Imagine if we could turn Edgewood Avenue from this:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Murray-Hill-June-2010/i-dNZ4vm8/0/L/P1360952-L.jpg)
Into this:
(http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz213/vmwp/compton_01.jpg)
or this:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Coral-Gables-Nov2010/i-mCwqbp7/0/L/P1420737-L.jpg)
Nice . . . Murray Hill is like Avondale on a budget except it needs some work to even become that. Some streetscape work would go a long way to make it a little more appealing to both customers and businesses. And if there ever is a commuter rail in Jacksonville that would make a great stop.
Quote from: CCMjax on August 21, 2015, 07:54:41 AM
Nice . . . Murray Hill is like Avondale on a budget except it needs some work to even become that. Some streetscape work would go a long way to make it a little more appealing to both customers and businesses. And if there ever is a commuter rail in Jacksonville that would make a great stop.
Streetscaping would go a long way, but it'll take a lot of effort to maintain all of that foliage going forward. Right now they can't even maintain the one piece of landscaping at the end of the crosswalk of Edgewood and Mayflower; it's completely overgrown and makes visibility at that intersection difficult.
Riverside-Avondale is certainly no better at this itself. The streetscaping on King St. is becoming overgrown with Bermuda grass, and Ingleside has been an overgrown disaster for years.
QuoteRiverside-Avondale is certainly no better at this itself. The streetscaping on King St. is becoming overgrown with Bermuda grass, and Ingleside has been an overgrown disaster for years.
Need a strong Merchant Community. Gary and Sandy Polenta (former owners of Edgewood Bakery) were the last Presidents of the MHPA Merchant Community. It disbanded and no one has really picked up the ball to run with it. Someone in the merchant community needs to step up.
That drawing looks like a Rouse drawing, reminds me of those that came out of the closet for the 1985 drawings of the Jacksonville Landing.
Need to slow down the racetrack known as Edgewood, turn it into 1 way each way with landscaping down the middle. Councilman Warren Jones ran out of time before he could work on that project.
With a bunch of new businesses in the area, maybe one of the new owners is looking to bring back the MHPA Merchants association?
Quote from: johnnyliar on August 21, 2015, 11:37:54 AM
With a bunch of new businesses in the area, maybe one of the new owners is looking to bring back the MHPA Merchants association?
Now that they have a young and energetic landlord in the area, Max, maybe they can get something going.
Love the conceptuals, Ennis.
I wonder what exactly the JTA has in store should they receive the TIGER grants. The streets are wide enough to get pretty creative.
Quote from: johnnyliar on August 21, 2015, 11:37:54 AM
With a bunch of new businesses in the area, maybe one of the new owners is looking to bring back the MHPA Merchants association?
This would be awesome. Finally met with Will of Vagabond and guys like him will blow this neighborhood up in no time at all.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 21, 2015, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: johnnyliar on August 21, 2015, 11:37:54 AM
With a bunch of new businesses in the area, maybe one of the new owners is looking to bring back the MHPA Merchants association?
Now that they have a young and energetic landlord in the area, Max, maybe they can get something going.
hahaha. We'll do what we can. I'm working diligently to present the potential of the area to the right people...if we get a charette organized I'm also hoping it will be a way to showcase the passion and support of the community. I know Vagabond's opening is displaying that already.
I would love to see this happen in Murray Hill. I live in Murray Hill there is much potential to improve this area !!
Quote from: Dionna on August 21, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I would love to see this happen in Murray Hill. I live in Murray Hill there is much potential to improve this area !!
Kind of like St. Nicholas. Similar neighborhoods right next to vibrant higher priced neighborhoods.
Driving down Edgewood ave, the street is just unattractive..Streetscape would be nice.
Please make sure to plant Palm trees and not any other shrub
Then my experience of sitting at the perfect rack while sipping bourbin will be complete
What is really sad is that even Edgewood Bakery's median (in front of the store) and streetscape is overgrown with weeds and looks like crap.
It always kills me that that convince store with the hideous yellow paint was allowed to open there. Talk about a ding on the neighborhood.
https://goo.gl/maps/tEmxV (https://goo.gl/maps/tEmxV)
That convenience store been yellow for very long time.
