It sounds like the Shipyards could cost the city a lot more than $35 million for cleanup....
QuoteAmong the key sticking points outlined in the DIA analysis:
■ Iguana is seeking the ability to terminate its contract if the environmental cleanup — which the city would be responsible for paying — exceeds $35 million.
The DIA has proposed an option for the city and Iguana to mutually agree the city can cover costs above $35 million, rather than an automatic termination.
The city is still working to determine the extent of environmental contamination at the site, which formerly housed heavy industrial uses that exposed it to lead, arsenic and other toxins. City officials don't yet know how much the cleanup will cost.
The city currently has about $13 million set aside for that cleanup. Curry's long-term plan for big-ticket projects doesn't include any money for cleanup in the upcoming fiscal year, though he's pledged
$17.5 million for the 2016-17 fiscal year.
■ Iguana has proposed the city oversee and pay for mooring space for the USS Adams — for years, locals have suggested turning the retired vessel into a naval ship museum.
The DIA flatly rejected that idea.
"No. This will be between Iguana and USS Adams," the analysis says.
■ Iguana wants all tax increment financing funds — the increase in property taxes generated by the project — to be spent on the property.
But the DIA says 85 percent of the tax increments funds are dedicated toward paying debt service and the operation and maintenance of public space.
■ Iguana has proposed that the city would retain ownership of the riverwalk and its associated bulkheads and public spaces, though the building pads would belong either to Iguana or other companies that purchase them.
The DIA comments express reluctance to "piecemeal" the property.
Iguana wants the city to approve 1 million square feet of office space, 100,000 square feet of commercial space, 662 residential units, 350 hotel rooms and 525 marine slips on the property.
The DIA says only 400 marine slips are available and that no other slips exist.
■ Iguana would oversee the design and construction of improvements on Bay Street; the riverwalk, which would extend the current Northbank all the way to Metropolitan Park; public spaces and restoration/construction of the bulkheads. But the city would pay the cost of those projects.
But investment authority officials want the city and Iguana to partner on the design of those improvements because they "have an interest in ensuring that Bay Street and other public areas are designed in accordance with DIA's long-term needs."
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/2015-07-24/story/issues-remain-between-city-shad-khan-over-shipyards-property
Wow, what a hosing. Hopefully we can now work on a deal that's doable without being so lopsided.
I was thinking the same thing and quickly. This site has remained empty far to long.
Well hopefully like most deals this is Khan's attempt at coming in asking for everything but secretly willing to accept a deal somewhere in the middle. I just think that with Brown he was able to get everything he wanted with few questions asked. $33 million for huge scoreboards? Sure. Why not? With Curry he knows he'll really have to bargain and come down a bit on these demands. Personally I think both parties really want the shipyards so it will eventually get done. There will be plenty of "less than enthusiastic" press in the mean time but I think it will happen. I think it makes really good business sense for Khan to have a vibrant downtown around his team. It's not only for development partnerships and entertainment attractions but also just making Jax a better city to attract more potential Jags fans to move here or visit. Regardless this is a long haul project so really no use stressing every bit of news between now and grand opening.
People kill me with the score board references, and I don't see how just jags fans are the only who would benefit from the shipyards ( a large barren land on the water that's been empty for decades) being developed.
UNFurbanist is right.
Khan and his people are business minded and cut throat. We see that with the foreclosure proceedings with Barnett and Edgewood Bakery. This is not charity. However, they will negotiate and of course this was the start of those negotiations which means they will meet somewhere closer to a middle range that is acceptable to both sides.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2015, 10:52:41 PM
Wow, what a hosing. Hopefully we can now work on a deal that's doable without being so lopsided.
Sounds so to me, as well - all the expenses are borne by the COJ, all income / opportunities by the developers. The best / worst part is that Iguana wants the increase in property taxes generated by the project to be spent on the property.
I agree that it would be great if the area were developed, however not by giving it all away for free.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on August 04, 2015, 01:35:58 AM
People kill me with the score board references
Why is that? Khan got a great deal on what many see as a waste of taxpayer money.
