WEST PALM BEACH — All Aboard Florida's conceptual plan for a rail-side apartment tower would rise 23 floors above Evernia Street, with 275 rentals in a moderate price range.
The project's broad outlines, revealed in an open house for local residents Tuesday, represent a first step in the development process that remains open to public suggestions and several months away from the required government approvals.
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/aresize/835x529/img/photos/2015/06/02/71/08/HKS_PalmBeach_v01_South.JPG)
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/local/all-aboard-florida-unveils-plans-for-tower-beside-/nmTHd/
It looks great in conception, but it will somewhat dwarf the surrounding features of the Evernia/Datura/Clematis district. Who knows what the area will look like 20 years from now?
But the idea is clear, Flagler wants Miami urbanites to consider the train ride from West Palm.
It will be interesting to see what "sprouts" up in Ft Lauderdale.
Update on All Aboard Florida
http://miami.curbed.com/archives/2015/07/15/all-aboard-florida-downtown-miami-construction-update.php
Quote from: tpot on July 15, 2015, 03:08:52 PM
Update on All Aboard Florida
http://miami.curbed.com/archives/2015/07/15/all-aboard-florida-downtown-miami-construction-update.php
Thanks for posting this. Lots of videos included.
AAF has been producing more "on site" videos lately.
The details on the residential towers over the tracks was interesting. Having the CEO talk while standing next to the Metromover was a nice touch.
Yeah I thought the fact they are building two residential towers and office towers over the tracks was pretty cool......residential towers are planned for stops in Ft Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. I'm sure Orlando will be doing the same. A funny fact is this train station is being built in the same exact location of the original downtown train station that was torn down 52 years ago.......this location remained a surface parking lot for 52 years......
Quote from: tpot on July 16, 2015, 05:02:46 PM
A funny fact is this train station is being built in the same exact location of the original downtown train station that was torn down 52 years ago.......this location remained a surface parking lot for 52 years......
Very cool.
Maybe someday ABF will connect to Jacksonville, I would imagine Tampa would be connected first.....at this point Jacksonville just isn't a tourist destination compared to the rest of the state......
Quote from: tpot on July 16, 2015, 09:43:43 PM
Maybe someday ABF will connect to Jacksonville, I would imagine Tampa would be connected first.....at this point Jacksonville just isn't a tourist destination compared to the rest of the state......
Jacksonville is on the same parent company's track, Tampa is not.
Ya I think Jax would be connected before Tampa simply because it would be easier to get the rail access. That being said Tampa would be a highly profitable market so I think they will eventually figure that route out if the first leg is successful and connect the whole state. This is why we need to get started on making Jacksonville terminal accessible again so AAF can stop right in downtown and maybe bring some development with it. Also as far as tourism goes I think it could make some good sense expanding north because you would then have Daytona and St. Augustine connected as well which are pretty big tourist destinations.
They already have filed the paperwork for AAF Jacksonville Segment LLC. It's only a matter of time, assuming the Orlando/Miami leg is a success. Just another reason to get the convention center out of the old terminal, IMO.
^No doubt! Plus with the Brooklyn developments being right next door I bet that empty convention center space and surrounding empty lots would be eyed by AAF for a big mixed use development.
^Which would be a win for both AAF and Jax! For everyone who wants to see some passenger rail investment happen in Jax anytime soon, AAF is probably your best chance. No, it wouldn't be streetcar, LRT or commuter rail, but even intercity rail with stops in DT Jax and St. Augustine presents and opportunity for TOD around those locations and helps feed riders into our Skyway and future BRT systems.
Seems like AAF connecting to JAX would be a train to nowhere.....tourists come to Orlando, Tampa and South Florida......what are they going to step off the train to??? A bustling downtown?? The beaches don't compare to the West coast or South Florida and shopping is better everywhere besides Jacksonvillle......
^Only if you look at Florida as the only state in the US. Jax's challenge is to get its transit act together, so if something like this did come along, people could actually get to a few places outside of the train station. Both Tampa and Orlando have the same challenge now.
AAF is a HUGE opportunity for JAX, but the city really needs to get it together.......I know many think that a cheap apartment building in Riverside is the second coming, but that just shows what a disaster this city is when it comes to investment and development, especially when you compare it to the rest of the state....and the country....
Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 17, 2015, 10:34:33 AM
^No doubt! Plus with the Brooklyn developments being right next door I bet that empty convention center space and surrounding empty lots would be eyed by AAF for a big mixed use development.
Right, wrong or indifferent, the first thought that popped into my head? They said the same thing about the new Taj Mahal called the Courthouse. We tore down how many blocks of buildings in anticipation of the building boom?
