I got this email hack peice this morning from campaign@lennycurryformayor.com.
In the event, something like this did happen, who would become the mayor? Whoever is the council president in 2016?
QuoteDEMOCRAT ALVIN BROWN DREAMING
OF HIS NEXT CLINTON DC JOB?
Democrat Alvin Brown, a liberal appointee to Bill Clinton's White House, might think he's one step closer to his next job with yesterday's announcement from Hillary Clinton of her run for President.
Last November, the Times-Union reported that a top Clinton advisor, James Carville, had come to Jacksonville to let us know that "I wouldn't be surprised if he [Brown] would be a top choice for a senior Cabinet seat."
The report also described both Carville and Brown's history with the Clintons:
"Carville was one of President Clinton's top strategists in his campaign for president. In the 1990s, Brown served as an aide to Clinton, Vice President Al Gore and Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown."
"'They [the Clintons] think the world of him,' Carville said about Brown."
Of course this is not the only connection Alvin Brown has to liberal Democrats in Florida and Washington DC. In 2012, Brown was a delegate to the DNC Convention where he cast a vote and endorsed President Obama's reelection.
In 2008, Alvin Brown gave the maximum contribution to fellow Democrat Alex Sink as she faced Governor Rick Scott. And, just a few months ago, Alvin Brown refused to answer if he voted for fellow Democrat Charlie Crist in the 2014 election.
Greg Anderson is expected to become President of the Council. He is Vice right now.
Yes. In Jacksonville there is no Deputy Mayor, so it would be Council President, Council Vice President, Chair of the Rules Committee, Chair of the Finance Committee, and then if after that they still can't fill it (would be pretty extraordinary), the Council "picks" a Mayor by vote.
BTW, that would make the current succession after Alvin Brown be Clay Yarborough, Greg Anderson, Bill Gulliford, and Richard Clark.
Would the replacement finish the term or would there be a special election at some point?
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 13, 2015, 10:43:15 AM
Would the replacement finish the term or would there be a special election at some point?
Special election
Kind of lame, but the question is worth asking considering that Hillary is thought to be a top contender for President, and Brown has been spoken of as a potential cabinet pick if she won. If it went down, we be looking at whoever is council president when she called him up. It would be whoever succeeds Greg Anderson, who will presumably take over this summer as he's the current vice.
And yes, then there would be a special election to finish out the term, most likely, depending on the timing. The last time we had a mayor step down was in 1978, when Hans Tanzler stepped down to run for governor. Jake Godbold was Council President and was appointed to succeed him; there wasn't a special election as there was only 6 months left of the term.
I'm not sure linking your opponent to a prestigious national position and highlighting that a former President and possible future President "think the world of him" is a sound campaign strategy from Curry's camp. Sure there is a chance he ends up leaving, but he gains a higher level of legitimacy from those links...and its not like this is a McCain/Palin situation, where there is a genuine fear of who the replacement candidate would be.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 10:54:36 AM
Kind of lame, but the question is worth asking
Really?
The same could be said for Lenny Curry. What if Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio was President. Would they look to Republican insiders from Florida to fill slots on their team?
CityLife, agreed.
An amusing approach by the Curry Campaign. Seems like they want the undecided voters to cast for Brown.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 13, 2015, 11:08:47 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 10:54:36 AM
Kind of lame, but the question is worth asking
Really?
The same could be said for Lenny Curry. What if Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio was President. Would they look to Republican insiders from Florida to fill slots on their team?
Yes, really. Curry hasn't been mentioned along those lines, while Alvin has. Additionally, Curry would still be a first year mayor. Alvin would be a second term mayor who'd won two elections. He'd be a prime pick for Hillary, assuming she hasn't payed any attention to how he's run the city.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
... assuming she hasn't payed any attention to how he's run the city.
Since when has actual substance meant anything in politiks?
The national economy as a whole is better than it was when he took office, ergo Alvin Brown single-handedly fixed the stale economy in Jacksonville through his leadership.
Same could be said if MAB decided to run for Governor In 2018.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 13, 2015, 12:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
... assuming she hasn't payed any attention to how he's run the city.
Since when has actual substance meant anything in politiks?
The national economy as a whole is better than it was when he took office, ergo Alvin Brown single-handedly fixed the stale economy in Jacksonville through his leadership.
Plus he's done an awesome job single-handedly inventing the Jazz Festival and One Spark.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2015, 12:47:52 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 12:40:04 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 13, 2015, 12:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
... assuming she hasn't payed any attention to how he's run the city.
Since when has actual substance meant anything in politiks?
The national economy as a whole is better than it was when he took office, ergo Alvin Brown single-handedly fixed the stale economy in Jacksonville through his leadership.
Plus he's done an awesome job single-handedly inventing the Jazz Festival and One Spark.
I wonder why there were no One Spark Festival thingys during the previous 35 years?
