Jacksonville need to also have a better skyline as well. Maybe 2 or 3 700 footers, 2 650-700 footers, and a couple of in the 500's. Jacksonville would look more like it's size then.
Jax has a decent skyline for its size. Don't let the city limit population fool you. Jacksonville's urban area's population is more along the line of an urban Louisville or Memphis, as opposed to a Miami, Atlanta or Chicago.
I think unless the developer really has the mind set on dt that you'll see more development of you guessed it gate parkway.
Quote from: KennyLovesJAX on June 25, 2008, 08:54:48 PM
Jacksonville need to also have a better skyline as well. Maybe 2 or 3 700 footers, 2 650-700 footers, and a couple of in the 500's. Jacksonville would look more like it's size then.
I couldn't say it better myself! :D
if only we could plop them down like landmarks in simcity. Our skyline is modestly beautiful but even Louisville seems to have a denser downtown/cityscape.
Maybe in time, we've only had a modern skyline for about 30 years or so, the construction of the modis tower seemed to mark the begining of the glass & steel era.
It's a shame that riverwatch isn't going up anytime soon if at all, that would've filled in a gap. It's the aesthectic rule of 3's!
Louisville's is denser because they did not demolish the majority of their historic building fabric in the name of urban renewal.
Imagine if we found a way to preserve most of the structures in this image, while still finding a way to properly accomodate many of the modern structures we have today. The core would resemble a dense city.
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n032564.jpg)
I'd rather see the millions needed to erect a few glass boxes pumped into neighborhood development and improvement. Skyscraper architecture is tedious and does very little to enhance the vibrancy of its surroundings. It's always been a matter of civic or corporate vanity and serves a stark reminder that modern life cares little for the human scale.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2008, 09:33:57 PM
Jax has a decent skyline for its size. Don't let the city limit population fool you. Jacksonville's urban area's population is more along the line of an urban Louisville or Memphis, as opposed to a Miami, Atlanta or Chicago.
I disagree and completely understand what Kenney is saying. I know what you are saying Lake and it is true; the skyline for whatever the urban population of Jax is nowadays is appropriate and decent (for a city say of between 130,000 and 200,000 without city limit extensions to the county line border?).
But, we consolidated, and...our population should be akin to say Indianapolis, Miami, Cleveland, San Francisco, Denver, Atlanta, or even Dallas. No, we shouldn't try to make our skyline live up to the "mirrored" or false population statistics because of consolidation, but if we are thinking big league, and trying to live up to big league, then we should be big league, skyline and all.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2008, 09:13:32 AM
Louisville's is denser because they did not demolish the majority of their historic building fabric in the name of urban renewal.
Imagine if we found a way to preserve most of the structures in this image, while still finding a way to properly accomodate many of the modern structures we have today. The core would resemble a dense city.
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n032564.jpg)
I agree Lake; would have been nice if could have kept most of the older buildings; most were in the 200 to 300 foot range I think. But we would have demolished some or most anyway because we built the newer modern high rises on some of the old properties of those old low to mid rises. Still would have been nice though to keep some of those old towers; would have added immensely to denseness.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: KennyLovesJAX on June 25, 2008, 08:54:48 PM
Jacksonville need to also have a better skyline as well. Maybe 2 or 3 700 footers, 2 650-700 footers, and a couple of in the 500's. Jacksonville would look more like it's size then.
I did a Google Earth model a while back that showed 5 vacant lots in the CBD filled with 500-700 foot towers. Its amazing what happened to the skyline. I'll try to dig up the images and post them.
I'm still majorly bummed that Kuhn's Riverwatch tower didn't happen. That one building alone would have seriously transformed the skyline.
Well if many of the offices in South Point were consolidated into several office towers downtown we would not be having this conversation.The offices and buildings and bussiness is here its just spread out everywhere.I was just in South Point this week,very nice out there,just imagine many if not all of those buildings downtown.
Quote from: Jason on June 26, 2008, 02:11:58 PM
Quote from: KennyLovesJAX on June 25, 2008, 08:54:48 PM
Jacksonville need to also have a better skyline as well. Maybe 2 or 3 700 footers, 2 650-700 footers, and a couple of in the 500's. Jacksonville would look more like it's size then.
I did a Google Earth model a while back that showed 5 vacant lots in the CBD filled with 500-700 foot towers. Its amazing what happened to the skyline. I'll try to dig up the images and post them.
I'm still majorly bummed that Kuhn's Riverwatch tower didn't happen. That one building alone would have seriously transformed the skyline.
And the St. John's next to the Aetna Building on the Southbank...need to get that built too; from what I hear it is in the approved stage just waiting for many more purchase commitments; get that thing built and we do have a dramatic change, though on the Southbank, of the entire skyline (it will be taller than MODIS).