Great recession happened- I get that. Not saying it wouldn't eventually happen- I remember when the Dames Point was the "bridge to nowhere".
I just don't think it would be anytime in this century.
Well the train wouldn't only be for tourists but also locals and the business class. Jax is a major population center in FL and there is a lot of business activity here so in that regard I think it makes sense, especially since they own the line already. Do we need to step it up? Absolutely but it probably won't be here for another 5-6 years anyways so hopefully with a new city government, a growing economy and some renewed spirit/hope we can make Jax an enticing market by that time.
Quote from: Houseboat Mike on July 17, 2015, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 17, 2015, 10:34:33 AM
^No doubt! Plus with the Brooklyn developments being right next door I bet that empty convention center space and surrounding empty lots would be eyed by AAF for a big mixed use development.
Right, wrong or indifferent, the first thought that popped into my head? They said the same thing about the new Taj Mahal called the Courthouse. We tore down how many blocks of buildings in anticipation of the building boom?
Great recession happened- I get that. Not saying it wouldn't eventually happen- I remember when the Dames Point was the "bridge to nowhere".
I just don't think it would be anytime in this century.
Well the reason I think AAF would develop at the Jax site is because that is what they have been doing throughout the entire line from Miami to Orlando so I would assume they might continue the trend if it is adjacent to a flourishing Brooklyn neighborhood which by 2020 Im sure it will be. It probably won't be massive like their other developments further south but they might be interested in building something. Really depends on what we can build here ourselves before they arrive.
⬆️ Yes, agree 100% I think ABF would consider extending to JAX, but only if JAX makes it downtown a destination........yes they own the track to JAX and have filed paperwork, but why spend the money to extend a train to nothing.........
Real estate development opportunities and connecting big tourist destinations like Daytona Beach and St. Augustine. I could easily see land adjacent to a station in those cities becoming some type of mixed use development featuring additional hotel space, restaurants, etc. Something that connects the entire east coast could also be utilized by residents traveling between cities or trying to reach larger airports, etc.
IMO, although larger, Tampa faces the same questions as Jax. Pay billions (since they have no infrastructure or ROW already in place) to get to Tampa for what? Passenger rail? That, alone is a money loser and putting it down the middle of I-4 doesn't exactly create great potential for freight service. Downtown Tampa isn't exactly vibrant either and there's not LRT, etc. to get you around to places like the beach, Westshore, etc. So, it faces similar questions like Jax does, in regards to local transit options and connectivity. The major difference is that the track is already in Jax, land for development is in abundance, Daytona and St. Augustine are served as well for a minimal cost, in comparison.
^^
While I would agree that Tampa does face many of the same issues as Jacksonville, I would disagree on your comments that the costs to get here would preclude AAF from building here first. The tampa extension is roughly half the distance as the Jacksonville extension would be. Since the route to Jacksonville would necessitate double tracking to accommodate freight, the actual construction cost would not be that much different for either line. Tampa would cost a bit more to build, however if you look at the 2006 Florida rail plan from FDOT they studied the number of trips between major Florida metro areas. Tampa to Orlando and S Florida trips versus Jax to Orlando and S Florida. Tampa has much more potential ridership versus Jacksonville. That is what AAF would consider more so than initial cost to build. What would the long term opportunity be to make money? If you have more traffic and ridership potential, that would outweigh any initial difference in construction costs I would think. Also, the trip time to Miami from Tampa would be less than 4 hours and still be competitive with travel by car (meaning it would take less time).
Freight possibilities to Tampa would not be an issue since they can't run freight on the line from Cocoa anyways, at least not on CFX right of way. Possibly they could on FDOT ROW on the eastern section. Even if FECR could get to Orlando, via existing agreements with Deseret Ranches that allow for the future possibility of freight on a new parallel freight track, they could build an intermodal center in eastern Orange County like CSX did in Polk County that would service the Tampa area from an hour or so away. FECR would not need to come into Hillsborough County proper in order to compete with CSX on intermodal.
^ the difference is the Tampa line would require coordination with FDOT to use the I-4 ROW...and Central Florida Expwy or Florida Turnpike Enterprise to get from OIA to I-4. That is a HUGE unknown.
Quote from: Brian_Tampa on July 17, 2015, 10:46:53 PM
^^
While I would agree that Tampa does face many of the same issues as Jacksonville, I would disagree on your comments that the costs to get here would preclude AAF from building here first. The tampa extension is roughly half the distance as the Jacksonville extension would be. Since the route to Jacksonville would necessitate double tracking to accommodate freight, the actual construction cost would not be that much different for either line. Tampa would cost a bit more to build, however if you look at the 2006 Florida rail plan from FDOT they studied the number of trips between major Florida metro areas. Tampa to Orlando and S Florida trips versus Jax to Orlando and S Florida. Tampa has much more potential ridership versus Jacksonville. That is what AAF would consider more so than initial cost to build. What would the long term opportunity be to make money? If you have more traffic and ridership potential, that would outweigh any initial difference in construction costs I would think. Also, the trip time to Miami from Tampa would be less than 4 hours and still be competitive with travel by car (meaning it would take less time).
