Tim Leiweke of Miami Beckham United gave a presentation on what the group is planning for a new soccer stadium.
It will be built without parking garages. The focus is on being pedestrian and mass transit friendly, and they count almost 7,000 spaces already in the area.
Cost is expected to be about $220 million. A new financial backer will be announced soon.
There will be about 25,000 seats.
Seats will be covered by a roof. They want the field itself to be under open air for a quality natural turf.
The stadium will be LEED certified, and the focus is on making it as environmentally friendly as possible.
They will be assessed and pay property taxes. No government or CRA subsidies whatsoever.
There won't be a retail or restaurant component in the stadium. They want area shopping and retail to thrive, and not be contained within the stadium.
(http://12elfthman.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/beckham-miami-stadium-soccer-jpeg-0d612.jpg)
http://www.thenextmiami.com/beckhams-220-million-stadium-will-have-25000-covered-seats/
Not surprising. Miami has made it abundantly clear that it doesn't particularly care if they get a soccer stadium (or MLS team), and for whatever reason Beckham and MLS really, really want to be in Miami. This is their fourth location at least, and it's the first time they're proposing doing it without the city, and paying taxes. We'll see if the city lets them get away with the no parking thing, it sounds nice, but it's more likely an attempt to get out of building garages.
People are not going to *walk* from those area parking spots to that stadium. They just aren't. I'm not sure this thing gets done.
Khan has revived to old shipyards plan and moved it to MIA? Oh wait...
Quote from: I-10east on December 21, 2015, 09:47:35 PM
Khan has revived to old shipyards plan and moved it to MIA? Oh wait...
You knew it wasn't Khan as soon as you saw this: "They will be assessed and pay property taxes. No government or CRA subsidies whatsoever."
Quote from: finehoe on December 22, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: I-10east on December 21, 2015, 09:47:35 PM
Khan has revived to old shipyards plan and moved it to MIA? Oh wait...
You knew it wasn't Khan as soon as you saw this: "They will be assessed and pay property taxes. No government or CRA subsidies whatsoever."
^Ha!
You also know it's not Khan considering that they're dumping a whole lot of their own money into an unproven project that no one really seems to want.
The Miami area has had a number of pro soccer teams that have given comparatively limited support (including one of the only two MLS teams to truly fail), it has plenty of sports stadiums that could be rented or refurbished for a lot cheaper than $220 million, and a serious case of stadium fatigue after Marlins Park. This is Beckham's fourth attempt to build a stadium in urban Miami (the first three did ask for millions in taxpayer money), which isn't a good sign. Maybe he and MLS really see some potential that no one else does, or maybe they've just painted themselves into a corner on opening up in Miami, but compared to other successful MLS expansions in the last few years, this one is really very strange.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 23, 2015, 10:57:44 AM
You also know it's not Khan considering that they're dumping a whole lot of their own money into an unproven project that no one really seems to want.
The Miami area has had a number of pro soccer teams that have given comparatively limited support (including one of the only two MLS teams to truly fail), it has plenty of sports stadiums that could be rented or refurbished for a lot cheaper than $220 million, and a serious case of stadium fatigue after Marlins Park. This is Beckham's fourth attempt to build a stadium in urban Miami (the first three did ask for millions in taxpayer money), which isn't a good sign. Maybe he and MLS really see some potential that no one else does, or maybe they've just painted themselves into a corner on opening up in Miami, but compared to other successful MLS expansions in the last few years, this one is really very strange.
It could fail - and might. But I reckon Beckham is banking on soccer's growth in popularity in recent years as well as the local hispanic population and whatever value his name adds to the project.
I'm sure he's also taken the relative success of the Fort Lauderdale Strikers into account (they average over 5000 per game).
You never know what will happen and this could be a major flop - but the market for soccer in South Florida (and in the USA in general) has grown since the days of the Miami Fusion.
Hispanics haven't really taken to MLS though. They'd rather watch the Mexican league on the TV.
Who cares?!
Quote from: fsquid on December 23, 2015, 01:33:46 PM
Hispanics haven't really taken to MLS though. They'd rather watch the Mexican league on the TV.
That's not entirely true. I believe Houston and Dallas both have Latino supporters' groups, for example. And nothing stops people from watching multiple teams or leagues. I personally think it's completely stupid, but I know a number of people who have numerous favorite teams across multiple leagues.
