Jacksonville vs Sarasota: Revitalizing Downtown
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4125050974_wXbwRv4-L.jpg)
Downtown Sarasota has become one of the hottest urban districts in the State of Florida. It's streets are now lined with sidewalk cafes, boutique retail shops, manicured green spaces and apartment/condominium towers. Can Jacksonville learn anything from the urban core of a metropolitan area with 1/2 the residents? Take a look and give us your opinion.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-jul-jacksonville-vs-sarasota-revitalizing-downtown
Good article, Lake. I lived there for three years before moving to Jax. Couple of thoughts:
Crime (and the perception of crime) is significantly lower in Sarasota then Jax. I felt much safer in downtown Sarasota than Jax.
Homeless people were few and far between. I'm sure there were homeless folks, but I don't remember them being so visible as they are here.
Much more foreign money invested in condos, businesses, etc. Sarasota is a top beach destination for Europeans.
What is the equivalent of St. Armand's Circle in Jacksonville? Beaches Town Center? Ponte Vedra Beach?
How about Siesta Key?
Lakewood Ranch might more comparable to Nocatee than North Port.
Sarasota wasn't built over night. It's taken decades to get to where its at today. Jacksonville has a VERY long road ahead of it if it wants to be compared favorably with Sarasota.
I like to look at urbandictionary to get a good gauge of what the average perception of a city is (non-sugarcoated). The overwhelming perception on ud is that Sarasota is a place for the rich & old among other issues.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sarasota
Sarasota's official song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOUYry_5Nw
In order to do a comparison, you need to see the Urban Dictionary entry for Jacksonville.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jacksonville%2C+FL (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jacksonville%2C+FL)
It is definitely not sugar-coated.
Definitely a less biased source than MJ.
^^^How about selecting the more meatier 'Jacksonville' selection on UD (which isn't all complementary, but far from all doom and gloom) than just one poster on 'Jacksonville, FL'. Oh, that didn't fit the agenda, my bad...
Quote from: I-10east on July 29, 2015, 09:20:49 AM
^^^How about selecting the more meatier 'Jacksonville' selection on UD (which isn't all complementary, but far from all doom and gloom) than just one poster on 'Jacksonville, FL'. Oh, that didn't fit the agenda, my bad...
I typed in Jacksonville Fl from the link you posted, and that is what came up. There was no indication that anything else was even available to read.
^^^Suuuure....
Quote from: I-10east on July 29, 2015, 09:46:19 AM
^^^Suuuure....
Try it yourself. Use YOUR link above. and type in 'Jacksonville FL'
^^^You passed up 'Jacksonville' (which is by far the most important city named Jacksonville) for Jacksonville, FL, okay; That one poster got thumbed down to an oblivion anyway; Seems like you would've selected something that the majority would've agreed, but that's beside the point...
Yes downtown Sarasota is very nice & gets lots of tourism mostly because of the gorgeous gulf beaches. However, my folks live in Sarasota and Dad drives a municipal bus. There is a HUGE homeless population in Sarasota. Maybe they keep them out of St. Armand's circle but they're everywhere else. Sarasota's sidewalks roll up at night; not exactly the place to be out on the town until the wee hours of the morning. Sarasota has a lot going for it as a tourist destination and for retirees, but unless you work in retail / tourism or are in the medical field there's not much to say about it for everyday living. I don't think it's a good comparison to Jax or a model for a town that anyone under 55 actually lives in.
QuoteHomeless people were few and far between.
My in-law lives in Sarasota and works downtown. There are definately homeless people in downtown Sarasota. In fact, homelessness and parking are the common themes people complain about in Sarasota when it comes to downtown.
Downtown Sarasota (while small), has a pretty nice 3-4 block area (even more of a reason to explore a targeted approach on the Northbank: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-apr-parklets-of-san-francisco/page/3 (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-apr-parklets-of-san-francisco/page/3)). It was a welcome surprise when I first went there several years ago.
And yes, the population swells during tourism season... is primarily an older crowd... and their economy mainly revolves around tourism-related industries and real estate (not unlike many Coastal Florida towns).
Interesting to note that former Shipyards developor, Ed Burr is now kicking the tires on a similar waterfront site in downtown Sarasota called the Quay.
Good article Lake. I'm a big fan of Downtown Sarasota and the city in general.
Sarasota has a couple of big factors in its favor that Jacksonville does not. Its located about 5-10 minutes from the beach, and the adjacent beaches just happen to be arguably amongst the nicest in Florida. In my opinion if Downtown Jax was at right on the other side of the intercostal, it would be easier to attract/retain office and retail uses.
