I came back to Jacksonville for the game tomorrow night, but need to rant a little. I'm staying in a hotel downtown and have some friends with me. We got here about 3pm and went to Sweet Pete's, then I tried taking them to the Cummer museum, but it's closed. I started looking online to see what we could do downtown and aside from Christmas plays there's literally nothing open that's touristy... What can we do?? Why is everything closed at 4pm on a Saturday before a game? /rant
MOCA is open until 5pm, there is the Landing. Take a Water Taxi ride, walk the new Riverwalk. Have drinks at River City Brewing or check out the Volstead or Dos Gatos
let's see...show at the TUPAC, entertainment at the Landing...live music at multiple bars....seems like there's stuff to see and do downtown tonight.
I never would have guessed a Jaguar fan here for the game would be upset because the Cummer wasn't open.
Need to rethink that stereotype?
Quote from: jaxjaguar on December 19, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I came back to Jacksonville for the game tomorrow night, but need to rant a little. I'm staying in a hotel downtown and have some friends with me. We got here about 3pm and went to Sweet Pete's, then I tried taking them to the Cummer museum, but it's closed. I started looking online to see what we could do downtown and aside from Christmas plays there's literally nothing open that's touristy... What can we do?? Why is everything closed at 4pm on a Saturday before a game? /rant
Taking the original post/poster seriously... I +1000 this rant!
I've been here for 2 years now; own a business downtown; live downtown; and just this weekend I was talking about the very same thing... Every weekend, I am trying to get
out of Jacksonville and go somewhere else because there is absolutely nothing to do here! You can only go to RAM and the Jax Beach bandshell so many times before it gets boring.
Quote from: marty904 on December 21, 2015, 07:24:18 AM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on December 19, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I came back to Jacksonville for the game tomorrow night, but need to rant a little. I'm staying in a hotel downtown and have some friends with me. We got here about 3pm and went to Sweet Pete's, then I tried taking them to the Cummer museum, but it's closed. I started looking online to see what we could do downtown and aside from Christmas plays there's literally nothing open that's touristy... What can we do?? Why is everything closed at 4pm on a Saturday before a game? /rant
Taking the original post/poster seriously... I +1000 this rant!
I've been here for 2 years now; own a business downtown; live downtown; and just this weekend I was talking about the very same thing... Every weekend, I am trying to get out of Jacksonville and go somewhere else because there is absolutely nothing to do here! You can only go to RAM and the Jax Beach bandshell so many times before it gets boring.
Downtown is way better than it used to be. But there are only so many options if you don't want to go to a bar. And yeah, there might be live music, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's to your taste.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on December 19, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I came back to Jacksonville for the game tomorrow night, but need to rant a little. I'm staying in a hotel downtown and have some friends with me. We got here about 3pm and went to Sweet Pete's, then I tried taking them to the Cummer museum, but it's closed. I started looking online to see what we could do downtown and aside from Christmas plays there's literally nothing open that's touristy... What can we do?? Why is everything closed at 4pm on a Saturday before a game? /rant
....What can we do?? Give me a call 904-434-0839 and I will show and tell you about Downtown District RICO loop in a kayak that you won't FIND in any list that is supposed to be promoting our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new 2014-560 zone. A bucket list activity that creates a memory that will last a lifetime.
Visit Jacksonville!
Quote from: marty904 on December 21, 2015, 07:24:18 AM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on December 19, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I came back to Jacksonville for the game tomorrow night, but need to rant a little. I'm staying in a hotel downtown and have some friends with me. We got here about 3pm and went to Sweet Pete's, then I tried taking them to the Cummer museum, but it's closed. I started looking online to see what we could do downtown and aside from Christmas plays there's literally nothing open that's touristy... What can we do?? Why is everything closed at 4pm on a Saturday before a game? /rant
Taking the original post/poster seriously... I +1000 this rant!
I've been here for 2 years now; own a business downtown; live downtown; and just this weekend I was talking about the very same thing... Every weekend, I am trying to get out of Jacksonville and go somewhere else because there is absolutely nothing to do here! You can only go to RAM and the Jax Beach bandshell so many times before it gets boring.
Depends on what you want to do and get in to. Maybe these old articles will help fill extra time in the future:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-jan-10-free-things-to-do-in-jacksonville
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-nov-10-more-free-things-to-do-in-jacksonville
I appreciate your post Lake, sadly as a former downtown resident and frequent reader of this forum, I actually checked those pages out after we checked in to our hotel. Unfortunately the earliest you can check into the hotels downtown is 4pm. So after we had lunch at the beaches, bought some "beachy" presents, went to Sweet Pete's and checked into our hotel everything near us was closed.
