You have no idea what was once located here!
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4294723408_GQ4s8xW-L.jpg)
Here's five more additions to the Concrete Slabs of Jacksonville series.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-you-have-no-idea-what-was-once-located-here (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-you-have-no-idea-what-was-once-located-here)
On the one hand, I love these stories. On the other hand, they make me really sad. It's kind of hard to see this stuff.
Out of this list, the George Washington really stands out. It literally wasn't given a chance at a second life. It was torn down as quick as it was closed. Less than 8 years from being nice enough to host the Beatles to holding less value than a surface parking lot? 40 years have passed and its foundation still stands as a black hole of dead activity one block from Hemming Park. If it were still around today, as apartments, condos or a boutique hotel, it would have nicely framed that corner of Adams and Julia Streets.
(https://www.cardcow.com/images/set566/card00505_fr.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b1/23/e6/b123e6bc3667b028e60677f6cb84b1cc.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eWT5Ikqad3k/VFePwQNOarI/AAAAAAAALqA/2AmKipwmqtU/s1600/Cyril%2BBrennan%2Bwife%2BWBAM%2BLouise.jpg)
(http://www.imperialclub.com/Yr/1960/1960News/02a-reg.jpg)
The problem was the name. If it had been "The Hotel Robert E. Lee" it would still be standing.
I am not joking.
Viewer discretion is advised. So depressing to see how much of downtown was destroyed. What a lack of creativity...what a lack of vision?
It's both tragic and comical that our city thought it could revitalize LaVilla by tearing everything down, and putting up these 1 to 2 story office buildings with huge fenced-in rear lawns and parking lots. Can someone tell me whether developments like the LaVilla ones of the late 1990s and early 2000s can still be built? Is the city trying to encourage density downtown (even if they are 2 and 3-story buildings)? That is, skyscrapers are NOT the only kind of urban density.
Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on August 25, 2015, 03:00:03 AM
You have no idea what was once located here!
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4294723408_GQ4s8xW-L.jpg)
Here's five more additions to the the Concrete Slabs of Jacksonville series.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-you-have-no-idea-what-was-once-located-here (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-you-have-no-idea-what-was-once-located-here)
Quote from: MusicMan on August 25, 2015, 08:07:50 AM
The problem was the name. If it had been "The Hotel Robert E. Lee" it would still be standing.
I am not joking.
Oh god....I can see where this is heading. Be careful...
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,25089.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,25089.0.html)
Quote from: Adam White on August 25, 2015, 06:07:54 AM
On the one hand, I love these stories. On the other hand, they make me really sad. It's kind of hard to see this stuff.
You beat me to it - very interesting article but depressing at the same time.
Anyway, back on topic....this is truly depressing, but think of the sweet fences we got now!
Lake you're right about the hotel being the most tragic. Something so grand sat empty for just a few years and they tore it down. It's a real shame. What's shocking is that the city is so eager to tear things down again even after this record of harm.
QuoteAccording to a Jax Daily Record article at the time, Jacksonville Economic Development Commission Deputy Director Paul Crawford claimed his office issued the demolition permit because the building was condemned and had no significant historical value. He was also quoted in the article stating, "I imagine there'll be a development plan coming forward in the next couple of years as we get closer to construction of the courthouse".
I am still wondering if those responsible in / for the city actually believe(d) this or if it was just an excuse. A bit of a reverse Field of Dreams - "Demolish it and they (investors) will come"
Sadly, not sure if this mind set has changed.
Quote from: coredumped on August 25, 2015, 10:25:06 AM
Anyway, back on topic....this is truly depressing, but think of the sweet fences we got now!
Lake you're right about the hotel being the most tragic. Something so grand sat empty for just a few years and they tore it down. It's a real shame. What's shocking is that the city is so eager to tear things down again even after this record of harm.
I quite liked the look of the furniture building - at least how it looked in the really old photos.
What I find particularly sad or ironic, is that the hotel was demolished because a parking lot was viewed as the better option. Talk about setting a really bad precedent!
I wonder if those who made the decision back then would've done the same had they known what downtown Jax would turn into.
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: Adam White on August 25, 2015, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: coredumped on August 25, 2015, 10:25:06 AM
Anyway, back on topic....this is truly depressing, but think of the sweet fences we got now!
Lake you're right about the hotel being the most tragic. Something so grand sat empty for just a few years and they tore it down. It's a real shame. What's shocking is that the city is so eager to tear things down again even after this record of harm.