Yet another pie-in-the-sky impossible deal that the city does not need to waste any time on. The city doesn't have the money and even if it did, it should not submit to such ridiculous demands. Take the time, energy and money and put it in the Barnett/Trio project, before mother nature removes the opportunity. Then work on the Ambassador or some other synergy creating project.
The future of DT JAX lies with the Sweet Pete's and Ron Chamblin's of the world, not with these grandiose Fool's Gold schemes.
Quote■ Iguana is seeking the ability to terminate its contract if the environmental cleanup — which the city would be responsible for paying — exceeds $35 million.
■ Iguana has proposed the city oversee and pay for mooring space for the USS Adams
■ Iguana has proposed that the city would retain ownership of the riverwalk and its associated bulkheads and public spaces, though the building pads would belong either to Iguana or other companies that purchase them.
■ Iguana would oversee the design and construction of improvements on Bay Street; the riverwalk, which would extend the current Northbank all the way to Metropolitan Park; public spaces and restoration/construction of the bulkheads. But the city would pay the cost of those projects.
Any idea of how much cash we could be potentially looking at? $100 million or more? If the city is truly committed to seeing development on the shipyards site, it can pretty much do this stuff without Iguana's involvement. With that in mind, how much has Iguana suggested it would spend on purchasing the building pads?
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on August 04, 2015, 09:22:07 AM
Quote from: UNFurbanist on August 03, 2015, 11:19:38 PM
Well hopefully like most deals this is Khan's attempt at coming in asking for everything but secretly willing to accept a deal somewhere in the middle. I just think that with Brown he was able to get everything he wanted with few questions asked. $33 million for huge scoreboards? Sure. Why not? With Curry he knows he'll really have to bargain and come down a bit on these demands...
What in the world gives you the idea Curry will somehow be less favorable? Giving public money to businesses, especially rich ones that don't need it, is a central tenent of the "pro-business" republican platform. If anything, Curry is at least as likely as Brown to approve this stuff. It'll create jerbs!
Not to mention Curry has spent the past week tweeting pictures of him and his son with Jaguars players and coaches. I think Curry will be in Khan's back pocket as much as Brown was.
Quote from: pierre on August 04, 2015, 10:15:03 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on August 04, 2015, 09:22:07 AM
Quote from: UNFurbanist on August 03, 2015, 11:19:38 PM
Well hopefully like most deals this is Khan's attempt at coming in asking for everything but secretly willing to accept a deal somewhere in the middle. I just think that with Brown he was able to get everything he wanted with few questions asked. $33 million for huge scoreboards? Sure. Why not? With Curry he knows he'll really have to bargain and come down a bit on these demands...
What in the world gives you the idea Curry will somehow be less favorable? Giving public money to businesses, especially rich ones that don't need it, is a central tenent of the "pro-business" republican platform. If anything, Curry is at least as likely as Brown to approve this stuff. It'll create jerbs!
Not to mention Curry has spent the past week tweeting pictures of him and his son with Jaguars players and coaches. I think Curry will be in Khan's back pocket as much as Brown was.
That hardly means he's likely to hand over the key to the city's coffers. This is such a bum deal that anyone who didn't get $200k in campaign money from Khan can see it at a glance.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2015, 09:52:34 AM
Quote■ Iguana is seeking the ability to terminate its contract if the environmental cleanup — which the city would be responsible for paying — exceeds $35 million.
■ Iguana has proposed the city oversee and pay for mooring space for the USS Adams
■ Iguana has proposed that the city would retain ownership of the riverwalk and its associated bulkheads and public spaces, though the building pads would belong either to Iguana or other companies that purchase them.
■ Iguana would oversee the design and construction of improvements on Bay Street; the riverwalk, which would extend the current Northbank all the way to Metropolitan Park; public spaces and restoration/construction of the bulkheads. But the city would pay the cost of those projects.
Any idea of how much cash we could be potentially looking at? $100 million or more? If the city is truly committed to seeing development on the shipyards site, it can pretty much do this stuff without Iguana's involvement. With that in mind, how much has Iguana suggested it would spend on purchasing the building pads?
+1
Sounds like a more sensible idea - clean up the lots, develop the infrastructure (i.e. make them more attractive and then sell them to interested developers - does not even have to be the same one for the entire area (i.e. not one huge project).
