Metro Jacksonville

Jax's Rapid Transit System Taking Shape

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4148987876_pbPXh5f-L.jpg)

Take a trip to downtown and you'll notice that Jefferson and Broad Streets have become a major construction zone. However, unlike most roadway construction projects in town, these are a part of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority's (JTA) plan to improve mass transit in Jacksonville. The transformation of this corridor happens to be the first visual signs of JTA's First Coast Flyer Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) system.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-jun-jaxs-rapid-transit-system-taking-shape

For the dedicated bus lanes in downtown, doesn't it mirror the Skyway too much? Wouldn't it have made more sense to do an east-west route across the northbank as a complement to the Skyway? The dedicated lanes serve very little purpose at least from what I can see at this point just along Broad and Jefferson as well. If this is not supposed to drive TOD around this vacant area, it is confusing why they are spending all the money for the dedicated lanes here. The east-west from the Prime to the Stadium District would make a lot more sense at least for usefulness in downtown and take more people to real destinations using the BRT from North and Southside.

So they are going to put dedicated BRT lanes on Riverplace Blvd and on King's Ave?  How is that going to work on Riveplace with DIA's new vision of that corridor?  And how will it physically kit on King's Ave without either eliminating the turn lane or widening the road? 

I believe that dedicated lanes in the Southbank will be on Kings only. The rest will just mix in traffic like MetroRapid does in Tampa:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/HART-MetroRapid-BRT/i-Vg3cPqH/0/L/P1740619-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/HART-MetroRapid-BRT/i-L6SL37j/0/L/P1740613-L.jpg)

Always neat to see the old road pavers, (and granite curbs in some places).

Good stuff. Would be nice to have been able to underground some of the utilities. Those wooden poles in the middle of the sidewalk along Jefferson are a bit of an eyesore.

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on June 26, 2015, 05:40:08 AM
For the dedicated bus lanes in downtown, doesn't it mirror the Skyway too much? Wouldn't it have made more sense to do an east-west route across the northbank as a complement to the Skyway? The dedicated lanes serve very little purpose at least from what I can see at this point just along Broad and Jefferson as well. If this is not supposed to drive TOD around this vacant area, it is confusing why they are spending all the money for the dedicated lanes here. The east-west from the Prime to the Stadium District would make a lot more sense at least for usefulness in downtown and take more people to real destinations using the BRT from North and Southside.

It will be a citywide system.  Here's the full proposed route and station map:

(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/4396021/brtcorridormap1*600.jpg)

Please. Please stop referring to this idiotic waste of money as BRT. It is not in any way, shape or form a BRT system. It may be an express bus at best, but the fact that the thing is in regular traffic for at least 50% of it's trip brings even the express portion into question.

What are the standards for Bus Rapid Transit? https://www.itdp.org/library/standards-and-guides/the-bus-rapid-transit-standard/ (https://www.itdp.org/library/standards-and-guides/the-bus-rapid-transit-standard/)

It's basically what many in the industry refer to as BRT-lite.  In other words, an offering of bus routes at frequencies one would typically expect in a city of Jax's size. IMO, in general, it's an improvement of what's being offered locally today. However, it's a failure if it's going to be sold as being comparable to fixed transit or something that will stimulate Transit Oriented Development (TOD). It's also not a good idea to say it paves the way for LRT or that it can/will be converted into LRT at a later date. In reality, conversion doesn't make sense on many levels.

I can't tell, does it have a stop at the SJTC ? If not, that would be a waste.

No stop at the SJTC.....Gateway, Regency, Avenues and Orange Park instead. The closest it gets to SJTC is Beach Blvd.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2015, 09:29:58 AM

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on June 26, 2015, 05:40:08 AM
For the dedicated bus lanes in downtown, doesn't it mirror the Skyway too much? Wouldn't it have made more sense to do an east-west route across the northbank as a complement to the Skyway? The dedicated lanes serve very little purpose at least from what I can see at this point just along Broad and Jefferson as well. If this is not supposed to drive TOD around this vacant area, it is confusing why they are spending all the money for the dedicated lanes here. The east-west from the Prime to the Stadium District would make a lot more sense at least for usefulness in downtown and take more people to real destinations using the BRT from North and Southside.

It will be a citywide system.  Here's the full proposed route and station map:

(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/4396021/brtcorridormap1*600.jpg)

If only some of those corridors had existing infrastructure. Like fixed rail that people like to invest around.