I quite liked the look of the furniture building - at least how it looked in the really old photos.
What I find particularly sad or ironic, is that the hotel was demolished because a parking lot was viewed as the better option. Talk about setting a really bad precedent!
I wonder if those who made the decision back then would've done the same had they known what downtown Jax would turn into.
The demand for parking was incredible. Incredible enough that we destroyed our riverfront to create riverfront parking lots for the city.
But the hidden determinant is that the city charged tax on every square foot of space of the vacant buildings. So a hotel like the George Washington with multiple floors and a large footprint had the same taxation square footage as a couple of blocks of downtown property. There was no allowance for vacant vs occupied space and there were no such things as 'tax breaks' from either the feds or the locals that allowed you to effectively mothball a building.
So a building owner had a couple of choices: Pay taxes on every floor of a building for the next twenty years (there was no chance of the hotel business coming back downtown after they got rid of the passenger rail to ship connection) or tear the building down and turn the tax liability into a revenue producer.
I started doing business downtown in the mid 1980s and this was the prevailing line of discussion amongst most of the old building owners.
The only guys who pretty much refused to tear down their buildings were the old Jewish guys. Bernie Etlinger, Joe La Rose, the Cohens, the Wormans, the Steins. And even then, some of them couldn't afford the mix of property tax and ad valorem assessments on every building that they owned.
The ad valorem taxes imposed by the creation of the DDA and its predecessor organizations were so egregious that it became common knowledge that you could tell how wealthy a businessman was by how downright shoddy his office furniture and equipment was.----There was an ad valorem tax on office furniture and decor----meant to penalize the wealthy businessmen who had spent money making their places look extravagant. The actual effect was the wholesale replacement of antiques and art with beat up old furniture and posters pinned to the wall.
That all seems so backwards. And, if I am correct, I remember reading years ago (in the T-U, I think) that one of the major contributing factors to businesses leaving downtown was that the City offered tax breaks or other financial incentives if they moved to the Southside. I am not sure if this is correct - but if it is, it seems like they actively wanted to destroy the city.
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
It was completely backwards. But once the old guard had managed to finally convince the old City Council that planning should be a part of the City's priorities again (it absolutely had not been for the forty years prior to the mid 70s) they were unable to readjust the priority culture once they had hammered their points home the first time around.
We are still guided by that demolition/need for parking trajectory. It became common wisdom and with the way that the DDA/JEDC/DIA organizations are structured, they do not allow for problem solving or community input. So the same stale, over implemented tropes from the late 1960s and early 1970s are still in place.
The only deviations from the old models are the ones in which real estate has intervened. The last trope that was introduced to the numb skulled way we approach these issues is one straight from real estate: "Retail follows Rooftops". Its an idea from the early 1980s that has been repeated so often that its still accepted as common wisdom. The idea being that 'Residential development causes commercial development, therefore more housing units"
This idea is so ingrained that outcomes from five laboratories of neighborhood development over the past ten years are completely ignored.
Here at metrojacksonville we have been working for ten years to introduce the completely obvious back into the conversation: density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit are the key ingredients to the current paradigm of Urban renewal.
It seems to me that building housing will have limited effect. I think some people might move downtown - and that might lead to more businesses - but that in isolation it won't accomplish much. Without amenities downtown, it will never be a serious contender for residents.
One of the problems I think Jax has is looking for quick fixes and not being willing to spend the money and the time (a long time) to allow things to develop and come to fruition. And I think tearing down buildings is a prime example of looking at a short term "solution" without considering the long-term effects. Maybe a building isn't doing much now - but we have to have faith that if we keep it, it will someday have a new purpose.
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: Adam White on August 25, 2015, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: coredumped on August 25, 2015, 10:25:06 AM
Anyway, back on topic....this is truly depressing, but think of the sweet fences we got now!
Lake you're right about the hotel being the most tragic. Something so grand sat empty for just a few years and they tore it down. It's a real shame. What's shocking is that the city is so eager to tear things down again even after this record of harm.
I quite liked the look of the furniture building - at least how it looked in the really old photos.
What I find particularly sad or ironic, is that the hotel was demolished because a parking lot was viewed as the better option. Talk about setting a really bad precedent!
I wonder if those who made the decision back then would've done the same had they known what downtown Jax would turn into.
