Duval County Courthouse: Still stumbling in the Dark
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4640-p1090989.JPG)
$350 million finally approved, a third design team hired and four years later, the questions raised in this letter to our city officials still remain unanswered.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/813
Sadly it appears that they are nowhere near thinking about this issue or considering it in any way, shape or form. As usual I think it will be up to Metro Jax to put a fire under their a** and give them ideas and impetus to help shape and make the best use of the land around the new Court House in that area.
Heights Unknown
Quote• Courthouse consultant San Mousa says to expect to see visible signs of work on the new facility when drilling starts in August or September.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
I'll believe it when I see it.
actually, i have infinitely more confidence (still have to be a little skeptical though) when someone from the Delaney administration speaks on the status of the courthouse.
No doubt. Mousa seems like the guy to get it done.
this building is far too large and heavy, completely shattering west downtown's flow and fabric. not only would it take up too much space (regrettably none of it for outdoor public use), but the architecture is reminiscent of a parking garage facade meets a cheapened ancient greece. deplorable.
Looks like the DDRB approved conceptual design. I think they need to build this thing so 4 blocks of downtown can be accounted for. I agree the design and footprint are horrible but life needs to move on. Lets get this thing done. If it had not changed by now I dont think it is going to any more. Hopefully what is built around it will enhance what it lacks and they can make good use of that green space.
They really need to figure out what they are going to do with the remaining portion of the courthouse land. If not, its going to be a disconnected building that fails to stimulate the type of development that urbanities and downtown advocates are hoping for.
I completely agree Lake. It would be great to see a vision and development plan for perhaps a 2 block radius surrounding the new courthouse. The city owns much of the land and the rest is pretty much deserted fields or crumbling buildings. We should be actively pursuing development now that will help create a vibrant area once the courthouse opens. The vision should be high density mixed use development, and include height requirements, retail and restaurant needs, surface parking restrictions, residential needs, office space and landscaping/streetscaping requirements. Lets take each surrounding block, give it a number and assess the needs and vision. What buildings need to be restored and incorporated into development, what buildings can go. Could we create an economic district that includes special financing incentives for possible developments, including small business loans. We also need a plan for how the courthouse will be served with mass transit.
Why do I have this gut feeling that there is absolutely no thought going in to what happens once the courthouse is built. Will we be stuck with a whole bunch of surface parking lots and empty storefronts? Will the employees/lawyers and prosecutors have easy access to coffeehouses for breakfast, cafes for lunch and fine dining for the evening? Will the area be walkable? We can't assume just because it is downtown that it will be pedestrian friendly. I mean, this is common sense. Does Peyton even work anymore? I swear he got washed away with Fay. He got part of his Jacksonville Journey, not what? Someone light a fire under the man. Times are tough, so we need to get creative and be a little upfront about what this city needs and wants.
QuoteI completely agree Lake. It would be great to see a vision and development plan for perhaps a 2 block radius surrounding the new courthouse. The city owns much of the land and the rest is pretty much deserted fields or crumbling buildings. We should be actively pursuing development now that will help create a vibrant area once the courthouse opens. The vision should be high density mixed use development, and include height requirements, retail and restaurant needs, surface parking restrictions, residential needs, office space and landscaping/streetscaping requirements. Lets take each surrounding block, give it a number and assess the needs and vision. What buildings need to be restored and incorporated into development, what buildings can go. Could we create an economic district that includes special financing incentives for possible developments, including small business loans. We also need a plan for how the courthouse will be served with mass transit.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/LaVillaStreetcarMap.png)
Still think this is the lightning that sets the fire ablaze in LaVilla. It would be a shame to sacrafice this segment of our city in order to boost Water Street alone. Look at the TWO lines and imagine the infill.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
The fences have been removed from the courthouse site. Is something about to start happening or have they just completely given up?
Maybe they needed somewhere for homeless people to start garbage can fires.
Maybe they sold the fencing for Black Friday shopping funds.
