In a recent Ted Talk, Roman Mars discusses good and bad design principles of city flags. He also speaks to the power of a well designed flag. Unfortunately for Jacksonville's current city flag it violates some of the more important guidelines.
Principles:
1. Keep it Simple*
2. Use Meaningful Symbolism
3. Use 2-3 Basic Colors
4. No Lettering or Seal*
5. Be Distinctive (or be Related)
*rules Jacksonville's flag breaks
Roman Mars Ted Talk:
https://embed-ssl.ted.com/talks/roman_mars_why_city_flags_may_be_the_worst_designed_thing_you_ve_never_noticed.html
My response to Roman Mars guidelines in relation to Jacksonville's city flag:
(http://i.imgur.com/366nJlOm.jpg?1)
There has got to be something better suited than the status quo. I'm sure a few of you out there have even better ideas for a new symbol of Jacksonville.
Better scrap the state flag too then while we're at it ::)
It needs a few holes in it.
Visit Jacksonville!
4 real ya'll...
This guy makes a compelling argument for the positive feedback loop a well designed flag can establish. It is a visual tool used to build identity and culture, which both lack in our city.
The state flag is modeled after the battle flag of the House of Bourbon. The King of Spain was from Bourbon and when he married the Queen he brought his battle flag with him.
Its the same Spanish flag that flew over the castillo's of La Florida.
I consider the city flag quite progressive as flags go as it dispensed with many flag traditions. This represented the "bold new city" approach. The sun rising in the background shows we are on the First Coast. Obviously the sillouette of Andrew Jackson represents our naming.
Everyone is a critic and has an opinion, but I think its the progressive look that makes it subject to more critique than others.
5/17/15 has gotten off to a slow start...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Flag_of_Jacksonville,_Florida.svg/800px-Flag_of_Jacksonville,_Florida.svg.png)
Lose everything in the orange section - the "City of Jacksonville" wording and image of Duval. Keep the rest...
I have never liked the flag. Bad choice of colors.
I like the flag, except for the colors. That was a popular color scheme at the time, but of course, that changes. The COJ website version (blue and silver) looks great.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1499879/thumbs/o-POT-MEET-KETTLE-570.jpg)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 18, 2015, 10:28:55 AM
TED Talk reference AND its about graphic design? UGH. Pretension and uselessness doubled. Bleh.
I'm I allowed to just say you are stupid, or will that get me kicked off?
Thank you, Stephen. That was truly insightful. I guess I'm more concerned that anyone would think that this is an issue better left unaddressed. The design of the world around us is all we really have. The idea of not caring about symbols like flags is unimaginable to me.
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on May 17, 2015, 09:54:42 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Flag_of_Jacksonville,_Florida.svg/800px-Flag_of_Jacksonville,_Florida.svg.png)
Lose everything in the orange section - the "City of Jacksonville" wording and image of Duval. Keep the rest...
Follow me to the Equestrian Center!
Lol Noone, that's pretty funny.
Stephen will give directions via JTA :D
Interestingly enough, when we worked with the City on their Gen 1 ID Cards, we had to work Parks and Rec to find an image that actually had Andrew Jackson's head. Many of the images out there did not have his head in them. Probably some flags the same way too.
A quick google survey of NYC, Boston, LA, San Francisco, Boston, Seattle, Houston, Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta, Portland, Chicago, DC and Phoenix flags indicate that most violate the "no seal or lettering" law. Based on the guidelines, it appears that the latter four are models (Portland, Chicago, DC & Phoenix)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 18, 2015, 10:28:55 AM
TED Talk reference AND its about graphic design? UGH. Pretension and uselessness doubled. Bleh.
Calling the OP pretentious and useless when your contribution looks like this is pretty hypocritical.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 21, 2015, 07:03:12 AM
Quote from: Andy on May 20, 2015, 02:05:07 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 18, 2015, 10:28:55 AM
TED Talk reference AND its about graphic design? UGH. Pretension and uselessness doubled. Bleh.