Freight possibilities to Tampa would not be an issue since they can't run freight on the line from Cocoa anyways, at least not on CFX right of way. Possibly they could on FDOT ROW on the eastern section. Even if FECR could get to Orlando, via existing agreements with Deseret Ranches that allow for the future possibility of freight on a new parallel freight track, they could build an intermodal center in eastern Orange County like CSX did in Polk County that would service the Tampa area from an hour or so away. FECR would not need to come into Hillsborough County proper in order to compete with CSX on intermodal.
Freight will happen on the Cocoa/Orlando segment. It will mostly run at night. FEC will "pay" AAF for rights to use it as AAF has the ROW agreement with OOCEA and FDOT. Yes, I know same corporate parent, but a large distinction when recognizing revenue. Much of that $1.5B is going to go to build the Cocoa overpass and Beachline ROW.
Yes, Tampa biz community has been a bit obsessed with AAF Chapter 2. AAF was pretty blunt.....Tampa has a poor local transit network, not unlike Jacksonville, why would they risk their bucks when the community hasn't given transit a reasonable investment?
I wouldn't get to worked up on where AAF goes next, if they do anything. What they are doing today is considered extremely speculative and has no precedent in the modern era.
Jacksonville has the existing ROW, Tampa has the research showing viability. But Tampa is going to require another massive capital outlay, one that might take 10-15 years to realize. Either way AAF Chapter 1 has to fly first.
Quote from: spuwho on July 19, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Quote from: Brian_Tampa on July 17, 2015, 10:46:53 PM
^^
While I would agree that Tampa does face many of the same issues as Jacksonville, I would disagree on your comments that the costs to get here would preclude AAF from building here first. The tampa extension is roughly half the distance as the Jacksonville extension would be. Since the route to Jacksonville would necessitate double tracking to accommodate freight, the actual construction cost would not be that much different for either line. Tampa would cost a bit more to build, however if you look at the 2006 Florida rail plan from FDOT they studied the number of trips between major Florida metro areas. Tampa to Orlando and S Florida trips versus Jax to Orlando and S Florida. Tampa has much more potential ridership versus Jacksonville. That is what AAF would consider more so than initial cost to build. What would the long term opportunity be to make money? If you have more traffic and ridership potential, that would outweigh any initial difference in construction costs I would think. Also, the trip time to Miami from Tampa would be less than 4 hours and still be competitive with travel by car (meaning it would take less time).
Freight possibilities to Tampa would not be an issue since they can't run freight on the line from Cocoa anyways, at least not on CFX right of way. Possibly they could on FDOT ROW on the eastern section. Even if FECR could get to Orlando, via existing agreements with Deseret Ranches that allow for the future possibility of freight on a new parallel freight track, they could build an intermodal center in eastern Orange County like CSX did in Polk County that would service the Tampa area from an hour or so away. FECR would not need to come into Hillsborough County proper in order to compete with CSX on intermodal.
Freight will happen on the Cocoa/Orlando segment. It will mostly run at night. FEC will "pay" AAF for rights to use it as AAF has the ROW agreement with OOCEA and FDOT. Yes, I know same corporate parent, but a large distinction when recognizing revenue. Much of that $1.5B is going to go to build the Cocoa overpass and Beachline ROW.
Yes, Tampa biz community has been a bit obsessed with AAF Chapter 2. AAF was pretty blunt.....Tampa has a poor local transit network, not unlike Jacksonville, why would they risk their bucks when the community hasn't given transit a reasonable investment?
I wouldn't get to worked up on where AAF goes next, if they do anything. What they are doing today is considered extremely speculative and has no precedent in the modern era.
Jacksonville has the existing ROW, Tampa has the research showing viability. But Tampa is going to require another massive capital outlay, one that might take 10-15 years to realize. Either way AAF Chapter 1 has to fly first.
Agreed, they need to prove that MIA to ORL is successful before even thinking about expansion to either Jacksonville or Tampa.
For either expansion route, the cost will be expensive to build. I remember reading that the HSR project would cost $2 billion for ROW, track and structures. Not sure if that also included the cost for electric infrastructure. That was also for all double track, and I would think AAF will go for mostly single track with several passing tracks. I suspect that AAF could build it for about $1 billion or so for the 80 miles of new construction.
