We were recently and rather incredulously asked by JTA committee members and one of our esteemed city councilmen; "How can you compare a streetcar to our First Coast Flyer?" The shame of the matter is more and more cities
'get it,' but preach and teach as we might, Jacksonville seems forever stuck in 1936, the year we finally junked the states largest streetcar system. Fort Lauderdale is already working on their new streetcar system and how better to ring in 2016 then this article out of Miami.
QuoteMIAMI BEACH
BY JOEY FLECHAS
jflechas@miamiherald.com
DECEMBER 23, 2015 12:36 PM
Miami Beach wants to expedite local streetcar, jump-start Bay Link to mainland
Miami Beach will solicit firms to design a streetcar system for South Beach
Bids will be based on unsolicited proposal submitted by French firm four months ago
City officials hope expedited plan will jump-start larger Bay Link project to connect island to mainland
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5634/24082907556_df71f45e19_z.jpg)
An early rendering of a proposed Bay Link streetcar along Washington Avenue in South Beach. A rendering of Bay Link in South Beach included in an Metropolitan Planning Organization presentation. An early rendering of a proposed Bay Link streetcar along Washington Avenue in South Beach.
An early rendering of a proposed Bay Link streetcar along Washington Avenue in South Beach. Miami Herald File
The last time Miami Beach desired a streetcar — in 1939 — the world was on the verge of war, Clark Gable romanced Vivien Leigh in Gone With the Wind and the city lost its 65-year-old founding father, Carl Fisher.
Now, three-quarters of a century after the last electric trolley traveled between the island and the mainland, the Beach is pushing forward with plans to create its own piece of Bay Link, a light-rail line that would efficiently transport passengers along the MacArthur Causeway across Biscayne Bay.
"It won't be cheap, but the problem isn't cheap," said Miami Beach City Manager Jimmy Morales, pointing to the Beach's constantly congested roads as a major headache for both residents and visitors of the resort city.
The Beach's portion of Bay Link is estimated to cost about $148 million, or about 28 percent of the expected $532 million price tag for the entire project.
The first Miami-area electric trolleys came early in the 20th century, with lines created through the 1920s in Miami, Coral Gables and Miami Beach. The first trolley to Miami Beach was completed after the 1926 hurricane, according to the Miami History blog. Coral Gables trolley service ended after the 1935 hurricane and service to and from the Beach ceased in 1939.
Historian Seth Bramson, who has written extensively on the histories of South Florida's electric railways, said the street car that ran across the MacArthur Causeway — then called the County Causeway — died along with many of the nation's electric rail systems after the automotive industry put pressure on politicians.
"One of the worst things we ever did in this town was end the electric railway connecting Miami with Miami Beach," he said. "That was so foolish, because had we kept it, we would've had a tourist attraction at the level of the San Francisco cable cars."
Now, with traffic-choked streets every day throughout Miami-Dade, talk of a new light-rail is heating up. Bay Link was first studied in 1988 and the rail was promised to Miami-Dade voters in 2002 when they approved a new half-penny transit sales tax.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5789/24000899332_e6cae82ede_z.jpg)
The Beach stoked the conversation in August when French rail company Alstom submitted an unsolicited bid to build a 14-mile transit system connecting downtown Miami to the Miami Beach Convention Center, along with five miles of stops through South Beach's entertainment district.
Alstom and its partners want to finance the construction tab upfront, and then operate it on an exclusive contract that could run for 35 years. Tax dollars ultimately would fund construction and operations.
Miami Beach will take the Alstom proposal to the marketplace in January, seeking other bidders for what would be one-third of the Bay Link project.
Beach commissioners unanimously approved going out to bid while continuing an environmental study required if the city wants to qualify for state funding. To move faster with the project, the commission also decided to forgo a longer environmental analysis that could make the light-rail eligible for federal dollars but would take years to complete.
"The commission decided we were not going to go through more elaborate National Environmental Policy Act analysis to qualify for federal funding, given how long that would take without guaranteeing we would get federal funding," Morales said.
Officials hope the expedited approach could mean breaking ground in about three years, while the rest of Bay Link gets hashed out.
On the mainland, the topic hasn't been broached as much at Miami City Hall as it has across the bay, where traffic was a major issue for voters in this year's Beach election.