Is there a City Council trip anytime soon? Maybe they sold the fencing to finance a trip to China for John Peyton. Are they going to use the fencing for the next Jaguar game? They could put it on the street so nobody can get to the downtown business.
Quote from: Lunican on November 25, 2008, 10:35:49 AM
The fences have been removed from the courthouse site. Is something about to start happening or have they just completely given up?
the last I heard construction is supposed to start in December
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 25, 2008, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: Lunican on November 25, 2008, 10:35:49 AM
The fences have been removed from the courthouse site. Is something about to start happening or have they just completely given up?
the last I heard construction is supposed to start in December
I sure hope so. If anything is going to spur development downtown in the next few years it's going to be the courthouse project. You have to figure that once it's built then the whole wave of people that make a living from the courthouse will start to move there too. Lawyers, Bail Bonds agencies, and places to eat all come to mind. Maybe it will also spur residential development in the area near the courthouse.
I still wish they would build a high rise tower such as the ones shown in this article:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/648/115/ (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/648/115/)
instead of the sprawling project that was approved.
Why not just copy and paste the courthouse from Las Vegas???? ???
Copy -Paste is no waste. $120 million and we are done.. probably save a little on the designing costs!!!
Umm, was it made with concrete or steel? ;D
MattnJax,
Most of the people you mention already work downtown--the lawyers, judges, court personnel, bond agencies, etc. (many are currently in the area between the jail and the Cathedral District).
The courthouse itself is an overpriced, terrible design that adds neither street-level connectivity nor architectural distinction to downtown.
If the city wanted to add a legal center that would spur economic development, they should take the same amount of money, go vertical on the old courthouse, address the street, and build/incentivize a complimentary project to lure Florida Coastal School of Law and the large firms that left for suburbs back downtown.
In all, the courthouse plan is seriously flawed and I'm disappointed that they are going through with it as is.
Quote from: JaxByDefault on November 25, 2008, 05:06:40 PM
MattnJax,
Most of the people you mention already work downtown--the lawyers, judges, court personnel, bond agencies, etc. (many are currently in the area between the jail and the Cathedral District).
The courthouse itself is an overpriced, terrible design that adds neither street-level connectivity nor architectural distinction to downtown.
If the city wanted to add a legal center that would spur economic development, they should take the same amount of money, go vertical on the old courthouse, address the street, and build/incentivize a complimentary project to lure Florida Coastal School of Law and the large firms that left for suburbs back downtown.
In all, the courthouse plan is seriously flawed and I'm disappointed that they are going through with it as is.
Yeah I know what you mean. When I say spur development, I mean for that section of downtown near Lavilla. And I agree it's seriously flawed and should be vertical, but in these hard times flawed development is better than none at all.
I think at this point, I would rather see no development on this project--at least until a better plan is devised.
Flawed development will take decades to rectify. Once the courthouse is built, the overall connectivity of that area of downtown is disrupted on those 4 city blooks for as long as the courthouse stands. Especially in a down market, money spent should be with an eye toward future development.
Quote from: JaxByDefault on November 25, 2008, 05:57:36 PM
I think at this point, I would rather see no development on this project--at least until a better plan is devised.
Flawed development will take decades to rectify. Once the courthouse is built, the overall connectivity of that area of downtown is disrupted on those 4 city blooks for as long as the courthouse stands. Especially in a down market, money spent should be with an eye toward future development.
Yes, yes, yes
At this point, its better to do nothing until a new administration is in charge as opposed to constructing a poorly designed half billion dollar six block sucking facility. Its been over 50 years and we're still suffering from the poor designs of buildings constructed during the Haydon Burns era.
With this said, construction on the building will most likely start pretty soon. The best we can push for is probably better utilization of the wasted blocks that will be created from the current design.
Lakelander, do you work in the field of urban planning anymore? I wonder why?
My firm, like many others, fell victim to the declining local real estate market. I'm doing contract work until I find a permanent place of employment with decent benefits in the field, which probably means leaving town.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2008, 11:04:52 PM
My firm, like many others, fell victim to the declining local real estate market. I'm doing contract work until I find a permanent place of employment with decent benefits in the field, which probably means leaving town.