Hahahahahaha.... Using that logic, Mayor Alvin Brown Presents: The Jacksonville Armada FC
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2015, 12:47:52 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 12:40:04 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 13, 2015, 12:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
... assuming she hasn't payed any attention to how he's run the city.
Since when has actual substance meant anything in politiks?
The national economy as a whole is better than it was when he took office, ergo Alvin Brown single-handedly fixed the stale economy in Jacksonville through his leadership.
Plus he's done an awesome job single-handedly inventing the Jazz Festival and One Spark.
I wonder why there were no One Spark Festival thingys during the previous 35 years?
Because a guy named Peter Rummel never offered $1mm to a few scrappy, young entrepenuers to put one on. There have been privately-financed festivals (both large and small) that have gone on in Jacksonville before both you and I were born.
If Mayor Brown invented One Spark, as you so laughably claim, then why are its financiers/board members (people like Rummel, Munz, etc) voting for the other guy?
Quoteand even then Epoch was not considered possible without the serious relaxation of the overturfing of downtown between various government agencies.
Wrong again. Two words: Super Bowl. That was the framework for the regulatory unfurling you are claiming Alvin Brown magically unlocked. That was the same structure Jazz Festival operated within when Peyton's administration so boldly and masterfully moved ito the core of the city... something the Brown administration just undid when they moved most of the festival's footprint to the Shipyards (and dozens of small businesses in downtown suffered from financially as a result).
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2015, 01:41:25 PM
And speaking of which, the 2005 Super Bowl was pretty terrible for downtown. It was contained (mostly through government planning and the active interference of politically connected individuals) along Bay Street, with mounted guards keeping the crowd from venturing outside of the approved vendor zone.
Lots of urban core restaurants and nightspots went out of business over preparing for the event, only to find out that the promised crowds were paying street vendors set up on the street and in temporary spaces along the approved route instead.
You mean like what happened when the city moved the Mayor Alvin Brown Jazz Festival to the Shipyards after it had been successful in the core of Downtown?
Quote from: fieldafm on April 13, 2015, 01:32:44 PM
Wrong again. Two words: Super Bowl. That was the framework for the regulatory unfurling you are claiming Alvin Brown magically unlocked.
You're not talking about that major even that called for and passed a relaxed stance on the open container laws in the core as well as a somewhat easier permitting process for street vendors, including alcohol sales?
We can't be thinking of the same event. The Super Bowl was way before every endeavor in the city became a Public Private Partnership and sure as hell before every restaurant not on wheels all of a sudden became a Brick and Mortar...
QuoteBut lets face it, during the three years that it was directly in the urban core, most of the economic activity went to the food trucks
Wrong again. Food trucks didnt participate in Jazz Fest until last year. When the Jazz Fest was moved into the core of downtown, there were less than ten mobile food vendors (none were food trucks) used throughout the weekend. The VASTLY overwhelming majority of the economic benefits went towards brick and mortar businesses. Why don't you, like I did (much to the consternation of the Brown administration who absolutely hated me for publicizing it), actually talk to the restaurants and retailers downtown that had their sales plummet in May when the Jazz Fest was moved to the Shipyards?
Unfortunatley, you are talking out of your backside, and I'm going to call you out on it. Just like I called out the Brown administration for moving Jazz Fest out of the core of downtown leaving a wake of empty restaurants, art galleries and retailers in their path.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2015, 02:00:28 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on April 13, 2015, 01:55:59 PM
QuoteBut lets face it, during the three years that it was directly in the urban core, most of the economic activity went to the food trucks
Wrong again. Food trucks didnt participate in Jazz Fest until last year. When the Jazz Fest was moved into the core of downtown, there were less than ten mobile food vendors (none were food trucks) used throughout the weekend. The VASTLY overwhelming majority of the economic benefits went towards brick and mortar businesses. Why don't you, like I did (much to the consternation of the Brown administration who absolutely hated me for publicizing it), actually talk to the restaurants and retailers downtown that had their sales plummet in May when the Jazz Fest was moved to the Shipyards?
interestingly, I was in on the planning of the last of the Jazz Festivals downtown with Theresa Price O'Donnel, field. We were working on establishing a Jazz educators and publishing professionals convention to run simultaneously with the Jazz Festival itself.
Strange how you weren't involved in that process at all, yet know more about it.
Will do a conference call with you and Theresa whenever you like. You are wrong. Period.
And its 'O'Donnell-Price'.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2015, 02:07:39 PM
interestingly, I was in on the planning of the last of the Jazz Festivals downtown with Theresa Price O'Donnel, field. We were working on establishing a Jazz educators and publishing professionals convention to run simultaneously with the Jazz Festival itself.
It's
Theresa O'Donnell Price, for one. And the Jazz Festival was really something when she was in charge of it. But then, our supremely wise and effective mayor replaced her and most everyone in the administration who had any clue what they were doing.
Here's how the Jazz Festival has gone since then, from a widely respected source:
Quote from: stephendare on May 29, 2013, 10:08:03 AM
It was a little terrible compared to previous years actually.