It amazes me that finding investors for riverfront property in a large (warm) city is that difficult.
^It's harder when you write the RFP with only one developer in mind.
The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.
It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.
If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on August 04, 2015, 01:35:58 AM
People kill me with the score board references, and I don't see how just jags fans are the only who would benefit from the shipyards ( a large barren land on the water that's been empty for decades) being developed.
I'm not saying only jags fans benefit. I think it will be good for everyone! Khan, the city, Jacksonvillians, Jags fans all of them. Some people were sceptical that anything would happen with the land before and I'm just putting hope out there that it will because It makes good business sense for Khan to develope it. I just think the deal has to be right and not totally bend the city over. Although that seems to be common so even if it does happen at least we'll get a pretty waterfront development. And honestly who knows what Curry will do. Ya pro business republicans love corporate welfare but I see glimmers of hope with Curry that financial sanity is also important. We'll just have to wait and see.
Hiddentrack +100
I can't help but think (with really no basis, though), that there is some Kahn v. Rummell race to develop and that if the mayor had to take sides, we all know which side he'll take. Kahn may not care about what Rummell is doing, but I gotta think that Rummell cares about Kahn is doing.
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 04, 2015, 11:44:52 AM
The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.
It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.
If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.
The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?
Quote from: Gunnar on August 04, 2015, 02:05:05 PM
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 04, 2015, 11:44:52 AM
The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.
It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.
If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.
The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?
No, but the city wouldn't own the Shipyards after they do the work themselves and then sell off the property piece by piece either.
My main point about hiring someone else to do the work is that you're making a decision about whether or not you're capable of or willing to doing the work yourself. If you're not, then are you willing to pay someone for what you save in time and stress, and if so, how much are you willing to fork over for that?
At the end of the negotiations, the city may they think they get a better deal bearing all the costs of preparing the property for sale and keeping all the proceeds from those sales. If they're successful at it, great! Maybe it could turn into a model for what they do with other abandoned and crumbling properties downtown.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on August 04, 2015, 01:35:58 AM
People kill me with the score board references
Agreed. It's a bit maddening. And the responses to the terms of this first proposal, as if they've never heard of an initial offer made for the specific purpose of inviting a counter. Or the very subjective caricature of Republicans as only interested in the rich.
Sigh.
For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A, I wouldn't say cutthroat but . . . you may be right. And that wouldn't be a bad thing to me. This is a problem property that *shouldn't* be a problem property. It's going to take a man like Shad and his crew, however, to deliver the desired transition (given that it has been sitting there for years with nothing to show of the deep desire locally to have it developed).
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 04, 2015, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: Gunnar on August 04, 2015, 02:05:05 PM
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 04, 2015, 11:44:52 AM
The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.
It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.
If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.
The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?
No, but the city wouldn't own the Shipyards after they do the work themselves and then sell off the property piece by piece either.
My main point about hiring someone else to do the work is that you're making a decision about whether or not you're capable of or willing to doing the work yourself. If you're not, then are you willing to pay someone for what you save in time and stress, and if so, how much are you willing to fork over for that?
At the end of the negotiations, the city may they think they get a better deal bearing all the costs of preparing the property for sale and keeping all the proceeds from those sales. If they're successful at it, great! Maybe it could turn into a model for what they do with other abandoned and crumbling properties downtown.
As of the initial proposal, there would be little to no proceeds for COJ.....other than having a developed property to look at and enjoy. If I read things correctly, Iguana wants COJ to give the land for free. Whatever profit Iguana makes from flipping enhanced land to other developers, it would keep. Ultimately, whatever money COJ throws into this, it will be that much less that can be spent on other projects like the Trio, Landing, etc.
Plus, taxed earned from the property would also have to be reinvested into it by the City, correct ?
^That's what it sounds like.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2015, 03:14:18 PM
As of the initial proposal, there would be little to no proceeds for COJ.....other than having a developed property to look at and enjoy. If I read things correctly, Iguana wants COJ to give the land for free. Whatever profit Iguana makes from flipping enhanced land to other developers, it would keep. Ultimately, whatever money COJ throws into this, it will be that much less that can be spent on other projects like the Trio, Landing, etc.