Sorry to hear that Lake.
Drove by this morning and saw about 10 trailers on the job site. Looks like things are starting to ramp-up.
Don't hold your breath. I'll believe it when I SEE IT!
"Heights"
That Harris County Courthouse Tower in Houston sure looks good.
"Heights"
:( - Lake leaving? Boo hoo.
"Heights"
Quote from: heights unknown on November 30, 2008, 12:39:26 PM
That Harris County Courthouse Tower in Houston sure looks good.
"Heights"
Yeah I thought so too. It'd be nice if our leaders decided to go vertical instead of the land-engulfing, monstrosity that's going to be built.
Although the current design is less than desireable, the impact this building, the transportation center, and Bay Street Station will have on LaVilla is massive.
Courthouse... That is one BIG building
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/CourthouseLot-11.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ScreenHunter_01May020953.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedCourthouse-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedCourthouse-2.jpg)
These graphics help illustrate how poor the planning and design of this courthouse structure really is. This goes well beyond building placement and materials being used.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/ProposedCourthouse-2.jpg)
There are serious questions that continue to remain unanswered.
1. What happens with the left over spaces highlighted in red? Will this become grass lots, surface parking, urban parks or sold off for additional private development?
2. If the space becomes parkland, will it be passive or active? At this point, the last thing we need is more passive space downtown.
3. How does the design encourage pedestrian traffic from the areas highlighted in orange? What type of integration occurs between the structure and Broad, Adams, Duval and Pearl Streets?
Correctly addressing these questions will promote pedestrian synergy within a minimum 16 square block area. Continuing to overlook or ignore them will result in the creation of several permanent pedestrian dead zones throughout LaVilla. Its already littered with dead zones now. If we're going to spend 1/2 billion here, lets make sure we get our monies worth.
If we kidnap our favorite urban planner and don't let him leave... is that bad? I do know a few Colombian's Lake!
OCKLAWAHA
This is the age of technology. If I end up leaving, I'll be going to a place further along, in regards to urban planning, embracing well designed density and alternative forms of mass transit. So expect to get flooded with more examples of how to do things right being posted on this site and other media outlets.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 01, 2008, 01:08:21 PM
This is the age of technology. If I end up leaving, I'll be going to a place further along, in regards to urban planning, embracing well designed density and alternative forms of mass transit. So expect to get flooded with more examples of how to do things right being posted on this site and other media outlets.
That shouldn't be that difficult to find such a place.
I'm envious Lake. I've about had it with this city, and I will be right behind you. I'm sick of giving the morons who run this city my tax money. I'd much rather support a city that has a vision and is planning for the future with wise growth and sound investments.
It's not the city's "per se" fault, it's the elected leaders and others that are in power, it is their fault. You all stand behind Jacksonville and never give up; it might be you that will be elected or someone that you know from this forum that can change things for the better; don't give up on Jax.
Heights Unknown
Lake, the areas highlighted in red are going to be Jacksonville's newest pocket park. The current pocket park at Monroe and Main is overflowing with the homeless. We need a new place for them to hang out. Seriously, I agree with Heights Unknown. There are pros and cons to living in Jax. Mayor Peyton has a very low approval rating. I think we will see some change in city leader the next few years.
This is truly horrible design and land use at its worst and the blame for this debacle should be laid at the feet of that Boy Wonder Of Incompetence, Mayor Peyton.
BTW, I could live with a 4 block structure if it was beautiful like the Cannon designed courthouse but this garbage will ruin that end of downtown for decades. >:(
Quote from: brainstormer on December 01, 2008, 07:11:34 PM
I'm envious Lake. I've about had it with this city, and I will be right behind you. I'm sick of giving the morons who run this city my tax money. I'd much rather support a city that has a vision and is planning for the future with wise growth and sound investments.
