Six awe-inspiring Jax skyscrapers never built
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4262126808_2znB6wH-L.jpg)
The downtown Jacksonville skyline we know and love today would have looked dramtically different if these size skyscrapers would have been built as originally proposed.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-six-awe-inspiring-jax-skyscrapers-never-built
Soon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.
It's a real shame the Riverwatch building didn't get built before the crash. That is the type of project The Landing needs nearby if it is to ever reach it's potential. That site was the last unpainted canvas that could have had a huge synergy to the whole vicinity.
Yes, quite a shame and it would have been a better use for this type of property than a parking garage.
Where is the gigantic observation tower? After all that would have been ......... wait for it.........a ..........GAME CHANGER!
Quote from: vicupstate on August 12, 2015, 05:02:35 AM
Soon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.
It's a real shame the Riverwatch building didn't get built before the crash. That is the type of project The Landing needs nearby if it is to ever reach it's potential. That site was the last unpainted canvas that could have had a huge synergy to the whole vicinity.
What's worst is that there are many who believe the Shipyards is the most important project in DT Jax.....
QuoteSHIPYARDS
Coinciding with a renewed debate on HRO, Curry may also find himself in negotiations with Jaguars owner Shad Khan over his high-profile proposal to develop the Shipyards property on Jacksonville's downtown waterfront.
Team President Mark Lamping has said he anticipates negotiations — which appear to be at a standstill since former Mayor Alvin Brown left office — to resume in mid-September. And Curry has said he will be personally involved in talks with Khan.
Khan wants significant public investment that, in some cases, downtown development officials are unsure they can accommodate. But many consider the Shipyards proposal the highest priority when it comes to reinvigorating downtown.
Khan has proposed a mix of housing, shops, offices, a hotel, mooring space for the USS Adams and a multilevel Jaguars practice field. But, like HRO, progress may have to wait until after budget talks.
"I would like to see a project like this move as quickly as possible ... It's transformational," said Daniel Davis, president and CEO of the JAX Chamber.
"Clearly right now the mayor's No. 1 priority is having a successful budget. It's kind of understandable that they would like to see that through before moving on to other important issues."
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-08-11/story/mayor-curry-faces-complex-hot-button-issues-budget-hearings-set-begin#cxrecs_s
Riverwatch and the 2nd St Johns proposal would have been great additions. The initial St Johns proposal was hideous.
I like Klutho's courthouse design better than anything we got from the RFP for the current monstrosity. Not sure where the center of the core was back in the day, but I would hope it would have been in the center of the developed area.
Can't help but think of 'Groundhog's Day'
Interesting article. Thanks.
Some wiseguy will 'hilariously' say "With our history, most of those buildings would've been torn down anyway" blah blah blah...
Now that's out of the way, and no one has to say it...
I'm not necessarily anti-Riverwatch far as the building itself, but I thought that the proposed location was horribly clashing with the skyline.
^You should have seen the old AHL proposal for that site. You would have had twin Suntrust Towers sitting there. Also, here's a picture showing the second Enterprise Center tower that was never built.
(https://www.floridamemory.com/fpc/commerce/com05519.jpg)
State Archives of Florida, Florida Memory, https://floridamemory.com/items/show/94424 - See more at: https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/94424#sthash.UpYGumVa.dpuf
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 12, 2015, 09:22:35 AM
Riverwatch and the 2nd St Johns proposal would have been great additions. The initial St Johns proposal was hideous.
I like Klutho's courthouse design better than anything we got from the RFP for the current monstrosity. Not sure where the center of the core was back in the day, but I would hope it would have been in the center of the developed area.
Those two are the one's I like the most, as well. IMO, the Riverwatch location being covered with a parking garage is the WORST thing to happen to our downtown skyline in the last 20 years. Both Riverwatch proposals would have looked great in that location.
Thankfully, we still have all of the other surface lots around the CSX building for iconic towers.
Quote from: Jason on August 12, 2015, 10:36:09 AM
Thankfully, we still have all of the other surface lots around the CSX building for iconic towers.
