QuoteMayor Lenny Curry unveiled his plan for paying down the city's huge pension debt when the City Council's Finance Committee met Monday morning.
Curry said he favors extending the Better Jacksonville Plan's half-cent sales tax, which is slated to expire in 2030, and using the additional sales tax revenue to tackle the pension debt, which is a heavy weight on city finances.
That option would require a change in state law because the local-option infrastructure sales tax used for the Better Jacksonville Plan does not allow the sales tax money to go for day-to-day expenses, such as pension obligations.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-01-04/story/curry-plans-unveil-his-pension-fix-city-council-finance-committee?utm_source=eyepiece&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=cxense&cx_navSource=eyepiece#cxrecs_s
If the BJP tax expires then it would require a referendum to replace it with a similar size tax for operations.
What this is really saying is they cant extend the BJP tax and then direct it towards the pension.
This "solution" is certainly easy to swallow politically becuase it kicks the can down the road another 14 years, long after our leaders are out of office.
^ it is a serious cop out...and allows politicians to play semantics by saying they "didn't raise taxes." This is too important, so just bite the bullet!
QuoteHow Mayor Lenny Curry built support for plan to pay down pension debt
By David Chapman, Staff Writer
Mayor Lenny Curry knew when he took office July 1 of the financial burdens in front of him.
The biggest? Figuring out how to pay down the city's almost $2.7 billion in unfunded pension liabilities.
The debt and required annual pay-down drains money that could be used for quality-of-life improvements, infrastructure and Curry's top priority, public safety.
After months of private discussions, he went public with his plan Monday.
Curry wants to extend the Better Jacksonville Plan's 1/2-cent sales tax, scheduled to expire in 2030, for up to 30 years.
He wants to move future employees, including public safety members, to a 401(k)-style defined contribution plan. And he wants this decided by elected officials, not by voters in a referendum like when the infrastructure tax originally was put into place in 2000.
It was a problem he began reviewing during his transition. And this course, his Plan A, is one he decided on in the summer, shortly after taking office and meeting with his senior staff for possible solutions.
The plan starts with the Legislature. In December, he recruited two Northeast Florida legislators with a recent history of success on state pension reform.
"If Northeast Florida can't get its financial house in order, it will have implications," said state Sen. Rob Bradley. "This can fairly be described as a financial crisis that needs to be addressed."
State Rep. Travis Cummings will be House sponsor of a bill expected to be filed by the end of the week.
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=546790
I'm sorry, but this proposal is woefully inadequate and quite disappointing. The Mayor is correct...our city is crumbling and the pension liability is a crisis. So how about taking a stand, putting forth a serious proposal, and admitting that we need additional revenue (you know raise taxes)?
Local option sales taxes in Florida require voter approval - whether it be a new tax or extending an existing one. And given that voters approved the BJP to fund infrastructure projects, using that money to pay down the pension debt should surely require going back to the voters.
Why not bite the bullet and raise the millage rate to fund the pension. Alternately, if it seems easier to cop out, ask the voters to extend BJP to pay for infrastructure type projects....and then take the money we would have spent on infrastructure from the general fund and instead use it on the pension.
Quoteraise the millage rate to fund the pension
Ah, raise the millage rate, that's the "original thinking" you counted on from Mayor Curry? Why not just raid JEA for millions? What happened to all the land that Mayor Brown had Renee Finley of Blue Cross Blue Shield inspect and build a spreadsheet for on the value and look to sell some it off? Why not just put the tax where it needs to be, on the backs of every person who buys anything in Jacksonville? Sales tax is more fair and equitable. Everyone pays for JSO and JFRD services, period, even those who buy cigarettes at the Shell station, but who may not pay taxes on a home because its worth less than the $50,000 SOS BS.
^Yeah, it's interesting of all things related to our pension fiasco that folks could jump on, this proposal is what's drawing that kind of response.
I think this is an interesting idea that's well worth pursuing. I think the issue is how he's selling it. It's not an extension, obviously, when the previous tax had a built in sunset that would require a huge amount of effort to do again. It's a new tax, but it has the benefit of not affecting taxpayers more than they're used to.