And there is a difference between watching Mexican soccer on TV and sitting in a stadium watching live soccer - and maybe even seeing some of your favorite, slightly over-the-hill soccer stars enjoying themselves in their twilight years.
Quote from: Adam White on December 23, 2015, 01:27:09 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 23, 2015, 10:57:44 AM
You also know it's not Khan considering that they're dumping a whole lot of their own money into an unproven project that no one really seems to want.
The Miami area has had a number of pro soccer teams that have given comparatively limited support (including one of the only two MLS teams to truly fail), it has plenty of sports stadiums that could be rented or refurbished for a lot cheaper than $220 million, and a serious case of stadium fatigue after Marlins Park. This is Beckham's fourth attempt to build a stadium in urban Miami (the first three did ask for millions in taxpayer money), which isn't a good sign. Maybe he and MLS really see some potential that no one else does, or maybe they've just painted themselves into a corner on opening up in Miami, but compared to other successful MLS expansions in the last few years, this one is really very strange.
It could fail - and might. But I reckon Beckham is banking on soccer's growth in popularity in recent years as well as the local hispanic population and whatever value his name adds to the project.
I'm sure he's also taken the relative success of the Fort Lauderdale Strikers into account (they average over 5000 per game).
You never know what will happen and this could be a major flop - but the market for soccer in South Florida (and in the USA in general) has grown since the days of the Miami Fusion.
For its size and reputation as a major metro, the Miami area has been a pretty weak sports market. That's not a knock on them, it's because there's a million things to do on any given day, and the region attracts residents from the world over. But it's been an especially weak market for soccer. On top of the Fusion failing, there have been several others fail or have weak performance. The Ft. Lauderdale Strikers are usually in the bottom of the NASL in attendance (and there's about to be another NASL team in Miami-Dade). I think the Strikers attendance was up this year, but it was a year where teams in much smaller markets were far more successful (Sacramento, Indianapolis, Jacksonville and San Antonio, in particular).
I highly suspect that the deal Beckham and MLS have with each other is a much bigger driving force in the decision than the suitability of Miami (especially downtown Miami) as a location for soccer. Beckham can get his own MLS team for cheap, but only if he puts it in a soccer-specific stadium in urban Miami. And MLS's best hope of getting into Miami is Beckham. That said, if they can finally get it off the ground, I expect they'll be ok, but I don't know that whatever success they have will cover the costs of starting up.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 23, 2015, 03:07:04 PM
Quote from: Adam White on December 23, 2015, 01:27:09 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 23, 2015, 10:57:44 AM
You also know it's not Khan considering that they're dumping a whole lot of their own money into an unproven project that no one really seems to want.
The Miami area has had a number of pro soccer teams that have given comparatively limited support (including one of the only two MLS teams to truly fail), it has plenty of sports stadiums that could be rented or refurbished for a lot cheaper than $220 million, and a serious case of stadium fatigue after Marlins Park. This is Beckham's fourth attempt to build a stadium in urban Miami (the first three did ask for millions in taxpayer money), which isn't a good sign. Maybe he and MLS really see some potential that no one else does, or maybe they've just painted themselves into a corner on opening up in Miami, but compared to other successful MLS expansions in the last few years, this one is really very strange.
It could fail - and might. But I reckon Beckham is banking on soccer's growth in popularity in recent years as well as the local hispanic population and whatever value his name adds to the project.
I'm sure he's also taken the relative success of the Fort Lauderdale Strikers into account (they average over 5000 per game).
You never know what will happen and this could be a major flop - but the market for soccer in South Florida (and in the USA in general) has grown since the days of the Miami Fusion.
For its size and reputation as a major metro, the Miami area has been a pretty weak sports market. That's not a knock on them, it's because there's a million things to do on any given day, and the region attracts residents from the world over. But it's been an especially weak market for soccer. On top of the Fusion failing, there have been several others fail or have weak performance. The Ft. Lauderdale Strikers are usually in the bottom of the NASL in attendance (and there's about to be another NASL team in Miami-Dade). I think the Strikers attendance was up this year, but it was a year where teams in much smaller markets were far more successful (Sacramento, Indianapolis, Jacksonville and San Antonio, in particular).