I've always wondered if the city will ever come up with a plan for dealing with all the surface parking lots, or if they're just happy with them being there. Riverfront parking has always seemed like the weirdest thing to me. :)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2015, 07:17:50 AM
What's worst is that there are many who believe the Shipyards is the most important project in DT Jax.....
The more I've thought about it, one way people could change that view and turn other projects (Landing, Barnett, Laura St Trio, etc) into the most important for DT Jax is to make them part of a single redevelopment plan. I'm not saying they all need to be done by the same developer, but someone should try coming up with a plan that can be sold to the powers-that-be as a single project where money could be thrown for a big impact. From eyeballing a map, the area between the Landing and Hemming Park looks smaller than the Shipyards so it shouldn't be seen as something too big to achieve. Put a group of interested parties together, come up with a plan that can generate some excitement, and start lobbying the city.
As long as these projects are coming to the city
individually looking for money, they look like smaller-scale, lower-impact projects. Of course, as you've pointed out before, the entire Shipyards site won't be developed all at once or in a short period of time. But the Shipyards wins the argument for many people because it's presented as a single project while the others out there are out on their own.
Had the later residential developments started a year or two earlier, it's crazy to think how much different our skyline would look today. Also, the recent developments in Brooklyn probably wouldn't have occurred as the condos would just now be filling back up again.
Hopefully we see some more big projects like this soon. I'd love to see some cranes downtown on my next visit. And some new exciting buildings in a few years.
PS I'm pretty certain St James was scaled back just before it was scrapped. Here's a picture I took of the blueprints / 3d model.
(http://i.imgur.com/hS7Vth8.jpg?1)
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 12, 2015, 11:11:21 AM
Quote from: Jason on August 12, 2015, 10:36:09 AM
Thankfully, we still have all of the other surface lots around the CSX building for iconic towers.
I've always wondered if the city will ever come up with a plan for dealing with all the surface parking lots, or if they're just happy with them being there. Riverfront parking has always seemed like the weirdest thing to me. :)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2015, 07:17:50 AM
What's worst is that there are many who believe the Shipyards is the most important project in DT Jax.....
The more I've thought about it, one way people could change that view and turn other projects (Landing, Barnett, Laura St Trio, etc) into the most important for DT Jax is to make them part of a single redevelopment plan. I'm not saying they all need to be done by the same developer, but someone should try coming up with a plan that can be sold to the powers-that-be as a single project where money could be thrown for a big impact. From eyeballing a map, the area between the Landing and Hemming Park looks smaller than the Shipyards so it shouldn't be seen as something too big to achieve. Put a group of interested parties together, come up with a plan that can generate some excitement, and start lobbying the city.
As long as these projects are coming to the city individually looking for money, they look like smaller-scale, lower-impact projects. Of course, as you've pointed out before, the entire Shipyards site won't be developed all at once or in a short period of time. But the Shipyards wins the argument for many people because it's presented as a single project while the others out there are out on their own.
Regarding the first part of your comment . . . what's funny is if you google earth the surface lot area of Water Street you see packed surface lots but empty top levels of the adjacent parking garages. I understand the companies in those buildings probably have deals where their employees can use the street level parking lots but are people even using the parking garages across the street? Seems like a horrible waste of efficiency. Get those cars in the garages where they are supposed to be and free up some real estate for some denser development. Why wouldn't they have their employees park across the street in the garage and sell the parking lot portions of their properties? Or maybe that's what the plan is if the market will ever support infill development on those lots? I also thought that the one huge parking lot adjacent to the Acosta Bridge could be converted into a public park stretching underneath the elevated highway. Could be a really cool creative way to make it almost like a half sheltered park. If you walk over by that area it is hard not to picture the potential.
On the second part of your comment. I agree, I think a master plan for Laura Street all the way from Hemming Park to the Landing would sell better than piecemealing smaller projects to the public. Heck, you could even split it up into phases but sell it under the name of one project! That is exactly what Khan is doing with the Shipyards. There is no way that will be done in one phase and if you go the meetings that Lamping is hosting they are even saying that it will be multiple phases. The only reason Khan is selling it as one project is because he is a business man and knows how to get people excited. Do you really think everyone would get excited if he just said "oh here is a hotel we plan on building by the stadium." But in reality that is probably how it is going to go. From start to finish it would be a minimum of a 10 year project.