Calling the OP pretentious and useless when your contribution looks like this is pretty hypocritical.
I am not calling OP pretentious. I am saying I find TED talks and people who go in hard on graphic design being some political tool to improve the city absolutely insufferable. Circle-jerkin' fart sniffers. If you disagree, feel free to do so. Just my opinion.
Than you live a narrow minded existence. Symbolism has been used to rally people behind one idea since antiquity. It is inescapably part of everything we identity with... To continue to try to break through this denseness would be a bad use of my time.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 21, 2015, 07:03:12 AM
Quote from: Andy on May 20, 2015, 02:05:07 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 18, 2015, 10:28:55 AM
TED Talk reference AND its about graphic design? UGH. Pretension and uselessness doubled. Bleh.
Calling the OP pretentious and useless when your contribution looks like this is pretty hypocritical.
I am not calling OP pretentious. I am saying I find TED talks and people who go in hard on graphic design being some political tool to improve the city absolutely insufferable. Circle-jerkin' fart sniffers. If you disagree, feel free to do so. Just my opinion.
You called me on the circle-jerkin... Love'em...
Congratulations Murder_me_Rachel, you've managed to turn this whole thread into a discussion of your indecency. God forbid intellectuals in their fields get up and speak to the masses about empirical scientific facts. Don't they know they are pompous a@#$%^es?
The discussion was flag design, not your problems with the world. I love my city and don't see how anything you have said has been constructive in that regard. This has been like sitting in on a city council meeting.
I think for Jacksonville to have a flag that is embraced city wide we have to find meaningful symbols that we all relate to. I think the categories of geography and economics are the two most important to draw from. We are on the Atlantic, we have the St. Johns, We basically are on the border with Georgia, We are a major port and Naval base. I think the trick is condensing down the identity of Jacksonville to its most basic geometric forms.
Quotesounds like someone who couldn't afford a ticket
Ted talks are pretty wonderful, and its a great way to democratize information that would otherwise be limited to the people who can afford to qualify for massive student loan debts.
I really like TED Talks too. You can watch them "for free" on the internet (assuming you've paid for access to the internet). You can listen to re-packaged talks freely on the WJCT. Attending an event is most assuredly cheaper than college tuition.
However, the cost & exclusiveness of their events has always bothered me. TED seems consciously structured as rather elitist -- in that sense, I'm not sure how effective or democratic they are outside of their niche (which I figure I probably inhabit, by the way). I wonder if TED is broadening the minds of people who already consider themselves to be broad-minded.
Back to flags, however. Graphic design is fundamental. But I was surprised how few city flags are any good. Jax is no exception there. (As an old Nation of Ulysses fan, I think DC's is the best).
How about the old CoJ flag?
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-fl-jk.html#old
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/u/us-fljko.gif)
QuoteField white. In the upper left quarter is shown a gateway, from which diagonally across the field is projected a green pennon bearing in white letters the word "Jacksonville." In the center rising above the pennon is a brilliant red poinsettia with green foliage. In the lower left quarter the seal of Jacksonville is shown. The flag was designed by G.D. Ackerly and was adopted by the Council as the City's official flag January 15, 1914. The design denotes, "Jacksonville, the Gateway to Florida".
Doug Bloudoff, 20 February 2012
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 21, 2015, 07:03:12 AM
Quote from: Andy on May 20, 2015, 02:05:07 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 18, 2015, 10:28:55 AM
TED Talk reference AND its about graphic design? UGH. Pretension and uselessness doubled. Bleh.
Calling the OP pretentious and useless when your contribution looks like this is pretty hypocritical.
I am not calling OP pretentious. I am saying I find TED talks and people who go in hard on graphic design being some political tool to improve the city absolutely insufferable. Circle-jerkin' fart sniffers. If you disagree, feel free to do so. Just my opinion.
"Hey guys I think XXX are a bunch of Circle-jerkin' fart sniffers. No, I don't intend back that up with anything, it's just, like, my opinion. Deal with it!
