(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7370-whitesky3.jpg)
QuoteThe JEA tower — a dated Mid-Century Modern high rise topped by a Jetsons-style conference room — is a curiosity in Jacksonville's downtown skyline. It also represents another daunting challenge to an agency already facing financial and regulatory headwinds and a complex political debate over the city's underfunded pensions.
After years pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into its generation and transmission infrastructure, JEA now says its neglected 1960s-era downtown headquarters is in critical need of expensive repairs or complete replacement — either way, costs range from $40-50 million, according to a report to the utility's audit and finance committee.
QuoteJEA bought the downtown campus — which includes the tower, the neighboring customer-service center and a parking garage across the street — in 1989. The buildings, constructed in 1962, have never undergone major capital improvements, and JEA staff now says the buildings, particularly the tower, face costly problems, according to a staff report:
■ The tower's backup generator sits at street level, where it's vulnerable to storm surge or flooding. That means the building housing nearly 500 employees, among them senior staff and decision makers, could be without power for weeks in the event a major storm hits Jacksonville.
The basement is also vulnerable to flooding. A storm surge of two feet could cause the building's electrical system to fail, which could leave the building essentially inoperable for months.
■ Several critical systems, like the plumbing, are at the end-of-life stage.
■ Elevators frequently fail and their parts so old they cannot be easily replaced.
■ Fire protection systems have to be updated to meet compliance standards.
Maintaining the existing buildings would take $41 million.
Demolishing and replacing the tower would cost about $37.7 million, though the report notes there is "significant uncertainty in cost estimates" for that option. Leasing space elsewhere, a potentially more cost-effective option, is problematic for JEA because there are virtually no buildings that would fit its robust security needs.
If the board decides down the road to construct a new tower, JEA would want to keep a future building, and its some 750 employees, downtown.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/2015-05-11/story/tearing-down-jea-tower
Would the possibility be there for the JEA to help jumpstart the commercial aspect of Khan's shipyard plan?
Somehting akin to issuing bonds to kickstart the construction of a tower on the property with the costs offset by signing into a long-term lease and signage rights.
QuoteWould the possibility be there for the JEA to help jumpstart the commercial aspect of Khan's shipyard plan?
We have the jail on the river, so why not put the Utility on the river? NAS is on the river, so why not put all government we can find in Jax on the river.....wait, darn it, we moved the courthouse off the river.....what were we thinking? :o
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 11, 2015, 04:18:56 PM
QuoteWould the possibility be there for the JEA to help jumpstart the commercial aspect of Khan's shipyard plan?
We have the jail on the river, so why not put the Utility on the river? NAS is on the river, so why not put all government we can find in Jax on the river.....wait, darn it, we moved the courthouse off the river.....what were we thinking? :o
I don't want JEA owning the land, only renting space in one of the commercial buildings.
So....
Not at all like the examples you gave.
I have always thought that was one of the ugliest buildings in all of Jacksonville. Build new and tear it down seems to be the only option. It is amazing to believe how vulnerable the entire utility is in this building. This sounds LONG overdue.
Quote
Maintaining the existing buildings would take $41 million.
Demolishing and replacing the tower would cost about $37.7 million, though the report notes there is "significant uncertainty in cost estimates" for that option. Leasing space elsewhere, a potentially more cost-effective option, is problematic for JEA because there are virtually no buildings that would fit its robust security needs.
Doesn't sound like there are a lot of solutions to this problem.
How about build new and sell the old building? After all, it's not in danger of falling over. Some retrofit is needed but demolishing a building that size is probably a good chunk of the $37.7 million. Save yourself the demo costs and make a little money getting rid of it. If some extra property is needed, I'm more then sure, COJ has a few underutilized parking lots we can put a new building on. One is right at the corner of Adams and Julia.
I gotta question the premise here that a storm surge could cause the building to have a major outage. The building is in the middle of Downtown, correct?
How many floods has the middle of Downtown seen since 1962? My guess is zero. A two foot storm surge from where? The river? The sky?
If you want to tear it down then say you want to tear it down because thats what you prefer rather than hide behind a ridiculous 'what-if' scenario that is extremely unlikely to happen in the first place.
