whatever I ever suggested commented on implied or even hinted at on metjax refering to education immediately one certain teacher would comment that uncaring parents where THE PROBLEM. Please give her a subject title all her own. call one realizing the rest of the world isn't perfect lets be constructive. and call hers education is doomed parents don't care.
Quote from: JUSTDAVE on June 03, 2007, 01:25:01 AM
whatever I ever suggested commented on implied or even hinted at on metjax refering to education immediately one certain teacher would comment that uncaring parents where THE PROBLEM. Please give her a subject title all her own. call one realizing the rest of the world isn't perfect lets be constructive. and call hers education is doomed parents don't care.
It's a shame that you can't handle the fact, that someone who is on the inside looking out, happens to know first hand that the lack of parenting and parent involvement, ARE the core issues when it comes to education. If it weren't for those of us hell-bent on trying to place all of the blame on the teachers, instead of seeing the whole picture and what an inticate factor parenting is in relation to the education process...then there would be constructive and meaningful moves in the right direction.
I never said that teachers should be without liability, but not the only factor to blame. You speak as if I were closed minded, yet, you're the one who cannot see past your own views. When asked what were your suggestions, you never responded. I still haven't read anything posted by you, that's offered any constructive suggestions to help our children to succeed in school. It's a shame that you blame me for your lack of being able to offer any constructive suggestions, which only proves what I've said earlier.
Now if you really want to stand by what you're saying now, aside from your attempts to insult....then let's indeed, have a discussion as to how we, as a society, can help these children who are failing.
In other words, it would seem that you're asking for an Education thread, is this correct?
and one just for you because everytime I even comment on education in general the next ten posts usually go
post 1 Dave you are ignoring the problem the parents are to blame
post 2 someone agrees with you parents parent badly and gives an example
post 3 I chime in and say given the fact that parents are not as good as they used to be we still can make changes to the school system that optimism administrators and teachers performance
post 4 You ignore that I even said administrators and ACCUSE ME OF KNOWING NOTHING and go on to say quit blaming teachers
post 5 someone, usually John. takes two paragraphs to talk about yes parents are a problem but then actually talks about the merits of what I started the thread on in the first place If I haven't thanked John for this lately I will again say thank you John
posts 6-10 you and one other person saying bad things about parents and talking about how if we could just change parents all other changes wouldn't matter.
after 10 posts I realize it is your goal to keep one of the worst school systems in the country just because we clearly have bad parents
post 5
Quote from: jbm32206 on June 03, 2007, 06:05:47 AM
In other words, it would seem that you're asking for an Education thread, is this correct?
So, what's your point? You still haven't responded to my question as to what you'd like to see change. All you do is whine about my participating in the discussion, but you never really seem to add anything other than complaining that I stand behind for my profession...and have stated over and over, that it's not just the teachers at fault. I've never said it's just the parents lack of parenting...I've also agreed that teachers do need to be held accountable, but that we're not the only ones to blame.
The facts remain...and I don't care how it ticks you off or how many times you whine about the responses you get to such a blanket of blame for teachers (and administrators) only. Take those blinders off, rid yourself of the contempt you seem to harbor for teachers and lets discuss what you feel can be done (or changed) to 'fix' the educational system.
Just the threads I recall eliminate magnet schools (why bother parents to blame)
Eliminate 4x 4 block scheduling (why bother parents to blame)
have teachers explain why their class didn't do well on FCAT (why bother parents to blame)
Put more security and cameras around places where kids park bicycles (why bother parents to blame)
I started 15-20 threads on education at metjax you practicly copied and pasted the same answer on every one.
Quote from: jbm32206 on June 03, 2007, 11:22:09 AM
So, what's your point? You still haven't responded to my question as to what you'd like to see change. All you do is whine about my participating in the discussion, but you never really seem to add anything other than complaining that I stand behind for my profession...and have stated over and over, that it's not just the teachers at fault. I've never said it's just the parents lack of parenting...I've also agreed that teachers do need to be held accountable, but that we're not the only ones to blame.
The facts remain...and I don't care how it ticks you off or how many times you whine about the responses you get to such a blanket of blame for teachers (and administrators) only. Take those blinders off, rid yourself of the contempt you seem to harbor for teachers and lets discuss what you feel can be done (or changed) to 'fix' the educational system.