Without Theresa Price and her crew working on the logistics and the media with a decade of experience behind them, things just didnt get done in a timely manner.
Almost no one in the media was able to get the details or communication that they needed in order to get the word out, and they decided to skimp this year on their paid advertisements so they didnt really have a clear communication to the public. Lots of people simply didnt know that the festival was happening until the day of and they saw it on the news.
My sister and her family at the beaches were the first in their entire group of friends to find out that it was Jazz Festival weekend and they realized it on saturday.
And the VIP section at the Main Stage was ridiculous. Almost completely empty half the time but at least it forced people to sit more than a block away.
Quote from: stephendare on February 12, 2014, 10:55:02 AM
Last years jazz festival was a little nightmarish logistically.
They stonewalled Theresa Price, who actually knew how everything worked and volunteered to help out.
They fired everyone involved with the previous years events, and lost Tiffany Valla Hutto, who spent hella time developing the talent for the event, and then they simply ignored all of her offers to help out.
While most people on the forums might not have noticed, it was a hot mess. For example, in order to get into the patrons VIP sections, they created these vast cordoned off areas on Main Street, into which there were two entrances with a guard.
But it simply didnt occur to the new team that walking pathways would have to be maintained around the area so that people could get in and out. It didn't even occur to them that the entrances themselves shouldnt be completely blocked with 25 rows of people sitting on blankets and chairs in front of them and that someone should make sure that there was actual access.. You know,....for the people who paid good money for the patrons area.
It was seriously boneheaded. There was the gating to prevent people getting in, and then five feet inside the gating there was a door guard checking for passes. That door guard wasnt instructed to tell people to keep the entrance open, and there wasnt the usual crew driving a golf caddy just around the perimeter to keep the walkway from turning into seating.
We actually had to go and find the organizers and inform them that the VIP area had become completely closed off.
We were met with blank stares, but one of the off duty cops working the event met us outside, we showed him the problem and then he went over and started fixing it.
There are a lot of moving parts that require thinking the event through, and the team simply did not feel like asking anyone with any experience on how best to do it.
So, I am not at all surprised that they are relocating it to an easily controlled open field where they have very little logistical planning to do.
Quote from: stephendare on May 24, 2014, 09:49:08 AM
...
We weren't really kept in the loop this year about the Jazz Festival. We got no updates, no schedules, no press releases, no nothing really. Most of the other media had to really work to get information from the Special Events office, so we didn't have much to work with.
Im going to go by there later, I suppose, and we are running a story from EU today about the highlights of the schedule. Maybe it will be better tonight, the Friday night of the festival is usually slow.
Quote from: stephendare on May 24, 2014, 12:21:41 PM
Really. What was the office of Special Events thinking? Theresa Price ran that place like a tight ship, and now......this.
How hard is it to send an email to the various news groups? Especially the ones that have covered and supported the festive for years. It seems like there are just a bunch of amateurs running Special Events these days.
Totally bizarre.
To get back to the topic of the thread, this is the process for what to do in a vacancy for mayor:
Quote
If the mayor should die, resign, or remove his residence from Duval County during his term of office, or be removed from office, the office of mayor shall become vacant. A vacancy in the office of mayor shall be filled in the following manner:
(a) An incumbent mayor who resigns in order to seek a state or federal office in the general statewide election held in November immediately preceding the last year of his term, shall submit his resignation at least 10 days prior to the first day of the qualifying period for the office to which he seeks election and his resignation shall be effective no later than the date on which the general statewide election is held. A vacancy in the office of mayor shall exist as of the effective date of the resignation. In the event a mayor's resignation should be effective before the date of the general statewide election, then the vacancy in the office of mayor shall be temporarily filled in the following succession. The president of council, the vice president of council, the chairman of the council committee on rules, and the chairman of the council committee on finance are established as successors to the office of mayor for the purpose of filling a vacancy in the office. In the event a vacancy should occur, the president of council shall serve as mayor until a successor mayor is qualified and elected, and, if there is no president of council, then the vice president shall so serve. If there is no vice president, then the chairman of the council committee on rules shall serve, and, if there is no chairman of the council committee on rules, then the chairman of the council committee on finance shall serve. If none of these successors can serve as acting mayor, the council shall by ordinance designate an acting mayor until the office of mayor shall be filled as provided herein. If any elected official in the line of succession should refuse to serve as acting mayor or if any such official who is serving as acting mayor should qualify to run for the office of mayor, then he shall no longer serve as acting mayor and the official next in line of succession shall assume the duties of acting mayor. A candidate seeking election to fill the vacancy created by this resignation of an incumbent mayor seeking other elected office shall qualify to run in a special mayoral election to be held as part of and at the same time as the general statewide election. The time period during which such candidates may qualify to run in this special mayoral election shall commence at the same time as does the qualifying period for candidates seeking office in the general statewide election and shall terminate on noon of the seventh day following the date on which the qualifying period for the general statewide election ends. A mayor elected to fill an unexpired term shall take office and assume and exercise all duties of office immediately as of the date of certification of the election returns by the supervisor of elections as provided by law.