All new government buildings are extremely over engineered and over built in my opinion. This false premise is how that mentality is created.
Just my two cents.
Deferred maintenance caused by prior CEO's desire to not raise rates during his term.
Now that the reserves are consumed, time to pay the piper.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 11, 2015, 04:40:00 PM
How about build new and sell the old building? After all, it's not in danger of falling over. Some retrofit is needed but demolishing a building that size is probably a good chunk of the $37.7 million. Save yourself the demo costs and make a little money getting rid of it. If some extra property is needed, I'm more then sure, COJ has a few underutilized parking lots we can put a new building on. One is right at the corner of Adams and Julia.
Sounds like a good call to me. Building on a new lot would also mean they wouldn't have to worry about disrupting the whole agency while the new building is built, they could just move over when it's done. And maybe even (gasp) get some infill on an empty lot.
This (as MJ says) from johnctaughtme on the TU comments.
QuoteHas nobody else ever been to cities like New York, Chicago, San Francisco, or so many others? Buildings from the century before last continue to serve in a variety of ways both significant and less significant. Do what they will in Jacksonville with the Universal Marion Building, The Landing, and others for whatever reason they will, but for goodness sake, stop trying to "sell" us with terms like "antiquated", "dated", and "aging" for buildings which are not nearly as old as many still in active use and service in many cities.
Such stuff as this is why "Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage" is one of the favorite books in my library, but one which makes me increasingly sad and sentimental about my city.
I actually like this building.
Regency has some empty space for lease....
If this building is allowed to fall it will be a sad day in Jacksonville. As we careen toward the future buildings like that of the JEA Tower will begin to be appreciated. This was a quality building built for a major corporation. It is rare to find buildings anywhere that exhibit its characteristic. If this city ever wants to coin a school of architecture for itself buildings like the JEA Tower need to be celebrated and protected.
Why is there even a question ? This is an iconic building in downtown. The location is perfect and apparently it's the right size for the JEA offices. I think once it's renovated, it would be nice to see the Embers Restaurant back in business for evening and weekend dinners and events. Renovation should be the only option.
The building is a dump, City Hall has nicer offices than what is in this building. Renovating Floor by Floor would be a nightmare, as the elevators would first need to be replaced and even then a single freight elevator with 3 passenger elevators is by no means current as compared to other buildings like CSX, BCBSFL or other downtown buildings.
They would be better off with a new building, perhaps in Lavilla, where they have plenty of room to spread out and not build a monstrous structure. Federal Reserve chose to build a structure with new security instead of the old building where JFRD is now. The security there is pretty intense and it makes sense if they can build close to the new Transportation Hub.
Not disputing their desire to move out - go ahead. But why knock it down? Buy land (or a building or lease space) and sell the current building.
I was curious to find that the Universal-Marion Building has a direct tie to one of our biggest philanthropists, Louis Wolfson
This from Wikipedia:
"His Universal Marion Co. owned the Miami Beach Sun and the Jacksonville Chronicle newspapers and made movies through a subsidiary. The firm co-financed the production of Mel Brooks' first movie, The Producers, which won an Oscar and later became a major Broadway play.[6] The building now known as the JEA Tower in Jacksonville was called the Universal-Marion Building when the firm was the largest tenant. At its peak, his industrial and commercial empire had total assets estimated at a quarter of a billion dollars."
Another fact about Mr. Wolfson I did not know was that he also was the breeder and owner of Triple Crown Winner Affirmed.
How is demolishing and building a new structure on that site less disruptive than a potential power outage from a potential storm?
The building isn't even that old! If they couldn't maintain what they've got they can't maintain a new one either!
That conference room on the top floor is awesome with great views. It would probably be a bar/club/restaurant in bigger cities, and could potentially be one down the road if JEA sells the building. I'm not a huge fan of mid-century modern, but think the biggest issue with this building and old city hall are the colors. I think a little exterior touch up would make a huge difference. As others have pointed out, architectural styles go in and out. Who is to say this won't be a cherished style in 50 years?
Real shame is that there isn't a strong demand for downtown housing or hotels, or JEA could probably make out pretty well by putting it on the market.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 12, 2015, 09:03:42 AM
I am all for preservation of interesting, cool, old buildings. But this aint that.