I guess I'm not looking at these early proposals like they're written in stone. There's going to be a lot more back and forth on this, which is when the real details are going to be agreed upon. I don't see any scenario where these initial proposals are forced on the city.
Iguana seems to have a vision for the site whereas the city doesn't seem capable of handling the project. Maybe they can prove me wrong. Like I said, that'd be fine with me! If the city moves ahead with Iguana, then I hope they manage to negotiate some things in our favor. A few quick options I'd see as starting points:
Option 1: Iguana gets the land for free and pays to clean it up themselves. They keep the money for any parcels of land sold to other developers.
Option 2: Iguana pays the city a fair price for contaminated land. The city cleans up the site. Iguana gives the city a portion of the proceeds from any parcels sold to other developers.
Option 3: The city cleans up the site. Iguana pays a fair price for remediated land and keeps the proceeds from any parcels sold to other developers. Iguana shuts up about how property taxes are spent at the site.
Like the posh conceptual renderings Iguana released in February, I agree that what's in the initial proposal will change when it's all said and done. I also believe that whatever public money goes into getting the shipyards off the ground will come at the expense of other deserving downtown projects. Unfortunately, we just don't have the funds to subsidize all of them.
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 04, 2015, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: Gunnar on August 04, 2015, 02:05:05 PM
Quote from: hiddentrack on August 04, 2015, 11:44:52 AM
The parallel I see is something like a home renovation. I suppose I could renovate a house myself, but I'd rather pay a contractor to worry about all the horrible details that would drive me insane. If the city feels the same way about this site that I do about renovating a house, and they want to pay someone like Iguana to handle that stuff, it's a reasonable thing to do.
It shouldn't come with a blank check, of course, and everyone should be clear about what will be paid for and what won't. I think that's all that's happening right now. Just because they're not in agreement right now doesn't mean a) the city is about to be screwed over or b) the project is doomed.
If these negotiations don't work out and the city wants to do some of the the initial work (environmental cleanup and site prep) before selling off parcels of land to multiple developers, that'd be fine with me. Even in that scenario, I'm sure Iguana will get in line to buy some of the land closest to EverBank Field.
The thing is that if you paid a contractor, it would still be your house with added value after the renovations. Will the city own the shipyards after Iguana is done ?
No, but the city wouldn't own the Shipyards after they do the work themselves and then sell off the property piece by piece either.
My main point about hiring someone else to do the work is that you're making a decision about whether or not you're capable of or willing to doing the work yourself. If you're not, then are you willing to pay someone for what you save in time and stress, and if so, how much are you willing to fork over for that?
At the end of the negotiations, the city may they think they get a better deal bearing all the costs of preparing the property for sale and keeping all the proceeds from those sales. If they're successful at it, great! Maybe it could turn into a model for what they do with other abandoned and crumbling properties downtown.
Your main point makes sense, except that Khan is not a developer at all. He's just a billionaire. So I may not want to deal with the hassle of a home remodel, but I wouldn't hire Wayne Weaver to do it. I would hire an actual general contractor...
However the ownership and cleanup and all the other BS shake out, Khan's proposal is the only real one and it will eventually get done. Its good for him, good for Jacksonville and its the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 04, 2015, 11:55:47 PM
However the ownership and cleanup and all the other BS shake out, Khan's proposal is the only real one and it will eventually get done. Its good for him, good for Jacksonville and its the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.
I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Unlike if Brown had won re-election, there is now a Mayor that must run for re-election, and this deal couldn't possibly be more one-sided against the city. If I understand it correctly, Khan's proposal is that he gets the land for free, the remediation for free, and all the taxes generated are invested either into his pocket or into the property itself (either way he will benefit). Lastly , he gets to keep all profits. There also doesn't seem to be a timetable or any guarantees on when he must complete the development.
If the city would do a RFP with all of the above stipulated, there would be other bidders. It has never done that.
Sam Mousa is in charge of the deal on the city's end, so we're in good hands in that regard. Clearly the project was proposed to be as favorable to Khan as possible, and negotiations wouldn't have gone much farther under the previous administration. Now the city has the opportunity to negotiate a better deal from the people's end while still getting a good project going that will benefit Khan as well as the rest of Downtown and the city.