We wandered around for about 2 hours hoping to find something open along the way, before heading back to the hotel to watch tv since there wasn't anything close by to do. We tried to skyway across the river [closed], walked under/over the Main St/past fountain to the Landing [dead/mostly closed], headed up Laura to MoCA [closed], down to the Elbow [dead/closed], over to the the Fire Museum [closed], back towards the hotel to see if MoSH was open [closed]... By that point we gave up and decided eating and drinking were the only things to do downtown after 4pm. My friends originally wanted to stay a while after the game on Sunday, but after that experience they just wanted to leave rather than walk around for 2 more hours only to see everything was closed still.
As a former resident I really want downtown to be successful and a destination. As of right now there's little to no reason to make a weekend trip for an event, as by the time you arrive you may be able to do one thing if you arrive early.
I feel you. Whenever I bring people Downtown I make sure to have a plan first, as it's too slow to be able to count on. The museums in and near downtown are good, but yeah, they close at 5 or 6 (though that's pretty typical anywhere). But you weren't far from 5 points, King Street and San Marco Square, where there would have been more to do both Saturday and Sunday.
DT Jax isn't a 24/7 type of place at this point in time. I think most places on the linked lists are outside of the actual central business district. Yet, there's plenty of stuff you can get into when combined with the neighborhoods surround it. It really depends on what a specific group is interested in.
QuoteMayor Browns approach of getting out of the way of events organizers should be continued.
Except that in reality... this never started to begin with. It was FAR more difficult when Special Events and Risk Management changed leadership from the Peyton to Brown administration.
Downtown died years ago. Even with special events, it will be a while before it becomes a 24/7 type of scene.....if ever.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2015, 01:32:03 PM
Downtown died years ago. Even with special events, it will be a while before it becomes a 24/7 type of scene.....if ever.
Yeah, and I don't think special events are something we're lacking now anyway. Events seem to have no trouble drawing a crowd when they're well run, and Downtown tends to come alive when they happen. It's the days that there are no events that it's dead, which is most of the time.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on December 21, 2015, 05:30:04 AM
Need to rethink that stereotype?
But then again I've been to both and likely won't go to either again.
Turning a downtown around isn't rocket science but the process to turn a place as dead as DT Jax into a 24/7 environment won't happen overnight either. Just look at the items mentioned in your list. How much money and time would you anticipate reopening streets to two-way traffic and working to restore easy passages between downtown, Springfield, Durkeeville, Brookly, and East Jacksonville? This alone, could run you into the hundreds of millions (assuming you could fund locally 100%) and half of the most troubled streets Jax has no legal control over. These two items (money and no control) alone, mean extra time will be needed to accomplish them. Get all that done and you'll still need hundreds of millions for blocks of needed infill development (due to the demolitions over the last half century). DT has a bright future, but don't expect something with the vibrancy of San Francisco or even Uptown Charlotte (which isn't 24/7) happening any time soon. DT Jax is what it is. If you're bringing people into town for the weekend, be prepared to show them more than just DT.
I don't know what the Jags or a convention center have to do with getting funding and approval to change infrastructure the city has no control over. Different funding mechanisms and agencies. Anyway, infrastructure funding and design has become a major local priority in recent years. A prime complete streets example will begin construction in the next year or two, when FDOT starts construction on the Fuller Warren Bridge. Local residents and city officials were highly successful (between 2013 and 2014) working with FDOT to modify bridge expansion plans to include a $20 million bike/ped component between Riverside and San Marco.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Roads-and-Bridges/Fuller-Warren-Bridge-Expansion/i-cSWkZRk/0/X2/2014-07-25_Alternative%201B%20Concept%20Plans_Page_08-X2.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-aug-revised-fuller-warren-bridge-plans-to-be-released-today
I'm actually one of a small group that was intimately involved kicking the Fuller Warren thing off......and complete streets ;). The ground swell of visible public support from multiple civic, advocacy and politicos came months after the initial efforts began. If you recall, the same pattern took place years ago with the elimination of JTA's plans to turn Adams Street into a bus only road.
Anyway, I didn't say anything about something being a game stopper. I just mentioned the game (DT revitalization) is a long one and anyone bringing visitors to Jax (at this point in time) should be prepared to explore areas outside of DT.
Jax needs more people living downtown more than it needs festivals and a cool new museum or something like that. More permanent residents will allow places to be open later than 6 pm. The Berkman II and Trio/Barnett are perfect opportunities to start. Lake, you say this stuff doesn't happen over night . . . haven't most of the projects that are discussed on this board been in the works for the last 10 to 15 years?
