Over the past 15 years, more than $12 billion in public money has been spent on privately owned stadiums. Between 1991 and 2010, 101 new stadiums were opened across the country; nearly all those projects were funded by taxpayers. The loans most often used to pay for stadium construction—a variety of tax-exempt municipal bonds—will cost the federal government at least $4 billion in taxpayer subsidies to bondholders. Stadiums are built with money borrowed today, against public money spent tomorrow, at the expense of taxes that will never be collected. Economists almost universally agree that publicly financed stadiums are bad investments, yet cities and states still race to the chance to unload the cash. What gives?
http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/the-shady-money-behind-americas-sports-stadiums
Every time I raise this issue, the response is generally "but it'll work for us". Same thing for convention centers.
(http://capitalismisfreedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-20-at-12.30.22-PM.png)
Quote from: finehoe on September 03, 2015, 12:19:01 PM
Over the past 15 years, more than $12 billion in public money has been spent on privately owned stadiums. Between 1991 and 2010, 101 new stadiums were opened across the country; nearly all those projects were funded by taxpayers. The loans most often used to pay for stadium construction—a variety of tax-exempt municipal bonds—will cost the federal government at least $4 billion in taxpayer subsidies to bondholders. Stadiums are built with money borrowed today, against public money spent tomorrow, at the expense of taxes that will never be collected. Economists almost universally agree that publicly financed stadiums are bad investments, yet cities and states still race to the chance to unload the cash. What gives?
http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/the-shady-money-behind-americas-sports-stadiums
simple, no mayor in this country wants to be the one known for losing a NFL team.
Quote from: fsquid on September 03, 2015, 01:22:51 PM
Quote from: finehoe on September 03, 2015, 12:19:01 PM
Over the past 15 years, more than $12 billion in public money has been spent on privately owned stadiums. Between 1991 and 2010, 101 new stadiums were opened across the country; nearly all those projects were funded by taxpayers. The loans most often used to pay for stadium construction—a variety of tax-exempt municipal bonds—will cost the federal government at least $4 billion in taxpayer subsidies to bondholders. Stadiums are built with money borrowed today, against public money spent tomorrow, at the expense of taxes that will never be collected. Economists almost universally agree that publicly financed stadiums are bad investments, yet cities and states still race to the chance to unload the cash. What gives?
http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/the-shady-money-behind-americas-sports-stadiums
simple, no mayor in this country wants to be the one known for losing a NFL team.
While NFL gets the largest benefit due to only hosting 10 games at the most annually, the issue on public funds in sports ventures transcends into other sports as well.
I have seen many minor league baseball teams wooed to a town by a new publically financed stadium. The scale is miniscule compared to most but the issue is the same.
The city of Schaumburg Illinois built a top shelf minor league stadium that sat empty for years until finally an Independent League team made a commitment.
The lure of bringing in new business is huge. Tax revenue from concessions and maintenance contracts and other spin offs is appealing. TV revenue from advertising is a major component in some markets.
In some cases it might work. Some cases it doesnt.
The New York Yankees have owned their own stadium since 1929. But there are only 2 MLB Teams in the entire metropolis. The market scales well for them at 83 home games a year.
The NFL however does not scale at all in any metro area.
Jets and Giants have to share and it took New Jersey tax dollars to make it work. That was with 18 events a year.
So if 2 NFL teams in a market of the size of NYC has to get public dollars to make it happen, then you know the system is getting lopsided.
I might add that St Louis County passed a referendum that any sports facility funding that requires tax dollars has to be put to a public vote.
If all large cities had the same level of accountability in funding models you would see the growth of building stafiums curbed.
Quote from: spuwho on September 03, 2015, 02:22:37 PM
In some cases it might work. Some Most cases it doesnt.
FIFY ;)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 04, 2015, 09:17:18 AM
WTF ever. Do you KNOW how many major companies move here, solely because of the Jaguars and how much money the Jaguars are responsible for bringing to this city?!? Without the video boards and the team, we'd be a step away from being a second world country. This city would not exist if it weren't for the Jags.