Clearly Khan won't accept any deal he thinks won't be good for him, and we should want a successful project due to how big it will be for downtown. As per Hiddentrack's comments, here's my opinion here are some things I'd want from the city's end:
1.The city pays for cleanup, as we will have to do that no matter what. If additional cleanup is needed later, the city and Iguana can split the cost or Iguana can do it themselves.
2. We give reasonable other concessions to Iguana along with guarantees that something actually gets built or the property comes right back to us. Either Iguana pays a fair price for the land, or we factor the value of the property into other concessions that are made.
3. Tax revenues generated by the development aren't tied only to that site, that's crazy. But perhaps tying them to greater Downtown would be appropriate.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 05, 2015, 09:44:39 AM
Sam Mousa is in charge of the deal on the city's end, so we're in good hands in that regard. Clearly the project was proposed to be as favorable to Khan as possible, and negotiations wouldn't have gone much farther under the previous administration. Now the city has the opportunity to negotiate a better deal from the people's end while still getting a good project going that will benefit Khan as well as the rest of Downtown and the city.
Clearly Khan won't accept any deal he thinks won't be good for him, and we should want a successful project due to how big it will be for downtown. As per Hiddentrack's comments, here's my opinion here are some things I'd want from the city's end:
1.The city pays for cleanup, as we will have to do that no matter what. If additional cleanup is needed later, the city and Iguana can split the cost or Iguana can do it themselves.
2. We give reasonable other concessions to Iguana along with guarantees that something actually gets built or the property comes right back to us. Either Iguana pays a fair price for the land, or we factor the value of the property into other concessions that are made.
3. Tax revenues generated by the development aren't tied only to that site, that's crazy. But perhaps tying them to greater Downtown would be appropriate.
Number 3 is already in place as things stand now. The area is already in the Northbank TIF, so any increased tax revenues will go to pay existing and future debts of that area (which goes far beyond the Shipyards property, but fully within the DT Northbank). Of course that assumes the city itself does not 'rob' from the TIF, as it has done in the past. What Khan is proposing is that the new revenues be only invested in the Shipyards site only.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 05, 2015, 10:12:26 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 05, 2015, 09:44:39 AM
Sam Mousa is in charge of the deal on the city's end, so we're in good hands in that regard. Clearly the project was proposed to be as favorable to Khan as possible, and negotiations wouldn't have gone much farther under the previous administration. Now the city has the opportunity to negotiate a better deal from the people's end while still getting a good project going that will benefit Khan as well as the rest of Downtown and the city.
Clearly Khan won't accept any deal he thinks won't be good for him, and we should want a successful project due to how big it will be for downtown. As per Hiddentrack's comments, here's my opinion here are some things I'd want from the city's end:
1.The city pays for cleanup, as we will have to do that no matter what. If additional cleanup is needed later, the city and Iguana can split the cost or Iguana can do it themselves.
2. We give reasonable other concessions to Iguana along with guarantees that something actually gets built or the property comes right back to us. Either Iguana pays a fair price for the land, or we factor the value of the property into other concessions that are made.
3. Tax revenues generated by the development aren't tied only to that site, that's crazy. But perhaps tying them to greater Downtown would be appropriate.
Number 3 is already in place as things stand now. The area is already in the Northbank TIF, so any increased tax revenues will go to pay existing and future debts of that area (which goes far beyond the Shipyards property, but fully within the DT Northbank). Of course that assumes the city itself does not 'rob' from the TIF, as it has done in the past. What Khan is proposing is that the new revenues be only invested in the Shipyards site only.
Does the TIF district claim all property tax revenues? Either way, there's no way tax revenues should be tied only to that site.
But vicupstate, why are you responding as though we're at the conclusion of negotiations between the parties instead of at the beginning?
[1] Khan's proposal is the only real one, and [2] it will eventually get done (Lord willing), [3] it is good for him, [4] it is good for Jacksonville, and [5] it absolutely is the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.
Shad, in my opinion, deserves a certain amount of deference here and -- more importantly -- some understanding when engaging in basic business bartering (which is all that is happening right now).
Quote from: RattlerGator on August 05, 2015, 10:34:04 AM
But vicupstate, why are you responding as though we're at the conclusion of negotiations between the parties instead of at the beginning?