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 12, 2015, 11:11:21 AM
The more I've thought about it, one way people could change that view and turn other projects (Landing, Barnett, Laura St Trio, etc) into the most important for DT Jax is to make them part of a single redevelopment plan. I'm not saying they all need to be done by the same developer, but someone should try coming up with a plan that can be sold to the powers-that-be as a single project where money could be thrown for a big impact. From eyeballing a map, the area between the Landing and Hemming Park looks smaller than the Shipyards so it shouldn't be seen as something too big to achieve. Put a group of interested parties together, come up with a plan that can generate some excitement, and start lobbying the city.
As long as these projects are coming to the city individually looking for money, they look like smaller-scale, lower-impact projects. Of course, as you've pointed out before, the entire Shipyards site won't be developed all at once or in a short period of time. But the Shipyards wins the argument for many people because it's presented as a single project while the others out there are out on their own.
How do you know somebody isn't doing this already? Somebody trying to be a master developer? :o
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 12:21:46 PM
Quote from: I-10east on August 12, 2015, 10:13:18 AM
Some wiseguy will 'hilariously' say "With our history, most of those buildings would've been torn down anyway" blah blah blah...
Now that's out of the way, and no one has to say it...
I'm not necessarily anti-Riverwatch far as the building itself, but I thought that the proposed location was horribly clashing with the skyline.
dumb. you are literally the only one who would say it.
+++100
Agree Stephen, imagine having a sea of Berkman II projects dotting the skyline, that or having a sea of empty skyscrapers complete with plywood over the entries and homeless camps by the fire escape. This is a rare case of Jacksonville's lethargic reaction to market forces serving us well.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 12, 2015, 06:08:59 PM
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 12, 2015, 11:11:21 AM
The more I've thought about it, one way people could change that view and turn other projects (Landing, Barnett, Laura St Trio, etc) into the most important for DT Jax is to make them part of a single redevelopment plan. I'm not saying they all need to be done by the same developer, but someone should try coming up with a plan that can be sold to the powers-that-be as a single project where money could be thrown for a big impact. From eyeballing a map, the area between the Landing and Hemming Park looks smaller than the Shipyards so it shouldn't be seen as something too big to achieve. Put a group of interested parties together, come up with a plan that can generate some excitement, and start lobbying the city.
As long as these projects are coming to the city individually looking for money, they look like smaller-scale, lower-impact projects. Of course, as you've pointed out before, the entire Shipyards site won't be developed all at once or in a short period of time. But the Shipyards wins the argument for many people because it's presented as a single project while the others out there are out on their own.
How do you know somebody isn't doing this already? Somebody trying to be a master developer? :o
I hear there's a $3 million study for it. ;)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 12, 2015, 06:22:48 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 12:21:46 PM
Quote from: I-10east on August 12, 2015, 10:13:18 AM
Some wiseguy will 'hilariously' say "With our history, most of those buildings would've been torn down anyway" blah blah blah...
Now that's out of the way, and no one has to say it...
I'm not necessarily anti-Riverwatch far as the building itself, but I thought that the proposed location was horribly clashing with the skyline.
dumb. you are literally the only one who would say it.
+++100
Agree Stephen, imagine having a sea of Berkman II projects dotting the skyline, that or having a sea of empty skyscrapers complete with plywood over the entries and homeless camps by the fire escape. This is a rare case of Jacksonville's lethargic reaction to market forces serving us well.
I disagree. The reason the Berkman 2 situation occurred is because the garage collapsed. As long as Riverwatch had been completed, it would have been filled. There is no money in a building being boarded up, so eventually it would be occupied, even if the rents are lower than planned and someone lost their shirt along the way.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 12:21:46 PM
dumb. you are literally the only one who would say it.
U mad bro??