+100
Maybe they can renovate the Old Jea Tower and move into that.
Quotethink the biggest issue with this building and old city hall are the colors. I think a little exterior touch up would make a huge difference.
How does changing the outside color of the building improve the functionality of the elevators or raised floor systems in the building? The floors are very much like those that were in the Southern Bell building, raised flooring, which is not used as much anymore. The building is obsolete without a major rebuild and if we have a hurricane, sounds like its in real trouble. Why not just start over, for the money, and then give the city the building, because COJ knows what to do with real estate :o, but get into some new digs for a major player of employees in Jacksonville, for years to come. Its embarrassing that they invite people from other power companies to come to meetings and events at these HQ. They were nice in their time, but its come and gone.
Quote from: marksjax on May 12, 2015, 08:55:25 AM
I was curious to find that the Universal-Marion Building has a direct tie to one of our biggest philanthropists, Louis Wolfson
This from Wikipedia:
"His Universal Marion Co. owned the Miami Beach Sun and the Jacksonville Chronicle newspapers and made movies through a subsidiary. The firm co-financed the production of Mel Brooks' first movie, The Producers, which won an Oscar and later became a major Broadway play.[6] The building now known as the JEA Tower in Jacksonville was called the Universal-Marion Building when the firm was the largest tenant. At its peak, his industrial and commercial empire had total assets estimated at a quarter of a billion dollars."
Another fact about Mr. Wolfson I did not know was that he also was the breeder and owner of Triple Crown Winner Affirmed.
This building was also the headquarters for Charter back in the 1970s.
The fact is, it is "trashed"" because they allowed it to get that way. If they actually cared about the building or what other power companies thought, they would have not allowed the building to get "trashed". So a great Idea, let's built them a new building so they can trash that one too!
I suspect that it is far cheaper to "trash" the building you have, build a new one and abandon the old one than it is to properly keep the existing building maintained and updated. The issue is then, we end up with a second JEA building empty and unwanted. Nice.
Quote from: strider on May 12, 2015, 10:59:05 AM
The fact is, it is "trashed"" because they allowed it to get that way. If they actually cared about the building or what other power companies thought, they would have not allowed the building to get "trashed". So a great Idea, let's built them a new building so they can trash that one too!
I suspect that it is far cheaper to "trash" the building you have, build a new one and abandon the old one than it is to properly keep the existing building maintained and updated. The issue is then, we end up with a second JEA building empty and unwanted. Nice.
Stupid.
Its not "trashed" by any means. The building has just not been maintained as well as it could be, by that I mean they only invest in critical issues to keep it safe and functional... Now its nearing its end of live and a major overhaul MAY need to occur, but its definitely not trashed....If you were the CEO of JEA im sure you wouldnt mind telling rate payers to expect an increase becasue they want new carpet in the lobby and tile in the restrooms to "impress" Duke and FPL reps. ::)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 12, 2015, 09:03:42 AM
Quote from: Jax Friend on May 12, 2015, 08:20:13 AM
If this building is allowed to fall it will be a sad day in Jacksonville. As we careen toward the future buildings like that of the JEA Tower will begin to be appreciated. This was a quality building built for a major corporation. It is rare to find buildings anywhere that exhibit its characteristic. If this city ever wants to coin a school of architecture for itself buildings like the JEA Tower need to be celebrated and protected.
I am all for preservation of interesting, cool, old buildings. But this aint that.
You're right, let's tear that B%#@# down. I can see it now, a starved classical design, all in stucco, no doubt. It could be the symbol of Jacksonville's new tomorrow. Can't wait
Interesting quote in the Daily Record Article:
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545426
Quote
"The goal is to stay Downtown," he said. "We are anchored to Downtown."
That could mean the only options would be to repair the building's deficiencies or tear it down and build a new structure on the site to replace it.
The estimated cost for demolition and replacement is listed in the report at nearly $44 million with the caveat that replacing the building would involve "significant uncertainty in cost estimates."
Moving JEA's more than 750 Downtown workers into a new space nearby likely would not be an option.