Stop nitpicking. Yellow is traditional southern color
As if tall grass and yellow paint make Edgewood lame.
Nevermind the crime, the litter, the homeless, and 3 dozen boarded up properties
Quote from: CCMjax on August 21, 2015, 10:37:31 PM
Quote from: Dionna on August 21, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I would love to see this happen in Murray Hill. I live in Murray Hill there is much potential to improve this area !!
Kind of like St. Nicholas. Similar neighborhoods right next to vibrant higher priced neighborhoods.
I see redevelopment frenzies of neighborhoods like Murray Hill happening in cities all across the country and all across the world. Why can't Jax get more going with its in-town neighborhoods? Sure there are small-scale things underway, but nothing on a grand scale. You drive 2 or 3 minutes in an in-town Jax neighborhood, see a small nice and tidy stretch, and then you're back to something shabby-looking or back to tall signs and strip centers akin to some sort of highway truck stop. Is the "city" just far poorer and in worse shape than we realize, and no one is in crisis mode because the sad state of affairs is diluted by consolidation? I mean, any county can have clear-cutting of pine trees and a wal-mart-anchored strip center built. But if there's no dense and vibrant build-out of the in-town zones, then the city is nothing to get worked up about...no?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 21, 2015, 02:46:33 PM
Love the conceptuals, Ennis.
I wonder what exactly the JTA has in store should they receive the TIGER grants. The streets are wide enough to get pretty creative.
Quote from: johnnyliar on August 21, 2015, 11:37:54 AM
With a bunch of new businesses in the area, maybe one of the new owners is looking to bring back the MHPA Merchants association?
This would be awesome. Finally met with Will of Vagabond and guys like him will blow this neighborhood up in no time at all.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 21, 2015, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: johnnyliar on August 21, 2015, 11:37:54 AM
With a bunch of new businesses in the area, maybe one of the new owners is looking to bring back the MHPA Merchants association?
Now that they have a young and energetic landlord in the area, Max, maybe they can get something going.
hahaha. We'll do what we can. I'm working diligently to present the potential of the area to the right people...if we get a charette organized I'm also hoping it will be a way to showcase the passion and support of the community. I know Vagabond's opening is displaying that already.
Very much looking to help form a citizen/merchant group to get MH jumpstarted. Bought into the neighborhood last December and want to make it thrive. How can we all get together and pump some life into the neighborhood?
Please fund my new coffee shop or bread oven with your own cash and I'll bring my commerce to MH
even the stone declaring MH's founding is broken in half.
That's sad.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 24, 2015, 01:51:45 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 21, 2015, 10:37:31 PM
Quote from: Dionna on August 21, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I would love to see this happen in Murray Hill. I live in Murray Hill there is much potential to improve this area !!
Kind of like St. Nicholas. Similar neighborhoods right next to vibrant higher priced neighborhoods.
I see redevelopment frenzies of neighborhoods like Murray Hill happening in cities all across the country and all across the world. Why can't Jax get more going with its in-town neighborhoods? Sure there are small-scale things underway, but nothing on a grand scale. You drive 2 or 3 minutes in an in-town Jax neighborhood, see a small nice and tidy stretch, and then you're back to something shabby-looking or back to tall signs and strip centers akin to some sort of highway truck stop. Is the "city" just far poorer and in worse shape than we realize, and no one is in crisis mode because the sad state of affairs is diluted by consolidation? I mean, any county can have clear-cutting of pine trees and a wal-mart-anchored strip center built. But if there's no dense and vibrant build-out of the in-town zones, then the city is nothing to get worked up about...no?