Another big factor in Sarasota's favor is its cultural offerings. The Ringling Museum is the state's art museum and is managed by FSU which invests a lot of money and resources into it. New College of Florida is also located near the Ringling. It is a small school, but attracts high caliber students and faculty. Both are located a little further from DT Sarasota than the Cummer is to DT Jax, but they still help create an interesting cultural scene in urban Sarasota.
Due to the proximity to beautiful beaches, cultural offerings, and unique community character, Sarasota is able to attract wealthy people from all over. In turn these people have the type of money to sustain a diverse array of retail and dining. In my opinion if DT Sarasota was 15 miles from the beach and bay (like Jax), I don't think you would have the perfect synergy that you do between the wealthy residents and cultural offerings, and you would probably have a sprawling built environment like Jax does.
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 29, 2015, 07:16:05 AM
Good article, Lake. I lived there for three years before moving to Jax. Couple of thoughts:
Crime (and the perception of crime) is significantly lower in Sarasota then Jax. I felt much safer in downtown Sarasota than Jax.
Homeless people were few and far between. I'm sure there were homeless folks, but I don't remember them being so visible as they are here.
Thanks. If you're looking for the homeless, head north of Central Avenue, across Fruitville Road, into the Rosemary District. You'll find sizeable camps sleeping on the streets. Moreso, than anything I've ever witnessed in DT Jax at night. With that said, Rosemary is gentrifying, so it goes to show that having a homeless population will not stop people from moving to an area if it the general population believes it's worth the investment.
QuoteWhat is the equivalent of St. Armand's Circle in Jacksonville? Beaches Town Center? Ponte Vedra Beach?
How about Siesta Key?
Ponte Vedra has no clear center. So in Northeast Florida, I'd say Beaches Town Center, downtown Jacksonville Beach, Centre Street in Fernandina and St. Augustine's historic district.
QuoteLakewood Ranch might more comparable to Nocatee than North Port.
I forgot about Lakewood Ranch. It reminds me of the developments near Julington Creek and Race Track Road. Either way, despite rapid outward growth, they've still found a way to turn their core around. IMO, it's just more proof that we should not use the popularity of our suburban areas as an excuse to why we can't get our downtown right.
QuoteSarasota wasn't built over night. It's taken decades to get to where its at today. Jacksonville has a VERY long road ahead of it if it wants to be compared favorably with Sarasota.
Yes. Neither has Jax. We've been talking and investing in downtown revitalization since at least the 1950s. Today, our streets are filled with parts of various revitalization schemes over the decades. Examples include the closed courthouse/city hall annex during the 50s/60s, the Skyway 70s/80s, Prime Osborn/Riverwalks/Landing 80s, LaVilla's destruction 90s, etc.
Regarding Sarasota, back in the early 1990s, my family almost moved there. My dad was seriously considering a job offer to relocate and it got as far as us going down and spending a few days walking through houses and checking out neighborhoods and schools. Lakewood Ranch wasn't around and most of University Parkway between 301 and I-75 was still cow pasture. At the time, downtown Sarasota wasn't much to brag about. It was struggling to keep the retail it still had at the time. Malls like DeSoto, Gulf Gate, Southgate, Sarasota Square, etc. were pretty popular.
Like many cities back then, the gimmick to turn things around was to build a shopping mall (Sarasota Main Plaza) downtown. Sarasota Main was a two-story mall that opened around 1985. Maas Brothers was the anchor. It didn't work. Maas Brothers closed in 1991 and the mall was largely a vacant shell. In 2000, the city adopted it's downtown master plan (we adopted on that year as well). 15 years later, they're still incrementally implementing that plan and we're on our 3rd. If there's really one that stands out to me, it's seeing the benefits of developing a redevelopment plan/strategy and sticking with it longer than 4 years.
Quote from: vicupstate on July 29, 2015, 09:10:33 AM
In order to do a comparison, you need to see the Urban Dictionary entry for Jacksonville.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jacksonville%2C+FL (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jacksonville%2C+FL)
It is definitely not sugar-coated.
Definitely a less biased source than MJ.
I hope you're being sarcastic - whoever wrote this entry either has some serious issues or a rather odd sense of humor.
Ya... I don't know. I don't really think Jax should follow in Sarasota's footsteps. It is a retirement village and a tourist trap. Sure there is a bunch of development and it looks fairly nice but having been their a few times while growing up (since I'm from Lakeland) I always thought it was so generic and artificial. It has some nice things going for it but it's not the type of place that attracts anyone my age at least. Jacksonville has lessons to learn but my suggestion would be to not look too closely here.