The millage tax is the other option. The problem with that is the same problem we've had so far: it's set by every year's budget, and thus subject to whoever's on the Council or in the Mayor's office - and many of them campaign on the promise of not raising taxes. The sales tax will be harder for newcomers to futz with or divert to other things. However, the if the sales tax plan doesn't work out, the millage tax is probably the only way we'll ever put a dent in it (until the next mayor cuts it back again).
Quote from: Tacachale on January 07, 2016, 01:17:12 PM
^Yeah, it's interesting of all things related to our pension fiasco that folks could jump on, this proposal is what's drawing that kind of response.
I think this is an interesting idea that's well worth pursuing. I think the issue is how he's selling it. It's not an extension, obviously, when the previous tax had a built in sunset that would require a huge amount of effort to do again. It's a new tax, but it has the benefit of not affecting taxpayers more than they're used to.
The millage tax is the other option. The problem with that is the same problem we've had so far: it's set by every year's budget, and thus subject to whoever's on the Council or in the Mayor's office - and many of them campaign on the promise of not raising taxes. The sales tax will be harder for newcomers to futz with or divert to other things. However, the if the sales tax plan doesn't work out, the millage tax is probably the only way we'll ever put a dent in it (until the next mayor cuts it back again).
He's selling it in the manner it has to be sold in order for it to pass. I don't care how it's sold as long as it gets down.
Considering the revenues are not available for 14 years yet, how is this making a dent until then? The millage rate was LOWERED in the good years, and had that not happened, the issue would never have occurred on the scale that it did. A mileage increase is the best option. It takes affect now, not 14 years down the road and it puts the burden on those that got the break, as best as it can be.
Quote from: MEGATRON on January 07, 2016, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 07, 2016, 01:17:12 PM
^Yeah, it's interesting of all things related to our pension fiasco that folks could jump on, this proposal is what's drawing that kind of response.
I think this is an interesting idea that's well worth pursuing. I think the issue is how he's selling it. It's not an extension, obviously, when the previous tax had a built in sunset that would require a huge amount of effort to do again. It's a new tax, but it has the benefit of not affecting taxpayers more than they're used to.
The millage tax is the other option. The problem with that is the same problem we've had so far: it's set by every year's budget, and thus subject to whoever's on the Council or in the Mayor's office - and many of them campaign on the promise of not raising taxes. The sales tax will be harder for newcomers to futz with or divert to other things. However, the if the sales tax plan doesn't work out, the millage tax is probably the only way we'll ever put a dent in it (until the next mayor cuts it back again).
He's selling it in the manner it has to be sold in order for it to pass. I don't care how it's sold as long as it gets down.
True. I just don't think subtlety works very well in politics. He could just acknowledge that it's a new tax, but it has the benefit that folks won't get hit with an increase once it kicks in.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 07, 2016, 02:08:03 PM
Considering the revenues are not available for 14 years yet, how is this making a dent until then? The millage rate was LOWERED in the good years, and had that not happened, the issue would never have occurred on the scale that it did. A mileage increase is the best option. It takes affect now, not 14 years down the road and it puts the burden on those that got the break, as best as it can be.
Typically I'd agree, but that's also the problem: every subsequent council and mayor will have the opportunity to mess with the milleage rate again. We could be right back where we're at in short order. But, as I say, it's likely the only way to make any headway if the mayor's plan doesn't come together.
As for how it makes a dent now, it's based on the unfunded liability, which is calculated by projected costs decades in the future. The reason we pay so much from the general fund each year (a crippling amount, it's like $150 million) is that we don't have any other way to make it up. This would do that, and it would be harder for future pols to mess with than the conventional options.
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 07, 2016, 01:58:25 AM
Sales tax is more fair and equitable. Everyone pays for JSO and JFRD services, period, even those who buy cigarettes at the Shell station, but who may not pay taxes on a home because its worth less than the $50,000 SOS BS.
I agree. Problem is raising local option sales tax requires voter approval in Florida, and Mayor Curry is trying to get permission to avoid a referendum.