The demand for parking was incredible. Incredible enough that we destroyed our riverfront to create riverfront parking lots for the city.
But the hidden determinant is that the city charged tax on every square foot of space of the vacant buildings. So a hotel like the George Washington with multiple floors and a large footprint had the same taxation square footage as a couple of blocks of downtown property. There was no allowance for vacant vs occupied space and there were no such things as 'tax breaks' from either the feds or the locals that allowed you to effectively mothball a building.
So a building owner had a couple of choices: Pay taxes on every floor of a building for the next twenty years (there was no chance of the hotel business coming back downtown after they got rid of the passenger rail to ship connection) or tear the building down and turn the tax liability into a revenue producer.
I started doing business downtown in the mid 1980s and this was the prevailing line of discussion amongst most of the old building owners.
The only guys who pretty much refused to tear down their buildings were the old Jewish guys. Bernie Etlinger, Joe La Rose, the Cohens, the Wormans, the Steins. And even then, some of them couldn't afford the mix of property tax and ad valorem assessments on every building that they owned.
The ad valorem taxes imposed by the creation of the DDA and its predecessor organizations were so egregious that it became common knowledge that you could tell how wealthy a businessman was by how downright shoddy his office furniture and equipment was.----There was an ad valorem tax on office furniture and decor----meant to penalize the wealthy businessmen who had spent money making their places look extravagant. The actual effect was the wholesale replacement of antiques and art with beat up old furniture and posters pinned to the wall.
Very sad. We are certainly paying for past mistakes now. Let's not let the Trio and Barnett and other currently vacant historic buildings in the core fall victim to the same fate. What is the city's position on those?
And sorry if it was mentioned in this thread and I missed it but why was the building at the southeast corner of Forsyth and Jefferson demolished recently? Just because it was vacant? Was there even an owner paying taxes? I remember a while back looking at it in Google Earth and you could see the building from above then going to the street view and it was gone with a backhoe sitting in the middle of the site where it had just recently stood. My heart sank.
So the question is, who in City Hall has the power to reverse things? I have never worked in the public sector but I'm starting to imagine it is a lot like the military . . . don't do anything above your pay grade or SOP, don't try to stand out, don't you dare come in early or stay late to exceed expectations, just do what you were hired to do, fall in line and shut up or else you're going to piss everyone else off around you. And for the record, I don't necessarily disagree with this approach from a military standpoint but our cities are a different animal.
Somebody please tell me how to post a freakin' photo to this site! The simplest of tasks does not seem to be working for me.
Quote from: CCMjax on August 25, 2015, 12:51:38 PM
And sorry if it was mentioned in this thread and I missed it but why was the building at the southeast corner of Forsyth and Jefferson demolished recently? Just because it was vacant? Was there even an owner paying taxes? I remember a while back looking at it in Google Earth and you could see the building from above then going to the street view and it was gone with a backhoe sitting in the middle of the site where it had just recently stood. My heart sank.
Fire:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3731448707_z6tPm98-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3731450536_zrPFn7Z-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-nov-downtown-is-literally-on-fire-davis-furniture-building
Oh snap! Well that explains it. Sucks, that was a nice building shell.
This is all just so damn sad. Especially the George Washington, that is by far the worst loss.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on August 25, 2015, 02:07:46 PM
This is all just so damn sad. Especially the George Washington, that is by far the worst loss.
Jacksonville is not the only city that experienced this demolition craze after 1950. You would be depressed going back in time in pretty much any major city across the nation seeing what was and what currently is on certain downtown blocks even in places like NYC, Chicago, etc. This country has lost some remarkable buildings, a lot due to fire, but also many due to the demand for parking and large office buildings.
What would really really depress you is if you went back in time, grew up in Detroit, and witnessed what happened in that city from 1950 to present day.
Ask Gary. It could always be worse. You could have went from this:
(http://media.chicagomag.com//images/cache/cache_c/cache_8/cache_1/33066-C201204-Fixing-Gary-Indiana-Broadway-1965-b19bb18c.jpeg?ver=1424810942&aspectratio=1.5)
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/April-2012/Can-Karen-Freeman-Wilson-Fix-Gary-Indiana/?mode=popup&cp=6&view=slideshow
To this:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1948675382_MwZdfzc-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1948674119_Zqbt43b-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1948674341_t5hmqnh-M.jpg)
Over the same time period.