Quote from: CCMjax on August 12, 2015, 08:06:58 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 12, 2015, 06:08:59 PM
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 12, 2015, 11:11:21 AM
The more I've thought about it, one way people could change that view and turn other projects (Landing, Barnett, Laura St Trio, etc) into the most important for DT Jax is to make them part of a single redevelopment plan. I'm not saying they all need to be done by the same developer, but someone should try coming up with a plan that can be sold to the powers-that-be as a single project where money could be thrown for a big impact. From eyeballing a map, the area between the Landing and Hemming Park looks smaller than the Shipyards so it shouldn't be seen as something too big to achieve. Put a group of interested parties together, come up with a plan that can generate some excitement, and start lobbying the city.
As long as these projects are coming to the city individually looking for money, they look like smaller-scale, lower-impact projects. Of course, as you've pointed out before, the entire Shipyards site won't be developed all at once or in a short period of time. But the Shipyards wins the argument for many people because it's presented as a single project while the others out there are out on their own.
How do you know somebody isn't doing this already? Somebody trying to be a master developer? :o
I hear there's a $3 million study for it. ;)
Lol. Seriously though, I was hinting at the fact that there WAS and maybe still IS somebody attempting this. I guess they did not make their plans public, per se, at least certainly not the way Khan did with the Shipyards.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 12, 2015, 08:29:49 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 12, 2015, 06:22:48 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 12:21:46 PM
Quote from: I-10east on August 12, 2015, 10:13:18 AM
Some wiseguy will 'hilariously' say "With our history, most of those buildings would've been torn down anyway" blah blah blah...
Now that's out of the way, and no one has to say it...
I'm not necessarily anti-Riverwatch far as the building itself, but I thought that the proposed location was horribly clashing with the skyline.
dumb. you are literally the only one who would say it.
+++100
Agree Stephen, imagine having a sea of Berkman II projects dotting the skyline, that or having a sea of empty skyscrapers complete with plywood over the entries and homeless camps by the fire escape. This is a rare case of Jacksonville's lethargic reaction to market forces serving us well.
I disagree. The reason the Berkman 2 situation occurred is because the garage collapsed. As long as Riverwatch had been completed, it would have been filled. There is no money in a building being boarded up, so eventually it would be occupied, even if the rents are lower than planned and someone lost their shirt along the way.
The cranes lining Miami's rapidly growing skyline back this position. That place got hit way harder than we did during the recession. Many lost their shirts. However, the buildings didn't sit empty long. Depressed values created opportunity for a new crop of investors and downtown residents. Now the buildings are filled, downtown has thousands of new residents, new retail is opening and the cranes are back.
Jax is one of those cities that does run the risk of Berkman IIs dotting the landscape. Sometimes it makes sense to fold. And it happens relatively rarely). Berkman II case has been sold, Choate, the contractor, was found with absolutely no fault in garage collapse and took title out of foreclosure for $100. This was years ago. The collapse itself was 8 years ago. In Miami, there would be a 50-70 story rebuilt there by now. It didn't take this long to put up a memorial and several towers on the 9/11 site.
But this is Jacksonville.
I'm personally glad some of these towers never started construction.
Quote from: simms3 on August 13, 2015, 03:24:36 PM
It didn't take this long to put up a memorial and several towers on the 9/11 site.
Ouch! That hurts....especially because it's true!
QuoteSoon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.
I honestly believe that the Shipyards will get done with Khan, as he has said all along, he wants to have more revenue come from more than just the stadium. The areas around the stadium are ripe for development and the river is the city's crown jewel. For downtown to succeed on any level, it will need this as a game changer. I think the future of downtown depends on this, to turn the ground swell of people flocking in and around Town Center, which has all kinds of land available for growth in the Skinner Farm properties (east of I-295).
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 14, 2015, 12:07:56 AM
QuoteSoon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.
I honestly believe that the Shipyards will get done with Khan, as he has said all along, he wants to have more revenue come from more than just the stadium. The areas around the stadium are ripe for development and the river is the city's crown jewel. For downtown to succeed on any level, it will need this as a game changer. I think the future of downtown depends on this, to turn the ground swell of people flocking in and around Town Center, which has all kinds of land available for growth in the Skinner Farm properties (east of I-295).
It is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.
Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.
You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 14, 2015, 04:49:51 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 14, 2015, 12:07:56 AM
QuoteSoon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.