Given the city's development patterns and infrastructure, I think if we truly evaluated it for fixed transit, much of the routes would end up along different corridors.  For example, if considering LRT, JTB works better as a corridor than Philips or a combination of the S-Line/Main Street corridor would be more effective than BRT. Thus, if we ever get serious about fixed transit, I think it and BRT end up complementing each other in certain areas (such as Lem Turner BRT feeding riders into an Nassau County/JIA-to-DT Jax transit spine). This is pretty much how some of the best BRT lines in the country (ex. LA Orange Line BRT, Cleveland Health Line BRT, etc.) operate.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2015, 09:29:58 AM

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on June 26, 2015, 05:40:08 AM
For the dedicated bus lanes in downtown, doesn't it mirror the Skyway too much? Wouldn't it have made more sense to do an east-west route across the northbank as a complement to the Skyway? The dedicated lanes serve very little purpose at least from what I can see at this point just along Broad and Jefferson as well. If this is not supposed to drive TOD around this vacant area, it is confusing why they are spending all the money for the dedicated lanes here. The east-west from the Prime to the Stadium District would make a lot more sense at least for usefulness in downtown and take more people to real destinations using the BRT from North and Southside.

It will be a citywide system.  Here's the full proposed route and station map:

(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/4396021/brtcorridormap1*600.jpg)

I understand. I was just talking about the DT portion and where they are building dedicated lanes for the buses.

This is hardly a revolutionary transit 'system,' and certainly NOT RAPID TRANSIT by any stretch of the term. Don't drink the Kool Aid. As we've discussed over and over, this is just another bus, with a few extra gimmicks tossed in and labeled so that the masses expect this to be a sea change and the moment in history when Jacksonville goes big league. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

At best BRT is a very nice addition to rail, a improved, limited stop bus that moves slightly faster (although in practice there will be hardly a perceptible difference). We won't be getting some of the nicer world class BRT improvements because then the system would cost every nickel of what Streetcars would cost us. Without rail we will remain a city that is 'all taxi's - no airport.'

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 27, 2015, 01:19:45 AM
This is hardly a revolutionary transit 'system,' and certainly NOT RAPID TRANSIT by any stretch of the term. Don't drink the Kool Aid. As we've discussed over and over, this is just another bus, with a few extra gimmicks tossed in and labeled so that the masses expect this to be a sea change and the moment in history when Jacksonville goes big league. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

At best BRT is a very nice addition to rail, a improved, limited stop bus that moves slightly faster (although in practice there will be hardly a perceptible difference). We won't be getting some of the nicer world class BRT improvements because then the system would cost every nickel of what Streetcars would cost us. Without rail we will remain a city that is 'all taxi's - no airport.'

+1

I can't help but think that the places with dedicated bus lanes will probably only cause more net inconvenience than anything... unless there is some kind of smart signaling going on that helps the buses move through. I could see that helping at Jefferson/Broad during rush hour, but otherwise they are going to be governed by the signal cycles there. And your average person driving though is seemingly still mastering one way streets and right on red...

The other streets -- Forsyth/Bay east of broad, and especially Riverplace Blvd/Kings Ave (everything on the Southbank) -- really what was the last time a bus had to sit in traffic there other than maybe a rush before/after fireworks?

I'm actually really curious how the bus lanes are going to be accomplished on Riverplace Blvd -- it's 4 lanes w/ curbside parking spaces and a turn lane, and lots of cross traffic entering/exiting -- are they going to remove the parking or the turn lane or somehow accommodate it all?

(http://imgur.com/t0lowvY.jpg)

(Google earth has gotten scary lately...)

JTA contractors were standing up the new station signs on Jefferson today for the First Coast Flyer.

They had just finished standing up the Lavilla Station sign and there were a bunch of suits standing around looking at it. By the time I got around the block they had moved on.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5755/21492902003_382b0d1574_c.jpg)

Then 2 blocks down, they were just standing up the sign for the Courthouse Station.


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5777/22124098621_d9da7fc07c_c.jpg)

Meanwhile, nothing has happened in months on the 2 Bay Street stations.

Pictures of the first First Coast Flyer bus in town today:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/First-Coast-Flyer-BRT/i-KCNkGNq/0/XL/PFCg0N7hc1tFSzxJL3wmE-aHAp_UBGbE4hJT7jsZvMg%2Cem5Wk-J1kP4XKyE4vwQc-DRHTmPAXL1YEqS_-pSKHps%2CU4vNIIpS6B82546J94HVTuiEabkwscPsi7guN073hsk%2Cvs-Kp-6SLFDXueatY09cXeRUHA8hUKVCS8OJUfA3W1c-XL.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/First-Coast-Flyer-BRT/i-MRTFwqF/0/XL/vp7VeUf1QE_ZIklLef1i-uWDOnnf7OM-9AYOvxJ8cEE%2C8y1PzaVdKbfqbDZUEyGD9qy3P1mensMjfG96eL9k8o4%2CXZokCzdYKgxl-aWRR6Enxp7LO6psVejQ-mY38GKdHB4%2CZr4A-fzNzn7RmzPaFOCW7bvNMul9bMpjKTDO633G-Gc-XL.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/First-Coast-Flyer-BRT/i-Vd8wXPL/0/XL/V2K-wAEdPtqKXNAxVmFwCnhxMpZLUbw8C199eKZrE8E%2CPB-sonwx-6YimZ3dWfrBc2xhGPSa7iJ6L-ke7floOt8%2ChkiCc7MKSr49mefwDshfRsQOYQkpqNlKOSjo8Q7ixWE%2Cm9stvjhCozfWhVltwxwprgoVTdelWPqaDWJo7mWm0Rs-XL.jpg)