I highly suspect that the deal Beckham and MLS have with each other is a much bigger driving force in the decision than the suitability of Miami (especially downtown Miami) as a location for soccer. Beckham can get his own MLS team for cheap, but only if he puts it in a soccer-specific stadium in urban Miami. And MLS's best hope of getting into Miami is Beckham. That said, if they can finally get it off the ground, I expect they'll be ok, but I don't know that whatever success they have will cover the costs of starting up.
I think it's a gamble - and he's gambling on the potential Miami has - or should have - more than on its track record. I hope he does well. It would be great to see the MLS do well.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 23, 2015, 10:57:44 AM
The Miami area has had a number of pro soccer teams that have given comparatively limited support (including one of the only two MLS teams to truly fail),
to be fair, the south Florida soccer market 20 years ago was pretty much in south and central Miami....and the team played at Lockhart Stadium (a serious dump) in northwest Ft. Lauderdale
The problem is the location. People get this crazy idea that when Latin Americans get to the States they bring their attendance habits with them.
They don't.
Instead, they logically adopt American habits and merge them into their pre-exisiting expectations. South Florida people are *not* going to walk from those distant parking locations over to that stadium. They just aren't going to do it; too scared (like so many in Jax freaked out about multiple locations in and around downtown) and, in addition, too acculturated to American expectations.
But good luck to them. I've talked with Mike Holloway, national championship winning head track coach at UF, and a premier MLS soccer stadium could also double as a premier track facility in Florida (we have none; Percy Beard Track/Pressly Stadium is good and so is the track at UNF but certainly not of the caliber of Hayward Field in Oregon or, especially, Franklin Field in Philadelphia). If anyone has ever watched the Penn Relays, you know a premier track stadium in Miami could make for some really special track and field moments with American track fans mixed in with all of those crazy Jamaicans & other West Indians cheering on their countrymen.
I had hoped the Jaguars Flex Field might have a premier track around it with seating for 8 to 10,000 folks (high school football games could have been held there, etc.); truly would have been very interesting but I doubt that it happens like that.
Anyway, as expressed earlier, good luck to Beckham. He's going to need it.
Quote from: RattlerGator on December 24, 2015, 08:17:32 AM
The problem is the location. People get this crazy idea that when Latin Americans get to the States they bring their attendance habits with them.
They don't.
Instead, they logically adopt American habits and merge them into their pre-exisiting expectations. South Florida people are *not* going to walk from those distant parking locations over to that stadium. They just aren't going to do it; too scared (like so many in Jax freaked out about multiple locations in and around downtown) and, in addition, too acculturated to American expectations.
So, you're saying absolutely no one is going to walk to the stadium (latinos or otherwise)?
I'm sure this obviously has no impact to the Miami stadium deal, but since I'm the resident rugby fanboy I'll mention that preliminary discussions for a professional rugby sevens league in the US have received with MLS buy-in, as any potential partnership would utilize many of the MLS stadiums around the country. It's still a very longshot and risky proposition, but if there ever were a chance to see pro rugby in the US in the next twenty years it will be with Sevens (imo easily the most viewable and mainstream accessible version) and come out of any momentum generated from next year's Olympics. Now we just need the USA to make a cinderella run to the gold medal.
Quote from: Adam White on December 24, 2015, 10:31:51 AM
So, you're saying absolutely no one is going to walk to the stadium (latinos or otherwise)?
Clearly that's not what I'm saying. What I *am* saying is there will likely not be enough (Latinos or otherwise) walkers through a section of town many think sketchy to make that stadium venture successful.
All of that assumes the city lets them build the stadium withou parking to begin with. I'm pretty skeptical.
Quote from: RattlerGator on December 25, 2015, 08:28:02 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 24, 2015, 10:31:51 AM
So, you're saying absolutely no one is going to walk to the stadium (latinos or otherwise)?
Clearly that's not what I'm saying. What I *am* saying is there will likely not be enough (Latinos or otherwise) walkers through a section of town many think sketchy to make that stadium venture successful.
It seems to be part of a larger project. So although it may suffer at first, I wouldn't be surprised if people do take public transport to get to it. Americans are no different from anyone else, in that respect. My only real concern is they claim there are 7000 spaces in the area - is this true and how useable are these spaces (like, are they scattered about where people will have to hunt and will they be used up by other people visiting for other, non-soccer, reasons)?