Heights Unknown
I think we need a update on all this supposed projects that was supposed to happen.
Quote from: heights unknown on June 26, 2008, 07:57:47 PM(it will be taller than Modis)
In speaking of Modis, not the go off course, but the Modis sign on the Bay Street side(not facing the river); The "o" in Modis is partially blown off due to the tropical storm. I'll hate to be the victim to get hit wit' that!!!!
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6316-dsc_0004.JPG)
The "skyline" is not the problem. The "groundline" is. Abandoned, dusty old buildings do not invite new businesses/tennants/people walking by.
When things improve on the street level, THEN big time investors might be interested in putting up some more 'scrapes.
La Villa could be a tremendous area if more was invested in it and more middle class folks were attracted to it for example.
Here are some of the images I promised earlier in the thread:
First off, Riverwatch Tower
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/RiverwatchTower-1-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/RiverwatchTower-2-1.jpg)
Here are a group of images that show the 5 major vacant lots in the CBD covered with nice new towers. Completely different skyline. Also includes many of the failed proposals and a riverfront convention center of my own.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-2.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-3.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-4.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-5.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-6.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-7.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-8.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JaxoftheFuture-9.jpg)
And Lastly, a comparison of today's skyline to the future skyline if all of the proposals would have been built...
Today
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JacksonvilleToday-1.jpg)
Tomorrow
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JacksonvilleTomorrow-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/JacksonvilleTomorrow-2.jpg)
those pics are real pretty and it would be great if these buildings were ever built, but there is something called economic reality and that reality appears to be missing from your dreams.
In order for buildings to be built people need to invest money for the building of them and in order to attract investment monies these projects need to prove their viability, their ability to provide a return on investment, these planned buildings have to attract tenants.
Nobody, especially now, is going to build anything on "spec" so unless a building has tenants in place before being built, not much will get built.
Like it or not the urban core, downtown JAX is not a commercial real estate hot bed of activity and not too many companies are in expansion mode right now and companies looking to relocate aren't being attracted to the core.
Keep dreaming, your ideas are great but factor reality into those dreams
APV... I agree with everything you have said, but my guess is that these models were made for fun to put his dream into visible form for the rest of us. I would love for all of those buildings to be built too. I think we all understand it's not going to happen, not anytime soon at least. But I don't see how he can 'inject economic reality' into what he has done, and there's no need to demand it. Just view it for what it is.. something to stimulate your dreams for what downtown could be in the future. Most people do not define a dream as being laden with fiscal realities and market demographics, etc..
Quote from: Tripoli1711 on August 27, 2008, 09:12:07 AM
APV... I agree with everything you have said, but my guess is that these models were made for fun to put his dream into visible form for the rest of us. I would love for all of those buildings to be built too. I think we all understand it's not going to happen, not anytime soon at least. But I don't see how he can 'inject economic reality' into what he has done, and there's no need to demand it. Just view it for what it is.. something to stimulate your dreams for what downtown could be in the future. Most people do not define a dream as being laden with fiscal realities and market demographics, etc..
if there were no dreamers there would be no innovations, see edison, he dreamt and then created the electric power industry that we have today. All I am saying is that his visions for the core are great, what is missing is the occupants for these buildings. And that is the crux of many of D/T Jax's issues, what can be done to get people excited enough to come d/t? The slipshod practices of the past attempts don't seem to have done anything to enhance the area, new lighting, sidewalks and streetscapes are all nice but they are playing to an empty house, what needs to be done is create a focused plan to attract new players into the market and create a critical mass that is needed to expand the viability of the core.
It is a chicken and egg situation and the powers in charge need to break that impasse
True point. You are exactly right about the streetscape, etc.. at the moment it would just be something to fascinate the homeless people. I dont know if it is the chicken or the egg.. but I think downtown is ready for a lot more in the way of nightlife and entertainment. I do think build it and they will come is correct in this instance. Springfield, San Marco and Riverside are all so close and with intelligent public transportation as well as personal vehicles, they could be at any downtown destination in a snap.
Quote from: Tripoli1711 on August 27, 2008, 09:44:56 AM
True point. You are exactly right about the streetscape, etc.. at the moment it would just be something to fascinate the homeless people. I dont know if it is the chicken or the egg.. but I think downtown is ready for a lot more in the way of nightlife and entertainment. I do think build it and they will come is correct in this instance. Springfield, San Marco and Riverside are all so close and with intelligent public transportation as well as personal vehicles, they could be at any downtown destination in a snap.
night life and entertainmant are fine things to want and have however they are not the foundation that a viable and vibrant core can be built on
I admit I am pretty ignorant at how to build an urban core, so I'm sure you are right. But I think there is a psychological issue with downtown for a lot of people in the city. Growing up at the beaches, lots of people only go downtown for court, and now for Jaguars games. I guess I'm thinking the perception that downtown is a thriving place, brought about by entertainment and nightlife, would create a buzz that would establish some foundation to build on. As I said, this isn't my line.. so I may be way off.