Well, I can tell you this . . . . I have never before lived in a city with such a high ratio of young professionals living in suburban settings (Southside and even Bartram Park) vs core neighborhoods. That is what hurts Jax, so many young people living far away from the core. There are other economically struggling cities across the country that manage to be sprucing up neighborhoods and downtowns easier than Jax (See Cleveland, Louisville, Kansas City, Birmingham, etc.). The thing they have in common is their downtowns are centrally located so there isn't really any other major focal point in the metro areas. Here in Jax the beach pulls a lot of young residents to the east and southeast so the centroid of the population is kind of shifted away from the core. That definitely encourages the sprawl and strip style development. Here in Jax it seems a lot of young people are willing to live in suburban apartments to be half way between downtown and the beach. If there were more updated apartment options in San Marco and St. Nicholas (not that much further to the beach compared to Southside/Tinsletown) I think you might see more younger people moving from the Southside to these neighborhoods. But just do an apartment search in those neighborhoods and all that really comes up are outdated sketchy apartments far away from the square or luxury apartments that may be out of their price range. Needs to be something in between similar to Riverside 220/The Brooklyn going on in maybe east San Marco/St. Nicholas to provide those looking for modern amenities in a core neighborhood. But right now Jax is too spread out and the city doesn't seem to be too interested in doing anything about it like other currently car-centric cities are.
I bought my house in Murray Hill last year and I love it (I'm also 23, millennial here)
I have had no problems with crime, litter or homeless people.
If I didn't have all electric gardening equipment, then I would just volunteer my time to trim up the areas. I know MHPA has done it a couple of times but it just takes time/money.
I wouldn't say that those companies were in dire need of those funds. I see it as community support. The community wanted their product sooner than later.
I wouldn't compare st. Nicholas to Murray Hill. I think lake Shore is a better comparison. Those two neighborhoods are more closely related. That's just my opinion from going house shopping.
Good points. I'm no expert on the zoning code, but I wonder if our zoning laws impede in-town progress and encourage sprawl-like auto-centric design moreso than in other cities? Also, is our city council set up like comparable cities? I once heard that Jax council members aren't really full-time and aren't paid as though they are full-time. Anyone have any insights into this? Do improvement initiatives languish because of this...moreso than in other places?
Quote from: CCMjax on August 24, 2015, 05:40:30 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 24, 2015, 01:51:45 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 21, 2015, 10:37:31 PM
Quote from: Dionna on August 21, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I would love to see this happen in Murray Hill. I live in Murray Hill there is much potential to improve this area !!
Kind of like St. Nicholas. Similar neighborhoods right next to vibrant higher priced neighborhoods.
I see redevelopment frenzies of neighborhoods like Murray Hill happening in cities all across the country and all across the world. Why can't Jax get more going with its in-town neighborhoods? Sure there are small-scale things underway, but nothing on a grand scale. You drive 2 or 3 minutes in an in-town Jax neighborhood, see a small nice and tidy stretch, and then you're back to something shabby-looking or back to tall signs and strip centers akin to some sort of highway truck stop. Is the "city" just far poorer and in worse shape than we realize, and no one is in crisis mode because the sad state of affairs is diluted by consolidation? I mean, any county can have clear-cutting of pine trees and a wal-mart-anchored strip center built. But if there's no dense and vibrant build-out of the in-town zones, then the city is nothing to get worked up about...no?
Well, I can tell you this . . . . I have never before lived in a city with such a high ratio of young professionals living in suburban settings (Southside and even Bartram Park) vs core neighborhoods. That is what hurts Jax, so many young people living far away from the core. There are other economically struggling cities across the country that manage to be sprucing up neighborhoods and downtowns easier than Jax (See Cleveland, Louisville, Kansas City, Birmingham, etc.). The thing they have in common is their downtowns are centrally located so there isn't really any other major focal point in the metro areas. Here in Jax the beach pulls a lot of young residents to the east and southeast so the centroid of the population is kind of shifted away from the core. That definitely encourages the sprawl and strip style development. Here in Jax it seems a lot of young people are willing to live in suburban apartments to be half way between downtown and the beach. If there were more updated apartment options in San Marco and St. Nicholas (not that much further to the beach compared to Southside/Tinsletown) I think you might see more younger people moving from the Southside to these neighborhoods. But just do an apartment search in those neighborhoods and all that really comes up are outdated sketchy apartments far away from the square or luxury apartments that may be out of their price range. Needs to be something in between similar to Riverside 220/The Brooklyn going on in maybe east San Marco/St. Nicholas to provide those looking for modern amenities in a core neighborhood. But right now Jax is too spread out and the city doesn't seem to be too interested in doing anything about it like other currently car-centric cities are.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 24, 2015, 06:33:53 PM
Good points. I'm no expert on the zoning code, but I wonder if our zoning laws impede in-town progress and encourage sprawl-like auto-centric design moreso than in other cities? Also, is our city council set up like comparable cities? I once heard that Jax council members aren't really full-time and aren't paid as though they are full-time. Anyone have any insights into this? Do improvement initiatives languish because of this...moreso than in other places?