Orlando's Lymmo BRT
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2763584076_CnzFxw9-L.jpg)

First Coast Flyer looks like the Kansas City Max:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/i-ZjmPstW/0/L/P1380689-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/i-3N2Bxz6/0/L/P1380444-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/i-qcP36CP/0/L/P1380351-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/i-x6p9c2v/0/L/P1380646-L.jpg)

It's a bus, I'm not sure it calls for the mayor, a Congress women and a ribbon cutting ceremony.

Whatever, as a periodic JTA rider I'm just looking forward to more reliable and predictable bus service.

Nothing wrong with that, but the hype is a bit much. Busses on schedule should be the norm.

Yes it should, but improvement is worth noting.

Will there at least be shelters at these BRT stations in Jax? 

Yes.

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/rsn_flyerbus01_0.jpg)

Quote from: coredumped on October 12, 2015, 11:47:48 PM
It's a bus, I'm not sure it calls for the mayor, a Congress women and a ribbon cutting ceremony.

It was the firsts CNG bus... which is a huge step up from the current diesel.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 12, 2015, 10:42:33 PM

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5755/21492902003_382b0d1574_c.jpg)
Jacksonville

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/SunRail-by-HARTride-2012-at/i-SBtHkP9/0/L/IMG_20140514_165544_zpsd0e74666-L.jpg)
Orlando

Any questions?

Wow, Jacksonville is getting a 'Rapid Transit System?' OMG! Just look at that photo... I mean no other city has one of these, damn, I mean a sign like that should cause excitement from Tampa to Tupelo. I'm so happy,  I feel faster already.

This should answer the question once and for all; "Has Jacksonville finally arrived?" Imagine the TOD, imagine the jobs, the mobility, the crowds flocking to ride a bus, imagine!  Say, I know a town in Oklahoma that has FIVE stop signs and one yellow flashing light, talk about big league cities. AWESOME. 

I can see it now, 'Welcome to Jacksonville, Wart of the World and in the Armpit of the Great Frog,' apparently all of the waters of the world are contained in the armpit of the great frog. The confluence of those waters is in obviously over on Myrtle Avenue.

S U C K E R S !

Dont mince words Ock, what do you really think? (sarcasm)

Quote from: thelakelander on October 13, 2015, 11:19:18 AM
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/rsn_flyerbus01_0.jpg)

Anything I can do to help them understand what we are getting Spuwho!

Look at this image, except for a bus every 10-20 minutes, and some much needed digital data, there is NOTHING different here, the same stops, same shelters, same benches, same buses (albeit with a cleaner fuel), same drivers... We are getting a few more lane miles of bus lanes and a few less miles of auto lanes. Yes they'll have WIFI and real-time information (great improvements) but other then that and a different coat of paint they are claiming this will:

1. Revolutionize transit in Jacksonville
2. Be "Just like rail only cheaper" (look up the word CHEAP)
3. Serve as a true 'Rapid Transit System' 
4. Create a 'rail like,' avalanche of new private sector TOD

Sorry folks, this isn't even REAL BRT. At best it is a much improved quality bus service the likes of which we had in 1908. Real BRT that meets the international BRT standards for 'Bronze', 'Silver' or 'Gold' level service are the only bus services that have ever approached any of those goals and even then it's with mixed results.

Over the life of the project, even a 'BRT LITE' (read that BRT CHEAP) project higher operating, maintenance and bus attributed highway costs will prove within 10-20 years that BRT isn't the bargain cities are led to believe. The devil is in the details but here are a couple:
Maximum axle loading on most Florida highways?

Florida Statues 316.535 Maximum weights.—
(1) The gross weight imposed on the highway by the wheels of any one axle of a vehicle shall not exceed 20,000 pounds.
The new BRT low floor, CNG and other non-articulated buses weigh in right at 30,000 pounds meaning in operation, each bus is not far from the extreme limit of street axle loading.