I second this statement. Tax dollars are continually being wasted. Its always good to be positive and optimistic, but being realistic is what one should be here. Jacksonville and its leaders and the majority of residents dont care about a functional vibrant downtown. I've watched decades and decades past by with the same good old boy think big, but do small attitude here. This new courthouse--Lake, you mentioned about pedestrain traffic, well does the city know or care about what that means. Anyone seeking vibrant living, its not going to happen here,maybe, key word being maybe 30 to 40 yrs. How old will most of us be by that time? If you have the means and opportunity to look else where, do so, if not enjoy posting here.
QuoteLake, you mentioned about pedestrain traffic, well does the city know or care about what that means.
There are those who talk a good game but when you continue to see stuff like this come online it makes you wonder if people are in over their heads. There are good and bad examples in our peer cities all across this country and we still refuse to get it right. There has been more focus on the design of the building itself instead of how it fits within the black hole it created. This is unfortunate, because it shows we have not learned from our planning mistakes of the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 02, 2008, 01:40:15 AM
QuoteLake, you mentioned about pedestrain traffic, well does the city know or care about what that means.
There are those who talk a good game but when you continue to see stuff like this come online it makes you wonder if people are in over their heads. There are good and bad examples in our peer cities all across this country and we still refuse to get it right. There has been more focus on the design of the building itself instead of how it fits within the black hole it created. This is unfortunate, because it shows we have not learned from our planning mistakes of the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Well, to be honest with you, I would beg to differ about our city planning of the past. A lot of what the city had done was not so bad considering their good intentions of making downtown a great place to visit. I don't think that the new courthouse design is all that bad either. Hopefully, the city may one day put something good around it like a fountain or a couple of low rise buildings. Keep the Faith! 8)
Please understand that I do not like the design of the future court house. I am in favor of the vertical structure, which adds to our skyline and allows other development on the unused property.
However, I know that "E-Street" and the current entertainment / living options cannot and future enterprises will not take the risk to survive and thrive in that area as long as that decrepid courthouse remains.
My point is that with all of the budget cuts and the 7+ year wait we have had for a new court house, I am ready for them to build. I know it is not practical and I understnad many of the points you make for long term success with the proper design. However, I quite frankly do not care about long term, because I do not see DT ever making it back if we do not have something drastic happen in the short term (relocating the court house). I cannot see this project shelved for another unknown amount of years while the City redesigns it. Simple logic for that is I do not think the City will build it if they have the opportunity to put this back on the shelf. And though this could harm DT long term, it also could be just what we need for the short term that once again reenergizes people who are considering DT as a living/business location option. I deal with perspective property buyer's on a daily basis and this court house hurts badly in trying to sell real estate in its vicinity. If the goal is to boost our anemic DT population that currently exists, then something drastic must happen so "E-street" can develop with restuarants, night-life, shopping etc. That will not happen as long as the court house sits there and once we know it is leaving residential and commercial projects will come.
Again, just my opinion, I hope others do not criticize me to harshly.
Quote from: jeh1980 on December 02, 2008, 02:33:22 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 02, 2008, 01:40:15 AM
QuoteLake, you mentioned about pedestrain traffic, well does the city know or care about what that means.
There are those who talk a good game but when you continue to see stuff like this come online it makes you wonder if people are in over their heads. There are good and bad examples in our peer cities all across this country and we still refuse to get it right. There has been more focus on the design of the building itself instead of how it fits within the black hole it created. This is unfortunate, because it shows we have not learned from our planning mistakes of the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Well, to be honest with you, I would beg to differ about our city planning of the past. A lot of what the city had done was not so bad considering their good intentions of making downtown a great place to visit. I don't think that the new courthouse design is all that bad either. Hopefully, the city may one day put something good around it like a fountain or a couple of low rise buildings. Keep the Faith! 8)
Visit any of our peer cities, then immediately try finding five places not located in a hotel or the Landing for a decent Monday night sit down meal in the Northbank and tell me if you would feel the same way. If so, someone needs to share the kool aid. :)
Basstacular,
The "E" street (or whatever its called these days) dream is long term. What happens at and around the new courthouse site will develop
or not years before anything rises at the Bay Street location. At a miniumum, it will be at least five or six years before anything rises on the existing courthouse site. If there are public sector delays or poor economic conditions additional years will be tacked on.