^Like what? In our 10 years of operating this site some projects have been built and some have not. For every high profile project that's failed to materialize like the Landing, Trio or Shipyards debacles, we've quietly seen a Metropolitan Lofts, City Center, Brooklyn Riverside or Houston Street Manor spring up. We do have a few high profile projects/sites we need to take care of but it's still a process and the same process most cities have to go through. The Miamis, Savannahs and Charlottes we see and are jealous of today are all more than 30 years into the revitalization process. We've just got to strive to continue to move forward as opposed to taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back with our revitalization moves. More importantly, we have to make sure our improvements are clustered in a pedestrian scale setting. This has probably been our largest setback with downtown revitalization over the last few decades.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2015, 04:20:23 PM
More importantly, we have to make sure our improvements are clustered in a pedestrian scale setting. This has probably been our largest setback with downtown revitalization over the last few decades.
Sounds like something we could learn about from a walking tour of Baltimore!! ;)
Yes it is. A place that has made eerily similar investments as Jax over the last three decades. However, the clustering of investments has led to a dramatically different outcome.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2015, 04:20:23 PM
^Like what? In our 10 years of operating this site some projects have been built and some have not. For every high profile project that's failed to materialize like the Landing, Trio or Shipyards debacles, we've quietly seen a Metropolitan Lofts, City Center, Brooklyn Riverside or Houston Street Manor spring up. We do have a few high profile projects/sites we need to take care of but it's still a process and the same process most cities have to go through. The Miamis, Savannahs and Charlottes we see and are jealous of today are all more than 30 years into the revitalization process. We've just got to strive to continue to move forward as opposed to taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back with our revitalization moves. More importantly, we have to make sure our improvements are clustered in a pedestrian scale setting. This has probably been our largest setback with downtown revitalization over the last few decades.
The two that I believe should have already broken ground by now are the Trio/Barnett and East San Marco. I think those are marquee projects for their respective locations and will lead to a boost in activity. SM already has activity but it will bring more young people from the Southside and will likely lead to more infill to the east on Atlantic that is currently kind of sketchy. Not downtown but will add to the buzz of the core. Same with infill along Main Street in Springfield. We all know how important the Trio/Barnett project is. I would also like to see the Emerald Necklace take shape with riverfront greenspace along the north bank. Having a beautiful and connected park system would add more incentive for active people to move downtown.
Quote from: CCMjax on December 21, 2015, 04:55:10 PMThe two that I believe should have already broken ground by now are the Trio/Barnett and East San Marco. I think those are marquee projects for their respective locations and will lead to a boost in activity.
The problem is that they are also two of the most difficult to pull off from a private sector financing standpoint. The land cost and design are probably two of the biggest items that led to Brooklyn Riverside/Shoppes of Brooklyn materializing relatively quickly and East San Marco not. Same goes for the Trio, when compared to a privately funded retrofit of an older building like the Metropolitan Lofts. Trio needs a ton of public incentives, while an improving market and success at 220 Riverside/Brooklyn Riverside should help East San Marco eventually happen.
Riverside, Avondale, and San Marco are where most of the urban growth/infill is still occurring. That is also where I take people from out of town and most are pretty impressed by the vibe. Brooklyn is the beginning of the overflow of that.
I wouldn't even attempt to show people downtown. The pace of life in Jax is so slowwwwwwww - I think it plays very well into a few laid back days at the beach. I honestly have no faith that downtown Jax will ever be a place that is interesting.
And if we have to pay another f*****g group of highly paid people/executives to go walk around another city just to see some goddamn common sense, the same common sense they can see on their own goddamn time when they go to said city anyway for business (or one that's similar), I'm not going to do anything because I can't. But I will bitch about that insanely stupid strategy (one that's resulted in more than a few hefty bills, probably racked up a few steep bar tabs, may have resulted in some copulation by those who cared to try, and yielded jack shit for the taxpayers and people of Jacksonville).
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 21, 2015, 04:27:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2015, 04:20:23 PM
More importantly, we have to make sure our improvements are clustered in a pedestrian scale setting. This has probably been our largest setback with downtown revitalization over the last few decades.
Sounds like something we could learn about from a walking tour of Baltimore!! ;)
Can't say that about the Waterway!! :)
Quote from: simms3 on December 21, 2015, 06:06:06 PM
I wouldn't even attempt to show people downtown. The pace of life in Jax is so slowwwwwwww - I think it plays very well into a few laid back days at the beach. I honestly have no faith that downtown Jax will ever be a place that is interesting.
