quality of life is a variety of factors and the financial piece is just one. But when you are trying to self fund a (hopefully) 50 year retirement, the financial factor is amplified in our decisions. Especially with what I anticipate to be repressed future investments returns.
So no tears yet, Jaxons! You may have me for a longer period of time.
Ahh ok. Interesting to know! I doubt my wife would ever consider SC, but I am always curious about different cities and appreciate these little nuggets of slightly under-the-radar wisdom.