Commuter Rail: Preliminary Station Locations
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5256-vre-v1rotate.jpg)
As a part of JTA's ongoing commuter rail feasibility study, Gannett Fleming has released information regarding the potential station locations and wants your feedback.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/823
Looks good. I would have liked to have seen a station for NAS Jax outside either the Birmingham or Yorktown Gates, with an area for busses or shuttles to take people into the base (after proper security screening). I also wouldn't mind seeing a station for the zoo.
I don't mind so much not having a station for San Marco Square since not many people seem to commute to that area. I think it would be better served by local transport like a trolley line or skyway station. I suppose a station could later be built at St. Augustine Airport if and when another commercial carrier begins serving that airport.
Are there plans for a western route along Beaver Street to Baldwin? What about that proposed TOD at Philips Highway and River Oaks Road?
there is a large & ever-growing population in nw st johns county, along with a large, existing population in mandarin, the beaches, arlington & the westside (out 103rd area) that will be missed by this. anyway to include them (other than they drive to the nearest stop (anywhere from 7 to 15 miles away) and hop on the train. if not now, feasiblity in the future?
These are the initial existing lines that they are studying to see if its even feasible to have rail service down them. Anything requiring completely new right-of-way and track installment is most likely outside of the scope of what they are studying and won't be a part of a "initial" rail implementation plan. For the time being, those areas would have to be served with better express bus service that has a coordinated schedule to drop riders off at the nearest rail station around the same time that the trains would arrive.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2008, 08:29:46 AM
These are the initial existing lines that they are studying to see if its even feasible to have rail service down them. Anything requiring completely new right-of-way and track installment is most likely outside of the scope of what they are studying and won't be a part of a "initial" rail implementation plan. For the time being, those areas would have to be served with better express bus service that has a coordinated schedule to drop riders off at the nearest rail station around the same time that the trains would arrive.
cool...if this thing ever does go through (the initial rail plan), then i think JTA should use the opening day opportunity to also highly publicize (and have operational on the same day) these new "better express bus services" that would work in exact coordination with the new commuter rail. basically, i'm saying have the whole system up and running at the same time - not in phases.
i would think the bus-part of this overall transit plan would be fairly inexpensive to implement.
Quote from: Driven1 on June 19, 2008, 08:15:55 AM
there is a large & ever-growing population in nw st johns county, along with a large, existing population in mandarin, the beaches, arlington & the westside (out 103rd area) that will be missed by this. anyway to include them (other than they drive to the nearest stop (anywhere from 7 to 15 miles away) and hop on the train. if not now, feasiblity in the future?
Mandarin and NW St. Johns residents would only have to drive east to the FEC line to connect to the commuter rail system. For beaches' residents, take JTB west until Philips and connect there. Even if a line isn't in your backyard it can still reduce the amount of driving on your daily commute.
Coming from the southeast side, that route looks good. My only concerns would be parking and the time it takes to get downtown. Currently an Express bus from Avenues Mall takes an hour, no faster than the local route...not very express. And currently I live at the far end of Baymeadows, so I would have to drive to the station. Like DC, coordination between bus lines and train lines would be needed, so the bus lines feed to the train stations, often. I'm originally from DC, so I'm used to getting from 30 miles out to downtown in 45 minutes.
It would be nice to see a stop at JTB on the southeast corridor in order to serve the businesses in Southpoint.
Based on those locations, I could see myself using it. I know initially it's not going to have stops all every area that's convenient for people but I wouldn't mind driving a bit to a station and parking and then taking the train to where I need to go. It would be nice if there were additional stops at Jax Beach and the Sports Complex / Fairgrounds. That's my 2 cents.
Quote from: DevilsAdvocate on June 19, 2008, 08:47:55 AM
Quote from: Driven1 on June 19, 2008, 08:15:55 AM
there is a large & ever-growing population in nw st johns county, along with a large, existing population in mandarin, the beaches, arlington & the westside (out 103rd area) that will be missed by this. anyway to include them (other than they drive to the nearest stop (anywhere from 7 to 15 miles away) and hop on the train. if not now, feasiblity in the future?
Mandarin and NW St. Johns residents would only have to drive east to the FEC line to connect to the commuter rail system. For beaches' residents, take JTB west until Philips and connect there. Even if a line isn't in your backyard it can still reduce the amount of driving on your daily commute.