Quote from: CCMjax on August 24, 2015, 05:40:30 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 24, 2015, 01:51:45 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 21, 2015, 10:37:31 PM
Quote from: Dionna on August 21, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I would love to see this happen in Murray Hill. I live in Murray Hill there is much potential to improve this area !!
Kind of like St. Nicholas. Similar neighborhoods right next to vibrant higher priced neighborhoods.
I see redevelopment frenzies of neighborhoods like Murray Hill happening in cities all across the country and all across the world. Why can't Jax get more going with its in-town neighborhoods? Sure there are small-scale things underway, but nothing on a grand scale. You drive 2 or 3 minutes in an in-town Jax neighborhood, see a small nice and tidy stretch, and then you're back to something shabby-looking or back to tall signs and strip centers akin to some sort of highway truck stop. Is the "city" just far poorer and in worse shape than we realize, and no one is in crisis mode because the sad state of affairs is diluted by consolidation? I mean, any county can have clear-cutting of pine trees and a wal-mart-anchored strip center built. But if there's no dense and vibrant build-out of the in-town zones, then the city is nothing to get worked up about...no?
Well, I can tell you this . . . . I have never before lived in a city with such a high ratio of young professionals living in suburban settings (Southside and even Bartram Park) vs core neighborhoods. That is what hurts Jax, so many young people living far away from the core. There are other economically struggling cities across the country that manage to be sprucing up neighborhoods and downtowns easier than Jax (See Cleveland, Louisville, Kansas City, Birmingham, etc.). The thing they have in common is their downtowns are centrally located so there isn't really any other major focal point in the metro areas. Here in Jax the beach pulls a lot of young residents to the east and southeast so the centroid of the population is kind of shifted away from the core. That definitely encourages the sprawl and strip style development. Here in Jax it seems a lot of young people are willing to live in suburban apartments to be half way between downtown and the beach. If there were more updated apartment options in San Marco and St. Nicholas (not that much further to the beach compared to Southside/Tinsletown) I think you might see more younger people moving from the Southside to these neighborhoods. But just do an apartment search in those neighborhoods and all that really comes up are outdated sketchy apartments far away from the square or luxury apartments that may be out of their price range. Needs to be something in between similar to Riverside 220/The Brooklyn going on in maybe east San Marco/St. Nicholas to provide those looking for modern amenities in a core neighborhood. But right now Jax is too spread out and the city doesn't seem to be too interested in doing anything about it like other currently car-centric cities are.
I don't think any of them are full time. They have their other jobs like Bishop is an architect. And I'm not sure how it works in other cities but I would assume it's the same thing at least in smaller cities.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 24, 2015, 01:51:45 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 21, 2015, 10:37:31 PM
Quote from: Dionna on August 21, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I would love to see this happen in Murray Hill. I live in Murray Hill there is much potential to improve this area !!
Kind of like St. Nicholas. Similar neighborhoods right next to vibrant higher priced neighborhoods.
I see redevelopment frenzies of neighborhoods like Murray Hill happening in cities all across the country and all across the world. Why can't Jax get more going with its in-town neighborhoods? Sure there are small-scale things underway, but nothing on a grand scale. You drive 2 or 3 minutes in an in-town Jax neighborhood, see a small nice and tidy stretch, and then you're back to something shabby-looking or back to tall signs and strip centers akin to some sort of highway truck stop. Is the "city" just far poorer and in worse shape than we realize, and no one is in crisis mode because the sad state of affairs is diluted by consolidation? I mean, any county can have clear-cutting of pine trees and a wal-mart-anchored strip center built. But if there's no dense and vibrant build-out of the in-town zones, then the city is nothing to get worked up about...no?