Quote from: stephendare on June 03, 2007, 12:30:44 PM
Dave.
Are you serious?
How do parents not get the blame?
Especially angry tax cutting parents who think that professionals making near minimum wage should
a. Do more with less.
b. Teach horrible unruly children,--- many of whom would have been improved with the direct presence of a paddle weilding granny at an early age---how to act in a manner that vaguely resembles what the rest of western civilization recognizes as 'human'.
From the absurd tax cuts and budget busting, to the rise of no parent homes to a general breakdown in simple social training, teachers today face the most challenging environment since the days of mythical Jane Seymor character Dr. Quinn, Medical Woman.
This is not to say that the school board of duval county doesnt have some of the most boneheaded and obtuse people ever to try and make fire by striking a piece of flint on a small animals hide, but when it comes to the majority of the parents, I would have to say there is no comparison.
I agree with both of you there are some rotten parents but it souldn't paralize any discussion on what should about educating our kids.
maybe the fire department should just stop putting out fires and concentrate on making sure they never get started.
There should be a group of people who can look at a situation and consider what eliments of the situation need changes.
I think people who want to just throw in the towel on education because parents are to blame can have a very interresting discussion on their own subject title.
I don't think there is many positive results that will come from it though.
Quote from: stephendare on June 03, 2007, 12:30:44 PM
Dave.
Are you serious?
How do parents not get the blame?
Especially angry tax cutting parents who think that professionals making near minimum wage should
a. Do more with less.
b. Teach horrible unruly children,--- many of whom would have been improved with the direct presence of a paddle weilding granny at an early age---how to act in a manner that vaguely resembles what the rest of western civilization recognizes as 'human'.
From the absurd tax cuts and budget busting, to the rise of no parent homes to a general breakdown in simple social training, teachers today face the most challenging environment since the days of mythical Jane Seymor character Dr. Quinn, Medical Woman.
This is not to say that the school board of duval county doesnt have some of the most boneheaded and obtuse people ever to try and make fire by striking a piece of flint on a small animals hide, but when it comes to the majority of the parents, I would have to say there is no comparison.
Quote from: JUSTDAVE on June 03, 2007, 01:06:33 PM
I agree with both of you there are some rotten parents but it souldn't paralize any discussion on what should about educating our kids.
maybe the fire department should just stop putting out fires and concentrate on making sure they never get started.
There should be a group of people who can look at a situation and consider what eliments of the situation need changes.
I think people who want to just throw in the towel on education because parents are to blame can have a very interresting discussion on their own subject title.
If my responses seem to be copied and pasted, as you accuse me of...it's only because you refused to discuss further, after placing all the blame soley upon the teachers.
The only reason the discussion was ever paralized, as you seem to think it was...was due to the fact that you refused to continue when met with opposition. There were several educators who took a stand against you blaming just the teachers, and you refused to accept that a great deal of the problems within the school system are the children and parents.
Yes, there's bad apples...there's plenty of teachers I feel should never have been in the classroom to begin with. Still, the fact remains, we're knocking our heads against the wall...between being held responsible for what's NOT within our power, for having to do more without the approppriate funding, for being held accountable for the FCAT; when there's so much more to teaching than just that one test.
As for your comparison...the fire department continues to battle the fires, (as we continue to battle the upscale task of trying to educate children that don't care or want to learn and without enough money to properly do so) and yet they also have fire prevention...just as there's the campaign to keep kids in school. Sound familiar?
I don't see where getting rid of magnet schools would have any positive impact upon kids learning. In fact, Magnet schools get to draw more money...so they're ahead of the game. I cannot comment on the block scheduling as you stated, although we do have blocks of literacy and reading, that are a must for each classroom.