"Driving east" for these residents means at least 9-10 miles for NW St Johns residents and not much less for Mandarin residents. Mandarin is only about 10-12 miles south of downtown and NW St Johns is not that much further...so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for these residents to drive that far. With Philips traffic and I-95 traffic, probably would make a little more sense for the beaches residents. But...they would still be fighting the awful JTB traffic.
Very nice and looks to be pretty well thought out. I am very excited to see some progress on this one.
Here are my suggestions....
North Corridor:
- Looks pretty complete and should prove to be very successful (assuming the busses enhance it).
South Corridor:
- Either move the Timuquana Stop to NAS or add a stop at NAS.
- Drop the Russell stop
Southeast Corridor:
- Move University stop to JTP/Southpoint or add a stop at JTB/Southpoint
- Move SJC Complex stop to ariport (Conceptual Multimodal Station already in the works)
- Place St. Augustine station at Orange Street to take advantage of new city parking garage
a couple blocks away.
Quote from: cline on June 19, 2008, 08:58:03 AM
It would be nice to see a stop at JTB on the southeast corridor in order to serve the businesses in Southpoint.
agreed...and the people coming in from hodges, pablo and the beaches on JTB and ultimately heading downtown.
North Corridor:
1. The Moncrief Road station should be shifted directly north of Shands Jacksonville. There's a ton of city owned property there and it gives the community to opportunity to replace the bloody block with some positive infill development.
2. An urban station should be added on Mrytle Avenue, between Beaver St. and New Kings Road. There's a ton of under utilized, yet strucuturally sound brick warehouse buildings in the area and the farmer's market and Edward Waters College are within walking distance. On top of that, the neighborhood surrounding that area is very transit dependent, one of Jacksonville's densest and Mrytle already has a higher level of pedestrian traffic than most streets in Jacksonville.
3. The East 21st Street Station should be shifted to Liberty Street. It offers more redevelopment opportunities with the Springfield Warehouse District, Main Street nearby, Swisher (1,100 employees) and the dense collection of existing residential under utilized housing stock. We miss a huge opportunity to rebuild and encourage new development in established urban neighborhoods by running trains through that area, without stopping. 21st Street isn't that far away, but the redevelopment potential is not the same.
4. Jax Zoo/Hecksher - The feasibility of station should be looked at here. With some type of coordinated bus service, rail passengers could have direct access to the zoo and the proposed Mitsui JaxPort Terminals.
5. The Duval Road Station should be shifted south to Airport Center Drive. This would provide direct access, via express bus (maybe AirJTA), to Shands proposed medical center, River City Marketplace, the Airport Road hotels and JIA.
6. I'm not sure there will be decent ridership north of Airport Center Drive. Unless the feasibility study states otherwise, it may be a good idea to terminate the north corridor line at Airport Center Road to reduce the costs and extend to Fernandina Beach (not just Yulee) at a later date.
South Corridor:
1. A station should be added at King Street. With Park & King blossoming and anchored by St. Vincents Medical Center, this location is a natural fit for serving Riverside and North Riverside residents.
2. Either the Timuquana Road station should be shifted south to NAS Jax or a second station should be added at NAS Jax. Its the largest employer in Jacksonville and it has a bus system that could tie into a rail stop at the main gate.
3. I agree with Jason....drop the Russell stop
Southeast Corridor:
1. San Marco/Prudential Boulevard - This area needs more study. If a station is placed here, it would compete against Skyway and the proposed BRT line in the area. We're also missing a stop at Atlantic Blvd (San Marco Square). Its already a walkable destination from the railroad crossing and once Publix goes in, it becomes a natural destination shoppers coming from other locations not served by full fledged grocery store or walkable shopping district.
3. Move University to or add another stop at JTB (although the railyard my complicate things here).
2. St. Augustine Airport - A few years ago, St. Augustine had plans to build a transportation center at their airport. Ridership may be higher at the St. Johns County complex in the short term, but if the airport expands another stop may be warranted.
When they get to estimating costs, two estimates should be done.