I remember reading somewhere that the 40 miles of new track/structures to Orlando was costing around $400-500 million, or $10 million a mile. I have never read that the $1.5 billion is for 40 miles of track and bridges along the beachline toll road. That would only leave $500 million for the rest of the route. Of course FECI has been very private about financial info of any type, so maybe what I've read and what you have read are not agreeing! :)
Freight can be run to near Orlando, as the Deseret Ranch agreement with CFX (nee OOCEA) allowed for construction of a third track for freight/commuter rail. And I don't know of any restriction on freight with the FDOT lease.
Tampa has made some progress at least with HART and their organization/leadership. It seems they are trying to focus on expanding bus service instead of adding new rail lines. Which is what they should be doing anyways here.
Sorry, didnt mean to imply the 1.5B was solely for the Cocoa/Orlando segment. But it will be the most expensive part.
Adding a second main on the FEC ROW is not as large obstacle as it seems. As Ock has noted FEC has a healthy set of sidings up and down the ROW that would simply be connected with the add.
For a Tampa route, it presents some challenges. Most of them have been well covered in this site previously.
How FEC/AAF would justify the Tampa route in a business sense isnt as clear. While the studies show good passenger volumes, AAF/Flagler needs associated real estate development capacity for the biz model to be effective. With Tampa already served in the freight side, I am not sure how AAF could leverage it. As Ock always says, passenger rail gets the ride, but freight pays the way.
The development anchor in Miami and the new build in WPB are good examples of what Flagler's goals are.
Quote from: spuwho on July 20, 2015, 12:39:33 PM
Sorry, didnt mean to imply the 1.5B was solely for the Cocoa/Orlando segment. But it will be the most expensive part.
Adding a second main on the FEC ROW is not as large obstacle as it seems. As Ock has noted FEC has a healthy set of sidings up and down the ROW that would simply be connected with the add.
For a Tampa route, it presents some challenges. Most of them have been well covered in this site previously.
How FEC/AAF would justify the Tampa route in a business sense isnt as clear. While the studies show good passenger volumes, AAF/Flagler needs associated real estate development capacity for the biz model to be effective. With Tampa already served in the freight side, I am not sure how AAF could leverage it. As Ock always says, passenger rail gets the ride, but freight pays the way.
The development anchor in Miami and the new build in WPB are good examples of what Flagler's goals are.
Yes, the real estate angle is what makes me skeptical of this coming to Jax (let alone to Tampa), at least not for some time. In Jax there may be some land they could buy, depending on where the station(s) go, but at least they have the ROW already. It's hard to see them justifying such a huge expense in expanding to Tampa - decent ridership potential alone isn't going to cover building an unproven connection to Tampa.
I would imagine if they ever decide to come to Jax you will see FECI quietly buying up land before any sort of announcement. There is a lot of vacant land around the Terminal. Even the north side of Brooklyn is just over the creek from the old platforms.
In Jax, there's nothing but moonscape owned by JTA and COJ surrounding the old terminal. That's about as large a chunk of land as you'll find in any decent sized city around a train station. Makes for a good master development site. While you won't end up with anything similar to what being built in Miami, there's various forms of development that could generate some cash. From what I understand, they've already been up here in the past exploring opportunities. Doesn't mean something will happen, but the idea is not as far fetched as some may believe.
Then there's places like St. Augustine and Daytona Beach. Two decent sized tourist destinations that may be suitable for some style of infill development opportunities themselves. On the freight side of things, as business at the South Florida ports grows, FEC will probably end up having to upgrade decent portions of the leg north of Port Canaveral regardless of what happens with AAF.
That's a good point, there probably a lot of real estate opportunities around the terminal.
Likewise in Tampa, a lot of the land around the proposed HSR station for the cancelled project, which is where I would assume any new AAF station would be built, is owned by FDOT, city of Tampa, and other government agencies based on my research of public records. That part of northern downtown south of I275 is primarily old buildings or vacant lots. Also, the Marion Transit Center for HART buses is next door to the proposed HSR station site. Perhaps AAF would offer to integrate a new bus terminal into the station like was suggested in Miami? I am sure that if AAF were to even consider an expansion to Tampa, they would buy up available property and possibly make a deal with FDOT and the city to buy their land. I could also see some street closures as well to enable larger parcels.
As much as the Tampa business and government leaders have talked about AAF, they would most likely be willing to work with AAF in much the same way as in Ft Lauderdale. There, AAF is wanting to buy state owned property and swap land with the city.
From looking at maps and google earth images, Jacksonville also has a lot of unused or underutilized property near the likely station site.