From my view, the core is already interesting. However, I find most cities interesting regardless of the level of vibrancy. Anyway, I also typically avoid downtown unless there's something going on that crowds the streets. Depending on where the visitors come from and expect, it can get embarrassing and depressing on dead days. Having St. Augustine a short distance away is always a good fallback option for those times. For the planners and historians that I take on tours, we generally see the good, bad and ugly of the entire urban core. So, not only are we checking out downtown, we're also visiting everything from Riverside and Springfield to Durkeeville, San Marco and Talleyrand. Different strokes for different folks.
QuoteAnd if we have to pay another f*****g group of highly paid people/executives to go walk around another city just to see some goddamn common sense, the same common sense they can see on their own goddamn time when they go to said city anyway for business (or one that's similar), I'm not going to do anything because I can't. But I will bitch about that insanely stupid strategy (one that's resulted in more than a few hefty bills, probably racked up a few steep bar tabs, may have resulted in some copulation by those who cared to try, and yielded jack shit for the taxpayers and people of Jacksonville).
ProjectMaximus was talking about this trip being proposed by forum members: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,25769.msg432317.html#msg432317
Nobody being paid. Just a group of forum members interested in visiting a city together that has had some recent success in revitalizing its core.
^^^Ah, gotcha, so not one of those other trips that the City and/or various business interests have taken on behalf of the city.
Entertaining guests in JAX was always a challenge, normally went to the beach or St Augustine........most guests from out of town were blown away by the sheer numbers of homeless people wandering the streets.....and the eternal bomb fire in the vacant lot on State Street.........resembles something out of Mad Max......
Quote from: stephendare on December 21, 2015, 03:28:04 PM
As you remember, we were involved in the bike per component campaign, driven largely by Riversiders and cyclists, and the issue is different from although related to complete streets.
huh?
Quote from: simms3 on December 21, 2015, 06:06:06 PM
And if we have to pay another f*****g group of highly paid people/executives to go walk around another city just to see some goddamn common sense, the same common sense they can see on their own goddamn time when they go to said city anyway for business (or one that's similar),
Assuming you are referring to the chamber trips....you do know that those high paid execs don't get paid by the city (or the Chamber) to go on those trips right?
I do know, but I also thought all those trips were hilariously wasteful, of time and resources no matter where they came from.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2015, 11:30:46 AM
DT Jax isn't a 24/7 type of place at this point in time. I think most places on the linked lists are outside of the actual central business district. Yet, there's plenty of stuff you can get into when combined with the neighborhoods surround it. It really depends on what a specific group is interested in.
DT doesn't have to be 24/7 to be "alive" but it DOES need to stay open past 5pm. We're caught in a horrible catch 22 - Aundra Wallace says that the key to revitalization in the core is more residences (which I strongly agree with) however in order to attract more residents, you have to give them a reason to move there and currently, there is little reason.
The solution cannot be "there's things to do in Riverside or San Marco". And I agree 100% with @stephendare - I felt like efforts to make "downtown on fire" was much present when Mayor Brown was at the helm!
Catching up after a few days.
I think I saw a Kayak Launch as part of the removal of the Old Court House parking lot.
Some of the costs to convert to 2 way streets includes repaving so the new lines will be clear. The DOT does its every 7 to 10 years, don't know if the City has a schedule. Have to put up new traffic signals. If you do it when you repave, the additional cost is lower. But, to do a complete conversion downtown, you'd need to do them all at the same time, increasing costs and traffic disruption. Which may all be worth it.
Quote from: marty904 on December 24, 2015, 07:32:53 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2015, 11:30:46 AM
DT Jax isn't a 24/7 type of place at this point in time. I think most places on the linked lists are outside of the actual central business district. Yet, there's plenty of stuff you can get into when combined with the neighborhoods surround it. It really depends on what a specific group is interested in.
DT doesn't have to be 24/7 to be "alive" but it DOES need to stay open past 5pm. We're caught in a horrible catch 22 - Aundra Wallace says that the key to revitalization in the core is more residences (which I strongly agree with) however in order to attract more residents, you have to give them a reason to move there and currently, there is little reason.
The solution cannot be "there's things to do in Riverside or San Marco". And I agree 100% with @stephendare - I felt like efforts to make "downtown on fire" was much present when Mayor Brown was at the helm!
The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".
Quote from: Tacachale on December 24, 2015, 10:21:26 AM
The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".