I couldn't agree more and they are a very positive factor in our county. I hated when the school I work at lost ours, but that was mainly because we were an "accelerated" which basically amounted to nothing. We were trying to have it changed to academically gifted, when the powers that be, downtown decided to just drop it all together...which means we lost money and our enrollment is down. :'(
I don't know to whom you're referring about throwing in the towel....I haven't and refuse to give up. I work very hard at what I do, and put a lot more time, effort, heart and money into it, each and every day. It just upsets me when someone blatantly blames only one part, when the accountability needs to be shared.
i certainly don't rest all of the blame on parents or environment or anything, because i have a strong conviction that you only survive if you want it, but the one thing i noticed is that problematic behaviour is mostly a result of a severe lack of discipline. most parents(if they do punish their kids) do it on a whim out of anger, instead of having preset guidelines for actions/consequences. in that respect, blame the parents all you want. on the other hand, holding the parent responsible for the children's actions is completely rediculous. wether kids get the "right and wrong" talk from their parents is completely irrelevant, as they get it in school, and if the school has rules, they should be responsible for enforcing them. if a parent doesnt care about their child enough to not discipline them, thats sad and all, but the kid will probobly be out of school and the teachers hair by the time they get to high school anyway.
CONCLUSION-
1.parents: discipline your kids. being a young rapscallion myself, i know how important it is.
2.teachers: its not your job to worry about kids; if you do so you go above and beyond the call(and good for you), but it isnt your job to try and fix kids. you just follow the code of conduct and let things pan out as they will.
That's all well and good, leaving things to fall where they may with the code of conduct...not likely to resolve the problems that stiffle the school system. Nobody here said anything about resting all the blame on the parents or environment; and I'm going to assume that you're talking about where/how and with whom the kids live...not to mention their financial situaitons, which do happen to impact their overall attitude and performance.
As for teachers "its not your job to worry about kids; if you do so you go above and beyond the call(and good for you), but it isnt your job to try and fix kids. you just follow the code of conduct and let things pan out as they will." You're kidding, right? It's just not that simple...
Many parents seem to believe that the government school will do the parenting for them so they don't have to.
im simply saying-put the kids out or suspend them if they bother you.......whatever it takes. but there is no reason why a troubled youth should hold up the education process. And, the school has an obligation to act if a child is breaking rules. i wasnt dropping responsibility on the school, im telling them to do their job for once instead of complaining about lack of funding or other problems that wont be solved. my schoolteachers just let the kids walk all over them, and if they would follow the rules and suspend kids, instead of "understanding their social conflict" they would either A. miss so much school that they fail out, or B.stop being morons because of their ultimately self-centered behaviour.
The problem there is, we'll write referrals and sent them to the office, and 9 out of 10 times, they're right back in your room. I personally wish they'd have a zero tolerance when it comes to violations of the code of conduct, but they don't. This is something that has to fall on the administration....and it seems like they're rarely very supportive of the classroom teacher, and almost afraid of the parents. Drives us absolutely nuts!!
If it only it were that easy...but like I said, getting the administration to suspend these clowns!
sorry if i came on strong... ;) i do know what you mean, and once again, i in no way blame the school or think they are completely responsible for children's actions.
Not a problem....it's just so frustrating, when you do go above and beyond for these kids and you don't get the funding or the backing of administration...let alone the parents. No need to apologize, but it's appreciated! ;)
QuoteParents, not schools, failed these children
By BILL MAXWELL
Published June 3, 2007
St. Pete Times
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who's responsible for educating a child?
On its face, this is a simple question. But when we factor in the race of the child, the question becomes one mired in, among other forces, blame, anger, recrimination, self-aggrandizement, history, myth, politics and, of course, litigation.
All of these forces are converging in Pinellas County as the School Board and its attorneys prepare to do battle with Guy Burns, the attorney representing a plaintiff class composed of 20, 000 black children currently attending and who will attend Pinellas schools.
The plaintiffs claim the schools failed to adequately educate black students in violation of Florida law and the state Constitution. Indeed, black students in Pinellas schools consistently score below all other groups on all standardized measures, dubbed the achievement gap, and they have the highest suspension and expulsion rates.
Popularly known as the "Crowley case, " this class-action lawsuit is named for black parent William Crowley. It was filed in August 2000 by Crowley on behalf of his son, Akwete Osoka, then a 7-year-old student at Sawgrass Elementary School in St. Petersburg.
According to the lawsuit, the boy faced academic problems "typical of those difficulties commonly faced by students of African descent." The lawsuit was filed during the time the People's Democratic Uhuru Movement faced obstacles in trying to establish its all-black Marcus Garvey Academy charter school. Crowley had enrolled his son in the Uhuru afterschool tutoring program, and he claimed the boy had begun reading above grade level as a result.