What are you comparing Jax with? Jax is a much smaller city than most realize. Consolidation masks this fact. For the most part, what you see in Jax, will be similar in scale and density to its southern peers (ex. Memphis, Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, etc.).
When Jax merged with Duval County, the actual city (what we consider the urban core now) was similar in size as places like Flint,MI, Worcester, MA, and Richmond, VA. Cities like Dayton, OH and Syracuse, NY were slightly bigger. Since that time, we've lost 50% of the old city's population. Up until recent years, all of our population growth has been suburban since the 1950s.
I probably did have the wrong peer group.
Quote from: CCMjax on August 24, 2015, 05:40:30 PM
Well, I can tell you this . . . . I have never before lived in a city with such a high ratio of young professionals living in suburban settings (Southside and even Bartram Park) vs core neighborhoods.
I still consider myself to be a young professional and just about all of my college friends who live in Atlanta (there's a ton of them), live in the burbs. Same goes for most of my friends who live in Orlando and Tampa. Of my friends who live in DC, it's about half and half suburbs vs. the city. In other words, I don't think Jax is alone in having a large number of young professionals residing in suburbs. I believe this is an area where we sometimes overlook the fact of Jax being a much smaller urban area than its "city limits" population suggests. We're Grand Rapids, not Boston, Miami, Atlanta or even Orlando. Once we accept that fact, you'll see structurally, we're in line with most of the others in the 40 to 50 range of America's largest MSAs.
QuoteThat is what hurts Jax, so many young people living far away from the core. There are other economically struggling cities across the country that manage to be sprucing up neighborhoods and downtowns easier than Jax (See Cleveland, Louisville, Kansas City, Birmingham, etc.). The thing they have in common is their downtowns are centrally located so there isn't really any other major focal point in the metro areas.
^I'm not sure this is a real problem. I believe it's more perception than anything else, based on the cities being compared.
One thing I've always done when making decisions on what to see, travel to, etc. on my roadtrips is to check a city's 1950 size, population and density.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab18.txt
This was the last census before sprawl took over and cities started annexing. Even in 2015, it's a decent barometer in determining the general scale and built density of a city's core area. Looking at the list of cities mentioned, here's their info from the 1950 census:
US Rank -- City -- Population -- Land Area (sq. miles) -- Density (ppsm)
7 Cleveland city, OH....... 914,808 75.0 12,197
20 Kansas City city, MO..... 456,622 80.6 5,665
30 Louisville city, KY...... 369,129 39.9 9,251
34 Birmingham city, AL...... 326,037 65.3 4,993
49 Jacksonville city, FL.... 204,517 30.2 6,772
Cleveland was one of the country's largest cities. Despite its fall from grace, it has a ton of early 20th century built infrastructure remaining from an era before suburbs reigned. The others are closer to Jacksonville's density but for the most part, that level of density extended over a much larger land area (three times the scale of Jax, in Kansas City's case).
With that said, other then their central business districts being larger in scale, there's not much of a difference between Birmingham and Louisville's urban neighborhoods and Jax's, IMO. Also, during my last visit to Birmingham (about two years ago), it felt that Jax's Northbank was more lively. To me, the better part of Birmingham was the Southside, around UAB and Five Points. I wasn't really impressed with Louisville's downtown during my last visit there as well. Seems like Old Louisville and the Highlands were more interesting environments to spend time in.
I spent a few days in Kansas City in 2010. No doubt about it, it was just flat out larger than Jax during a time when communities were built to be walkable. For example, Jax never had early 20th century industrial districts the scale of the Crossroads, Garment District, West Bottoms, etc.
QuoteHere in Jax the beach pulls a lot of young residents to the east and southeast so the centroid of the population is kind of shifted away from the core. That definitely encourages the sprawl and strip style development. Here in Jax it seems a lot of young people are willing to live in suburban apartments to be half way between downtown and the beach. If there were more updated apartment options in San Marco and St. Nicholas (not that much further to the beach compared to Southside/Tinsletown) I think you might see more younger people moving from the Southside to these neighborhoods. But just do an apartment search in those neighborhoods and all that really comes up are outdated sketchy apartments far away from the square or luxury apartments that may be out of their price range. Needs to be something in between similar to Riverside 220/The Brooklyn going on in maybe east San Marco/St. Nicholas to provide those looking for modern amenities in a core neighborhood. But right now Jax is too spread out and the city doesn't seem to be too interested in doing anything about it like other currently car-centric cities are.