(b) In the event that a vacancy in the office of mayor occurs other than as provided in subsection (a), then such a vacancy shall be filled for the remainder of the unexpired term by election of a mayor at a special election to be called pursuant to resolution of the city council and held on a date no sooner than 1 month and no later than 6 months after the vacancy occurs. This special election shall, if possible, be held in conjunction with any other election scheduled to be held within the county. A resignation by the mayor shall be submitted to the supervisor of elections (with a copy to the secretary of the city council), shall specify the date on which it is effective, and shall be irrevocable. If a mayor submits a resignation which is effective at a date later than that on which it is submitted, the city council may, by resolution, call a special election for the election of a successor, this special election to be held on a date not less than 1 month after the date the resignation is submitted nor more than 6 months prior to the date the resignation is effective; and such special election shall, if possible, be held in conjunction with any other election scheduled to be held within the county. A vacancy in the office of mayor occurring as contemplated in this subsection shall be temporarily filled in the same manner established in subsection (a). The acting mayor shall exercise all the powers of the office of mayor until a successor mayor is qualified, elected, and assumes office. If an acting mayor should qualify to run for the office of mayor at this special election, then he shall no longer serve as acting mayor and the official next in line of succession shall assume the duties of acting mayor. Should a special mayoral election not be held at the same time as any other election scheduled to be held within the county, then the special primary election for nominations of candidates of political parties for the office of mayor to be voted upon in the special election shall be held at the times specified by the council in the resolution calling the special mayoral election, provided that at least 2 weeks shall intervene between the dates set for the first and second primary elections and at least 2 weeks shall intervene between the second special primary election and the special mayoral election. The time period during which candidates may qualify to run in the special primary elections and special mayoral elections shall be specified by the council in the resolution calling the special election, provided that at least 7 calendar days shall be fixed for the qualifying period and that the last date on which candidates may qualify shall occur not less than 3 weeks before the date of the first special primary election.
(Laws of Fla., Ch. 77-576; Ord. 84-1307-754, § 4; Laws of Fla., Ch. 85-433, § 1; Laws of Fla., Ch. 92-341, § 1)
http://jacksonville.eregulations.us/code/coor_apxid175752_ptA_art6_sec6.06
^^I never saw where Field alluded to the SuperBowl being an annual event in dt Jax. He simply alluded that it led to some of the changes making it easier for events. You kind of made that part up?
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2015, 03:25:36 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 02:52:43 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2015, 02:07:39 PM
interestingly, I was in on the planning of the last of the Jazz Festivals downtown with Theresa Price O'Donnel, field. We were working on establishing a Jazz educators and publishing professionals convention to run simultaneously with the Jazz Festival itself.
It's Theresa O'Donnell Price, for one. And the Jazz Festival was really something when she was in charge of it. But then, our supremely wise and effective mayor replaced her and most everyone in the administration who had any clue what they were doing.
Here's how the Jazz Festival has gone since then, from a widely respected source:
Quote from: stephendare on May 29, 2013, 10:08:03 AM
It was a little terrible compared to previous years actually.
Without Theresa Price and her crew working on the logistics and the media with a decade of experience behind them, things just didnt get done in a timely manner.
Almost no one in the media was able to get the details or communication that they needed in order to get the word out, and they decided to skimp this year on their paid advertisements so they didnt really have a clear communication to the public. Lots of people simply didnt know that the festival was happening until the day of and they saw it on the news.
My sister and her family at the beaches were the first in their entire group of friends to find out that it was Jazz Festival weekend and they realized it on saturday.
And the VIP section at the Main Stage was ridiculous. Almost completely empty half the time but at least it forced people to sit more than a block away.
Quote from: stephendare on February 12, 2014, 10:55:02 AM
Last years jazz festival was a little nightmarish logistically.
They stonewalled Theresa Price, who actually knew how everything worked and volunteered to help out.
They fired everyone involved with the previous years events, and lost Tiffany Valla Hutto, who spent hella time developing the talent for the event, and then they simply ignored all of her offers to help out.
While most people on the forums might not have noticed, it was a hot mess. For example, in order to get into the patrons VIP sections, they created these vast cordoned off areas on Main Street, into which there were two entrances with a guard.
But it simply didnt occur to the new team that walking pathways would have to be maintained around the area so that people could get in and out. It didn't even occur to them that the entrances themselves shouldnt be completely blocked with 25 rows of people sitting on blankets and chairs in front of them and that someone should make sure that there was actual access.. You know,....for the people who paid good money for the patrons area.
It was seriously boneheaded. There was the gating to prevent people getting in, and then five feet inside the gating there was a door guard checking for passes. That door guard wasnt instructed to tell people to keep the entrance open, and there wasnt the usual crew driving a golf caddy just around the perimeter to keep the walkway from turning into seating.