This is why we NEED a sarcasm font!
I believe Ed Austin was adamant that landing an NFL team would make Jacksonville a "first tier city". He'd have no reason to lie about that, either.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 04, 2015, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 04, 2015, 09:41:51 AM
I believe Ed Austin was adamant that landing an NFL team would make Jacksonville a "first tier city". He'd have no reason to lie about that, either.
I certainly dont disagree that having an NFL franchise brings us some prestige. However, it is empirically nowhere near what the sycophants would have us believe (just the other day Joe C on 1010XL (who is awful) was saying, "You just can't measure how much money this team has brought to this city."). Also, great, let's have a franchise, just dont do it on my dime and at the expense of actual needed infrastructure, which should be a pretty unobjectionable idea. But, try telling that to the "DURRRRRR! FOOTBAWL!!" crowd.
Are you suggesting that an NFL team called the JACKSONVILLE Jaguars should be paid for entirely by private investors and no city tax money from which they are located? Would they be the Everbank Jaguars or Florida Blue Jaguars, or perhaps the Shad Khan/Iguana Investment Jaguars?
Quote from: PeeJayEss on September 04, 2015, 09:32:55 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 04, 2015, 09:17:18 AM
WTF ever. Do you KNOW how many major companies move here, solely because of the Jaguars and how much money the Jaguars are responsible for bringing to this city?!? Without the video boards and the team, we'd be a step away from being a second world country. This city would not exist if it weren't for the Jags.
This is why we NEED a sarcasm font!
Um..... they installed the sarcasm font to the forum about 3 years ago. This is it. Nobody seems to use the regular font anymore.
Quote from: CCMjax on September 04, 2015, 12:25:32 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 04, 2015, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 04, 2015, 09:41:51 AM
I believe Ed Austin was adamant that landing an NFL team would make Jacksonville a "first tier city". He'd have no reason to lie about that, either.
I certainly dont disagree that having an NFL franchise brings us some prestige. However, it is empirically nowhere near what the sycophants would have us believe (just the other day Joe C on 1010XL (who is awful) was saying, "You just can't measure how much money this team has brought to this city."). Also, great, let's have a franchise, just dont do it on my dime and at the expense of actual needed infrastructure, which should be a pretty unobjectionable idea. But, try telling that to the "DURRRRRR! FOOTBAWL!!" crowd.
Are you suggesting that an NFL team called the JACKSONVILLE Jaguars should be paid for entirely by private investors and no city tax money from which they are located? Would they be the Everbank Jaguars or Florida Blue Jaguars, or perhaps the Shad Khan/Iguana Investment Jaguars?
Yes. They can call the team whatever the fuck they want - like the New England Patriots. Or to use soccer as an example - Celtic, Internazionale, etc.
It should be remembered that the stadium is owned by the city. If the team were to leave the physical assets of the stadium remain the ownership of the City of Jax. Stadium, scoreboards, pools, training facility, etc.
Maybe if I change my nickname to "Jacksonville jph" on here I could score a few hundred thousand from the city. It's a bargain compared to some of these other guys running around using Jacksonville in their name.
Quote from: jph on September 04, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
Maybe if I change my nickname to "Jacksonville jph" on here I could score a few hundred thousand from the city. It's a bargain compared to some of these other guys running around using Jacksonville in their name.
+1000
We may not have... or EVER reach that First Tier status, however, we are certainly among the top dogs in second or third tier cities in this country. Ask anyone from Orlando, Birmingham or Memphis what the one thing Jacksonville has that they'd sell a theme park for? J A G U A R S !