A. Estimates for lines that extend from downtown to Duval County's borders.
B. Estimates that cover the area shown in these drawings.
At the end of the day, each county should contribute the cost for service in their borders. Doing such would spread the costs of the system to four different counties, thus not forcing one entity to pay the brunt of the costs.
Yeah it does look good and I concur and approve; but I agree with the poster regarding putting a station at NAS Jax. I guess they figure that the Sailors can bus or auto it to Timuquana or the other nearest station but I think more traffic would come from NAS Jax, or, though it is in close proximity to Timuquana and the next station, put one at NAS anyway.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Traveller on June 19, 2008, 08:11:53 AM
Looks good. I would have liked to have seen a station for NAS Jax outside either the Birmingham or Yorktown Gates, with an area for busses or shuttles to take people into the base (after proper security screening). I also wouldn't mind seeing a station for the zoo.
I don't mind so much not having a station for San Marco Square since not many people seem to commute to that area. I think it would be better served by local transport like a trolley line or skyway station. I suppose a station could later be built at St. Augustine Airport if and when another commercial carrier begins serving that airport.
Are there plans for a western route along Beaver Street to Baldwin? What about that proposed TOD at Philips Highway and River Oaks Road?
Unless there has been a population explosion in western Duval and other points out west, would it really be feasible to create a western route along beaver to Baldwin? Is the traffic along that route really that intense to justify that route? I wouldn't think so. How many people really commute from Jax or other areas to Baldwin and other points west? Don't think this would be feasible or enough commuter interest to justify.
Heights Unknown
From the initial corridor evaluations, a line to Baldwin did not appear to be feasible.
Quote from: Driven1 on June 19, 2008, 08:34:56 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2008, 08:29:46 AM
These are the initial existing lines that they are studying to see if its even feasible to have rail service down them. Anything requiring completely new right-of-way and track installment is most likely outside of the scope of what they are studying and won't be a part of a "initial" rail implementation plan. For the time being, those areas would have to be served with better express bus service that has a coordinated schedule to drop riders off at the nearest rail station around the same time that the trains would arrive.
cool...if this thing ever does go through (the initial rail plan), then i think JTA should use the opening day opportunity to also highly publicize (and have operational on the same day) these new "better express bus services" that would work in exact coordination with the new commuter rail. basically, i'm saying have the whole system up and running at the same time - not in phases.
i would think the bus-part of this overall transit plan would be fairly inexpensive to implement.
What JTA does with the existing bus service is just as important as adding rail. My ideal scenerio would be to make these rail lines the city's transit spines and reroute existing bus services to serve specific neighborhoods as a direct connection to the closest rail stations. By eliminating the need for most buses to go downtown, many can be set up to make shorter runs and more frequent stops (shorter headways) on existing suburban routes.
Quote6. I'm not sure there will be decent ridership north of Airport Center Drive. Unless the feasibility study states otherwise, it may be a good idea to terminate the north corridor line at Airport Center Road to reduce the costs and extend to Fernandina Beach (not just Yulee) at a later date.
Given the growth projections and development plans I've seen for Nassau County east of I-95 over the next 20 years, I believe a Yulee station would be fully utilized by the time this system comes online.
QuoteGiven the growth projections and development plans I've seen for Nassau County east of I-95 over the next 20 years, I believe a Yulee station would be fully utilized by the time this system comes online.
I may be thinking in unrealistic terms, given our political environment, but I believe we could have an initial segment operating in five years or less, if its made a priority, designed to be "no-frills", constructed using the $100 million set aside in the BJP, along with public/private investment to construct stations. However, if we are going to rely on the FTA for funding, the timetable and hoops to cross and jump through will be more extensive.
Maybe someone can answer this for me. Isn't some of that rail, especially the south corridor that goes by NAS, only a one way track? How do you schedule the trains to come by frequently enough to make it worthwhile? How do the trains turn around? Do the trains go both directions?
The railroad guys like Ock can provide you with more detailed information, but here goes.
QuoteMaybe someone can answer this for me. Isn't some of that rail, especially the south corridor that goes by NAS, only a one way track?
There's no such thing as one way track. Unlike cars, trains can travel in both directions. But, as you said, a portion of the line in that area only has one track.
QuoteHow do you schedule the trains to come by frequently enough to make it worthwhile?