I honestly believe that the Shipyards will get done with Khan, as he has said all along, he wants to have more revenue come from more than just the stadium. The areas around the stadium are ripe for development and the river is the city's crown jewel. For downtown to succeed on any level, it will need this as a game changer. I think the future of downtown depends on this, to turn the ground swell of people flocking in and around Town Center, which has all kinds of land available for growth in the Skinner Farm properties (east of I-295).
It is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.
Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.
You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.
+1
It's the various little places that will make DR more interesting - shop by shop, apartment by apartment, building by building. Once you have reached a certain level, there will be a lot more momentum for bigger projects. The down side to this is that the availability of cheap existing (empty / underused) buildings helps this process, which is somewhat of an issue due to the demolition mania in Jax, but there is (still) some building stock left.
If, on the other hand, there aren't all these little places, i.e. nothing that makes dt interesting / stand out, planning a new large development is more or less akin to planning it anywhere else, and in this case DT will lose out to the Beaches, Town Center...
That brings us back to the question - why do it in downtown over any other place in the area, or even why invest in a big project in DT Jacksonville when you could also be investing in Tampa, Orlando....
QuoteIt is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.
Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.
You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.
Its called Compromise. Even the Landing's first revision was shot down, as many people and government agencies compromise with their ideas of what they want the area on the river to look like for the next generation. Khan has endless pockets and he can afford to think big, at the end of the spectrum than the City cannot afford.
The Shipyards sit dead and empty, doing nothing, while a choice, does NOTHING to help fill the city finances. Its a risk, but then so is getting in your car to cross the river these days. Doing nothing is not a choice here for the Shipyards or for the city.
Sweet Pete's and Chambin and Hemming, while nice places for people to visit, are not game changers like what Khan or Sleiman can deliver.
We're screwed if our downtown revitalization strategies boil down to hoping Khan and Sleiman will become our sugar daddies.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 14, 2015, 08:52:18 AM
QuoteIt is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.
Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.
You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.
Its called Compromise. Even the Landing's first revision was shot down, as many people and government agencies compromise with their ideas of what they want the area on the river to look like for the next generation. Khan has endless pockets and he can afford to think big, at the end of the spectrum than the City cannot afford.
The Shipyards sit dead and empty, doing nothing, while a choice, does NOTHING to help fill the city finances. Its a risk, but then so is getting in your car to cross the river these days. Doing nothing is not a choice here for the Shipyards or for the city.
Sweet Pete's and Chambin and Hemming, while nice places for people to visit, are not game changers like what Khan or Sleiman can deliver.
To pregame for the Jag game, everybody take a drink when mtrain says "game changer".
I think the demand is building in DT, but it's not at the point where big money will see a great ROI. San Marco and Riverside are very hot markets, but are getting more expensive. I think the recently proposed project on the Crawdaddy's site will do well, but I don't know if the demand is there for something on the scale of healthy town (and definitely not the shipyards). As density builds on the perimeter of downtown, it will create more of a market for retail and entertainment in the core. Then you'll see more people willing to put up with the BS parts of downtown to enjoy the culture and quality of life aspects. At that point there will be demand for more projects like Berkman, etc...
Even when DT was in it's heyday in the 1950's and '60's, it was not the Shipyards land area (which was literally a Shipyard then) that was the economic powerhouse for DT. As for the Landing that area was a parking lot back then.
The department stores and all the small stores and offices then were centered around Hemming Plaza. There is no reason that can't be the epicenter of the revival of DT too.
Leaving the Shipyards as is, is not only an option, I would argue it is the best option for now.
Here's an idea for Khan that avoids depending on the city to clean up any site. Why doesn't he invest in some of the vacant buildings along Adams and Randolph and develop some of the vacant land around the Arena, baseball grounds and on some of the current surface lots west of the stadium? And improve Metropolitan park while he's at it to connect to these developments to throw in some waterfront value to the area. The intersection of Adams and Randolph could be a hoppin little center. It already is when there are events going on and that's with only one real restaurant/bar there (soon to be two with Intuition's expansion). Why not do this while the city is trying figure out which way is up and which is down? The city could focus on DT (Laura Street) and Khan could focus his efforts on Adams/Randolph/Metro Park and not worry about cleanup. Cleanup can come down the road along with demoing the jail.