Nevertheless, both are related issues (along with the convention and transportation center) and can not be planned in a vacuum as you suggest. We've done things this way for the last 50 years and a walk around downtown at night proves this is a bad model to continue to follow. At this point, without having any idea of how to plan long term or the will to follow an existing downtown master plan with each individual DT development, what would make anyone believe that "E" street will become a bustling district on the southside of Bay within the next 10 to 15 years?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 01, 2008, 01:08:21 PM
This is the age of technology.
Maybe so, but my house sill burns COAL and *slings lightning.
*(telegraph)
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteDelaney, 2 Peyton aides to testify in courthouse case
Grand jury given an extension to review.
Jacksonville’s former mayor and two of the current mayor’s top aides will testify next week before a grand jury investigating the Duval County courthouse project and its cost overruns.
Full Article:
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2008-12-05/delaney_2_peyton_aides_to_testify_in_courthouse_case
Confirmed. Dead space on Broad, Duval and Pearl Streets. A passive mini park at the Monroe Street entrance. I'm still wondering what will happen with the two blocks between the Monroe Street entrance and Adams Street?
DDRB OKs Courthouse designQuoteThursday’s meeting won’t be the last time the Courthouse project will be before the DDRB, however. Final approval was granted along with deviations from design standards on three issues. The design will not be required to include pedestrian entrances on Broad, Duval or Pearl streets in order to limit general access to the Courthouse as a way to improve building security. An addition, deviation was granted to allow the Courthouse to reach 195 feet in height, consistent with other nearby buildings including the Federal Courthouse.
The third deviation request was to modify the design on the Monroe Street side of the Courthouse in order to allow for a public plaza and landscaping to complement the development.
Landscape architect and DDRB chair Chris Flagg, who had recused himself from voting on the Courthouse review due to being a subcontractor on the project, left his chair at the head of the table to take up the laser pointer and explain the concepts behind the plaza design.
Flagg said the entrance to the Courthouse will be a “mini park†where people might have lunch under a canopy of shade trees. He also said the design includes half the minimum space between trees required by law (30 feet apart rather than 60 feet) since the Duval Street parking lot included in the design will not include shade trees.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=51371
I just vomited in my mouth a little. Who can shed some light on the DDRB? What is their purpose and who is on the board? Am I the only one who thinks their decisions on most things are the wrong ones for this city? Are they just puppets of our crappy mayor? I take it they are appointed, but by whom? Is there any way to get rid of the members? Why aren't they speaking up? Do they have emails? Enlighten me ;D
Who can shed light on anything they do. Why have guidelines, do studies, spend money on task force and then do the opposite of what you have just learned. Speechless.
I agree... Who are these people? What do they do? How did they get there? How are they appointed? How are they removed? What is the process? Are decisions reviewable? By Who? Do they have a website? Email? Are they really vampires?