Finding 300,000 square feet of single-site office space Downtown for lease would be a challenge, said Traci Jenks, senior director of brokerage at Cushman & Wakefield.
She said that amount of space in a single building is not available for lease Downtown. It could be available in a suburban office park, she said, but construction might be the best choice for the size needed.
"It's more of a 'build-to-suit' opportunity for something that size," said Jenks.
At what point does the private market look at constructing an office tower? At 300k SqFt, it makes JEA an awesome anchor tenant, doesn't it?
Why not sell it and include a JEA campus as part of the Healthy Town buildout.
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2015, 11:38:51 AM
At what point does the private market look at constructing an office tower? At 300k SqFt, it makes JEA an awesome anchor tenant, doesn't it?
Hmmmmm....
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 11, 2015, 03:08:56 PM
Would the possibility be there for the JEA to help jumpstart the commercial aspect of Khan's shipyard plan?
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 12, 2015, 08:46:17 AM
They would be better off with a new building, perhaps in Lavilla, where they have plenty of room to spread out and not build a monstrous structure. Federal Reserve chose to build a structure with new security instead of the old building where JFRD is now. The security there is pretty intense and it makes sense if they can build close to the new Transportation Hub.
It is sad to hear the building requires so much work and even sadder that the owners of the building ALLOWED it to get into this condition. Folks need to take care of things!!
That being said, I really like the LaVilla idea! The cost to relocate employees for the duration of demolition and construction has got to be astronomical! Go out to LaVilla, build a historically accurate tower (remember DIA is trying to get downtown named as an historic district), then sell the current building, recouping some of the construction costs. And it is a stepping stone to revitalizing the LaVilla area, which the City desecrated years ago.
Quote from: camarocane on May 12, 2015, 11:13:34 AM
Quote from: strider on May 12, 2015, 10:59:05 AM
The fact is, it is "trashed"" because they allowed it to get that way. If they actually cared about the building or what other power companies thought, they would have not allowed the building to get "trashed". So a great Idea, let's built them a new building so they can trash that one too!
I suspect that it is far cheaper to "trash" the building you have, build a new one and abandon the old one than it is to properly keep the existing building maintained and updated. The issue is then, we end up with a second JEA building empty and unwanted. Nice.
Stupid.
Its not "trashed" by any means. The building has just not been maintained as well as it could be, by that I mean they only invest in critical issues to keep it safe and functional... Now its nearing its end of live and a major overhaul MAY need to occur, but its definitely not trashed....If you were the CEO of JEA im sure you wouldnt mind telling rate payers to expect an increase becasue they want new carpet in the lobby and tile in the restrooms to "impress" Duke and FPL reps. ::)
Actually others called it trashed or at least called it a dump. If the building is getting to be an issue, then they certainly did not do the required
maintenance and updates it required to be the building they are claiming they want. It certainly appears that they only did the minimum needed to keep it functioning rather than updating it as it needed it make it more useful for today. And it would have been bad to tell the taxpayers they needed to update that building through the years as that is so much worse than telling us today they are going to be spending something more than 40 million to build a shiny new one?
With all due respect, I would hope that the leadership at JEA doesn't adopt the mindset of "it hasn't happened recently so no need to worry about it." Why would the only major utility company in Jacksonville ignore what could happen to their building if Jacksonville got directly hit by a hurricane? Though it hasn't happened in decades, it still is possible. Unless people were around for Dora, I think many don't realize the flooding that a major hurricane would inflict on downtown.
Quote from: marksjax on May 11, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
I gotta question the premise here that a storm surge could cause the building to have a major outage. The building is in the middle of Downtown, correct?
How many floods has the middle of Downtown seen since 1962? My guess is zero. A two foot storm surge from where? The river? The sky?
If you want to tear it down then say you want to tear it down because thats what you prefer rather than hide behind a ridiculous 'what-if' scenario that is extremely unlikely to happen in the first place.
All new government buildings are extremely over engineered and over built in my opinion. This false premise is how that mentality is created.
Just my two cents.
I was just pointing out that one of the main reasons for the 'need' for the new building is a 'reach' in my opinion.