QuoteI think this is an interesting idea that's well worth pursuing. I think the issue is how he's selling it. It's not an extension, obviously, when the previous tax had a built in sunset that would require a huge amount of effort to do again. It's a new tax, but it has the benefit of not affecting taxpayers more than they're used to.
Its NOT a new tax if you are already paying for the tax. New tax? Really? Going from 7% tax rate to 7.5%, now THAT would be a new tax. I hav more math for you, if needed.
If you are paying for the taxed rate now, its not a new tax, its the same taxed rate. Just like the toll roads that never went away, the BJP tax will never go away, although the mayor should discuss a way to pay for the fixing of the main library out of the BJP funds since the old contractor is going belly up.
Where was "I'm with Alvin" during all of the thought process? Raiding JEA was a good deal then, why not now? Did Alvin Brown crawl under a rock and never surface? Where are all of his staff who thought raiding the JEA piggy bank was a good idea?
Mayor Brown was the head of the Republican Party of Florida, geez, he knows how to get stuff done! First City Council, then Florida Legislature. Easy Peasy, nice and neaty!
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 10, 2016, 12:51:18 AM
QuoteI think this is an interesting idea that's well worth pursuing. I think the issue is how he's selling it. It's not an extension, obviously, when the previous tax had a built in sunset that would require a huge amount of effort to do again. It's a new tax, but it has the benefit of not affecting taxpayers more than they're used to.
Its NOT a new tax if you are already paying for the tax. New tax? Really? Going from 7% tax rate to 7.5%, now THAT would be a new tax. I hav more math for you, if needed.
If you are paying for the taxed rate now, its not a new tax, its the same taxed rate. Just like the toll roads that never went away, the BJP tax will never go away, although the mayor should discuss a way to pay for the fixing of the main library out of the BJP funds since the old contractor is going belly up.
Where was "I'm with Alvin" during all of the thought process? Raiding JEA was a good deal then, why not now? Did Alvin Brown crawl under a rock and never surface? Where are all of his staff who thought raiding the JEA piggy bank was a good idea?
Mayor Brown was the head of the Republican Party of Florida, geez, he knows how to get stuff done! First City Council, then Florida Legislature. Easy Peasy, nice and neaty!
I support Curry, but this is a new tax, in that the previous BJP tax is expiring and Curry will have to create another through referendum or the legislature. However, you're right, the replacement tax won't be more of a burden on taxpayers when it kicks in. That fact is one of the things that makes it worth pursuing.
Iagree that it's interesting how much this plan is getting criticism from certain quarters that were silent when Brown' promoted his crazy pension plans, or even supported them.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2016, 11:18:21 AM
QuoteHow Mayor Lenny Curry built support for plan to pay down pension debt
By David Chapman, Staff Writer
Mayor Lenny Curry knew when he took office July 1 of the financial burdens in front of him.
The biggest? Figuring out how to pay down the city's almost $2.7 billion in unfunded pension liabilities.
The debt and required annual pay-down drains money that could be used for quality-of-life improvements, infrastructure and Curry's top priority, public safety.
After months of private discussions, he went public with his plan Monday.
Curry wants to extend the Better Jacksonville Plan's 1/2-cent sales tax, scheduled to expire in 2030, for up to 30 years.
He wants to move future employees, including public safety members, to a 401(k)-style defined contribution plan. And he wants this decided by elected officials, not by voters in a referendum like when the infrastructure tax originally was put into place in 2000.
It was a problem he began reviewing during his transition. And this course, his Plan A, is one he decided on in the summer, shortly after taking office and meeting with his senior staff for possible solutions.
The plan starts with the Legislature. In December, he recruited two Northeast Florida legislators with a recent history of success on state pension reform.
"If Northeast Florida can't get its financial house in order, it will have implications," said state Sen. Rob Bradley. "This can fairly be described as a financial crisis that needs to be addressed."
State Rep. Travis Cummings will be House sponsor of a bill expected to be filed by the end of the week.
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=546790
After MONTHS of Private discussions. Where is Carla Miller and the Ethics Commission? How about one quote on 2014-769 and the forensic audit? How about one quote from anyone on the shakeup that is taking place on the Ethics Commission? Didn't a JUDGE rule the 30 year agreement invalid?