It's a name, a history and a brand that is international. For all of our other weaknesses, this one certainly isn't the one to worry about.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 04, 2015, 06:07:12 PM
We may not have... or EVER reach that First Tier status, however, we are certainly among the top dogs in second or third tier cities in this country. Ask anyone from Orlando, Birmingham or Memphis what the one thing Jacksonville has that they'd sell a theme park for?
J A G U A R S !
It's a name, a history and a brand that is international. For all of our other weaknesses, this one certainly isn't the one to worry about.
Some people work so very hard to not get this one, incredibly simple fact.
Quote from: RattlerGator on September 05, 2015, 12:51:38 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 04, 2015, 06:07:12 PM
We may not have... or EVER reach that First Tier status, however, we are certainly among the top dogs in second or third tier cities in this country. Ask anyone from Orlando, Birmingham or Memphis what the one thing Jacksonville has that they'd sell a theme park for?
J A G U A R S !
It's a name, a history and a brand that is international. For all of our other weaknesses, this one certainly isn't the one to worry about.
Some people work so very hard to not get this one, incredibly simple fact.
So international, in fact, that when I tell people at my office I'm from Jacksonville, they say, "Like in the song?" It took me a while to realize they were talking about "Jackson".
The only people who know the name Jacksonville in London - in my experience - are people who follow the NFL or Limp Bizkit. And most of them couldn't find it on a map.
Quote from: Adam White on September 05, 2015, 04:36:34 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on September 05, 2015, 12:51:38 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 04, 2015, 06:07:12 PM
We may not have... or EVER reach that First Tier status, however, we are certainly among the top dogs in second or third tier cities in this country. Ask anyone from Orlando, Birmingham or Memphis what the one thing Jacksonville has that they'd sell a theme park for?
J A G U A R S !
It's a name, a history and a brand that is international. For all of our other weaknesses, this one certainly isn't the one to worry about.
Some people work so very hard to not get this one, incredibly simple fact.
So international, in fact, that when I tell people at my office I'm from Jacksonville, they say, "Like in the song?" It took me a while to realize they were talking about "Jackson".
The only people who know the name Jacksonville in London - in my experience - are people who follow the NFL or Limp Bizkit. And most of them couldn't find it on a map.
Most people in America outside the southeast don't know where Jacksonville is, just somewhere in Florida, coming from someone who grew up elsewhere. And I would say the Jaguars are the only thing that make people outside the southeast realize Jville actually exists, not Limp Bizkit ha ha! A much cooler band hailing from "Florida's River City" would be Lynyrd Skynyrd. There is a lot of musical history here, much of it has been forgotten though. The only time Jacksonville comes up in conversation in other parts of the country is when football teams are being discussed.
Seems this thread has moved directions to more about JAX than the stadium. But as to jph's comment first I must say I have no association with the jaguars or Shad. Second, his comment does lead to a point I think should be explored. In the 15 years I have lived here, on and off since 1989, one thing I believe does hold us back is a lack of civic pride. (Based on another thread, let me give a warning -I am not accusing jph of lacking civic pride and if I use terms like "us" and "in general" it does not imply all or even most of Jax). That is why I choose my screen name as I did. There are many assets here to take pride in: the river, the beaches, the great art/cultural scene, state parks, craft beer,and yes our sporting scene, including the Jags. The city has many talented people. If more people took pride in our city, I believe we would make better progress to where we want to be. Third, for a city and metro area of this size, taxes are quite low. The tax rate (millage not total $) in some rural counties in WV is higher than here. Our leaders need to realize that a marginally small increase can provide the funding over the next 30 years for development and mass transient improvements. Take pride and build a brand.
Quote from: CCMjax on September 05, 2015, 10:00:35 AM
elsewhere. And I would say the Jaguars are the only thing that make people outside the southeast realize Jville actually exists, not Limp Bizkit ha ha! A much cooler band hailing from "Florida's River City" would be Lynyrd Skynyrd.
^You'd think. But I swear I've had a couple of people know Jax in my office because of Limp Bizkit -and when I brought up Skynyrd, they'd give me a blank stare. I'd have to say "Sweet Home Alabama" and then the penny would drop!