I personally hate Sarasota - my folks moved there back in 1995 and I've never enjoyed spending time down there. But they love it. I do agree that the (relatively small) downtown is vibrant and walkable. They do have a "problem" with homelessness, though. There as a big scandal (last summer) over homeless people congregating at the courthouse downtown. It was almost funny how outraged the local press were. They were taking a real "Moran-like" approach of villifying/dehumanizing the less fortunate.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 29, 2015, 01:47:05 PM
Ya... I don't know. I don't really think Jax should follow in Sarasota's footsteps. It is a retirement village and a tourist trap. Sure there is a bunch of development and it looks fairly nice but having been their a few times while growing up (since I'm from Lakeland) I always thought it was so generic and artificial. It has some nice things going for it but it's not the type of place that attracts anyone my age at least. Jacksonville has lessons to learn but my suggestion would be to not look too closely here.
I don't think Jax should follow anyone's footsteps except its own. However, there are successful redevelopment strategies that places like Sarasota and Lakeland have attempted that Jax can apply in its own setting. For example, both cities have made an extra level of investment in keeping their DT streets clean, well lit, parks pristine, adding bike infrastructure, etc. Locally, we're not doing those little (image enhancing) important things (that led to private investment), yet we focus more on how to spend +$30 million we don't have on getting grand visions like the Shipyards off the ground or rebuilding the Landing from scratch. That's a lesson we can apply, regardless of the architectural standards, density or cultural demographics of the community.
Btw, what part of Lakeland are you from?
Quote from: vicupstate on July 29, 2015, 09:10:33 AM
In order to do a comparison, you need to see the Urban Dictionary entry for Jacksonville.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jacksonville%2C+FL (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jacksonville%2C+FL)
It is definitely not sugar-coated.
Definitely a less biased source than MJ.
QuoteFull of fat chicks with supermodel attitudes. EVERY, and buddy, I mean E-V-E-R-Y girl over the age of 16 is an unwed mother. The favorite vacation spot for most inhabitants is jail. The general landscape resembles a half occupied strip mall filled with vagrants and no end in sight, but people who live there love to say that it's the hottest city in Florida
I did chuckle.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 29, 2015, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 29, 2015, 01:47:05 PM
Ya... I don't know. I don't really think Jax should follow in Sarasota's footsteps. It is a retirement village and a tourist trap. Sure there is a bunch of development and it looks fairly nice but having been their a few times while growing up (since I'm from Lakeland) I always thought it was so generic and artificial. It has some nice things going for it but it's not the type of place that attracts anyone my age at least. Jacksonville has lessons to learn but my suggestion would be to not look too closely here.
I don't think Jax should follow anyone's footsteps except its own. However, there are successful redevelopment strategies that places like Sarasota and Lakeland have attempted that Jax can apply in its own setting. For example, both cities have made an extra level of investment in keeping their DT streets clean, well lit, parks pristine, adding bike infrastructure, etc. Locally, we're not doing those little (image enhancing) important things (that led to private investment), yet we focus more on how to spend +$30 million we don't have on getting grand visions like the Shipyards off the ground or rebuilding the Landing from scratch. That's a lesson we can apply, regardless of the architectural standards, density or cultural demographics of the community.
Btw, what part of Lakeland are you from?
On that point I totally agree that it's the little things that can really leave a good impression. Jacksonville needs to learn major lessons on this no argument! I would definitely suggest that for upkeep and general beautification Jax should look at Lakeland! I think they do a better job than Sarasota simply because it feels more organic and unique (I could be biased though).
I come back every six months or so and there is always some small yet beautiful improvement to the core neighborhoods. I'm actually here right now visiting my dad who lives off of Lake Hollingsworth. They have great painted bike lanes, a beautiful new round-a-bout *gasp*, a brewery on Lake Mirror and Munn Park has made some noticeable seating improvements. It's weird how when I was growing up here nothing ever changed but now there seems to be some great new life surfacing.
I agree that Lakeland is a better example when it comes upkeep and beautification of public grounds. I grew up in Winter Haven and lived in Lakeland before relocating to Jax. The firm I worked at in Lakeland was a few blocks from FSC and Lake Hollingsworth. That city has been very proactive when it comes to beautification and quality of life investments over the last 15 years or so. I think one of the reasons is that it has to compete head to head with larger neighbors (like Tampa and Orlando) and even smaller ones in Central Florida for economic development. You can't use the excuse that you're smaller than other community when it comes to economic development deals. You present a case of you offering a better deal for the target and if you don't, the target goes elsewhere. So there's a greater emphasis placed on things that could set it apart from nearby competitors.
Being consolidated and fairly isolated in comparison, that isn't a situation that Jax really faces. It's probably one of the negative effects of consolidation. Competition, in terms of quality-of-life and attracting business, within the county doesn't really exist. In Central Florida, a Mandarin, Riverside/Avondale, San Jose or urban core Jax would be its own entity and tax revenue generated within its specific borders would be invested in uses that best improve that particular environment.