I still don't have a full grasp on why Jax didn't see the type of development most of its peers experienced during the real estate boom 10 years ago. Before the super bowl, it seemed like great things were head and the wheels fell off when the NFL circus packed up and left town. I also believe that is more housing stock were available in the urban core, you'd easily see more people there. I hope the success of the Brooklyn projects will open the flood gates to a market that's been largely ignored by the local development community.
Quote from: benfranklinbof on August 24, 2015, 06:31:40 PM
I bought my house in Murray Hill last year and I love it (I'm also 23, millennial here)
I have had no problems with crime, litter or homeless people.
If I didn't have all electric gardening equipment, then I would just volunteer my time to trim up the areas. I know MHPA has done it a couple of times but it just takes time/money.
I'm also a young and recent homeowner in Murray Hill (25, bought my house last year.)
Everything you said is exactly in line with my experience here in Murray Hill.
Also, all the hate on crowdfunded businesses is just funny to me now. Stop being so salty.
We wanted a coffee house in Murray Hill, we wanted a bakery, so we helped fund it when the opportunity arose.
Now I can enjoy fresh bread and coffee within a five minute walk from my house. It's an investment that I'm glad I made, and If you don't get it, just shut up about it already and go to starbucks and panera.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2015, 09:25:54 PM
I also believe that if more housing stock were available in the urban core, you'd easily see more people there.
I would agree with this.
Unfortunately the majority of the residential projects on either side of the river in the core were only getting started as the bubble was bursting. The Strand had to change it's model from sales to rentals, The Peninsula was iffy, but it would have been more costly for ALV to back out than to just finish and Vu never happened. Along with the other 4-5 high-rise, luxury condo plans that were still floating around in the early, mid-2000s.
Ask anyone from Auchter how they feel about the multi-family housing market...
The garage collapse at Berkman2 could be viewed as a blessing in disguise depending on which side of that project you were on.
I guess my point being this: If those and the other projects would have been started 2-3 years earlier, we would be having a completely different discussion about the state of the core right now. The market would have still crashed. The recession would have still happened. But.... We would have a few thousand units filled up on the banks of the St. Johns right now.
Very true. I also believe Kuhn's Barnett and Laura Trio projects would have gotten built (although he still would have lost his shirt) if they didn't get delayed with debates on chilled water lines and windows.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2015, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: CCMjax on August 24, 2015, 05:40:30 PM
Well, I can tell you this . . . . I have never before lived in a city with such a high ratio of young professionals living in suburban settings (Southside and even Bartram Park) vs core neighborhoods.
I still consider myself to be a young professional and just about all of my college friends who live in Atlanta (there's a ton of them), live in the burbs. Same goes for most of my friends who live in Orlando and Tampa. Of my friends who live in DC, it's about half and half suburbs vs. the city. In other words, I don't think Jax is alone in having a large number of young professionals residing in suburbs. I believe this is an area where we sometimes overlook the fact of Jax being a much smaller urban area than its "city limits" population suggests. We're Grand Rapids, not Boston, Miami, Atlanta or even Orlando. Once we accept that fact, you'll see structurally, we're in line with most of the others in the 40 to 50 range of America's largest MSAs.
Atlanta, Orlando and Tampa are not exactly model cities either and have been known for being extremely suburban large cities for a long time. In my post grad years in Chicago I recall maybe one or two friends that lived in the suburbs other than Evanston (and hated it and couldn't wait to move to the city). DC is different, many of the suburbs are a lot like the city, Arlington for example, but still many many young people live in the city. I guess for me moving from Chicago to Jax it was quite the shock to see so many young people content with living in very bland suburban settings that don't really offer much excitement for a 20 something year old unless you drive 10 to 15 miles down the road. Personally, I would either want to be at the beach or in a core neighborhood, but that's just me. I guess if you're used to it it is not such a big deal.