[1] Khan's proposal is the only real one, and [2] it will eventually get done (Lord willing), [3] it is good for him, [4] it is good for Jacksonville, and [5] it absolutely is the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.
Shad, in my opinion, deserves a certain amount of deference here and -- more importantly -- some understanding when engaging in basic business bartering (which is all that is happening right now).
My only quibble is whether or not it is "good for Jacksonville". Whilst I agree that developing the shipyards is great for Jax - and I have no quibble with Khan's proposed development - I would say it is good for Jax contingent on cost. If we get raped again to line some billionaire's pockets, it's not good for us. Although we definitely need to do something with that property - and we may have to compromise - we shouldn't allow ourselves to be taken advantage of.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 05, 2015, 08:41:12 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 04, 2015, 11:55:47 PM
However the ownership and cleanup and all the other BS shake out, Khan's proposal is the only real one and it will eventually get done. Its good for him, good for Jacksonville and its the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.
I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Unlike if Brown had won re-election, there is now a Mayor that must run for re-election, and this deal couldn't possibly be more one-sided against the city. If I understand it correctly, Khan's proposal is that he gets the land for free, the remediation for free, and all the taxes generated are invested either into his pocket or into the property itself (either way he will benefit). Lastly , he gets to keep all profits. There also doesn't seem to be a timetable or any guarantees on when he must complete the development.
If the city would do a RFP with all of the above stipulated, there would be other bidders. It has never done that.
I would not even call that a deal, or "issues remaining"...
Quote from: thelakelander on August 03, 2015, 10:05:51 PM
■ Iguana has proposed the city oversee and pay for mooring space for the USS Adams — for years, locals have suggested turning the retired vessel into a naval ship museum.
The DIA flatly rejected that idea.
"No. This will be between Iguana and USS Adams," the analysis says.
Wait, I'm confused on this point. Didn't the city already agree to facilitate and fund mooring for the USS Adams at the Shipyards, with the DIA managing the project? Hasn't this been the plan since 2013?
QuoteDoes the TIF district claim all property tax revenues? Either way, there's no way tax revenues should be tied only to that site.
Generally speaking, a TIF claims all tax revenues that are generated
BEYOND the level that existed when the TIF was created. In JAX's case, the TIF goes back many years, when property values were very low compared to today.
Sometimes School taxes are not included in a TIF and sometimes they are. I don't know how that works in JAX.
Quote from: RattlerGator on August 05, 2015, 10:34:04 AM
But vicupstate, why are you responding as though we're at the conclusion of negotiations between the parties instead of at the beginning?
[1] Khan's proposal is the only real one, and [2] it will eventually get done (Lord willing), [3] it is good for him, [4] it is good for Jacksonville, and [5] it absolutely is the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.
Shad, in my opinion, deserves a certain amount of deference here and -- more importantly -- some understanding when engaging in basic business bartering (which is all that is happening right now).
I honestly can't imagine how this so called 'proposal' could be more one-sided. It is so far from being reasonable that the city should not make a counteroffer at all. The next 'offer' should be from Khan, not from the city.
That site is NOT critical to the redevelopment of DT JAX and if it has to sit for 10 more years while the city returns to sound financial footing, and invests in other DT projects, that is acceptable. When you can't or won't walk a way from the table, you are about to get a REALLY bad deal, and that is just what Khan is counting on.
I have seen MANY private-public partnerships in MANY cities, and I don't recall a single one where the public sector has NO means at all to recoup it's investment, even if doing so took many years or even a few decades.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 05, 2015, 02:57:44 PM
QuoteDoes the TIF district claim all property tax revenues? Either way, there's no way tax revenues should be tied only to that site.
Generally speaking, a TIF claims all tax revenues that are generated BEYOND the level that existed when the TIF was created. In JAX's case, the TIF goes back many years, when property values were very low compared to today.
Sometimes School taxes are not included in a TIF and sometimes they are. I don't know how that works in JAX.