Quote from: Adam White on December 25, 2015, 09:31:16 AM
[A]lthough it may suffer at first, I wouldn't be surprised if people do take public transport to get to it. Americans are no different from anyone else, in that respect.
Yes, Adam, yes we are.
Very different in that respect, especially in the Sun Belt.
Quote from: RattlerGator on December 27, 2015, 10:58:41 PM
Quote from: Adam White on December 25, 2015, 09:31:16 AM
[A]lthough it may suffer at first, I wouldn't be surprised if people do take public transport to get to it. Americans are no different from anyone else, in that respect.
Yes, Adam, yes we are. Very different in that respect, especially in the Sun Belt.
I disagree. It's down to incentives. People use MARTA in Atlanta, which is easily as hot (or hotter) than Miami in the summer. People will use public transport when the benefits or positives outweigh the percieved negatives. This idea that Americans are somehow different than people all over the rest of the world is crazy.
Read Freakonomics sometime.
I think people would walk to it. I don't believe that 19,000 people (MLS average attendance) will walk to it 17+ times a year. But then I have a hard time imagining the city letting them build this stadium with no parking.
I also don't know where the idea that Hispanics don't follow MLS comes from. It's usually reported that 34% of MLS's audience is Hispanic, which is double the general Hispanic population, and much higher than any other North American sports league. However, it *is* true that teams can't just count on the Hispanic audience carrying them. MLS has no serious TV audience and succeeds through people attending the games. The power demographic for them is young male professionals, largely white, who buy tickets. That group of fans love their soccer-specific stadiums in urban areas. Urban SLS's are credited with driving MLS's growth, which is presumably why MLS is so insistent on Beckham finding an urban stadium in Miami, despite the fact that the city couldn't be less supportive.
But the limitations of soccer-specific stadiums are coming to light. The most successful MLS team is the Seattle Sounders, who play in the Seahawks football stadium and draw more 40,000+ fans per game - more than double the league average. In the minor leagues, Indianapolis plays on a college campus, Jacksonville plays at the baseball field, and Minnesota plays way out in the suburbs, and they all draw 8,000+ per game. Clearly the stadiums aren't setting them back. Some other MLS teams would likely see higher attendances like Seattle, but they're limited by the size of their soccer stadiums. Orlando is probably going to face this problem: in the Citrus Bowl they average 32,000 fans a game, but they're building a soccer stadium nearby that will only hold 25,000.
As I said before, I think MLS and Beckham have gotten each other into a corner on this Miami deal. Beckham knows MLS won't give him a team without a soccer-specific stadium in urban Miami, and MLS knows Beckham is the only one who'd put that kind of money into such an onerous project. Meanwhile, they're missing other opportunities (and cities) that would be surefire.
I still do not understand why they need a brand new soccer stadium in Orlando when they literally have a brand new lower bowl of the Citrus Bowl that the city and county spent $210 million on and especially when their attendance is 32,000 a game. Just put some cool tarps on the upper deck and call it a day.
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 28, 2015, 01:34:26 PM
I still do not understand why they need a brand new soccer stadium in Orlando when they literally have a brand new lower bowl of the Citrus Bowl that the city and county spent $210 million on and especially when their attendance is 32,000 a game. Just put some cool tarps on the upper deck and call it a day.
Because MLS requires new franchises to build a soccer-specific stadium.
^^^+100.
The Citrus Bowl is at around 60,000, and a typical MLS stadium is around 20,000. Quite a differing capacity contrast.
Quote from: I-10east on December 29, 2015, 06:11:39 AM
^^^+100.
The Citrus Bowl is at around 60,000, and a typical MLS stadium is around 20,000. Quite a differing capacity contrast.
I think a big part of the push for soccer-specific stadiums is that it gives a better gameday experience to the fans. Not only will it have fewer empty seats, but the stands tend to be closer to the field. In a football stadium, you'd be sitting in a mostly-empty stadium with more grass between you and the players. And the smaller size means a better atmosphere (songs, noise, etc).