We actually had to go and find the organizers and inform them that the VIP area had become completely closed off.
We were met with blank stares, but one of the off duty cops working the event met us outside, we showed him the problem and then he went over and started fixing it.
There are a lot of moving parts that require thinking the event through, and the team simply did not feel like asking anyone with any experience on how best to do it.
So, I am not at all surprised that they are relocating it to an easily controlled open field where they have very little logistical planning to do.
Quote from: stephendare on May 24, 2014, 09:49:08 AM
...
We weren't really kept in the loop this year about the Jazz Festival. We got no updates, no schedules, no press releases, no nothing really. Most of the other media had to really work to get information from the Special Events office, so we didn't have much to work with.
Im going to go by there later, I suppose, and we are running a story from EU today about the highlights of the schedule. Maybe it will be better tonight, the Friday night of the festival is usually slow.
Quote from: stephendare on May 24, 2014, 12:21:41 PM
Really. What was the office of Special Events thinking? Theresa Price ran that place like a tight ship, and now......this.
How hard is it to send an email to the various news groups? Especially the ones that have covered and supported the festive for years. It seems like there are just a bunch of amateurs running Special Events these days.
Totally bizarre.
yup. Your original point was that the ill effects of moving the jazz festival on downtown were as bad as the ill effects of the Superbowl.
If you remember, you made the point because Field brought up the Super Bowl as one of our many fine annual events here in jacksonville. (which it isn't. I believe that the Superbowl goes from city to city, and that so far they have been to at least 9 other cities since they were in Jacksonville last.
I pointed out to you that the jazz festival at least has the after hours series, (which is actually hosted in local nightclubs) and then Mike posted a few posts along the lines of 'Mayor Brown invented the Jazz Festival. He didn't. I talked to actual merchants! So there!"
Im a bit dyslexic, so I often get the order of names incorrectly. Especially if they are different from the original name that I associate with a person (marriage and divorces usually) thanks for the correction.
Which is about as baffling as any of the nonsense that Ive ever read on the forums.
Actually, my original point was that it's worth considering the fact that Brown may get called up to a cabinet position under Clinton if they both win. One of my later points was that Brown likes to take credit for things that are the result of other peoples' efforts, even when his administration's contributions actually make things worse. Like the Jazz Festival, which was a well run event until his office cut the budget, mismanaged the planning, and moved it away from everything down to the Shipyards.
This is my actual first comment here:
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 10:54:36 AM
Kind of lame, but the question is worth asking considering that Hillary is thought to be a top contender for President, and Brown has been spoken of as a potential cabinet pick if she won. If it went down, we be looking at whoever is council president when she called him up. It would be whoever succeeds Greg Anderson, who will presumably take over this summer as he's the current vice.
And yes, then there would be a special election to finish out the term, most likely, depending on the timing. The last time we had a mayor step down was in 1978, when Hans Tanzler stepped down to run for governor. Jake Godbold was Council President and was appointed to succeed him; there wasn't a special election as there was only 6 months left of the term.
I don't have a time machine, so I have no clue if Clinton will win. But she is considered a strong contender and if she did win, yes, Brown has been talked about as a potential cabinet pick.
I stand by my statement (and yours) that the Jazz Festival was in far better shape before Brown got his hands on it. It's not the only example of that, either.
Just catching up on this thread. If a sitting mayor steps down or is taken out office in Jacksonville, the Council President would take his place and that person would not be able to run for mayor. There would be a special election held to replace the mayor. After the election they return of their council positions. :) I don't see Alvin stepping down if elected to run for Governor. As far as a cabinet position, if elected Hillary would be in office after Browns next four years and could still place him in a favored position. Right now the Dems are bankrolling him big time to keep him as Mayor prior to the 2016 race for the White House.
Quote from: Steve on April 13, 2015, 10:13:33 AM
Yes. In Jacksonville there is no Deputy Mayor, so it would be Council President, Council Vice President, Chair of the Rules Committee, Chair of the Finance Committee, and then if after that they still can't fill it (would be pretty extraordinary), the Council "picks" a Mayor by vote.
BTW, that would make the current succession after Alvin Brown be Clay Yarborough, Greg Anderson, Bill Gulliford, and Richard Clark.
Thankfully neither Clay Yarborough or Richard Clark will be here after June. New councilmembers step into office the beginning of July 2015
Just a quick thought on the downspin the Jazz Festival has taken over the past few years....
During Peyton's second term, the event grew substantially...both in scope and cost.
Given the budget problems the past few years and Mayor Brown's displeasure for tax increases, the ever increasing costs were not sustainable.
Add to that this new festival called One Spark and the substantial money the City has allocated to it.
So, look at the timetable....the Jazz Festival declined slightly in 2012 (when Theresa Price was replaced), but majorly in 2013 and 2014...at the same time as a major new festival got started.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 13, 2015, 09:19:02 PM
Just a quick thought on the downspin the Jazz Festival has taken over the past few years....