According to a GAO study, Excessive Truck Weight: An Expensive Burden We Can No Longer Afford, road damage from one 18-wheeler is equivalent to 9600 cars... Guess what? Those 18 wheeler axles weigh in the same range as JTA's new buses.
(SOURCE: COMPTROLLER GENERAL'S
REPORT TO THE CONGRESS
EXCESSIVE TRUCK WEIGHT:
AN EXPENSIVE BURDEN WE
CAN NO LONGER AFFORD)

Since the highest costs in transit operations is found in the employee payroll, buses make less and less sense over a long term in a heavy use corridor. In the new NABI articulated bus: Passenger Capacity - Seated   43 in the 42' model and 63 (Single Exit Door) in the 60' model. While articulated buses can achieve a capacity of around 100 passenger each, JTA has no articulated buses in the mix.
(SOURCE:Vehicle Catalog
A Compendium of Vehicles and Powertrain
Systems for Bus Rapid Transit Service)

Conversely the Alstom Citadis 100% low-floor Streetcar's operating in Melbourne AU have a capacity of 231 passengers with 56 seated. The Bambardier Flexity 100% low-floor Streetcar's operating in Vancouver and Brussels have a capacity of 178 with 50 seated.
(SOURCE:APTA RT ST-GL-001-13
Modern Streetcar Vehicle Guideline)

The life expectancy of the vehicle is short: Large, Heavy-Duty Buses (12 Years; 500,000 Miles) (FTA figures) and there is a general push in the industry to shorten this to 8 years.
(SOURCE: FTA/USDOT
Useful Life of Transit Buses and Vans)

The Pittsburgh has this to say:
"Compared to typical bus operations costs, streetcar's may be marginally higher when calculated on a per hour of service, due to the maintenance of additional facilities that are required for streetcars. (Note that buses typically do NOT include the maintenance of the roadway in their costs) However, recognizing the higher ridership that streetcars encourage, operating costs for a streetcar may be lower then those of bus on a per-passenger basis. Furthermore, the life-cycle cost of streetcars is typically lower than the bus, due to the longer service life of streetcar vehicles (30-40 years) as compared to buses (12-15 years)."
(SOURCE: Streetcar Capital Cost Estimation;
City of Pittsburgh Publication)

Simply do the math over the next 40 years- to achieve the same capacity in transit we need a minimum of 3 buses and 3 drivers per 8 hours compared to each streetcar. Cost? Bus @ about $800,000 each, Streetcars @ about $2.5 Million each. Now consider the roadway re-pavement costs (currently about $1M per mile for resurfacing), labor, service life...

In the end you have a collection of buses that "they" (JTA) is calling "A Revolutionary Rapid Transit System" and on the other hand you could have a long-life 40 year rail system that really IS rapid transit.

Oh and STREETCAR'S DO NOT NEED TO RUN IN A STREET!

^
noted.
I have what I hope is a legitimate question for the Southwest Corridor:
If 22-26 stops are considered appropriate, and JTA is aiming to increase ridership, while FDOTs mantra is to keep traffic moving,
Can 2-3 more stops be added?


Perhaps one at Harow/Wesconett/Blanding?
There exists a grassy triangle at this intersection.

Confederate Point Rd / Blanding (near the  old dollar theatre) ?
There is an FDOT intersection improvement planned for this intersection; Can JTA and FDOT work together on this??

Cassat Ave/Blanding?
There is an empty lot between Pomade & Tonic and the church at this intersection,
and the Timothy Lane/Lake Shore Blvd commercial triangle immediately across Blanding  is suffering from abundant vacancies
(immediately north of the old Phoenix Lanes bowling alley Mr.Scott McAllister is revamping...)


Adding a stop on Blanding at Harlow/Wesconnet,
ANDConfederate Point Rd
AND somewhere on Blanding between Lake Shore Blvd and Cassat Ave
^
These are stop locations  which could boost ridership and improve quality of life for the entire inner Southwest side of town.

Anyone have any feedback to offer?



The current stop locations in this segment of the SW corridor appear to be located at:
Wilson / Blanding (Cedar Hills Shopping Center) which is abhorrently auto-centiric.
San Juan Ave / Blanding, a good choice
FSCJ Kent campus, also a no-brainer.

The Timothy Lane intersection of Blanding needs a BRT stop and a Ped Xing High Visibility crosswalk to effectively reconnect what the last widening and median installation severed.

Replace "Go" with "Flyer"?

(http://trn.trains.com/~/media/images/railroad-news/news-wire/2015/10/gotransit.jpg?h=400&la=en&mw=600&w=600)

Nice! I didn't know the TTC upgraded their commuter rail cars.