QuoteThe department stores and all the small stores and offices then were centered around Hemming Plaza. There is no reason that can't be the epicenter of the revival of DT too.
Where are the department stores in Jacksonville now? They are with the people, in the suburbs. They are not coming back until the people come back downtown. Without people downtown, to rival the suburbs, downtown is dead. Don't try and tell me all the restaurants will keep it going, its the people spending their money, living downtown, using downtown, expanding downtown, where downtown becomes its only community, like San Marco, like Avondale, like Riverside. There is no community downtown, its a little over here, a nice idea over there. You have to get more people living downtown, Khan's plan can do this.
QuoteWhy doesn't he invest in some of the vacant buildings along Adams and Randolph and develop some of the vacant land around the Arena, baseball grounds and on some of the current surface lots west of the stadium?
In a word, RIVER. The River is the jewel here with the access to it and traffic on the river with his development there, on the river. Why would he want a building on Adams or Randolph? He already has a building in foreclosure at Laura and Adams, not generating revenue for him. The River is the key for his program and who wants to live on Adams or Randolph, when the River is the key? Good idea, but the great one is to be On the River.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 15, 2015, 03:20:31 PM
QuoteThe department stores and all the small stores and offices then were centered around Hemming Plaza. There is no reason that can't be the epicenter of the revival of DT too.
Where are the department stores in Jacksonville now? They are with the people, in the suburbs. They are not coming back until the people come back downtown. Without people downtown, to rival the suburbs, downtown is dead. Don't try and tell me all the restaurants will keep it going, its the people spending their money, living downtown, using downtown, expanding downtown, where downtown becomes its only community, like San Marco, like Avondale, like Riverside. There is no community downtown, its a little over here, a nice idea over there. You have to get more people living downtown, Khan's plan can do this.
QuoteWhy doesn't he invest in some of the vacant buildings along Adams and Randolph and develop some of the vacant land around the Arena, baseball grounds and on some of the current surface lots west of the stadium?
In a word, RIVER. The River is the jewel here with the access to it and traffic on the river with his development there, on the river. Why would he want a building on Adams or Randolph? He already has a building in foreclosure at Laura and Adams, not generating revenue for him. The River is the key for his program and who wants to live on Adams or Randolph, when the River is the key? Good idea, but the great one is to be On the River.
The people aren't coming back until there is something to come back FOR. Unique things that they can't find elsewhere, in an environment that is unique (and can't be build new) is that thing to come back for. There are many others places in JAX that have water, and the proposed riverfront condo in Riverside certainly isn't setting records. The prior residential proposes for this exact same land was lukewarm as well.
If the land wasn't contaminated and uber expense to fix, I might be more willing to go with Khan's idea, but even so, it is just not realistic to the existing demand.
I do not know of ONE city that was transformed from a single project that came about when that city's DT was this downtrodden. But I can name a hundred cities that did it the only way that works, a long term, project by project, pedestrian oriented rejuvenation.
Jacksonville is a village. We do not need skyscrapers.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 15, 2015, 03:20:31 PM
QuoteThe department stores and all the small stores and offices then were centered around Hemming Plaza. There is no reason that can't be the epicenter of the revival of DT too.
Where are the department stores in Jacksonville now? They are with the people, in the suburbs. They are not coming back until the people come back downtown. Without people downtown, to rival the suburbs, downtown is dead. Don't try and tell me all the restaurants will keep it going, its the people spending their money, living downtown, using downtown, expanding downtown, where downtown becomes its only community, like San Marco, like Avondale, like Riverside. There is no community downtown, its a little over here, a nice idea over there. You have to get more people living downtown, Khan's plan can do this.
QuoteWhy doesn't he invest in some of the vacant buildings along Adams and Randolph and develop some of the vacant land around the Arena, baseball grounds and on some of the current surface lots west of the stadium?
In a word, RIVER. The River is the jewel here with the access to it and traffic on the river with his development there, on the river. Why would he want a building on Adams or Randolph? He already has a building in foreclosure at Laura and Adams, not generating revenue for him. The River is the key for his program and who wants to live on Adams or Randolph, when the River is the key? Good idea, but the great one is to be On the River.