Well, however it breaks down, I think it could be interesting if all the tax revenues were tied to Downtown. That way it brings more funding for other projects while still helping the Shipyards, directly or indirectly.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 05, 2015, 02:57:44 PM
Quote from: RattlerGator on August 05, 2015, 10:34:04 AM
But vicupstate, why are you responding as though we're at the conclusion of negotiations between the parties instead of at the beginning?
[1] Khan's proposal is the only real one, and [2] it will eventually get done (Lord willing), [3] it is good for him, [4] it is good for Jacksonville, and [5] it absolutely is the kind of game changer that Downtown Jacksonville needs.
Shad, in my opinion, deserves a certain amount of deference here and -- more importantly -- some understanding when engaging in basic business bartering (which is all that is happening right now).
I honestly can't imagine how this so called 'proposal' could be more one-sided. It is so far from being reasonable that the city should not make a counteroffer at all. The next 'offer' should be from Khan, not from the city.
That site is NOT critical to the redevelopment of DT JAX and if it has to sit for 10 more years while the city returns to sound financial footing, and invests in other DT projects, that is acceptable. When you can't or won't walk a way from the table, you are about to get a REALLY bad deal, and that is just what Khan is counting on.
I have seen MANY private-public partnerships in MANY cities, and I don't recall a single one where the public sector has NO means at all to recoup it's investment, even if doing so took many years or even a few decades.
I'm hearing that Iguana understands the current deal isn't going to fly under the current administration, and there will be more serious negotiations ahead. I'm sure all parties realize this could take some time.
Also, not trying to defend Iguana, but they're taking on a lot of risk, too. They could lose a ton of money if this project doesn't shake out, as happened with the last two at that site, so its understandable they want to reduce their risk. Conceivably, a good deal can be struck with positive long-term outcomes.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 05, 2015, 03:25:12 PM
Also, not trying to defend Iguana, but they're taking on a lot of risk, too. They could lose a ton of money if this project doesn't shake out, as happened with the last two at that site, so its understandable they want to reduce their risk. Conceivably, a good deal can be struck with positive long-term outcomes.
Well, that's the nature of business, isn't it - no risk should equal no rewards. And if an investor is not willing to take any risk then... well, then he isn't an investor. This corporate socialism is really crazy.
Quote from: Gunnar on August 05, 2015, 04:20:09 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 05, 2015, 03:25:12 PM
Also, not trying to defend Iguana, but they're taking on a lot of risk, too. They could lose a ton of money if this project doesn't shake out, as happened with the last two at that site, so its understandable they want to reduce their risk. Conceivably, a good deal can be struck with positive long-term outcomes.
Well, that's the nature of business, isn't it - no risk should equal no rewards. And if an investor is not willing to take any risk then... well, then he isn't an investor. This corporate socialism is really crazy.
Even under this crazy deal it's not like Khan has no risk, far from it. From his perspective he's trying to reduce a serious risk on a property where projects consistently failed and that's been vacant for 20 years. However, that can happen without the city handing over the key to the coffers. Fortunately the city (now) has the right people on it.
^^ I don't see a lot of risk on Khan's part UNLESS he is guaranteeing that certain projects will be completed by a given deadline. Once he has title, he will announce a building, and if it does not pre-lease sufficiently to get financing and met with his approval, he can simply drop it. Plus, he will likely simply sell parcels of land (that he got for free) to other developers. If he gets $1, it is $1 more than he paid.
If Curry and the City have any sense, and if Khan really wishes to see that development skyrocket, they better address the Skyway, Streetcar or elevated pogo-stick trail to make this bloom. It will not happen on a true cosmopolitan urban scale without fixed mass transit stirred into the mix.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 05, 2015, 05:36:14 PM
^^ I don't see a lot of risk on Khan's part UNLESS he is guaranteeing that certain projects will be completed by a given deadline. Once he has title, he will announce a building, and if it does not pre-lease sufficiently to get financing and met with his approval, he can simply drop it. Plus, he will likely simply sell parcels of land (that he got for free) to other developers. If he gets $1, it is $1 more than he paid.
I don't have any other info than what I've read here, but it doesn't read as if there will be any property exchange. True, Khan is asking for the rights to the building pads, but I'm sure through the process of negotiations, that title for those parcels wouldn't transfer until there is something physically completed.