Yes, Gary is about as bad as I've seen in this country as far as completely economically devastated and largely abandoned cities. Flint's not too far behind. Both cities almost completely dependent on one industry. At least large parts of Detroit's downtown are still intact and actually quite vibrant. It's mostly the areas just outside of downtown that are very depressing where you have a beautiful old brick mansion a mile from downtown and the rest of the street has been completely leveled, then you realize there was a time when the entire street was lined with beautiful brick mansions side by side in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods not only in Detroit but in the country. I'm talking about parts of Midtown which is now undergoing a huge revitalization effort but still has a ways to go.
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
Here at metrojacksonville we have been working for ten years to introduce the completely obvious back into the conversation: density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit are the key ingredients to the current paradigm of Urban renewal.
SD - is this a conversation that involves city officials or just a bunch of enthusiastic MJers. If so, how has the conversation been going???
Quote from: CCMjax on August 25, 2015, 03:56:07 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
Here at metrojacksonville we have been working for ten years to introduce the completely obvious back into the conversation: density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit are the key ingredients to the current paradigm of Urban renewal.
SD - is this a conversation that involves city officials or just a bunch of enthusiastic MJers. If so, how has the conversation been going???
density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit - all created with a strong economy and jobs, not vice versa. Jacksonville is a relatively poor city with little remaining indigenous economy and no industry to speak of and what stands in for the economy are low level regional and back office stuff that compels people to move on to advance.
That's harsh. I think people opine on this site because we think Jax could do way more with what it's got. Yes, it's not a very wealthy city, but again, it could do much more with what it has with some relatively small changes and a certain amount of pride and advocacy.
Quote from: Sentient on August 25, 2015, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 25, 2015, 03:56:07 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
Here at metrojacksonville we have been working for ten years to introduce the completely obvious back into the conversation: density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit are the key ingredients to the current paradigm of Urban renewal.
SD - is this a conversation that involves city officials or just a bunch of enthusiastic MJers. If so, how has the conversation been going???
density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit - all created with a strong economy and jobs, not vice versa. Jacksonville is a relatively poor city with little remaining indigenous economy and no industry to speak of and what stands in for the economy are low level regional and back office stuff that compels people to move on to advance.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 25, 2015, 04:16:00 PM
That's harsh. I think people opine on this site because we think Jax could do way more with what it's got. Yes, it's not a very wealthy city, but again, it could do much more with what it has with some relatively small changes and a certain amount of pride and advocacy.
Quote from: Sentient on August 25, 2015, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 25, 2015, 03:56:07 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
Here at metrojacksonville we have been working for ten years to introduce the completely obvious back into the conversation: density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit are the key ingredients to the current paradigm of Urban renewal.
SD - is this a conversation that involves city officials or just a bunch of enthusiastic MJers. If so, how has the conversation been going???
density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit - all created with a strong economy and jobs, not vice versa. Jacksonville is a relatively poor city with little remaining indigenous economy and no industry to speak of and what stands in for the economy are low level regional and back office stuff that compels people to move on to advance.
Agreed, too harsh. Jacksonville has a lot more going for it than many posters realize and small changes can make a huuuuuge difference. I think it was Lake that posted a while back, for example, that changing a couple words in the zoning code for certain commercial zones can eliminate parking between the sidewalk and storefront for new construction, thus pushing the storefront closer to the street creating a more pedestrian friendly streetscape and denser feel in some of the core neighborhoods. You see entire neighborhoods transform because of some of these small changes in other cities, even in second and third tier cities without booming economies.
Precisely! I heard there is a looming project to rewrite the zoning code, but I don't know the timing.
Quote from: CCMjax on August 25, 2015, 05:36:31 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 25, 2015, 04:16:00 PM
That's harsh. I think people opine on this site because we think Jax could do way more with what it's got. Yes, it's not a very wealthy city, but again, it could do much more with what it has with some relatively small changes and a certain amount of pride and advocacy.
Quote from: Sentient on August 25, 2015, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 25, 2015, 03:56:07 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
Here at metrojacksonville we have been working for ten years to introduce the completely obvious back into the conversation: density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit are the key ingredients to the current paradigm of Urban renewal.
SD - is this a conversation that involves city officials or just a bunch of enthusiastic MJers. If so, how has the conversation been going???
density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit - all created with a strong economy and jobs, not vice versa. Jacksonville is a relatively poor city with little remaining indigenous economy and no industry to speak of and what stands in for the economy are low level regional and back office stuff that compels people to move on to advance.