BJP-Better Jacksonville Pension
BJP-Better Just Pay
67 counties in the state of Florida
The Legislature is truly creating Entitlement County
Visit Jacksonville!
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 07, 2016, 10:45:36 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 07, 2016, 01:58:25 AM
Sales tax is more fair and equitable. Everyone pays for JSO and JFRD services, period, even those who buy cigarettes at the Shell station, but who may not pay taxes on a home because its worth less than the $50,000 SOS BS.
I agree. Problem is raising local option sales tax requires voter approval in Florida, and Mayor Curry is trying to get permission to avoid a referendum.
Per article in the T-U this morning it sounds like the actual legislation that was filed will require voter approval.
How is it even remotely possible that any pension fund is underfunded given that, since the 2009 low, the stock market has tripled in value and the bond yields have fallen to record lows, which means bond portfolios should have soared in value? Pension funds should be, if anything, over-funded right now.
Because the city didn't pay enough into it before and during the recession, or identify another funding source to deal directly with the liability. Hence the sales tax proposal.
Not too familiar with the problem but my understanding was that the city didn't match the contributions when the market was doing well. Instead of the 8% match, it may have been 2-4% and they let the investments make up the remainder. Once the economy tanked, crap hit the fan.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on February 23, 2016, 02:04:36 PM
No matter what, one can always say "The city did not pay enough" to explain away any under funding since the city has all the risk.
The flawed model, faulty assumptions, excessive expenses, zero oversight,"bonus payments" (my personal favorite ), and DROP had absolutely nothing to do with it:)
I'll assume this is directed at my comment. Therefore, Ill venture to say both yes and no. To play devils advocate for the sake of the discussion, I wouldn't say the model is flawed. It seemed to be overfunded prior to the 90's, maybe into the early 2000's. Once again, it was just mismanaged within the last 20 years or so.
I don't know what you mean by "faulty assumptions, excessive expenses, zero oversight, "bonus payments"". Those are kinda vague statements and I don't believe bonuses dip into the pension plan. I'll agree about the DROP plan though. That's like double dipping, but without knowing the history of the plan, did it work before?
Regardless, its a mess that has no easy answer.
Quote from: camarocane on February 23, 2016, 02:54:58 PM
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on February 23, 2016, 02:04:36 PM
No matter what, one can always say "The city did not pay enough" to explain away any under funding since the city has all the risk.
The flawed model, faulty assumptions, excessive expenses, zero oversight,"bonus payments" (my personal favorite ), and DROP had absolutely nothing to do with it:)
I'll assume this is directed at my comment. Therefore, Ill venture to say both yes and no. To play devils advocate for the sake of the discussion, I wouldn't say the model is flawed. It seemed to be overfunded prior to the 90's, maybe into the early 2000's. Once again, it was just mismanaged within the last 20 years or so.
I don't know what you mean by "faulty assumptions, excessive expenses, zero oversight, "bonus payments"". Those are kinda vague statements and I don't believe bonuses dip into the pension plan. I'll agree about the DROP plan though. That's like double dipping, but without knowing the history of the plan, did it work before?
Regardless, its a mess that has no easy answer.
Sanmarcomatt has his own theory about the pension fiasco. I don't think it's accepted very widely. At any rate, it doesn't get us out of having to deal with the issue.
In general, you're pretty much right. When things were good, the city reduced the contribution and the tax rate, as revenues were high enough to keep it fully funded. Later, however, the city added benefits without increasing the contribution, and in fact *reduced* the contribution. This became a much bigger problem when the economy went in the tank, devastating our revenues. The city still didn't increase the contribution, or raise taxes enough to cover it. The result is that now $150 million has to come out of the city's general budget every year just to tread water. So yes, mismanagement is the bottom line.
Dont forget that Keane stuck to his 8% rate of return when every other public pension fund manager in the US said it wasnt possible. And that is exactly what didnt happen. No 8% return. Culpability is not just the city, its the pension board too.
Thanks for shedding some light on the issue Bill!
Too many times people spread misinformation on this subject, its nice to see facts laid out rather than vague passive aggressive statements capped with emoticons.