If Orlando is successful in their efforts to establish commuter rail there, a good portion of the existing trains now using that track will be relocated to a different line, thus freeing up capacity. At that point, its just a matter of scheduling, double tracking or adding a passing siding here or there.
QuoteHow do the trains turn around? Do the trains go both directions?
Trains can go in both directions. If its push/pull, sometimes the locomotives will pull the passenger cars into the stations and at other times, the locomotive will push the passenger cars from behind.
Example of Push/Pull: New Mexico Railrunner
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2414-900185474_edb5d97dd0_b.jpg)
Example of Self Propelled DMU: San Diego Sprinter
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4209-wlindley.jpg)
(http://static.flickr.com/1149/739984684_b988c1865c.jpg)
Hey Y'all, boy is it ever good to be home.Please find the answer to a few of your concerns here:
One way track:
If we are talking about "directional-running" then it is possible to have one-way-track. Directional running is a concept born of merger of former competitive companies. A case where railroads A and B, both ran between city 1-3. For our example they did it on their own track, often only a few hundred yards apart. After the merger of A and B into a single railroad, the former "A" line became the Northbound main track, and the "B" line became the Southbound main track. In railroadese, this is known as directional running. Otherwise, except for freight trains (switcher jobs) using one-way downtown streets, there really is no such thing as a one way track. Certainly we don't have ANY within the commuter rail district in NE Flordia.
Railroad signaling is very, very advanced. I'm not talking about crossings here, I'm talking about traffic control. They are often displayed in the locomotive cab itself. They can be locked into the locomotive controls or train controls. A single railroad track with passing sidings every 10 miles or so, has as much bi-directional capacity as an 8 lane freeway. How smooth is it? Let's listen in on the radio for examples:
"Jacksonville CSX to JAXTRAX commuter train 777 Southbound, - Status check"
"CSX tower, this is Jaxtrax 777, just cleared the YUKON platform Southbound"
"Roger 777, clear YUKON 4:03 pm Southbound."
"Jaxtrax 777, Be informed that Amtrak 92 is Northbound past Russell at 4:00 pm. You will meet at Orange Park Station, signals will indicate an APPROACH setting"
"CSX tower, this is 777 South, we will meet Amtrak 92 North at Orange Park Station, roger"
"CSX tower, this is Amtrak 92, do we have a speed restriction at this meet?"
"CSX tower to Amtrak 92, No speed restrictions are in effect, traffic control lights will be set against Jaxtrak 777 at Orange Park station, he will hold until you run-by."
This is how it is done folks, add to this the fact that the signals are "LOCKED" into the train controls themselves and if our "777" runs through a red signal, every brake on the train would lock up. So signals controlled from Central Traffic control in Jacksonville. Movement, controlled from central traffic control in Jacksonville. Looking for high greens and clear tracks...
Ocklawaha
Sounds like air traffic control.
Thanks for the explanation, Ock. How do you feel about these preliminary station locations? I really hope they can take that 100 million and build out a nice bare bones system that is functional and useful.
Wow, how cool would this be? Go to St. Augustine for dinner and not have to spend a zillion dollars for gas!
Anyway, the most important connection of this whole system if you ask me is JIA. The airport is the most important main street in any town. Some sort of bus shuttle to the station would be in line, I guess. Maybe in 20 or 30 years JIA could have an "AirTrain" like they have at JFK and EWR (Newark) in New York.. It connects the airport to the nearest LIRR or NJ Transit station.
....But thats just wishful thinking. Running a reliable and timely service from Downtown to the Avenues would impress the hell out of me, as our city's track record on things like this is just awful.
I just saw this on yahoo
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8374760 (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8374760)
I don't see any real issues, except add a station for NAS Jax Better yet, the base can start a shuttle to and from the station and go through the gate as has been stated before, which would be a great idea.
Great study overall, very well put together. JTA, make it happen!
The most glaring deficiency with the station placement is the lack of a King Street Riverside station. Riverside is a very walkable, transit friendly neighborhood and has to be a part of any commuter rail system.
I heard this last week on the Diane Rehm show, thought it was a very interesting discussion on the "state of mass transit" in the United States. Touches on the funding issues from local, state, and federal levels.