The ocean is 15 miles away. If there is a storm surge that affects the middle of downtown then I' m afraid that the JEA office's condition will be the least of our worries, lol.
As this was built right after Hurricane Dora I would think that was taken into account.
Besides that there are many buildings in big cities across America built 50-60 years ago that seem to be fine.
They are looking for a reason to start the plan in motion and I am crying foul on that reasoning as justification to build new.
Quote from: marksjax on May 16, 2015, 04:14:33 PM
I was just pointing out that one of the main reasons for the 'need' for the new building is a 'reach' in my opinion.
The ocean is 15 miles away. If there is a storm surge that affects the middle of downtown then I' m afraid that the JEA office's condition will be the least of our worries, lol.
As this was built right after Hurricane Dora I would think that was taken into account.
Besides that there are many buildings in big cities across America built 50-60 years ago that seem to be fine.
They are looking for a reason to start the plan in motion and I am crying foul on that reasoning as justification to build new.
Have you seen the pictures of downtown during Dora? But the JEA building does seem to be on a pretty high part of downtown. I hope they build new before leaving the existing building. Say ... don't they own a bunch of land on the Southbank?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 17, 2015, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: marksjax on May 16, 2015, 04:14:33 PM
I was just pointing out that one of the main reasons for the 'need' for the new building is a 'reach' in my opinion.
The ocean is 15 miles away. If there is a storm surge that affects the middle of downtown then I' m afraid that the JEA office's condition will be the least of our worries, lol.
As this was built right after Hurricane Dora I would think that was taken into account.
Besides that there are many buildings in big cities across America built 50-60 years ago that seem to be fine.
They are looking for a reason to start the plan in motion and I am crying foul on that reasoning as justification to build new.
Have you seen the pictures of downtown during Dora? But the JEA building does seem to be on a pretty high part of downtown. I hope they build new before leaving the existing building. Say ... don't they own a bunch of land on the Southbank?
Where do they own on Southbank?
That large parcel where the generating station used to be?
Or have they already sold it? I thought they were still entertaining development proposals (and I will be happy to be wrong).
They just sold it to Peter Rummell.
"Never mind."
But, as someone else said, there's plenty of vacant parcels downtown that could use a new office building.
With ground-level retail (not just JEA payment windows).
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 17, 2015, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: marksjax on May 16, 2015, 04:14:33 PM
I was just pointing out that one of the main reasons for the 'need' for the new building is a 'reach' in my opinion.
The ocean is 15 miles away. If there is a storm surge that affects the middle of downtown then I' m afraid that the JEA office's condition will be the least of our worries, lol.
As this was built right after Hurricane Dora I would think that was taken into account.
Besides that there are many buildings in big cities across America built 50-60 years ago that seem to be fine.
They are looking for a reason to start the plan in motion and I am crying foul on that reasoning as justification to build new.
Have you seen the pictures of downtown during Dora? But the JEA building does seem to be on a pretty high part of downtown. I hope they build new before leaving the existing building. Say ... don't they own a bunch of land on the Southbank?
I did a quick search and found an old picture of the St John's overflowing onto what might have been the riverfront parking lot of the old Sears store.
That surprised me for sure.
So, I must admit that there is the
potential for significant flooding in Downtown if we get another Category 4/5 hurricane.
But does their argument not raise the question of a viable alternative location on which to build the new building? I would think any building in this area would be subject to the same potential for damage. Perhaps they could make some changes to the existing generator and other sensitive items to get them up off the ground. Might not be cheap but probably much cheaper than a brand new building.
My cynical side would say that it's pointless to question their plans. Can preliminary plans for the "New JEA Building" be far behind?
(done by Haskell, natch). Gotta keep the narrative going to justify the rate increase we will all share.
Thats how we roll in Jax.
Dora was only a Cat. 2.
But, where-ever they build, even if restoring the Universal Marion Building, is their ultimate choice (which I doubt), they should take steps to put emergency generators where they aren't subject to rising water and other hazards.
Then that was a bad-azz Cat Two!
The beaches were for sure heavily damaged.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 17, 2015, 03:40:57 PM
They just sold it to Peter Rummell.