All right, my anger got the best of me so I started researching. I've posted the board members below. They seem to be a well credentialed bunch, but obviously lacking in leadership, vision, guts and common sense. I wonder how many gave money to Peyton's campaign. ;)
Members
Chair- Christopher D. Flagg RLA, ASLA, Flagg Design Studio, LLC - Landscape Architect Representative
Vice-Chair- James F. Bailey, Jr., Bailey Publishing and Communications, Inc. - Downtown Property Owner Representative
Secretary- Jonathon Garza, W.G. Mills, Inc. - Contractor/Developer/ Realtor Representative
Timothy Miller, Ervin Lovett and Miller - Downtown Property Owner Representative
Logan Rink, 13 Minute Productions, LLC - Downtown Property Owner Representative
Montasser M. Selim, Reynolds, Smith & Hill (RS&H) - Urban Planner Representative
Andy Sikes, Baptist Health - Urban Planner Representative
Roland Udenze, Haskell Architects and Engineers - Architect Representative
Rose Zurawski, Gresham Smith and Partners - Architect Representative
On another note, if you follow the link below, you can click on the agenda from this past Thursday's meeting. If you scroll down to page 22, you can view the final presentation of the courthouse design; many scaled drawings included. This thing is worse than I first thought. It does not fit into our downtown at all. It is huge and ugly and looks like a Mega Block in a set of LEGOs!!! The only public entrance faces a parking garage! I could go on and on. I'm embarrassed for Jacksonville. A true waste of money. I think I'll cry and then open a bottle of wine. :'(
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville+Economic+Development+Commission/Downtown+Development/DDRB+Meeting+Information.htm
Thanks for the research... enjoy the wine... :D
I forgot how soul destroyingly ugly and poorly designed the proposed courthouse was for a few days. Is there any way this can be delayed until we can elect a new mayor with vision and good taste? :(
Quote from: RiversideGator on December 12, 2008, 12:00:46 AM
soul destroyingly ugly
An apt --and perhaps understated --description of the proposed courthouse.
Assuming environmental is cleared, courthouse opposition is left with market forces, massive citizen outcry, or the discovery of bid/contract procurement irregularities. Other than that, prey the first backhoe finds a massive archaeological site.
Mayor Peyton is seeking stimulus dollars for the courthouse from the proposed stimulus 2 plan. We as citizens should force this on the next administration. Let's make this courthouse vertical and sell the land around it. It's downtown. I dare to find a courthouse in any city our size that has the same footprint?????
reading through the minutes just blows my mind. Look at the conversation about allowing BofA to add signs to their building.It will create a "messy" skyline..give me a break.
Check out the October courthouse design meeting minutes between the board and Councilman Bishop. Bishop really knows his stuff. Its just too bad no one really paid attention to him. Anyway, according to these presentations, the courthouse should be breaking ground pretty soon.
Bishop made some excellent comments about the courthouse design and it's long-term negative impact on downtown development. It is a shame his comments were not met with more support.
My favorite part of the presentation is the acknowledgement that the "greenspace"/ "pedestrian-friendly plaza" is really just space for future horizontal expansion.
Quote from: alta on December 12, 2008, 01:23:53 PM
Mayor Peyton is seeking stimulus dollars for the courthouse from the proposed stimulus 2 plan. We as citizens should force this on the next administration. Let's make this courthouse vertical and sell the land around it. It's downtown. I dare to find a courthouse in any city our size that has the same footprint?????
I wish we could, but it looks like the courthouse is about to break ground, and the Peyton administration doesn't leave office til 2011.
Quote from: alta on December 12, 2008, 01:23:53 PM
I dare to find a courthouse in any city our size that has the same footprint?????
I'll take the dare...how about all the federal buildings in Washington D.C.
I just saw on CH4 that the courthouse has been (again) delayed, and that they're not breaking ground anytime soon. I caught the end of it so I don't any anymore details, did anyone else catch the 6pm ch4 broadcast?
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 12, 2008, 09:14:25 PM
Quote from: alta on December 12, 2008, 01:23:53 PM
I dare to find a courthouse in any city our size that has the same footprint?????
I'll take the dare...how about all the federal buildings in Washington D.C.
And how well do those integrate into the surrounding areas and aid in creating vibrancy on the streets surrounding them? The federal buildings in DC which do not attract tourists create a dead zone around them IMO.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 12, 2008, 09:14:25 PM
Quote from: alta on December 12, 2008, 01:23:53 PM
I dare to find a courthouse in any city our size that has the same footprint?????
I'll take the dare...how about all the federal buildings in Washington D.C.
Not even comparable:
1) DC metro area is four times our metro population
2) DC still has that height ordinance (for now)
3) Those aren't new buildings...if DC were taking proposals for a new courthouse today, I'd imagine they'd plan on using the land area more effectively, considering how concerned they've been about running out of space.