During Peyton's second term, the event grew substantially...both in scope and cost.
Given the budget problems the past few years and Mayor Brown's displeasure for tax increases, the ever increasing costs were not sustainable.
Add to that this new festival called One Spark and the substantial money the City has allocated to it.
So, look at the timetable....the Jazz Festival declined slightly in 2012 (when Theresa Price was replaced), but majorly in 2013 and 2014...at the same time as a major new festival got started.
Thanks for dutifully reporting the position of the Alvin Brown for Mayor campaign, but the Jazz Festival's decline under Brown is plain to see, as is his attempt to hitch his wagon to One Spark despite his office having little to do with its success. Almost all the budget came from private investors (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-02-12/story/investors-have-35-million-offer-one-spark-creators-jacksonville-year), and the city's handling of the traffic, transit and infrastructure has been... underwhelming (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,24079.msg408695/topicseen.html#new).
Quote from: stephendare on April 14, 2015, 12:02:42 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 13, 2015, 10:20:04 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 13, 2015, 09:19:02 PM
Just a quick thought on the downspin the Jazz Festival has taken over the past few years....
During Peyton's second term, the event grew substantially...both in scope and cost.
Given the budget problems the past few years and Mayor Brown's displeasure for tax increases, the ever increasing costs were not sustainable.
Add to that this new festival called One Spark and the substantial money the City has allocated to it.
So, look at the timetable....the Jazz Festival declined slightly in 2012 (when Theresa Price was replaced), but majorly in 2013 and 2014...at the same time as a major new festival got started.
Thanks for dutifully reporting the position of the Alvin Brown for Mayor campaign, but the Jazz Festival's decline under Brown is plain to see, as is his attempt to hitch his wagon to One Spark despite his office having little to do with its success. Almost all the budget came from private investors (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-02-12/story/investors-have-35-million-offer-one-spark-creators-jacksonville-year), and the city's handling of the traffic, transit and infrastructure has been... underwhelming (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,24079.msg408695/topicseen.html#new).
and thank you for dutifully injecting Lenny Curry's rhetoric into the conversation as well. So many gifts.
It ain't rhetoric if it's true. Not *just* rhetoric, anyway.
Lenny Curry
Well,Ive read every thread about the mayors race,and I must say,I still have no idea what to do ! I loathe Brown,but Curry makes me equally nauseous ! What in the hell am I going to do ?!?
Quote from: johncb on April 18, 2015, 11:10:58 PM
Well,Ive read every thread about the mayors race,and I must say,I still have no idea what to do ! I loathe Brown,but Curry makes me equally nauseous ! What in the hell am I going to do ?!?
I sincerely wish i could help you with your contrary, but don't know where to start. Curry and Mayor Brown are so different in some very important way, while being the same in other important issues. To understand who represents you best takes a little study of both candidates. I voted for Bishop in primary, so was in your position for awhile. I decided Mayor Alvin Brown was my (second) choice because he will be so much less a liability than Curry. A quick "cliff notes' of Curry shows an irresponsible newcomer as mayor who is indebted to the State Republican party. Lenny Curry has no previous experience except being a "R" party leader. He was the one who pushed 'R' candidates no matter how they looked or represent. He has no duty or responsibility to people of the city, only to Republican party. If you want a strict Republican party guy, who relies on State officials to tell him what to do, Vote Curry. If you have any hope, faith, and desire for jacksonville to move forward and stop the status quo; vote Brown. he will be around for 4 more years, with NO major damage, unlike Curry who could take us in deep dive off the cliff. MY OPINION only.
The ideal is the goal. If it is clearly apparent, destroy the candidate most likely to be, if elected, the greatest disaster for the city. The ideal also includes a mayoral election scenario wherein the two candidates having the greatest potential to be great mayors can debate over many weeks, so as to clarify, illuminate, and raise the quality of engaging the important issues of our city.
But nooooooo ..... :) ... instead of choosing to have a runoff between Brown and Bishop -- the two candidates who've debated issues with reasonable substance, and who have the greatest potentials to be the best next mayor -- the voters have chosen to have a runoff between Brown and an obvious mediocrity who failed to convince anyone that he can think with substance about any issues set before him.
I suspect that not enough voters saw the two debates. Otherwise, surely Curry would not have received more than twice the votes as Bishop.
This is scary. Voter ignorance and the tendency to vote one's party in spite of any clown bought to run the race, might allow this mediocre pawn of the GOP machine to actually win the final vote.
The voters ruined a chance to have debates between two competent candidates ... Brown and Bishop ... thereby improving the entire mayoral selection scenario ... and instead have chosen to endure the shallow and ultimately meaningless campaign ads -- more wasteful lies, distortions, and absurdities, meant to avoid seriously engaging the important issues before our city.
The voters have chosen to place the city in the predicament wherein it is actually possible to have Curry as mayor. Now ... please .. be honest .... look at the debates if you haven't done so .. or view them again. Wouldn't Curry as mayor be an embarrassment for our city?