I sort of agree with the Grand Rapids vs Jax argument. I'm from Kalamazoo, not too far away. The nice thing about GR is it has a more historic compact downtown with lots of young people living in the old converted loft style apartments on the south end of downtown. It didn't always used to be like that, a lot of those nice old buildings were just sitting there vacant for a long time. I am very thankful that they did not decide to tear those buildings down decades ago when people were leaving the cities.
Yes, going from a first tier city like Chicago, to one that is in a tier of urbanity well below that of St. Louis, will give you culture shock.
To put the core of walkable pre-suburban Jax into a Chicagoland perspective, Jax and Gary were roughly around the same size when Jax merged with Duval County (Jax 204k & Gary 178k). Imagine Gary being a principal city with a diversified economy and no Chicago nearby. Then, add +50 years of autocentric growth around 1960s Gary. Throw in great weather and palm trees and you'll have 2015 Jacksonville. A downtown Gary (pre-economic freefall, of course!) surrounded by +700 square miles of autocentric sprawl.
The core of Grand Rapids (176k in 1950) is pretty comparable to Jax's (204k in 1950). Chicago, which had 900,000 more residents in 1950 than it had in 2014, is a very bad comparison.
My last visit to Grand Rapids was in 2008. There were two big things I noticed that stood out between the two similar sized communities.
1. Grand Rapids did not demolish much of its core at the level Jax did between the 1950s and 1990s. So there are more older buildings still around that have been converted into housing and other uses, as city living is popular again. After all, typically it's a lot cheaper to acquire a small existing building and retrofit it into a new use, than acquire a vacant downtown parcel and build something comparable from the ground up.
2. Jax's skyline mushroomed during the 1970s and 1980s, making it appear more robust and "big city" from afar (sort of like Midland, TX's skyline built by West Texas oil companies during the same era.). Unfortunately, many of those companies building crystal palaces for their local HQ operations, no longer exist. So we have a glut of available space that a city of similar size (with a much smaller skyline) does not. Another negative impact of a growing skyline late 20th century skyline was the demolition of older pedestrian scale building fabric to accommodate the larger buildings of that era, which happened to be a lot more autocentric.
Since what was once unpopular is now popular again, the cities that didn't destroy most of that old building fabric, now benefit from having a ton of those old unique structures still being available (ex. Savannah, Charleston, etc.). In the case of Grand Rapids, after 15 years of having those once abandoned buildings re-purposed, the city's core now has a 85% occupancy rate.
http://www.grbj.com/articles/81314-downtown-grand-rapids-is-booming
Does Len Curry have any grand visions for Jax? When I say Jax, I'm not referring to the county lands. I'm talking about the core city, which appears to be in bad and/or shabby shape in driving around. I don't quite recall his platform for the urban core. After he balances the budget, then what. Jax (ex-consolidation factor) appears quite distressed. Again, I'm judging the city, not the 'burbs, which in most other metros, wouldn't be counted as the city. By way of background, I graduated from UF, worked and lived in Manhattan the past 11 years, and am considering relocating to Jax to be closer to aging parents. My parents won't budge from Jax. My sister and her husband are aggressively trying to sell me on Bayshore in Tampa. She calls Jax a pleasant "country town".
If Jax is considered a "country town", I'm not sure I'd call Tampa a "city"....(and I love the Bay area, btw). Although double to population of Metro Jax, the Bay Area is just as sprawling and autocentric as any other growing Sunbelt urban area. Coming from Manhattan, they'll both feel much smaller and you won't find much difference in either. I don't know what Lenny Curry's vision is for Jax's core, but it will continue to get better with or without him on board. This is an era where community driven projects are bringing in new life, excitement and opportunity. It will be up to the city to be a facilitator and not an obstacle of this nationwide movement.
Yea, I think my issues are with the auto-centricity in the overall built environment and aesthetic.