"Incentives" is the main reason we have so many vacant buildings downtown now... Never in my life have I seen so many "business ventures" that were so reliant on a city "chipping in" to make their business work. Most of the "developers" that have bought buildings downtown or planned to, always depend on getting city incentives in order to make their business work. Then when they don't get it (for whatever reason) then the buildings just sit there forever (Laura St Trio, Barnett, The Landing, etc, etc, etc) rotting away.
And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core. If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.
Building a business plan around a venture that relies on city incentives is like bringing on a silent (or not so silent) partner that you don't even know if they have their share of the investment. I don't get it...
Quote from: marty904 on December 26, 2015, 08:24:23 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 24, 2015, 10:21:26 AM
The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".
"Incentives" is the main reason we have so many vacant buildings downtown now... Never in my life have I seen so many "business ventures" that were so reliant on a city "chipping in" to make their business work. Most of the "developers" that have bought buildings downtown or planned to, always depend on getting city incentives in order to make their business work. Then when they don't get it (for whatever reason) then the buildings just sit there forever (Laura St Trio, Barnett, The Landing, etc, etc, etc) rotting away.
And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core. If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.
Building a business plan around a venture that relies on city incentives is like bringing on a silent (or not so silent) partner that you don't even know if they have their share of the investment. I don't get it...
Lol, there would be even more buildings sitting empty downtown if it wasn't for incentives. Like I said, there are few (unused) residential buildings downtown, so it requires either an expensive reuse of a non-residential building or totally new construction. Our downtown housing market is no where near where it needs to be for developers and financiers to take on the risk without the city being willing to commit. And yes, it's not like that on the Southside.
Most cities with revived downtowns went through a similar cycle. The difference for, say, Charlotte or Orlando, is that the city governments stuck with it and didn't just decide to give up partway through, like we have.
We give more incentives to developers outside of downtown. Over a billion is being invested in SR 9B and the First Coast Expressway to open land up for new development. For example, there's no Bass Pro coming to town with the hundreds of millions being spent to construct SR 9B to access it. Same goes for the development at 9B and I-295 East Beltway. Also, Sleimen was recently successful in winning millions in mobility credits for a strip mall at Atlantic and Kernan.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 26, 2015, 08:55:08 AM
We give more incentives to developers outside of downtown. Over a billion is being invested in SR 9B and the First Coast Expressway to open land up for new development. For example, there's no Bass Pro coming to town with the hundreds of millions being spent to construct SR 9B to access it. Same goes for the development at 9B and I-295 East Beltway.
Some of those aren't COJ project, but it sounds like an argument for balancing incentives better, rather than ending downtown incentives.
Quote
Also, Sleimen was recently successful in winning millions in mobility credits for a strip mall at Atlantic and Kernan.
Yep, $11 million from none other than Mayor Alvin "Get out of the way" Brown.
Yes. Most of the highways aren't COJ incentives but they are coordinated. Years before 9B was funded by FDOT, the then inaccessible Davis tract (which also got COJ mobility credits) had already been rezoned as commercial. We also give incentives for companies willing to relocate and expand to town regardless of if they are heading to downtown or elsewhere. I don't know why some seem to think that downtown is where most of the incentive money goes. In reality, the flow of money subsidizing private development is completely opposite.
Quote from: marty904 on December 26, 2015, 08:24:23 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 24, 2015, 10:21:26 AM
The problem of downtown residents isn't attracting them, it's building more residential units for them. The current units stay mostly full even in downtown's current state, but building more is going to take more incentives and coordination than just "getting out of the way".
"Incentives" is the main reason we have so many vacant buildings downtown now... Never in my life have I seen so many "business ventures" that were so reliant on a city "chipping in" to make their business work. Most of the "developers" that have bought buildings downtown or planned to, always depend on getting city incentives in order to make their business work. Then when they don't get it (for whatever reason) then the buildings just sit there forever (Laura St Trio, Barnett, The Landing, etc, etc, etc) rotting away.
And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core. If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.
Building a business plan around a venture that relies on city incentives is like bringing on a silent (or not so silent) partner that you don't even know if they have their share of the investment. I don't get it...
+1
Quote from: marty904 on December 26, 2015, 08:24:23 AM
And this only seems to be the case in the downtown core. If a developer wanted to build an apartment building out in Mandarin or the Southside, they would do their due diligence and feasibility studies, get their financing in order, work out any zoning variances needed and if all good... they spend their own money (or leveraged financing) and build their business.
or perhaps get government to build a new highway that opens their land up. Ever heard of E-Town Parkway? How about State Road 9B? if not, do some research.