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/08/06/12.php#20828
Listen to the first segment entitled "U.S Transportation Infrastructure"
The Diane Rehm show piece was well done. It's worth a listen.
I think the Plan should show intial stops and potential later additions. Each stop is expensive; we'll get started sooner if key locations are started and more added later.
As some have pointed out, stops (and a good parking deck and bus interchange terminal) are needed at JTB (there is commuter parking space there already) and Kings/Riverside and other places, like Emerson will be needed.
Each stop will become a town center development over time. We need city zoning/planning rules that promote good and early Transit-Oriented Development at these sites.
The MPO, JTA, COJ, JAA, FDOT, DCA and St. Johns County all need to get on the same page to make this work.
Specifically, on the South Corridor, there should also be a stop across from the FCCJ - Kent Campus. In addition to serving students at this campus, it would also tie into a number of bus routes already established at this location.
And of course there should be a stop at the NAS.
On the Southeast Corridor, stations are need at Emerson and at JTB.
On a general note, some of these proposed stations, such as the one at Edgewood Avenue, have the potential to greatly enhance the quality of urban life in such neighborhoods as Murray Hill. The rail system will bring new vitality and development to these areas (BRT will not do this).
A few changes in the plan...
My own opinion is that the SOUTHWEST LINE INCLUDE:
King Street U
Edgewood C
FCCJ Kent U
San Juan U-C-T
Timmaquana C
Yukon-NAS C-T
Orange Park U-C-T
Doctors Lake C
Russell C
Magnolia Springs C
Green Cove Springs U-C-T
"STATION THINK"
C=a station designed for the driver, or passenger arriving on a bus. This place includes huge parking facilities, transit lanes and pull outs, and lots of real time information.
U=Urban, stations that could graduate into Amtrak, Greyhound, JTA, Commuter Rail etc... These would offer urgan services, snacks, restaurant, shops. Note these stations do not depend on the automobile for survival.
T=Transit, multi-modal stations, these stations rely on a heavy network of interlaced networked transit from several different modes. Skyway, commuter rail, streetcar, LRT, Bus etc. Depending on location, retail or services might become highly developed.
this style of "rethinking" the stations would take place on all lines. The Southwest line would retain Russell and Orange Park would become a major Urban Staion with the political PUSH for an Amtrak stop as well.
Yukon-NAS is another that would have to be added, right out of the front gate at NAS,
The Southeast Lines would get the same treatment with ATLANTIC taking the place of the current "San Marco" station. Further it opens the door for a "Gary Street Busway" that would tie the entire City Coach fleet on the Southbank to the Skyway/Baptist/Aetna, As the routes turn south past the current "Kings Avenue Station" and the Skyway reaches Atlantic or "Jackson Square" Proposal area, then the short section of BRT busway becomes a balancing factor, Skyway on the East, Rail down the center and BRT in the west of the Southbank. All working and feeding each other, and each doing what it does best.
The former St. Augustine Florida East Coast Station is still very much in place, still a very 1963 modern building, with parking for several hundred cars. Another former station stood on the North end of the old FEC office buildings (Flagler College) in the little park. Further boarding tracks ran down the line to the west of the parking lot and crossed the road to the shrimpboat docks. Either of these could be rebuilt as a commuter station, while the flassic station would make an excellent stop for AMTRAK, COMMUTER RAIL,
Northside, should still be considered as LRT, private right of way + extreme fast acceleration + zero pollution makes it ideal for an urban setting.