It's mainly the NFL fans, though. But even they don't know much beyond the name of the city and the name of the team. It's like me "knowing" Plovdiv is a city in Bulgaria. That's marginally better than NOT knowing it, but it ain't much.
Quote from: jaxjags on September 05, 2015, 10:04:37 AM
Our leaders need to realize that a marginally small increase can provide the funding over the next 30 years for development and mass transient improvements. Take pride and build a brand.
I agree. I want major improvement to our transient population. ;D Seriously though, your point is right on.
Quote from: Adam White on September 05, 2015, 10:21:42 AM
Quote from: CCMjax on September 05, 2015, 10:00:35 AM
elsewhere. And I would say the Jaguars are the only thing that make people outside the southeast realize Jville actually exists, not Limp Bizkit ha ha! A much cooler band hailing from "Florida's River City" would be Lynyrd Skynyrd.
^You'd think. But I swear I've had a couple of people know Jax in my office because of Limp Bizkit -and when I brought up Skynyrd, they'd give me a blank stare. I'd have to say "Sweet Home Alabama" and then the penny would drop!
It's mainly the NFL fans, though. But even they don't know much beyond the name of the city and the name of the team. It's like me "knowing" Plovdiv is a city in Bulgaria. That's marginally better than NOT knowing it, but it ain't much.
McCartney is a fan of the Jags. That all that matters. ;)
It seems that some of the comments here are by people who really don't care about the sport of football or maybe sports in general for all I know. I try to stay out of these conversations but it's the same people who cry about the money the city spends on the stadium and all things Jaguar. The only defenders are the fans of the NFL and football.
I can see the side of those who feel we shouldn't spend a dime of taxpayers money on the stadium. But as previously noted before the Jaguars came and if they ever leave, the stadium belongs to the city of Jacksonville. So what happens to the stadium if the Jaguars were to leave? There are not a lot of big time events knocking down our doors to lease the stadium.
There are a couple of people who post comments that seem balanced and rational. And let me say that most of the people who have posted negative comments are people that I most often agree with. So my conclusion is you don't like football in general and definitely not the Jaguars in particular. If it matters, and it probably doesn't, I completely have the same opinion as jaxjags.
Oh, and by the way I like Joe C. I'm just curious what makes him so awful.
The Never-Ending Stadium Boondoggle (http://www.citylab.com/politics/2015/09/the-never-ending-stadium-boondoggle/403666/)
QuoteThe overwhelming conclusion of decades of economic research on the subject is that using public funds to subsidize wealthy sports franchises makes zero economic sense and is a giant waste of taxpayer money. A wide (http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/08/do-basketball-arenas-spur-economic-development/2804/) array (http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/america-has-a-stadium-problem-62665) of studies (http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2007/12/27/the-stadium-ruse/) have shown that professional teams add virtually no income to local economies. In fact, some of them find that large subsidies actually have a negative effect, taking money out of the local economy. Aside from the jobs generated by actually building the stadium, most jobs inside the stadium—selling food and beer or working at team concessions—are low-paying temp jobs. It's even worse for football stadiums, which are used for games at most a dozen times a year, and maybe a few more times for concerts or large events. Public economic development dollars can be put to much better use on things besides subsidizing sports teams and their wealthy owners.
In a world of limited resources, the opportunity cost of publicly subsidizing pro sports is simply not worth it. Doesn't take an urban planner to look at a map of Jax and see what is, for all but a couple hours an NFL season, the urban wasteland that is the stadium and its sea of parking lots. This isn't about a hatred for sports or the NFL or billionaires, it's about hatred for wasting resources that could unequivocally be better used elsewhere. I'd wager that from a public cost/benefit perspective that the stadium area and tax dollars would be more productive if razed and turned into an urban park or divvied up and rezoned as a medium-density mixed-use neighborhood.