Surely our city can do better than to have as mayor a man who, as far as I can determine, has failed to think with any depth on any issue set before him. Any assistant, with good writing skills, can write a program or platform for a candidate's web site. The debates are where the truth of a candidate's qualities emerges for all to see. And really, the TV and radio ads are all bullshit, lies, and hogwash .. and you all know it.
The ideal goal in elections having several candidates is not necessarily to have a win on the first run but, in the interest of raising the bar via debates and constructive discourse on important issues, to have a runoff between the two best candidates .. the only two having the qualities offering the highest potential to be the best mayor.
The voters have failed to achieve the ideal in this mayoral season.
Shame on all who voted for Curry ... and to some degree .. shame on all who voted for Brown and not for Bishop -- because you ruined the path to the ideal. Seems sorta like a chess game. You massage the field so as to achieve a win, but the path is not necessarily direct and straight. Voters should have destroyed Curry in the first round, but NOT given either Brown or Bishop a win, thereby giving the whole process the positive energy and gain which only debates and good sense can produce over time.
What is the ideal? Certainly not what we are about to engage in this mayoral season.
It would be so easy to agree with all that believe the "devil you know" is the way to go. But some have had a look behind the magic curtain and I for one shudder at another four years of the same people in appointed positions that caused the Federal government to announce to the world that Jacksonville "lacks the capacity" to handle the millions of Federal funds it gets. I question who is truly pulling the strings and making the decisions.
That makes me wonder if it is not time for change even it if it is for no reason other than achieving change. The Curry machine seems to be on a different wavelength than Brown's and so I suspect that those who actually run the government on a day to day basis will be at least mostly new. Better? I don't know. Worse? Hard to have that scenario even possible for the most part. Yes, there are a few good ones out there and I hope that as their positions are a bit more technical than most, perhaps common sense will prevail. But seeing some like Kimberly Scott sent back to, in her case, the library secretarial pool, might actually be worth having Curry as Mayor.
Heck, Curry may not be too bad as Mayor, after all, it seems that who is behind the man often makes more of a difference than who the man is itself.
"Shame on all who voted for Curry ... and to some degree .. shame on all who voted for Brown and not for Bishop"
I voted for Bishop and am leaning towards Curry because although I like the way Brown shrunk the COJ workforce and held the line on taxes, he has failed to appoint qualified people and work with the council effectively. Curry is an unknown quantity but it is hard for me to imagine him being worse than Brown. If I decide to go with Curry I will not be ashamed of my choice.
I'm supporting Curry because I want the candidate who will be the better manager. Curry's not an ideal candidate and his campaign has made some glaring errors in various areas, but I think he'll be the better manager and leader.
I think we have a better chance at getting our budget trainwreck under control with Curry over Brown. I think we have a better chance solving the pension crisis with Curry. I think we also have a much better shot at getting competent people back in charge of the city departments and repairing a working relationship with the City Council under Curry. And I think we have a better chance at getting the HRO passed with Curry in the mayor's office rather than Brown.
SHAME on anyone who voted? Geez. Shame on those who didn't.
I can't believe that all those voters voted against my wishes ... against the ideal of narrowing the field down to two candidates who can at least behave with a reasonable show of competence in debates. I'm depressed. :(
There is one big plus in voting for Brown. He's term limited to one more term, Curry is not.
Quote from: stephendare on April 19, 2015, 02:44:34 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 19, 2015, 12:45:41 PM
I'm supporting Curry because I want the candidate who will be the better manager. Curry's not an ideal candidate and his campaign has made some glaring errors in various areas, but I think he'll be the better manager and leader.
I think we have a better chance at getting our budget trainwreck under control with Curry over Brown. I think we have a better chance solving the pension crisis with Curry. I think we also have a much better shot at getting competent people back in charge of the city departments and repairing a working relationship with the City Council under Curry. And I think we have a better chance at getting the HRO passed with Curry in the mayor's office rather than Brown.
I think that it passes whoever is mayor because of the new council, which is the body that passes it anyways.
Im curious as to why you think Curry would be a better manager? Other than an accounting firm (where he could fire people) what other experience does he have, really? When you come right down to it?
He doesn't seem to have had much luck running the Republican Party. Sure, he got an extremist fraudster elected governor, but at the cost of losing both Tampa and Jville to Democratic mayors as a result of the anti extremism backlash. Doesn't seem like very wise use of resources.
For one thing, the bar's pretty low - it would be pretty tough to be a weaker manager than we've got. But Curry does have management experience - running a business for 10 years and heading a statewide and countywide party. Brown hasn't led anything, either before or since he was elected Mayor.
But I agree that we have a good shot of getting the HRO passed whoever wins as mayor. But it's not a given, depending on the council elections (we need to get Anna Brosche in and Kim Daniels out). If Alvin wins, we can count on him pulling the same backroom shenanigans he did last time to keep it off his desk, which will weaken the chances the bill passes for the four years we'd be stuck with him. Curry will be less anti-HRO, and he may just come out in support.