Miami Beach Mayor Philip Levine this week touted the move in an email to residents:
"Last week, the Miami Beach Commission and I authorized the city to move ahead expeditiously to develop a light rail/wireless streetcar system that will allow residents, visitors and business owners to move around our city a lot more efficiently and reduce the amount of cars on our roads," he wrote.
Levine acknowledged that "the process going forward will not be easy and we will face many challenges along the way."
"From environmental studies, planning and engineering, to garnering community support and adequately funding this massive endeavor, our commitment to implementing effective public transportation solutions in our city is unwavering and we will get it done," the mayor wrote.
The Beach supports Bay Link and wants to move quickly on its own piece of it. A South Beach streetcar would likely have bearing on what happens with Bay Link: Civic and political leaders throughout Miami-Dade County have said they want one operator for the whole system.
Morales said the public bid will at least push the conversation about Bay Link forward. "We firmly believe if we move at all, if we get the process started, it jump-starts everything."
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article51285235.html#storylink=cpy
QuoteiTechPost
More than just technology news
Light Rail Project May Come Soon In Miami Beach
Paul Pajarillo First Posted: Dec 30, 2015 11:10 PM EST
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1475/23741405239_83ab13b0b9_z.jpg)
TagsMiami, trains, transportation, public transport, mass transport, transport system, Auto Tech, Society, Culture, Florida
People walk near the light rail in the centre of Jerusalem October 18, 2015. A surge in Palestinian attacks in Israel is raising concerns that the weakening economy could eventually be pushed into recession. Picture taken October 18, 2015.
People walk near the light rail in the centre of Jerusalem October 18, 2015. A surge in Palestinian attacks in Israel is raising concerns that the weakening economy could eventually be pushed into recession. Picture taken October 18, 2015. Credit:Reuters/Amir Cohen
Mayor Phillip Levine of Miami Beach has authorized the City Commission to develop a light rail system that will allow its citizens to move around the city efficiently. Another goal of this project is to reduce cars running around the city's roads.
After years of discussion regarding the pros and cons of improving Miami Beach's mass transit system, it seems that it is finally advancing with a proposed wireless streetcar light railway system. Once the system is built, it will provide mass transportation up and down South Beach Florida. More importantly, it will permit convenient transportation from the downtown area to the beach area via the MacArthur Causeway.
Long-time residents of Florida may still remember similar undertakings surrounding the 1980 Miami Metrorail Project. Regardless of the long wait of Florida residents, still there is reason for a celebration.
Mayor Phillip Levine of Miami Beach, FL, said in a press release that he is happy to report that after decades of discussions, the city government has finally taken the first step in making the dream of providing better public transport systems closer to reality. The mayor and the Miami Beach Commission authorized the city to design a wireless streetcar light rail system that will enable visitors, residents and businessmen to move around the city efficiently and at the same time reduce traffic caused by cars on the road.
Eventually, the system will be connecting the City of Miami to the City of Miami Beach. Commuting between the two cities will be a lot faster, safer and convenient. Phase one of the project will consist of a two-way connection to Washington Avenue and 5th Street, which will be known as the South Beach Component.
Phase two will be taking its place along 17th Street and Alton Road that complements Downtown Miami's cross-bay route. Future plans include routes along the Julia Tuttle Causeway, which will be connecting Midtown Miami and the beach area and the Miami International Airport.
Lol, someone actually thought a bus was better than a streetcar? Who?
More then one someone and I believe several have expressed the same thing to Lakelander. However recklessly naming names and embarrassing people would severely hamper our ability to continue consulting with them.
The real shame of it is that even JTA in the recent Skyway decisions envisions a mass transit system built on their pseudo-BRT system and all other transit (even if we add rail) will be designed to feed into this 'mainline' of buses. So in other words and rather typically, 100% backwards from standard practice the world over where buses feed into rail.
I've come across several people who wonder if investing in transit is worth it at all. For some strange reason, many believe self-driving vehicles will eliminate the need for transit.
What good will Miami streetcars be if as Stephen says, it will be underwater in 25 years?
My guess is they don't believe they'll be underwater in 25 years.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 01, 2016, 05:37:06 PM
I've come across several people who wonder if investing in transit is worth it at all. For some strange reason, many believe self-driving vehicles will eliminate the need for transit.