In most cases there is room for ruture expansion. An old branchline from St. Augustine to Elkton, Spuds, Hastings and East Palatka, could be revived. A big chunk of it is still intact. Another right of way is the former ITT PORTLAND CEMENT railroad which branched off the FEC South of St. Augustine and stoped short of Flagler Beach right in the middle of the working section of Palm Coast. I believe they have preserved that right-of-way. North of Yulee, the railroad runs into Kingsland, from there the St. Merys Railroad runs to St. Marys and the Nuke Sub Base. There is also a former CSX/ARMY branch that wanders up and over to make a second connection with the base. Future lines to Baldwin will encounter several branchlines, one from US-90 (Beaver Street) to Gateway Mall and the mainline north over the Trout. Another branch fed into the Cecil Commerce Center (something the bright lights in the Navy or City Hall allowed to be pulled up... prior to shopping for new industry. {I can just imagine the look on the faces of these executives, "Oh look Mac they HAD a railroad for us, but they tore it up...duh?"})
A bit West and South and more former lines come into play, a former ACL, nee Jacksonville Southwestern mainline from west of Baldwin to Lake Butler, Raiford, Alachua - Gainesville, Micanopy, Ocala. Another is the remaining tap to a tiny surviving segment of this from Starke to Alachua. Another extensive Railroad runs from about 3 blocks from the front gate of Camp Blanding all the way to just South of Starke. Remains at Waldo, Monticello, Madison to Valdosta, White Springs - Live Oak - Dowling Park, Tallahassee to Carabelle, St. Marks, Thomasville
Some of these old right-of-ways are useless, others have use as AMTRAK, or perhaps commuter links, maintence bases . The facts are we have a network of railroads past or current that go where we want to be everyday. It's a trump card that Miami and Tampa don't have, and frankly, New York Atlanta and Washington only dream about. Wouldn't it be great if just once in our history, we seized the day?
Ocklawaha
I would think a stop at Wells Rd in OP would be a good idea. There is a college, two new hotels and the dog track in close vicinity. Plus, this would relieve a great deal of congestion during rush hours.
Quote from: AndyB on June 23, 2008, 12:19:16 PM
I would think a stop at Wells Rd in OP would be a good idea. There is a college, two new hotels and the dog track in close vicinity. Plus, this would relieve a great deal of congestion during rush hours.
Its also a direct link between Park and Blanding with direct access to Orange Park Mall. Perhaps the station they have at I-295 & Park, should be relocated a little south to Wells Road instead.
I have become afraid to be hopeful. This plan, assuming the suggestions modifying some of the stops are incorporated, would be a magnificent achievement. I am convinced it would not only stabilize and/or revitalize every area it reaches, spurring development and adding significant economic activity across this sprawling mess of a metropolis, but it would serve to unify us into a more powerful, integrated entity. It may even provide the "turning point" so many have been waiting for. What do we need to do to help make this a reality?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2008, 01:01:45 PM
Quote from: AndyB on June 23, 2008, 12:19:16 PM
I would think a stop at Wells Rd in OP would be a good idea. There is a college, two new hotels and the dog track in close vicinity. Plus, this would relieve a great deal of congestion during rush hours.
Its also a direct link between Park and Blanding with direct access to Orange Park Mall. Perhaps the station they have at I-295 & Park, should be relocated a little south to Wells Road instead.
Theoretically a station at Wells would be better than at Collins, and a dedicated bus or even a PCT "trolly" route from that station up & down Wells (primarily to the OP Mall) would help. That would help make it a destination.
Along with pwhitford's air of cautious optimism, the question that begs to be asked is "What are the odds that Clay County would be on board for this at all?" And even St. Johns County for that matter, regarding the proposed SE corridor all the way down to St. Aug? Could we be hoping for and subsequently biting off more than we can chew for a 'starter' system?
The starter system can dead end at the Duval county borders. However, I'd have to believe that Clay and St. Johns would be willing to front the dough to tie into the system and reap the benefits. Blanding and US17 can't get any wider, and 210 and US1 are on the brink of becomming another Blanding. They can only win by jumping on board.
QuoteAlong with pwhitford's air of cautious optimism, the question that begs to be asked is "What are the odds that Clay County would be on board for this at all?" And even St. Johns County for that matter, regarding the proposed SE corridor all the way down to St. Aug? Could we be hoping for and subsequently biting off more than we can chew for a 'starter' system?
At this point, its just a feasibility study. I would assume a "starter" system would be to take whatever line is the most feasible and move forward with making it a reality. The others would be part of a master plan and future phases, based on gaining additional funding. Imo, that starter would most likely remain in Duval County, unless the other counties are willing to pay their fair share.
In addition, just because there is a stop there doesn't mean that necesarily every train would stop there. For example, maybe only every other train makes the trip to Yulee or Green Cove Springs. I just got back from London, Paris and Rome and London in particular was huge in to the "conditional stops" thing There were some stations that were only served during rush hour in the morning and afternoon; they would just blow right by during the day. Or, a train would stop running 5 stops to the end, unless it was rush hour or lunchtime.