Apparently MLS feels part of its more recent success can be attributed to soccer-specific stadiums. Although I am not 100% certain that building one is a strict requirement of all new franchisees, I am sure it helps their bid.
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Have you watched an Orlando City game? The atmosphere is hardly suffering.
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Orlando City Soccer Club drew 32,000 a game last year in the Citrus Bowl. It's crazy! And yet MLS requires them to build a soccer-specific stadium that will only hold 25,000. Even if it's a better game-day experience, it will serve fewer people than they draw already. And that's beside the fact that both the team and the taxpayers of Orlando have to spend millions on this stadium instead of other things. Orlando isn't the only market like this.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Orlando City Soccer Club drew 32,000 a game last year in the Citrus Bowl. It's crazy! And yet MLS requires them to build a soccer-specific stadium that will only hold 25,000. Even if it's a better game-day experience, it will serve fewer people than they draw already. And that's beside the fact that both the team and the taxpayers of Orlando have to spend millions on this stadium instead of other things. Orlando isn't the only market like this.
Orlando and Seattle draw more than any of the other teams. Most draw somewhere between 15 - 20 thousand per match. It seems odd build a stadium with 25 thousand seats on a whim - so I hope that the number they chose was based on sound research. I assumed that the Orlando attendance numbers were a) skewed based on one massive match (62k vs NYC) and b) higher due to it being the first season. Maybe they expect attendance to decrease?
It's close to impossibe to get tickets for many of the better English soccer teams. At least when they are playing a decent opponent. I guess it's better to be sold out and leave people wanting than to make space for everyone and end up looking like you're the Italian league or something.
Ideally, it will fill most of the way up for all their matches. But there is a real possibility that it will either be sold out or be half-empty. I guess if it's half-empty, it will be slightly less depressing than a half-empty football stadium. If it's sold out, I guess they can have the city pony up the money to redevelop the stadium. Or maybe play in the Citrus Bowl when they need to. I don't know.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 29, 2015, 10:55:43 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Have you watched an Orlando City game? The atmosphere is hardly suffering.
No, I haven't. But I wouldn't get an understanding of the atmosphere by watching it on television anyway.
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 11:29:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Orlando City Soccer Club drew 32,000 a game last year in the Citrus Bowl. It's crazy! And yet MLS requires them to build a soccer-specific stadium that will only hold 25,000. Even if it's a better game-day experience, it will serve fewer people than they draw already. And that's beside the fact that both the team and the taxpayers of Orlando have to spend millions on this stadium instead of other things. Orlando isn't the only market like this.
Orlando and Seattle draw more than any of the other teams. Most draw somewhere between 15 - 20 thousand per match. It seems odd build a stadium with 25 thousand seats on a whim - so I hope that the number they chose was based on sound research. I assumed that the Orlando attendance numbers were a) skewed based on one massive match (62k vs NYC) and b) higher due to it being the first season. Maybe they expect attendance to decrease?
It's close to impossibe to get tickets for many of the better English soccer teams. At least when they are playing a decent opponent. I guess it's better to be sold out and leave people wanting than to make space for everyone and end up looking like you're the Italian league or something.
Ideally, it will fill most of the way up for all their matches. But there is a real possibility that it will either be sold out or be half-empty. I guess if it's half-empty, it will be slightly less depressing than a half-empty football stadium. If it's sold out, I guess they can have the city pony up the money to redevelop the stadium. Or maybe play in the Citrus Bowl when they need to. I don't know.
I guess my point is that the "one size fits all" approach of insisting on SLS's, generally in urban areas, doesn't always work, and in fact can put artificial limits on some of the teams. Orlando, it seems, is one of those examples. Especially given that soccer continues to grow in the US.
As it relates to Miami, it seems the one size fits all approach is also causing their current struggle just to get something off the ground. They could have rented a football stadium, or built an SLS outside of Miami, or let Beckham take a crack at a different market that might actually be supportive. Many of the most successful soccer teams aren't in places that work the best in other sports.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 02:05:52 PM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 11:29:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Orlando City Soccer Club drew 32,000 a game last year in the Citrus Bowl. It's crazy! And yet MLS requires them to build a soccer-specific stadium that will only hold 25,000. Even if it's a better game-day experience, it will serve fewer people than they draw already. And that's beside the fact that both the team and the taxpayers of Orlando have to spend millions on this stadium instead of other things. Orlando isn't the only market like this.