I think there would be less complaints if the complex grounds included a mix of uses that attracted people to the area. Many of the DC federal buildings include street level dining options and well designed public spaces & courtyards. The blocks are also mixed with museums, galleries, memorials, spots for street vendors to operate and retail uses (ex. old post office). Although it may not bustle at night like a U Street, Adams Morgan or Georgetown, its a far cry from whats taking place locally.
DC's old post office is located in the middle of several federal buildings.
(http://tompowellphotography.com/gallery/albums/Places/Old_Post_Office_Washington_DC.jpg)
A true urbanite has to love the way DC's federal buildings were designed not to waste any land. If designed in a similar manner with respect towards the pedestrian, our courthouse could be the same height and still consume less land.
(http://www.visitingdc.com/images/pennsylvania-avenue.jpg)
QuoteGround Won't be Broken Early in Duval Courthouse Project
JACKSONVILLE, FL -- The site of the future Duval County Courthouse still sits empty. There was supposed to be some work going on at the site by now. That's what Mayor John Peyton said a couple of months ago.
Instead, the property looks the same. There's no construction equipment, no construction crews. The reason: because the City has decided to wait on breaking ground until the Spring.
Brian Baldwin has been waiting years to see the new courthouse. "Some day it will happen. When, it's a crapshoot, but I hope I can hang on until it does."
Baldwin set up his hot dog sidewalk business yards from the site, because he thought there would be a courthouse by now. "The key to my business is walk-by traffic," which he says is slim these days.
Full Article:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=127500&catid=3
I bought a few dogs from this guy last week. He told me he has been waiting on the courthouse for nearly seven years. By the way, he's got some of the cheapest hotdogs in downtown. A $1.00 for one or two, a drink and a bag of chips for $3.00.
I wonder if Peyton is starting to rethink things again... I'd be suprised if this thing starts before 2010.
Lake, you gotta stop by and see "JagMan" off of 17 on Wabash across from the VyStar. Best in town and same prices.
Its probably gone up in price again. Who knows, maybe that's what they really want that transit money for.
Thanks for the "JagMan" tip.
This was mentioned a few weeks back...its not Peyton's fault....
the new City Council Chairman (Ronnie Fussel) asked him to delay groundbreaking until they could get a firm fixed price from the contractor....apparently that will be about 3 months because they'll need to get agreements from all the subs.
Thanks for the update.
Unbelieveable. At this point, I'm not sure we shouldn't wait until July 2011 to let someone get a crack at this thing. This has been such a disaster. I don't blame Fussell for wanting a price. Peyton hasn't exactly been one to trust on this project.
I'm going to lauch when Peyton tries to hold a ribbon cutting ceremoney on a building 70% complete. I can just seen scaffolding in the background, and his news conference being interrupted by the sound of cutting metal.
tufsu 1, I think you are the only member on here who consistently defends Peyton on everything. Are you really Peyton in disguise, just defending yourself? ;)
He's Peyton in the Closet; Come out of your closet Mr. Mayor (Peyton) and let us see your inner most being.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: brainstormer on January 06, 2009, 06:55:09 PM
tufsu 1, I think you are the only member on here who consistently defends Peyton on everything. Are you really Peyton in disguise, just defending yourself? ;)
yes, I am Mayor Peyton...and contrary to popular belief, I know quite a lot about urban issues...in fact, I even have a Masters degree in Urban Planning...and better yet, a specialization in transportation planning!
Seriously, I think Peyton is responsible for almost all of the delays and cost issues related to the courthouse...just not this time...this one was requested, for good reason, by the City Council.
Of course this could backfire...by March/April some contractors might be getting work as a result of the federal stimulus package...and might not be so eager to offer a good price to the City just to get the work.
You dont think it will take longer than March/April for the federal spending to begin to turn into actual construction projects?
Incompetence at all levels is to blame for the delay. Will we have a high rise to replace the current design? Probably not. The proposal to spend an additional $148 million on the stadium is probably holding up things.