Agreed, too harsh. Jacksonville has a lot more going for it than many posters realize and small changes can make a huuuuuge difference. I think it was Lake that posted a while back, for example, that changing a couple words in the zoning code for certain commercial zones can eliminate parking between the sidewalk and storefront for new construction, thus pushing the storefront closer to the street creating a more pedestrian friendly streetscape and denser feel in some of the core neighborhoods. You see entire neighborhoods transform because of some of these small changes in other cities, even in second and third tier cities without booming economies.
Overhauling the zoning code was something that was looked into before the previous mayoral administration took office. Priorities changed and no movement was made. Hopefully, it is something revisited soon. There are some areas of Jax that would significantly benefit from an overhaul.
I recently sent a brief and respectful email to Lori Boyer complaining about business signage and streetscape aesthetics, and she thanked me for my email and said she would add this to the list of "zoning issues we need to address." From that response, I took that she is looking into modernizing the zoning code.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2015, 07:30:31 PM
Overhauling the zoning code was something that was looked into before the previous mayoral administration took office. Priorities changed and no movement was made. Hopefully, it is something revisited soon. There are some areas of Jax that would significantly benefit from an overhaul.
IMO our Chamber of Commerce kind of sucks, too.
Back to the subject of preserving history . . . below is a link to a project in Kalamazoo, MI right on one of the main historic streets downtown. In this case, as well as a very similar multi-building project down the street from it, they replicated the building facades and materials from the original buildings that had been torn down for whatever reason. It's been a couple years since I've been back and have only seen the other project down the street but it is almost impossible to tell the facades are replicas, they did a very good job (real brink not thin brick). There are small clues that the trained eye will pick up on like cornice joint spacing and detailing but to the average person, and even the trained eye for that matter, the end product is very impressive and has certainly added to the attractiveness of the downtown community I think more so than your standard modern infill with cheap paneling and glazing would have. It's a pretty cool concept to regain some reference to the history that is lost when buildings are torn down. And really, it just looks like a fixed up old building. This is something that perhaps Jacksonville could consider for the sites of some of the great buildings that have been torn down on those sites currently occupied by cracking crumbling former slabs of the magnificent buildings that once stood there.
http://www.devisserplace.com/
(http://www.devisserplace.com/images/index.jpg)
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 04:16:19 PM
Quote from: Sentient on August 25, 2015, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 25, 2015, 03:56:07 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
Here at metrojacksonville we have been working for ten years to introduce the completely obvious back into the conversation: density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit are the key ingredients to the current paradigm of Urban renewal.
SD - is this a conversation that involves city officials or just a bunch of enthusiastic MJers. If so, how has the conversation been going???
density, urban vibrancy and intelligent transit - all created with a strong economy and jobs, not vice versa. Jacksonville is a relatively poor city with little remaining indigenous economy and no industry to speak of and what stands in for the economy are low level regional and back office stuff that compels people to move on to advance.
you mean that is your off the cuff theory, right?
Like not based on reality or observable data.
Because your post sounds like something Uncle Fester would say to make himself sound all-knowing. ;)
in reality it happens literally the reverse of what you've described.
And you provide what to support your view Stephen? Nothing it seems.
It's axiomatic that people cannot populate a place to sufficient density if they can't afford anything. I'll grant that once a critical mass is reached a virtuous cycle is created and more compounds more. But always that more is built on a base of something economically.
Love to see an example of a city that developed without commerce and industry as a base. hell even Las Vegas was built upon something...
Jax just does not have enough to propel it to the next level. all of your posts support this - we need this, we need that, etc etc.
If there were a large number of high paying jobs with career advancement opportunities, backed by a strong industry - people would be flocking to jax in droves. as it is the people that do come here tend to be military, retirees or low level workers.
QuoteIf there were a large number of high paying jobs with career advancement opportunities, backed by a strong industry - people would be flocking to jax in droves. as it is the people that do come here tend to be military, retirees or low level workers.
^Are you familiar with Norfolk, VA? What makes its downtown more lively? The economy is about the same as Jax, they tore down just as much, the MSA's layout is similar, more people live in Virginia Beach (the "Southside/Beaches" of Hampton Roads) than Norfolk, yet Norfolk's downtown is more vibrant.
Great article.