I have also experienced the same discussion with people. I'm still not convinced of the full impact self-driving cars will have, but I think that they have rightfully entered the discourse regarding transportation. Their implementation will have some kind of distributive effect to the status quo. My belief is that elevated and submerged services will still hold some value. I think our minds haven't quite wrapped around the impending impact to surface transportation. When we are talking about these multi-million dollar projects it should be considered.
I work in transportation planning industry and I'm really not convinced that self driving cars will have any type of significant impact on mass transit. Most of these discussions completely overlook the economics and demographics of core transit users. Many transit users can't afford to have a regular car. Now we're going to expect them to own a self driving car or.....Uber themselves to and from work, school, etc. on a regular basis? Then, how will these vehicles be integrated with existing vehicles, trucks, motorcycles, pedestrians, cyclists, etc? Not much really changes unless it's wholesale integration. In the event that day eventually comes, how we build/design roads and parking lots will be impacted before mass transit would, IMO.
Self-driving buses are being tested in Greece and Switzerland:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a226e2e4a4314eebbfb7603015ecd975/greek-town-glimpses-mass-transit-future-driverless-buses (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a226e2e4a4314eebbfb7603015ecd975/greek-town-glimpses-mass-transit-future-driverless-buses)
https://bestmile.com/2015/11/04/sion/ (https://bestmile.com/2015/11/04/sion/)
Just wondering. Does the skyway count as a self-driving train?
When looking through the lens of social stratification I can see how it would appear that not all will have access to a new technology. The strongest rebuttal I can think of is the impact of mobile telecommunications. It still blows my mind when a homeless person pulls out a phone nicer than mine. Not to mention the massive impact mobile phones have had on the developing world. I don't know if those consequences were being foreseen at the R&D phase. Also, I believe a big part of the transition is the decoupling of car as a possession. I could imagine legislation killing it, but what is being proposed is a paradigm shift.
True but the price points between the two are pretty significant. Cars have been around for over a century now and a significant portion of transit users still can't afford them.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 03, 2016, 10:54:07 AM
True but the price points between the two are pretty significant. Cars have been around for over a century now and a significant portion of transit users still can't afford them.
The price point between mass transit fares and a lower-cost uber (due to lack of driver) would be very marginal. Certainly on longer distances where mass transit might have an advantage, there is also the possibility of sharing rides which would potentially make it cheaper than typical mass transit. The issue would be what to do with govt transit systems if less and less riders are using them (also because of private mass transit)...we'll have to revisit this discussion in 10 years.
What's marginal and what type of timeline are you envisioning for revolutionary change? 10, 20, 50 years?
Marginal meaning a few bucks. It absolutely should be far less than owning a car and certainly accessible to folks who can't afford a car. As for a timeline, I am far more conservative than many...it's hard to imagine revolutionary change until it actually happens. I'd take a wild guess at 20 years for mainstream acceptance in major markets. Google and uber are shooting for more like a 5-10 year time frame.
$2.50 gets you across town in most cities using mass transit. Then there's reduced fares for off-peak, seniors and children typically. From my understanding, Uber sort of works like FDOT's managed lanes concept. Fares can rise, depending on demand. It's really hard for me to understand how a private entity could make money charging $2.50 for cross town travel. At this point, I can see the self driving vehicles as another mobility option for those who can afford or prefer them. However, a wholesale replacement for mass transit? Not anytime soon.
Since MIA isn't "taking the mandatory steps against climate change" (whatever in the hell those steps are...) that means that they are too conservative, amirite??
I don't know the details of what Miami is doing but they do have a plan. Investing in transit is a part of it:
http://www.miamidade.gov/greenprint/pdf/climate_action_plan.pdf
I think the self driving vehicles won't make a dent in the need for mass transit for the reasons Lake has explained. I can actually remember when AC in a car was a pretty big deal, few afforded that luxury. Today you wouldn't think of driving a car in Florida without AC. The difference is the guy that didn't own a car in 1955, is the guy that doesn't own one in 2016, 2020, or 2050. Self driving cars will not solve poverty.
They will assist with traffic control potentially saving the cities $$billions on lights, ramps and upgraded intersections but that technology change is likely to leave a new group of unemployed and a new group of employed, just as the telephone switchboard to digital was a sea change.