Quote from: apvbguy on August 27, 2008, 08:44:36 AM
those pics are real pretty and it would be great if these buildings were ever built, but there is something called economic reality and that reality appears to be missing from your dreams.
In order for buildings to be built people need to invest money for the building of them and in order to attract investment monies these projects need to prove their viability, their ability to provide a return on investment, these planned buildings have to attract tenants.
Nobody, especially now, is going to build anything on "spec" so unless a building has tenants in place before being built, not much will get built.
Like it or not the urban core, downtown JAX is not a commercial real estate hot bed of activity and not too many companies are in expansion mode right now and companies looking to relocate aren't being attracted to the core.
Keep dreaming, your ideas are great but factor reality into those dreams
If you want to see some dreaming I did a series of Google models that filled up about every vacant lot in the downtown area. ;D
Economic reality almost gave us the first significant modification to the CBD skyline (Riverwatch) since the BofA tower was finished in the 90's but that too was lost when Kuhn went under. Add to that all of the towers that did make it to construction during the boom: San Marco Place, Strand, Peninsula, Berkman II, Fidelity, Everbank, and the multiple renovations to existing structures. These projects all proved that there is an economic reality to the dreams I posted. My original vision was 5 or 6 new towers in the CBD skyline and 6 towers were actually built (although not in the same spot nor mass). The economic downturn also stopped 3 more significant towers from being built! From what I can see, there was a pretty good bit of economic reality incorporated into my dream, I just got some heights and locations wrong. Maybe I should create another image with the newest towers occupying the lots my dream towers now cover. ;D
I like your dream(s) Jason.......yes, that's more like it. Nothing wrong with dreams. As someone said, we know that the depictions in the artist renderings may not happen soon, or at all, but its nice to see what could have been, what could be, or what might be. I live in West Central Florida now, (close to Tampa), and it makes me jealous when I see Tampa building up and building out in its downtown and Central core, speeding away and looking at Jax in the rear view mirror. Would be nice though to see stretched density in our (Jax) downtown core. When the economy changes, maybe we'll all of a sudden get 8 to 10 such towers approved almost over night.
Heights Unknown
*clicks on landmarks menu*
*plops down 3 sear towers*
Quote from: David on August 27, 2008, 11:17:11 AM
*clicks on landmarks menu*
*plops down 3 sear towers*
the amount of people who come downtown for shopping, entertainment or anything other than going to work wouldn't be able to fill a sears store let alone a sears tower.
Just for you Apvbguy ;D
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/SearsTowerinJax-6.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/SearsTowerinJax-3.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/SearsTowerinJax-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/SearsTowerinJax-4.jpg)
How about a really tall sculpture... um... say... A giant Seminole indian... or Andrew Jackson...
LOL @ Jason. You're a sick, sick man. From another, related thread: Jason - whatever happened to those promised SimCity shots of Jax? Talk about '6 more skyscrapers' indeed!
Quote from: Doctor_K on August 27, 2008, 01:26:31 PM
LOL @ Jason. You're a sick, sick man. From another, related thread: Jason - whatever happened to those promised SimCity shots of Jax? Talk about '6 more skyscrapers' indeed!
Heh, I looked for that a few weeks ago and couldn't find it. My other cities are nothing close to Jax.
Someone fill me in on all the recently built and currently under construction towers for jax...
Was the shipyards or Berkman 2 ever built????
what stages are they in?
any new skyscrapers?
Berkman II (23 floors) is under construction.
Others recently completed are:
Southbank
- Peninsula (38 floors) *new tallest on the southbank
- Strand (28 floors)
- San Marco Place (21 floors)
Brooklyn (Riverside Ave corridor)
- Fidelity
- Everbank Plaza (13 floors)
There was once a Sears and JCPenney department store in downtown jax. I really get tired of traveling the world over to get to Sears and Penneys today. It would be really nice to have this one comfort spot that would fearure a highrise for downtown employees only. I already have it all figured out. :) If you work in downtown Jx-you live in walking distance to your employers and this cuts down on gas abuse and rent/mortgage payments as well. Everyone will want to live and play in downtown jax. there is also a people mover that provides transportation to and from the city's outskirts as well. Dreaming and Creating. deb of jacksonville.