Orlando and Seattle draw more than any of the other teams. Most draw somewhere between 15 - 20 thousand per match. It seems odd build a stadium with 25 thousand seats on a whim - so I hope that the number they chose was based on sound research. I assumed that the Orlando attendance numbers were a) skewed based on one massive match (62k vs NYC) and b) higher due to it being the first season. Maybe they expect attendance to decrease?
It's close to impossibe to get tickets for many of the better English soccer teams. At least when they are playing a decent opponent. I guess it's better to be sold out and leave people wanting than to make space for everyone and end up looking like you're the Italian league or something.
Ideally, it will fill most of the way up for all their matches. But there is a real possibility that it will either be sold out or be half-empty. I guess if it's half-empty, it will be slightly less depressing than a half-empty football stadium. If it's sold out, I guess they can have the city pony up the money to redevelop the stadium. Or maybe play in the Citrus Bowl when they need to. I don't know.
I guess my point is that the "one size fits all" approach of insisting on SLS's, generally in urban areas, doesn't always work, and in fact can put artificial limits on some of the teams. Orlando, it seems, is one of those examples. Especially given that soccer continues to grow in the US.
As it relates to Miami, it seems the one size fits all approach is also causing their current struggle just to get something off the ground. They could have rented a football stadium, or built an SLS outside of Miami, or let Beckham take a crack at a different market that might actually be supportive. Many of the most successful soccer teams aren't in places that work the best in other sports.
I was of the impression that Beckham wanted Miami. I could be wrong.
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 02:05:52 PM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 11:29:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Orlando City Soccer Club drew 32,000 a game last year in the Citrus Bowl. It's crazy! And yet MLS requires them to build a soccer-specific stadium that will only hold 25,000. Even if it's a better game-day experience, it will serve fewer people than they draw already. And that's beside the fact that both the team and the taxpayers of Orlando have to spend millions on this stadium instead of other things. Orlando isn't the only market like this.
Orlando and Seattle draw more than any of the other teams. Most draw somewhere between 15 - 20 thousand per match. It seems odd build a stadium with 25 thousand seats on a whim - so I hope that the number they chose was based on sound research. I assumed that the Orlando attendance numbers were a) skewed based on one massive match (62k vs NYC) and b) higher due to it being the first season. Maybe they expect attendance to decrease?
It's close to impossibe to get tickets for many of the better English soccer teams. At least when they are playing a decent opponent. I guess it's better to be sold out and leave people wanting than to make space for everyone and end up looking like you're the Italian league or something.
Ideally, it will fill most of the way up for all their matches. But there is a real possibility that it will either be sold out or be half-empty. I guess if it's half-empty, it will be slightly less depressing than a half-empty football stadium. If it's sold out, I guess they can have the city pony up the money to redevelop the stadium. Or maybe play in the Citrus Bowl when they need to. I don't know.
I guess my point is that the "one size fits all" approach of insisting on SLS's, generally in urban areas, doesn't always work, and in fact can put artificial limits on some of the teams. Orlando, it seems, is one of those examples. Especially given that soccer continues to grow in the US.
As it relates to Miami, it seems the one size fits all approach is also causing their current struggle just to get something off the ground. They could have rented a football stadium, or built an SLS outside of Miami, or let Beckham take a crack at a different market that might actually be supportive. Many of the most successful soccer teams aren't in places that work the best in other sports.
I was of the impression that Beckham wanted Miami. I could be wrong.
He does. But does Miami wants the MLS? They have enough to do down there. The MLS should let Miami grow organically much like Orlando and see if the market wants to support soccer.
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 02:05:52 PM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 11:29:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Orlando City Soccer Club drew 32,000 a game last year in the Citrus Bowl. It's crazy! And yet MLS requires them to build a soccer-specific stadium that will only hold 25,000. Even if it's a better game-day experience, it will serve fewer people than they draw already. And that's beside the fact that both the team and the taxpayers of Orlando have to spend millions on this stadium instead of other things. Orlando isn't the only market like this.