Not a done deal yet: http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0800960010
The property is under contract. However, per JEA.com, "The contract generally allows for a 365 day due diligence period. While under contract, JEA will not consider other offers for purchase or contemplate additional public offerings on the site."
I don't think flooding is the only issue. They need to keep their headquarters powered so they can manage the restoration of power to their customers. Maybe their headquarters (or at least their emergency management) should be at a generation plant.
Quote from: Elwood on May 18, 2015, 10:03:27 AM
The property is under contract. However, per JEA.com, "The contract generally allows for a 365 day due diligence period. While under contract, JEA will not consider other offers for purchase or contemplate additional public offerings on the site."
Oh I know, but as with everything else in this town, I'll believe it when I see it.
I just hope it's not a case of CEO ego wanting new digs.
Public sector facilities should not need to cost as much as we seem to pay for here.
It is the public's money they are spending...
Quote from: marksjax on May 18, 2015, 08:24:56 PM
I just hope it's not a case of CEO ego wanting new digs.
Public sector facilities should not need to cost as much as we seem to pay for here.
It is the public's money they are spending...
I agree.
QuoteI just hope it's not a case of CEO ego wanting new digs.
LOL, you obviously have never been in the JEA HQ. Its a dump and the elevators are old and rickety. It employs the same air management system that the Southern Bell Building (now Everbank) used to employ, before their upgrades.
QuotePublic sector facilities should not need to cost as much as we seem to pay for here.
Its a lot less expensive here than it is in South Florida.
QuoteIt is the public's money they are spending...
And there will be less of it if we get Alvin's plan on paying for pensions by raiding the coffers of JEA to pay for it.
"LOL, you obviously have never been in the JEA HQ. Its a dump and the elevators are old and rickety. It employs the same air management system that the Southern Bell Building (now Everbank) used to employ, before their upgrades."
So you agree that JEA has failed to maintain and upgrade their building. Why have they failed to do so?
QuoteSo you agree that JEA has failed to maintain and upgrade their building. Why have they failed to do so?
No building lasts forever. You can put silly putty and band-aids on the problems only so long. Many buildings get renovated, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida, CSX, Everbank, but some aren't worth it, old JEA building, old courthouse, old City Hall.
In the thread, it is stated the cost for renovation versus the cost for new. As the City grows around Hemming Plaza, it would be wise to give the City the land and buildings for additional growth. They have done a nice job of renovating City Hall, The old YMCA (Jake Godbold bldg). Besides, if a hurricane did knock out the ops center downtown, they have a state of the art facility located near I10/I295 that has the entire local grid available for operations. Far away from storm surge issues.
Quote from: Elwood on May 11, 2015, 07:18:15 PM
Regency has some empty space for lease....
Elwood.......ARE YOU SERIOUS? Keep JEA Downtown. We need all the action we can get, and keep downtown.
Quote from: CityLife on May 12, 2015, 09:15:50 AM
That conference room on the top floor is awesome with great views. It would probably be a bar/club/restaurant in bigger cities, and could potentially be one down the road if JEA sells the building. I'm not a huge fan of mid-century modern, but think the biggest issue with this building and old city hall are the colors. I think a little exterior touch up would make a huge difference. As others have pointed out, architectural styles go in and out. Who is to say this won't be a cherished style in 50 years?
Real shame is that there isn't a strong demand for downtown housing or hotels, or JEA could probably make out pretty well by putting it on the market.
This skyscraper was initially, and someone correct me if I am wrong, the IVY Building. Ivy's Department Store was there and businesses rented office space in the tower. I used to shop at Ivy's back in the 70's. In addition, in the late 70's, there was a nightclub up in the circular area at the very top; can't remember the name of it. But it was so cool to get on those elevators at night and go up to that nightclub. It had shag carpeting and of course 70's style with mirrors all around (I was a a disco club hopper back in the day). I hope they keep it, sell it, and build a new 40 story tower in LaVilla. (Pipe dreams)
The Ivey's department store was in the shorter building on the block. The taller one was the Universal Marion Building - with various offices in it. On top was the Embers Restaurant, which rotated. Eventually, the Charter Company bought the building for their headquarters.
It seems like JEA bought it and the company I was working for renovated the building in the early 90s.