Well, I know based on the recent presentations Lamping is hosting, he is fairly confident the city is going to clean it up for them but we shall see. If they decide not to do the cleanup that leaves Khan to do it himself or find other ways to invest. He has made it clear that he wants that area to be more vibrant. The riverfront property is very valuable but does not necessarily possess magical powers for residential or hotel development in this town, see Berkman I & II, The Strand and all the financial troubles they've had. See Riverside 220 and Brooklyn Station for successful developments off the river but within walking distance and view distance from upper floors. I'm assuming they have been successful based on what I've heard and seen . . . that they've been filling up fairly quickly and the number of restaurants/shops that are planning on leasing space there or have already is beyond decent. I don't know what the actual numbers are but Brooklyn has already become a vibrant area just since those places have opened up shop.
This is why I proposed the idea of developing the vacant buildings and lots centered around the Adams and Randolph intersection. Have you been to that intersection when there is an event going on? There is an immense amount of activity going on. There are 4 "professional" sports teams playing within a 100 feet of each other and an NFL team playing steps away. There are also concerts pretty regularly at Veterans and Metro Park (steps away) that draw large crowds. There is potential to develop that area further without spending $40 to $100 million in the next couple years cleaning up the riverfront down the street. Money the city doesn't have right now, or at least acts as if they don't have it. Maybe they could start with smaller scale developments on vacant property around Adams/Randolph that doesn't require extensive cleanup. And improve the existing park and expand it with a connection north of Bay Street to the stadiums/developments so it gives easy and aesthetically impressive connectivity to the river. The shipyards eventually need to be and will be developed into something, I think we all agree, but my idea allows for the city to be "fiscally responsible" and save up for that and do it when they actually have the funds. They need to focus on the other projects actually in the downtown that absolutely need to happen asap (Barnett, Trio). These projects will likely not be profitable but need to happen as part of a downtown master plan. Win some you lose some in order to achieve overall success, can't keep looking at them as individual projects.
Another 900 lb gorilla . . . . what happens to the elevated highway along Bay St with Khan's proposal? I don't believe it's shown in the renderings, neither is Berkman II. Kind of hard to develop what he had in mind with an elevated highway right there along the main street. If that comes down, who pays for that? Does Bay street need to be modified so it allows for street front development and highway passing behind buildings? I have no clue what their plan is. My idea doesn't require any modification of Bay Street or the highway . . . or cleanup. Just a thought, just an option along with a dozen or so other options for the area but wanted to hear people's thoughts on it.
Quote from: BennyKrik on August 16, 2015, 09:42:06 AM
Jacksonville is a village. We do not need skyscrapers.
I'm working on a story now that will explain how our skyline was built and why we have a lot more office space than needed today. Text is complete but I stil need to add pictures and perhaps a map. At one point in time, there was a legit need. Believe it or not, none of the events had anything to do with Jax, as a city, downtown or its leadership. We just ended up on the losing end of events bigger than us.
Oh very interesting Lake. Looking forward to learning about that!!
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 15, 2015, 03:20:31 PM
QuoteThe department stores and all the small stores and offices then were centered around Hemming Plaza. There is no reason that can't be the epicenter of the revival of DT too.
Where are the department stores in Jacksonville now? They are with the people, in the suburbs. They are not coming back until the people come back downtown. Without people downtown, to rival the suburbs, downtown is dead.
I admire your confidence and arrogance even when you're completely off base. Even when I'm absolutely sure of something, I don't think I have the confidence that you exude in your half baked ideas. Using department stores as an example is irrelevant, as the department store industry is an outdated idea and across the board they are losing money. Sears is nearly out of business and Macy's has been in the tank due to their inability to keep up with market trends. In 20 years, I imagine the only stores still around will be the most highest luxury stores with concierge services for customers. People shop online for most everything they need these days and align with brands they feel a connection with. There are so many more retailers in the market space and so many ways for customers to connect with the brands they want. You're right to say that we need to have more people downtown to support a better retail scene, but you couldn't be more wrong on what that retail would look like.