*oh please oh please someone argue with me*"
That old flag is pretty horrifying, but I never cared that much for the current flag either. The colors are my main problem, they seem to clash. I wonder if there was some sort of reason they chose those colors. Anybody know?
(just a copy and paste off wiki)
"The brown silhouette of a mounted Andrew Jackson is taken from a bronze statue in the downtown urban core. It represents the city's history and namesake. The sunburst represents a bright future. The map silhouette of the city/county with the St. Johns River through the middle shows the consolidated community and the large impact of the river. The color orange is significant in the sunshine state and two of Jacksonville's neighborhoods are named Mandarin and Orange Park.
A survey of flag design quality by the North American Vexillological Association ranked Jacksonville's flag the second best in Florida and 38th best of 150 American city flags. It earned a score 5.03 out of 10 based on simple design, meaningful symbolism, use of 2–3 basic colors, including no writing or seals, and is distinctive."
I bet they'd probably be ranked higher if they got rid of the "City of Jacksonville" wording, possibly lose the outline of Duval County and switched the orange and yellow color scheme to match the Seal:
(http://www.coj.net/App_Themes/coj2/images/new_welcome/Welcome_Seal.png)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 22, 2015, 10:03:23 AM
Quote from: Andy on May 22, 2015, 09:52:05 AM
"Hey guys I think XXX are a bunch of Circle-jerkin' fart sniffers. No, I don't intend back that up with anything, it's just, like, my opinion. Deal with it! *oh please oh please someone argue with me*"
That's just, like, your opinion, man.
Sorry you get so personally offended on someone offering an opinion different from yours. And, I would much rather someone say, I agree, TED Talks are the absolute worst, pretentious bullshit ever, than argue with me. But, go ahead and think what you want, I really couldn't possibly care less.
Your opinion isn't whats offensive, it's your general attitude towards everyone, all the time. Expressing an opinion and being a jerk about your opinion are different things. But whatever, conversation done.
Back to the flag, that does make sense about the colors matching the names of neighborhoods, I guess it just seems like a particularly loud orange. I don't think I would change anything even given the chance, because flags are rarely well designed anyway and at this point it's got a good deal of history behind it.
(http://www.weebly.com/uploads/5/8/9/3/5893096/5166221_orig.jpg)
This is my quick attempt at making a better flag for Jacksonville. It holds on to a few of the original elements but I added a few more for symbolism. I can't decide if this is still too much but I think it is a step in the right direction.
blue- the St. Johns River
6 silver stars- represents the 6 areas of Jacksonville. Urban core, southside, northside, westside, Arlington and the beaches
red pyramid- building a city upon the water even after the great fire of 1901
Andrew Jackson is the cities' namesake. (Although part of me wants to remove him just because of the negative connotation that follows him)
sun rays- a bright future in the sunshine state
trumpet- I placed this here as a nod to the music history of Jacksonville and the importance of the African American community
Thoughts?
I think that the city's flag is fine as it is.
Quote from: I-10east on May 26, 2015, 11:47:35 PM
I think that the city's flag is fine as it is.
I agree.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on May 26, 2015, 11:49:22 AM
(http://www.weebly.com/uploads/5/8/9/3/5893096/5166221_orig.jpg)
This is my quick attempt at making a better flag for Jacksonville. It holds on to a few of the original elements but I added a few more for symbolism. I can't decide if this is still too much but I think it is a step in the right direction.
blue- the St. Johns River
6 silver stars- represents the 6 areas of Jacksonville. Urban core, southside, northside, westside, Arlington and the beaches
red pyramid- building a city upon the water even after the great fire of 1901
Andrew Jackson is the cities' namesake. (Although part of me wants to remove him just because of the negative connotation that follows him)
sun rays- a bright future in the sunshine state
trumpet- I placed this here as a nod to the music history of Jacksonville and the importance of the African American community
Thoughts?
Follow me to the Equestrian Center for Jumping Class!