The pension bill, House Bill 1297, passed the Florida House yesterday. And by a wide margin.
Quote
Jacksonville defies odds and gets pension bill approved in House
JAX Chamber, City Council members travel to Capitol to lend support for bill
By David Bauerlein & Tia Mitchell Wed, Feb 24, 2016 @ 8:45 pm | updated Thu, Feb 25, 2016 @ 6:54 am
The weather forecast was rife with warnings about heavy rain and tornado threats when a bus carrying JAX Chamber and City Council members left Jacksonville early Wednesday for a trip to the state Capitol.
By the time the chartered bus reached Tallahassee, the clouds had cleared and the sky had turned blue as the Jacksonville contingent marched into the Capitol and watched the House approve a pension-related tax bill for Jacksonville by a decisive 86-23 margin.
Slideshow: Watching the pension vote
The House vote capped a two-month journey for the bill that resembled the bus trip. Both started with warnings that the ride could be turbulent, but in the end, the bill aimed at helping Jacksonville fix its pension crisis overcame the House's usual aversion to passing anything that has "tax" in it.
Mayor Lenny Curry, who traveled weekly to Tallahassee to meet with lawmakers and press the city's case at five committee hearings in the House and Senate, sat in a front-row seat in the House gallery when the vote total lit up on an electronic board.
"It was a quick moment of elation, and then a recognition that it's time to move on and start thinking about the Senate and working with the governor and then what comes after that," Curry said of his reaction.
...
If the referendum fails, all that effort, which sounds quite large will be wasted. I sure hope they have a plan B.
QuoteI sure hope they have a plan B.
I am sure it does not include raiding JEA for all their future funds. Now that was a stupid idea!
Great job Lenny. I am hearing this will pass the Senate and the Governor will sign it. He has used his influence in Tallahassee to help Jacksonville!
QuoteThis is about taking out a loan that we don't begin to pay back until 2030, when there is a ton of interest to pay down, and it takes away the ability to use the half penny sales tax option for capital improvements for another 45 years from now.
If I understand correctly, it won't even PROVIDE any funds until 2030, right? Are they bonding the tax revenues that won't even come in until 2030?
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
All because they dont want to put it to a vote in their political life.
This is a great example of where political dogma gets in the way of common sense.
Perfect example of what is wrong with our country.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 26, 2016, 01:55:04 PM
If I understand correctly, it won't even PROVIDE any funds until 2030, right? Are they bonding the tax revenues that won't even come in until 2030?
correct....the plan is to bond money early and then pay back (with interest of course) using future tax revenues
The benefit of the sales tax is that unlike the property tax, future mayors can't futz with it every year. That's part of how we got into our current situation. It's a forward thinking way of dealing with the issue. The 2030 start date puts some people off, which is understandable. But our yearly contributions are calculated by looking not just this year, but decades in the future (we'll always be dealing with retirement benefits). The reason our current contribution is so crippling -I think $150 million every year - is because there's no other dedicated funding going into it now or in the foreseeable future, so it has to come from the general budget. A dedicated injection coming up should free up a lot of money, especially when no future mayor can remove it.
Quote from: stephendare on February 26, 2016, 10:06:03 AM
This is about taking out a loan that we don't begin to pay back until 2030, when there is a ton of interest to pay down, and it takes away the ability to use the half penny sales tax option for capital improvements for another 45 years from now.
To be honest, its kind of a terrible way to do this. Just convenient for the moment. Kick the dept waaay down the line, and give it lots of time to swell.
Think of is this way. Its a step in the right direction. Sure, we'll have a ton of interest to pay back BUT from the moment its signed into law, the pension STOPS for all future employees. It may take 50+ years to fix the problem, but it still fixes the problem.
Who really cares about the half cent sales tax for capital improvements? According to Mousa its not like they're going to invest any of those funds downtown until the pension issue is fixed anyway.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 26, 2016, 03:29:31 PM
The benefit of the sales tax is that unlike the property tax, future mayors can't futz with it every year. That's part of how we got into our current situation. It's a forward thinking way of dealing with the issue. The 2030 start date puts some people off, which is understandable. But our yearly contributions are calculated by looking not just this year, but decades in the future (we'll always be dealing with retirement benefits). The reason our current contribution is so crippling -I think $150 million every year - is because there's no other dedicated funding going into it now or in the foreseeable future, so it has to come from the general budget. A dedicated injection coming up should free up a lot of money, especially when no future mayor can remove it.