That seems to be an issue all across Florida (and perhaps the entire south). South Florida seems to be working against that (at least in pockets). Would be nice if Jax would consider taking its marching orders from other cities outside of its region...but probably a long-shot. I agree that Tampa isn't a model for urban growth, but there appear to be some much larger pockets of density and walkability than what you find here.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 25, 2015, 12:55:10 PM
Does Len Curry have any grand visions for Jax? When I say Jax, I'm not referring to the county lands. I'm talking about the core city, which appears to be in bad and/or shabby shape in driving around. I don't quite recall his platform for the urban core. After he balances the budget, then what. Jax (ex-consolidation factor) appears quite distressed. Again, I'm judging the city, not the 'burbs, which in most other metros, wouldn't be counted as the city. By way of background, I graduated from UF, worked and lived in Manhattan the past 11 years, and am considering relocating to Jax to be closer to aging parents. My parents won't budge from Jax. My sister and her husband are aggressively trying to sell me on Bayshore in Tampa. She calls Jax a pleasant "country town".
Curry always spoke positively of downtown and he attended many events in the "core" with folks like Rummell and Munz. But I don't know if that was for show and if he really cares or has the will to truly advocate for downtown.
Jax has made progress in the past decade but I do look enviously at some of the things Orlando and Tampa have accomplished. If you move back don't expect things to change quickly or overnight...it's quite the test of patience.
To me, the two largest thing that stand out in Tampa is the rise of the Channel District in the early 2000s and the rebirth of Ybor as an entertainment district in the 1990s.
SoHo is nice but that whole area and Hyde Park are essentially the same as Riverside/Avondale/Ortega. Jax's San Marco is Tampa's Davis Island and Tampa Heights/Seminole Heights, etc. are similiar to Springfield/New Springfield/Brentwood, etc.
There's little difference between DT Tampa and DT Jax but Tampa does have the benefit of UT being in the urban core. However, it is in Central Florida. From St. Petersburg/Clearwater and Bradenton/Sarasota to Lakeland and Orlando, all of those places are short drives away. On the other hand, Jax is ahead of Tampa when it comes to transit planning and implementation.
Ultimately, it depends on what you want but if it's a true walkable environment, neither place is ideal. Coming from Manhattan, the pros and cons will be minor because you're simply not going to find anything remotely close to that level of walkability, density and vibrancy.
The closest in Florida you'll find is South Florida, which is larger than the Bay Area and Metro Jax combined. Even with that said, it's mostly pockets surrounded by miles of suburbia. That whole region was still undeveloped marshland when older cities like NYC and Chicago developed the walkable infrastructure that everyone loves about them today. They don't build cities like them anymore in this country.
well in other Murray Hill news - the seafood shop "Swimming Yesterday" gave up and closed after 2 years at that location
Wow, that's sad news
....and The Beauty Salon,next door to Moon River, recently vacated,happy to relocate to Avondale.
My Buddy Tom Whicher,recently passed away,was for a short time a partner with Bernie at the wine store next to the seafood shop.
Tom's interesting past includes a degree in Sociology and sales of cheap sunglasses in Chicago.
Quote from: BennyKrik on August 24, 2015, 05:10:14 PM
even the stone declaring MH's founding is broken in half.
That's sad.
Yes,it is.
One has to wonder why such conditions exist.
On the other hand,perhaps installing such attributes,structures should be reconsidered. Too much upkeep. No wonder plants and bushes,weeds and grass proliferates.....this is Sunny,moist Florida ! for crying out loud.
The place will take on that certain external supposed appealing 'look' once certain internals are in place.
Wonderful to see comments of newcomers who were not yet born when I resided in Murray Hill;605 Talbot Avenue.Hope the basis for my decision to bail out at one time is proven wrong.
Quote from: Know Growth on August 25, 2015, 11:11:56 PM
....and The Beauty Salon,next door to Moon River, recently vacated,happy to relocate to Avondale.
My Buddy Tom Whicher,recently passed away,was for a short time a partner with Bernie at the wine store next to the seafood shop.
Tom's interesting past includes a degree in Sociology and sales of cheap sunglasses in Chicago.
Sorry to hear about Tom. I've known Bernie for years and met Tom while he was a part of the shop. Seemed to be a pretty good dude, but I didn't really get a chance to know him.