The key to this is mass transit is still going to be a need, in fact perhaps more of a need as self driving cars might be the first step toward eventual corporate or even state ownership of all rides. When that comes, a bus with 50 passengers and one driver and a streetcar with 200 passengers and one operator are going to be economics that Jacksonville should have looked at back in 2016.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 04, 2016, 12:25:37 AM
$2.50 gets you across town in most cities using mass transit. Then there's reduced fares for off-peak, seniors and children typically. From my understanding, Uber sort of works like FDOT's managed lanes concept. Fares can rise, depending on demand. It's really hard for me to understand how a private entity could make money charging $2.50 for cross town travel. At this point, I can see the self driving vehicles as another mobility option for those who can afford or prefer them. However, a wholesale replacement for mass transit? Not anytime soon.
I'm not the flag bearer for self-driving cars. Aside from having friends who are passionate about it and hearing from real estate folks in bigger cities who are already taking a look at how this might shape infrastructure, I am not well-informed nor do I care enough to give a rallying cry lol. Re: pricing, there's no reason fares wouldnt be cut in half. And if you move away from on-demand to more planned routes that could dip even further. So for a few bucks more you ride in a personal vehicle from point-to-point...certainly within the realm of possibility that it steals significant ridership from transit. Also, if all choice riders (and some non) were to defect from public transit then where does that leave those systems? It's also plausible govts would choose to subsidize ride share instead of traditional mass transit.
Anyway, this is just theoretical for now. I agree with Lake that this more than likely wouldn't be a wholesale replacement for mass transit, especially not anytime soon. If it's 20 years out from being widely accepted in major cities (my wild guess) then it's 50 years out from entirely replacing mass transit, if ever. Certainly at the moment the ride sharing companies are working towards being a complementary piece (first mile/last mile), so it's entirely possible they grow in that manner and become reliant upon each other. If anything, privatized transit companies are positioning to be the competition right now.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 04, 2016, 10:36:57 AM
I think the self driving vehicles won't make a dent in the need for mass transit for the reasons Lake has explained. I can actually remember when AC in a car was a pretty big deal, few afforded that luxury. Today you wouldn't think of driving a car in Florida without AC. The difference is the guy that didn't own a car in 1955, is the guy that doesn't own one in 2016, 2020, or 2050. Self driving cars will not solve poverty.
You're totally missing the point Ock. The idea is that these people aren't owning cars, they're just riding in them. The cost of one car would be shared by 50 other people who are also just riding in them. You could almost look at it like you're making cars available to many people who wouldn't normally have that access.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 04, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
I'm not the flag bearer for self-driving cars. Aside from having friends who are passionate about it and hearing from real estate folks in bigger cities who are already taking a look at how this might shape infrastructure, I am not well-informed nor do I care enough to give a rallying cry lol. Re: pricing, there's no reason fares wouldnt be cut in half. And if you move away from on-demand to more planned routes that could dip even further. So for a few bucks more you ride in a personal vehicle from point-to-point...certainly within the realm of possibility that it steals significant ridership from transit. Also, if all choice riders (and some non) were to defect from public transit then where does that leave those systems? It's also plausible govts would choose to subsidize ride share instead of traditional mass transit.
Anyway, this is just theoretical for now. I agree with Lake that this more than likely wouldn't be a wholesale replacement for mass transit, especially not anytime soon. If it's 20 years out from being widely accepted in major cities (my wild guess) then it's 50 years out from entirely replacing mass transit, if ever. Certainly at the moment the ride sharing companies are working towards being a complementary piece (first mile/last mile), so it's entirely possible they grow in that manner and become reliant upon each other. If anything, privatized transit companies are positioning to be the competition right now.
Yeah, I've heard a lot from passionate advocates (maglev and PRT advocates too) over the years as well. I won't lose much sleep but I have started questioning advocates on the basic economics when the subject is brought up. At worst, it helps advocates focus on demographics outside of the groups they are accustomed too. Right now, the typical response I tend to get involves a ton of "ifs" that need to fall in place.
It sort of reminds me of the time we met with the JEDC and the amount of "ifs" in their plan to redevelop the land around the Main Street pocket park. If the city would build the park and if a group built a hotel next door, the land values would rise and Salvation Army would want to sell their property. If Salvation Army sold their land, the two additional blocks could be redeveloped. A decade later, all we have to show for that plan is a park filled with homeless people, next to Salvation Army and parking lots. Basically, exactly what we predicted years ago.