Apparently Peyton intends to walk through this thing before he leaves office:
The other 800-pound gorilla is the new County Courthouse. Where does that project stand today?
I don’t view it as an 800-pound gorilla. It’s been planned, it will get built and I will walk through it before I leave office. There is more opportunity now than ever and the economy is such we need to take advantage of the low bids. Some are 20 percent under what they were. We need to get government off the river. It will generate thousands of jobs. The plans have been drafted and we are waiting for a guaranteed maximum price from the contractor. I think we will get that by early spring.
Once construction of the new Courthouse is well underway, will you begin to do anything about the current Courthouse?
I think the next mayor will have to wrestle with how that land is used. We will not vacate that building before it (the new one) is done. We will not be out of the Courthouse Annex or the old Courthouse before I leave office. Walking through it (the new one) before I leave is a stretch.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=51584
So apparently, he intends to walk down the hall of an unfinished building.
I like this part...
QuoteWe need to get government off the river.
Peyton could do a walk through today. Pretty easy without walls.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8202-dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_28.jpg)
Is there a chance this will be completed by the time he leaves office? He sure is cutting it close.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 08, 2009, 03:34:23 PM
I like this part... QuoteWe need to get government off the river.
Could we start with the School Board, then the Jail?
Although the court house is priority, I agree that the jail has to be moved. If that side of downtown is to become an entertainment district with luxury residential then that has to be a addressed.
Just imagine now walking out on to the balcony of your condo to view the river while listening to the sounds of prisoners in their recreational/exercise area. :-( Now that is something you can only get in Jacksonville.
And we might as well start now since it would take 10 years for it to be done anyway.
Move the school board ASAP... and get on with the giant empty space that was the power plant. Oh the things we could do there!!
It would be good to get the School Board building property back on the tax rolls and they could probably find reasonable space to lease downtown these days. But even though I live pretty close to the jail, moving it would have to be a financial gain or at least a wash for the city before I could support that.
Quote from: jtwestside on January 08, 2009, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 08, 2009, 03:34:23 PM
I like this part... QuoteWe need to get government off the river.
Could we start with the School Board, then the Jail?
Could we please just start and stop talking while doing nothing.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on January 10, 2009, 08:39:26 PM
It would be good to get the School Board building property back on the tax rolls and they could probably find reasonable space to lease downtown these days. But even though I live pretty close to the jail, moving it would have to be a financial gain or at least a wash for the city before I could support that.
Have the Schoolboard reacquire the Annie Lytle School , fix it up..even add on to the back of it if need be. I mean all they need is office space. :)
Quote from: Timkin on April 06, 2011, 04:41:25 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on January 10, 2009, 08:39:26 PM
It would be good to get the School Board building property back on the tax rolls and they could probably find reasonable space to lease downtown these days. But even though I live pretty close to the jail, moving it would have to be a financial gain or at least a wash for the city before I could support that.
Have the Schoolboard reacquire the Annie Lytle School , fix it up..even add on to the back of it if need be. I mean all they need is office space. :)
Wouldn't that be much more expensive than leasing available office space?
?
I fixed it.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on April 09, 2011, 01:49:42 PM
Quote from: Timkin on April 06, 2011, 04:41:25 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on January 10, 2009, 08:39:26 PM
It would be good to get the School Board building property back on the tax rolls and they could probably find reasonable space to lease downtown these days. But even though I live pretty close to the jail, moving it would have to be a financial gain or at least a wash for the city before I could support that.
Have the Schoolboard reacquire the Annie Lytle School , fix it up..even add on to the back of it if need be. I mean all they need is office space. :)
Wouldn't that be much more expensive than leasing available office space?
I would think over the long haul, no. but I could be wrong.. It would be a good reuse for the property .
Does Ronnie Belton have a clue when it comes to how to deal with a chief judge or is he naturally obtuse? Having worked with Judge Moran, he towers above you and he can get pretty gruff and in your face, was Ronnie scare to tell the Chief Judge he could not get his way, or did he just have the mayor do it?