I have no doubt that this is a bogus lawsuit, and the judges who have permitted the case to go forward are patronizing and wrongheaded. They are blaming the wrong side for black children's failure to get a "high-quality" education.
Burns, now supported by a broad group of blacks that includes veteran educators, is blaming the schools for black students' abysmal academic performance. However, a 2005 study by University of Florida professor David N. Figlio and Princeton University professor Cecilia Elena Rouse argues that the moment black children in Pinellas come to kindergarten, they are not as prepared for learning as their peers. The study was commissioned by the Pinellas School District.
The researchers based their findings on precise data the district had collected as it tracked the 8, 400 students who entered kindergarten in 1989 through high school graduation.
Michael W. Kirk, a Washington, D.C.-based attorney for Pinellas schools, summarizes the study's major finding: "Whatever is causing the gap, it, by definition, is something that happened to these children before they set foot in a Pinellas County school."
Everything I know as a teacher and as a parent forces me to agree. Every classroom teacher I know agrees, and every mature, responsible parent I know agrees.
Too many blacks have relinquished their parental duties, a shameful neglect that forces public school teachers and administrators to become surrogate parents to children who have full-blown lives beyond the schoolhouse door.
A few days ago, a white middle school teacher told me that when she tried to speak with black parents about their children's unruly behavior, she faced hostility.
"I can't get through to the kids, and I can't get through to the parents, " she said. "What am I supposed to do?"
I did not have an answer. But I know this much: For sure, the courthouse is not the answer.
I have seen many children born and reared in poor, single-parent households who perform well academically and who do not get suspended or expelled from school. More often than not, these children have caring adults who participate in their intellectual and social lives.
Such adults know the home is life's anchor. They do not wait for strangers to do their job.
Last week, I went to the St. Petersburg Times' archives and read everything that has been written about the Crowley case since it started in 2000. The best thing I read was is the eloquent letter from Margy Kincaid, a high school teacher in Palm Harbor, published this March 28. She discusses the achievement gap in Pinellas schools:
"The achievement gap is bridged in early childhood by the parents, by how cherished the children were, how their questions were answered or how often they were read to at night. It is bridged by how committed the parents are to their education and the value it holds. The children's behavior control starts in early childhood with the way their discipline has been handled by the parents.
"Public school teachers, and administrators and guidance counselors, for the most part, jump through hoops to help these children catch up and learn anger-management and see to it that they get food, clothing or even basic hygiene products. But without the backing of parents the job is next to impossible.
"Graduation rates will not improve, school violence and vandalism will not decrease, the gap will not be bridged until we get the parents to buy into the 24/7 responsibility that began when they created the special and unique individual who is their child."
Guy Burns, the Crowley case attorney, needs to listen to Margy Kincaid and her colleagues instead of listening to parents who fail their own children long before the children enter kindergarten.
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/06/03/News/Parents__not_schools_.shtml
Thank you, Spidey....that's exactly what I've been trying to say!!!!!!
Damn guys! every think it is "the system" and "parents? see my new posts... to be honest, I think I'm on target
I'm well aware that there's problems within the education system, that's never been denied. However, one of the biggest problems today, within our school system is the fact that there's no accountability for parents and the children. The school system, no...actually, the teachers are being blamed for what's wrong and that's simply not fair.
If people would take the time to look back over the past 20+ years, you'd find that as parent accountability dropped, so did the academic achievements of their children. Teachers are still teaching, but way too many parents are not parenting, and that has a direct and severe impact upon the childs overall success.
Quote"The achievement gap is bridged in early childhood by the parents, by how cherished the children were, how their questions were answered or how often they were read to at night. It is bridged by how committed the parents are to their education and the value it holds. The children's behavior control starts in early childhood with the way their discipline has been handled by the parents.
"Public school teachers, and administrators and guidance counselors, for the most part, jump through hoops to help these children catch up and learn anger-management and see to it that they get food, clothing or even basic hygiene products. But without the backing of parents the job is next to impossible.
"Graduation rates will not improve, school violence and vandalism will not decrease, the gap will not be bridged until we get the parents to buy into the 24/7 responsibility that began when they created the special and unique individual who is their child."