Anyway, back to the self driving cars. Without 100% enforcement of the general population to convert, IMO at best, they'll become another mobility option as opposed to a complete replacement of another mode like public transit.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 04, 2016, 01:57:24 PM
Anyway, back to the self driving cars. Without 100% enforcement of the general population to convert, IMO at best, they'll become another mobility option as opposed to a complete replacement of another mode like public transit.
Right. Unlike you I actually think the economic and social theory makes sense and would absolutely work on paper, however I have no clue if the technology itself can perform as hoped and change our lifestyle patterns in such a short amount of time. It's that side that we both agree is a big IF.
The self driving cars will change a lot. I think most people see it as especially helping create a flow of traffic on limited access highways devoid of accidents and the human error that causes true congestion. Likewise, parking will not be as much of an issue hypothetically in dense areas since your car can drop you and and go back home or go a longer distance to park. That will hopefully help city centers develop properly without need of additional parking.
Also, it is hard to compare Miami Beach where it costs $20-30 a day to park to Jacksonville and is packed with people on the street 24/7. I think a streetcar there is legitimately needed due to the high density, tourists, and awful traffic. The perks of a street car for Jacksonville would be the TOD we would hope for along with the connection of the historic neighborhoods to alleviate traffic/parking in those particular areas.
Even cars didn't change the game overnight, it took decades. Cars became widely available in the first decade of the 1900s, but it wasn't until the 20s and 30s that they became ubiquitous. It took even longer for North America to become mainly "autocentric".
As late as the 1920s, Jacksonville's auto-centric San Jose development failed in large part because it was so far from town (a whopping 5 miles) and had no streetcar connections or shops of its own. Suburban sprawl did come, but it was decades after cars entered the picture. Self-driving cars will be amazing, but the changes they'll bring to our infrastructure will be a long time coming, and there will probably always be a demand and need for mass transit.
^Agreed. Unless the feds force some transition goals, it will be a long process. The first industry it will touch is the taxi/Uber/Lyft industry. One way or another, a street car that connects our historic neighborhoods will be a huge asset to the community for many many decades.
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 04, 2016, 04:25:32 PM
The self driving cars will change a lot. I think most people see it as especially helping create a flow of traffic on limited access highways devoid of accidents and the human error that causes true congestion.
This only works if there's 100% self driving vehicles and we don't allow human driven cars, buses, trucks, bicycles, motorcycles on the road. How long that takes is anyone's guess. However, this theory is challenged in the scenario of self driving vehicles replacing public transit. One can only imagine the congestion in a place like NYC, Boston or Philly where 30 to 60% of commuters are currently using some form of public transit. Whatever capacity you'd free up on already congested streets, would quickly disappear with a far less efficient way of moving large crowds in dense cities.
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 04, 2016, 04:47:46 PM
^Agreed. Unless the feds force some transition goals, it will be a long process. The first industry it will touch is the taxi/Uber/Lyft industry. One way or another, a street car that connects our historic neighborhoods will be a huge asset to the community for many many decades.
This is about the only way to have wholesale change, sooner rather than later.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 04, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 04, 2016, 10:36:57 AM
I think the self driving vehicles won't make a dent in the need for mass transit for the reasons Lake has explained. I can actually remember when AC in a car was a pretty big deal, few afforded that luxury. Today you wouldn't think of driving a car in Florida without AC. The difference is the guy that didn't own a car in 1955, is the guy that doesn't own one in 2016, 2020, or 2050. Self driving cars will not solve poverty.
You're totally missing the point Ock. The idea is that these people aren't owning cars, they're just riding in them. The cost of one car would be shared by 50 other people who are also just riding in them. You could almost look at it like you're making cars available to many people who wouldn't normally have that access.
Not missing the point, but I am questioning how many time-share vacation condo's you've bought into? As I said unless the State steps in, there goes your joint ownership. First time little Sue falls off her hover board and the next available car in the share pool is 5 hours out, Sue's mom will be looking for the nearest transit stop.
These self-driving cars are still going to use 4 wheels on a road right - so someone explain to me again what transit problem self-driving cars are going to solve.