So what do the other FL cities do? Are pensions not paid for with General Fund revenues in the other cities? Does any other FL city pay for it's pension using Sales Taxes?
Quote from: vicupstate on February 26, 2016, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 26, 2016, 03:29:31 PM
The benefit of the sales tax is that unlike the property tax, future mayors can't futz with it every year. That's part of how we got into our current situation. It's a forward thinking way of dealing with the issue. The 2030 start date puts some people off, which is understandable. But our yearly contributions are calculated by looking not just this year, but decades in the future (we'll always be dealing with retirement benefits). The reason our current contribution is so crippling -I think $150 million every year - is because there's no other dedicated funding going into it now or in the foreseeable future, so it has to come from the general budget. A dedicated injection coming up should free up a lot of money, especially when no future mayor can remove it.
So what do the other FL cities do? Are pensions not paid for with General Fund revenues in the other cities? Does any other FL city pay for it's pension using Sales Taxes?
No clue. But not all of them are fit models for Jacksonville. At any rate I doubt many of them have let things get as out of whack as we have.
Quote from: stephendare on February 26, 2016, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: camarocane on February 26, 2016, 03:48:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 26, 2016, 10:06:03 AM
This is about taking out a loan that we don't begin to pay back until 2030, when there is a ton of interest to pay down, and it takes away the ability to use the half penny sales tax option for capital improvements for another 45 years from now.
To be honest, its kind of a terrible way to do this. Just convenient for the moment. Kick the dept waaay down the line, and give it lots of time to swell.
Think of is this way. Its a step in the right direction. Sure, we'll have a ton of interest to pay back BUT from the moment its signed into law, the pension STOPS for all future employees. It may take 50+ years to fix the problem, but it still fixes the problem.
Who really cares about the half cent sales tax for capital improvements? According to Mousa its not like they're going to invest any of those funds downtown until the pension issue is fixed anyway.
the decision will last forty five years after Curry is out of office.
This is the most attractive thing about it. We'll be dealing with retirement payment for a lot longer than 45 years, but if he just raised the mullahs rate the next mayor could cancel it in 4 or 8 years.
I'm agin it.
If we're going to raise the sales tax a la The Better Jacksonville Plan v. 2.0, wouldn't it be better to again use it for funding infrastructure improvements so at least the city has something concrete to show for in a few years a la the BJP funded main library, ballpark, arena, courthouse, etc.?
Quote from: camarocane on February 26, 2016, 03:48:17 PM
Who really cares about the half cent sales tax for capital improvements? According to Mousa its not like they're going to invest any of those funds downtown until the pension issue is fixed anyway.
Maybe I'm a wild eyed optimist but why can't we do both at the same time? A small property tax increase to help fund the police/fire pension liability and a BJP2 half cent sales tax increase to fund infrastructure improvements--complete streets, park improvements, saving the Laura Street trio, finally finishing the Skyway, a streetcar starter line, fixing potholes, pulling Liberty Street out of the river, etc. Actual quality of life improvements for Jax residents might make the less glamorous pension fix a bit more palatable (a spoonful of sugar and all that).
And that's the real issue I have with Mayor Curry's plan--any progress for improving the city in general and downtown in particular is being held hostage in order to fund the pension liability because the word "tax" is now considered a filthy word and the phrase "I'ma raise taxes" is tantamount to political suicide and an abominable assault on the very gates of heaven itself.
But elections have consequences so here we are. Ultimately, we get the city we pay for.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 26, 2016, 04:25:00 PM
If he just raised the mullahs rate the next mayor could cancel it in 4 or 8 years.
:o
I think we really need to see the mayor's birth certificate now.
Was he actually born in Kenya? Is he a secret Muslim?!
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on February 26, 2016, 06:35:39 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 26, 2016, 04:25:00 PM
If he just raised the mullahs rate the next mayor could cancel it in 4 or 8 years.