Orlando and Seattle draw more than any of the other teams. Most draw somewhere between 15 - 20 thousand per match. It seems odd build a stadium with 25 thousand seats on a whim - so I hope that the number they chose was based on sound research. I assumed that the Orlando attendance numbers were a) skewed based on one massive match (62k vs NYC) and b) higher due to it being the first season. Maybe they expect attendance to decrease?
It's close to impossibe to get tickets for many of the better English soccer teams. At least when they are playing a decent opponent. I guess it's better to be sold out and leave people wanting than to make space for everyone and end up looking like you're the Italian league or something.
Ideally, it will fill most of the way up for all their matches. But there is a real possibility that it will either be sold out or be half-empty. I guess if it's half-empty, it will be slightly less depressing than a half-empty football stadium. If it's sold out, I guess they can have the city pony up the money to redevelop the stadium. Or maybe play in the Citrus Bowl when they need to. I don't know.
I guess my point is that the "one size fits all" approach of insisting on SLS's, generally in urban areas, doesn't always work, and in fact can put artificial limits on some of the teams. Orlando, it seems, is one of those examples. Especially given that soccer continues to grow in the US.
As it relates to Miami, it seems the one size fits all approach is also causing their current struggle just to get something off the ground. They could have rented a football stadium, or built an SLS outside of Miami, or let Beckham take a crack at a different market that might actually be supportive. Many of the most successful soccer teams aren't in places that work the best in other sports.
I was of the impression that Beckham wanted Miami. I could be wrong.
Yes, Beckham picked Miami, but it sounds like he's bound to it now that he's exercised his option to own a team, and that requires the soccer stadium in the urban core. That isn't to say that MLS couldn't work with him on the stadium and location considering how much trouble it's been.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 03:14:44 PM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 02:05:52 PM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 11:29:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 29, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 29, 2015, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on December 29, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
The lower bowl in the Citrus Bowl is only 34,000 which is near what they are drawing per game.
Who is drawing 34k per game?
That would still leave a vast amount of the stadium empty. The atmosphere would really suffer. I'm not saying a) a soccer franchise in Miami is a good idea or b) that this stadium is a good idea - but I personally wouldn't want to go to a soccer match in a half-full football stadium.
Orlando City Soccer Club drew 32,000 a game last year in the Citrus Bowl. It's crazy! And yet MLS requires them to build a soccer-specific stadium that will only hold 25,000. Even if it's a better game-day experience, it will serve fewer people than they draw already. And that's beside the fact that both the team and the taxpayers of Orlando have to spend millions on this stadium instead of other things. Orlando isn't the only market like this.
Orlando and Seattle draw more than any of the other teams. Most draw somewhere between 15 - 20 thousand per match. It seems odd build a stadium with 25 thousand seats on a whim - so I hope that the number they chose was based on sound research. I assumed that the Orlando attendance numbers were a) skewed based on one massive match (62k vs NYC) and b) higher due to it being the first season. Maybe they expect attendance to decrease?
It's close to impossibe to get tickets for many of the better English soccer teams. At least when they are playing a decent opponent. I guess it's better to be sold out and leave people wanting than to make space for everyone and end up looking like you're the Italian league or something.
Ideally, it will fill most of the way up for all their matches. But there is a real possibility that it will either be sold out or be half-empty. I guess if it's half-empty, it will be slightly less depressing than a half-empty football stadium. If it's sold out, I guess they can have the city pony up the money to redevelop the stadium. Or maybe play in the Citrus Bowl when they need to. I don't know.
I guess my point is that the "one size fits all" approach of insisting on SLS's, generally in urban areas, doesn't always work, and in fact can put artificial limits on some of the teams. Orlando, it seems, is one of those examples. Especially given that soccer continues to grow in the US.
As it relates to Miami, it seems the one size fits all approach is also causing their current struggle just to get something off the ground. They could have rented a football stadium, or built an SLS outside of Miami, or let Beckham take a crack at a different market that might actually be supportive. Many of the most successful soccer teams aren't in places that work the best in other sports.
I was of the impression that Beckham wanted Miami. I could be wrong.
Yes, Beckham picked Miami, but it sounds like he's bound to it now that he's exercised his option to own a team, and that requires the soccer stadium in the urban core. That isn't to say that MLS couldn't work with him on the stadium and location considering how much trouble it's been.
I hope he's successful anyway. I would love to see both FL teams do well and thrive.