I still think that they major hurdle to this project will be the first one - land remediation. It's not cheap. But the fact of the matter remains, it HAS to be done regardless of what happens afterward. All of the other discussion of who gets what and how the taxes get spent is a pretty moot until the above gets green-lighted.
- Cap remediation spending at $40 million (clearly it's going to take more than $35 so let's do it right the first time)
- Make Khan responsible for any cleanup over $40 million and for the extra boat slips he wants (maybe the city has room elsewhere along the river walk)
- Property/food/alcohol taxes go to maintaining the shipyards (sidewalks, streets, facades, lighting, maintenance, landscape, aquascape, etc)
- Event/hotel taxes go to maintaining what Khan is trying to build (bring in USS Adams, upgrade stadium features, practice fields, bringing in events, whatever)
- City gets to keep parking money/small portion of event sales to help build better transportation system into the area (extend/improve skyway, rapid trasit buses to and from stadium/downtown/riverside/San Marco, 2 more parking garages (one by veterans Memorial on stadium property and one on the east side of the stadium) to replace the parking that will no longer be there.
PS I have no idea what I'm talking about so fire away if it's not possible ::)
Sounds reasonable to me, jaxjaguar.
I had been getting the impression that the City and Khan were at an impasse over remediation cost and the City investment. But I just heard from an insider that in fact, the city and Iguana are moving rapidly to some kind of deal. Lamping is scheduled to give his state of the Jaguars talk next month. I'm optimistic. And don't forget, the USS Adams folks are still full speed ahead.
Quote from: downtownbrown on January 12, 2016, 09:19:42 AM
I had been getting the impression that the City and Khan were at an impasse over remediation cost and the City investment. But I just heard from an insider that in fact, the city and Iguana are moving rapidly to some kind of deal. Lamping is scheduled to give his state of the Jaguars talk next month. I'm optimistic. And don't forget, the USS Adams folks are still full speed ahead.
Khan did just give Curry's political fund $100k. Though that amount of money is a drop in a bucket for Khan, people like Khan don't write checks like that because they are nice people.
Quote from: Steve on January 12, 2016, 09:24:10 AM
Quote from: downtownbrown on January 12, 2016, 09:19:42 AM
I had been getting the impression that the City and Khan were at an impasse over remediation cost and the City investment. But I just heard from an insider that in fact, the city and Iguana are moving rapidly to some kind of deal. Lamping is scheduled to give his state of the Jaguars talk next month. I'm optimistic. And don't forget, the USS Adams folks are still full speed ahead.
Khan did just give Curry's political fund $100k. Though that amount of money is a drop in a bucket for Khan, people like Khan don't write checks like that because they are nice people.
Correct, they do it because they expect something in return.
Without a doubt. Khan is not a philanthropist in these deals and we have seen that time and time again.
That said, it would be nice to see the city bite the bullet and clean up the shipyards so it can be used for some sort of purpose. If they can't get a deal done with Khan, just make it a temporary green space for people to use along the river.
It's honestly just mind-boggling to me how we can have such prime real estate sit and rot away. Unbelievable we still can't get something done.
I'm more optimistic of something beneficial happening now that Khan is moving the practice field and amphitheater off the property. That was the main reason he wanted it to begin with. Now we can focus on building something that really works for the space.
Yeah ever since the amphitheater deal went down I've always felt that it directly had something to do with the Shipyards deal behind closed doors. I admit I was all in on the practice fields being a part of the original plan but I believe the city, and many citizens believed the land, if given away, could be put to much better use and return on investment. Khan and the city agreeing on the amphitheater deal will trickle down into shipyards negotiations no doubt. Now with the least tax revenue producing part removed from the Shipyards equation, they can really get down to business if they haven't already.
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on January 12, 2016, 12:12:34 PM
It's honestly just mind-boggling to me how we can have such prime real estate sit and rot away. Unbelievable we still can't get something done.
The property is in fact not "prime". It is polluted river front acreage.
Even the most valued of properties can go undeveloped for many years.
Block 37 in Chicago sat vacant in the center of town for over 25 years with over 5 failed development deals before something took.
It wasnt polluted, sat on top of a subway and was across from the flagship Marshall Fields (now Macy's).
Some times certain spots will take longer than others.