:o
I think we really need to see the mayor's birth certificate now.
Was he actually born in Kenya? Is he a secret Muslim?!
Ha one of my better autocorrects. *millage
Rofl... ;D... fuk
ing autocorrect. 8)
If we allow our government to do this, there is no limit to what they will try next. This must be voted on by the people.
The pension fund is unplayable and must be changed. Police and fire employees deserve no better that the average citizen they are paid to protect. This is just unions acting badly with unfair collective bargaining with a stupid administration.
This same fight is being played out all over America. Time to remind our government they are working for US!
Quote from: Greg in Jax on February 27, 2016, 06:50:16 AM
If we allow our government to do this, there is no limit to what they will try next. This must be voted on by the people.
Voters will have a chance to ultimately decide. I wonder if there is a Plan B in the event a referendum fails?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 27, 2016, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: Greg in Jax on February 27, 2016, 06:50:16 AM
If we allow our government to do this, there is no limit to what they will try next. This must be voted on by the people.
Voters will have a chance to ultimately decide. I wonder if there is a Plan B in the event a referendum fails?
Bring in Pat and Vanna and Spin the Wheel of Entitlement.
Visit Jacksonville!
Quote from: Greg in Jax on February 27, 2016, 06:50:16 AM
If we allow our government to do this, there is no limit to what they will try next. This must be voted on by the people.
The pension fund is unplayable and must be changed. Police and fire employees deserve no better that the average citizen they are paid to protect. This is just unions acting badly with unfair collective bargaining with a stupid administration.
This same fight is being played out all over America. Time to remind our government they are working for US!
Fairly certain this is what they are trying to accomplish. Unfortunately, or fortunately (depending on you outlook) the city can't legally touch the pension for vested, and maybe even new employees. This deal would ultimately discontinue the pension for all incoming new employees. It would float the existing employees until the last pension is paid out. Don't you think, if the COJ could legally cancel the pension they would have already done so? Yes, the unions would have to agree individually but they won't. Why would they?
The city must for ethics sake, do what it promised in terms of pensions. However, I don't see any reason the shift to 401ks can't happen whether the referendum passes or not.
The pension bill easily passed through the Florida Senate today, 35-1. Now it goes on to Rick Scott to pass or veto; if it passes, the referendum will be held before too long. Possibly on the November ballot.
Is there a Plan B if the referendum fails?
nah...that's forward thinking.
too complex for COJ Peeps.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 09, 2016, 09:22:24 PM
Is there a Plan B if the referendum fails?
Yes. For one thing, the millage rate increase.
It amazes me how the uninformed think that unions hold companies, and in this case, the city at gunpoint and force their will. It's called collective bargaining for a reason. Pensions weren't established by the "evil" unions. It, along with pay, benefit packages, etc are all negotiated items that both parties have agreed upon. Employees are hired and offered these items as terms of their employment. And, while the city may (and in Jacksonvilles case, did) decide to take a "holiday" from paying their share of the cost because times were good and the market was booming, those same employees didn't have, or ask for that option. Their contributions continued being deducted, each and every payday, rain or shine. Is the current "plan" sustainable? Probably not. But to continually point the finger at the union workers for the citys inability to keep their financial house in order is simply ridiculous.
Quote from: Elwood on March 10, 2016, 02:53:25 AM
It amazes me how the uninformed think that unions hold companies, and in this case, the city at gunpoint and force their will. It's called collective bargaining for a reason. Pensions weren't established by the "evil" unions. It, along with pay, benefit packages, etc are all negotiated items that both parties have agreed upon. Employees are hired and offered these items as terms of their employment. And, while the city may (and in Jacksonvilles case, did) decide to take a "holiday" from paying their share of the cost because times were good and the market was booming, those same employees didn't have, or ask for that option. Their contributions continued being deducted, each and every payday, rain or shine. Is the current "plan" sustainable? Probably not. But to continually point the finger at the union workers for the citys inability to keep their financial house in order is simply ridiculous.
+1
The governor has signed off on the Jacksonville pension bill. Now it must go to referendum.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=547281