This thread is better than the people watching at a Florida Georgia game. Don't stop!
Quote from: stephendare on April 19, 2015, 11:04:01 AM
Quote from: strider on April 19, 2015, 09:12:30 AM
It would be so easy to agree with all that believe the "devil you know" is the way to go. But some have had a look behind the magic curtain and I for one shudder at another four years of the same people in appointed positions that caused the Federal government to announce to the world that Jacksonville "lacks the capacity" to handle the millions of Federal funds it gets. I question who is truly pulling the strings and making the decisions.
That makes me wonder if it is not time for change even it if it is for no reason other than achieving change. The Curry machine seems to be on a different wavelength than Brown's and so I suspect that those who actually run the government on a day to day basis will be at least mostly new. Better? I don't know. Worse? Hard to have that scenario even possible for the most part. Yes, there are a few good ones out there and I hope that as their positions are a bit more technical than most, perhaps common sense will prevail. But seeing some like Kimberly Scott sent back to, in her case, the library secretarial pool, might actually be worth having Curry as Mayor.
Heck, Curry may not be too bad as Mayor, after all, it seems that who is behind the man often makes more of a difference than who the man is itself.
Godwins Law. Im sure that people felt the same way about Hindenburg.
Who exactly will Curry appoint, strider? And what are his plans for the historic neighborhoods? If you don't think that Curry would appoint the like of Jack Meeks (and remember there are far worse) and that the developers would be calling the shots then I would suspect that myopia competes with your bitterness in a race a giant Ocean of Naivety.
I don't know who Curry would appoint. I do know that Brown already did appoint Jack Meeks. And got Kim Scott promoted. And got rid of Bill Killingsworth. And appointed Burney. And then he also...the list goes on. Mayor Brown's appointments have not always been exactly top notch. And I do know Mayor Brown's plan for historic neighborhoods and it isn't too good.
As far as the developers, it is you who is wallowing around in an "Ocean of Naivety" if you truly think the same issues are not here and now with Mayor Brown. All you have to do is read the threads about him on this very forum.
Godwin's law.....not very original Stephen ... certainly since I don't think it applied for my post in any way - so you are the one evoking it? I am a bit disappointed.
Meanwhile, let's decide to take a chance on change and vote for Lenny Curry. How bad can it be after a few decades of the Corrine Brown troupe?
"Heck, Curry may not be too bad as Mayor. After all, it seems that who is behind the man often makes more of a difference than who man is himself."
The above statement from Strider is perhaps the way its supposed to be these days ... when money in politics ... lots of it, from the right people ... actually determines who is going to be the mayor. This is very sad and troublesome, as the process allows for control, and the governing process, to pass to those in the background ... to those to whom the elected candidate owes favors and allegiance.
This tendency and accepted habit in our elections over recent decades is actually shameful because most citizens accept it. Must things get so bad ... must the city's debt climb another billion or two, before increased poverty, disorder, and fear forces the citizens to pay attention to what counts in elections .. which is certainly not the absurd TV and radio ads, and the election placards placed all over? Debates ... several, are the key to determining who is fit, and who is not.
The habit of accepting the nonsense of media ads and placards, the quantity of which determines, apparently, the outcome of the elections, is making it unlikely that anyone with real abilities in leadership and sound vision will ever succeed in being elected. It seems that media ads and placards are used aggressively by those who shun debates because the debates will allow any viewers to perceive their real nature, including any deficiencies in leadership, vision, and problem solving abilities --- things that one doesn't actually need if they are supported as pawns by one or two moneyed entities such as a Rommel or a Kahn.
Our elections are jokes because of the money trails. Who cares about how much money a candidate has, gathers, or spends? The amount only shows how much money he or she has, or how many favors is owed to the moneyed who gifted the large funds. WTF? What about qualities in thinking about the realities of critical issues? What about that rare thing called leadership ... real leadership ... which emerges from the individual's mind and soul, and not from those who paid for his or her election? I suspect that most citizens don't know what the fuck real leadership is in Jacksonville. It so rare, I suspect most would not recognize it ... such has for so long been the trend of bought pawns in the electoral process.
And we do it again in this election. We have discarded a man with the potential to be a great mayor, and have instead chosen the route of habit; that is, of allowing classic politicians ... mediocrities ... to play the same game of politicking. Even though Bill Bishop is not perfect, he has shown strength in vision, in actually thinking about issues, and in honesty and directness in seeking solutions.
For example ... the city's debt. The other two candidates only talked about "not raising taxes". Bullshit. Get real citizens. Bishop discussed the idea of raising some taxes, in some form, so as to reduce the debt, resolve the pension fund issue, and so as to achieve some objectives in city projects. I pay lots of taxes. But I don't mind paying more taxes "if" the spending is necessary and makes good sense. Many of us know that in order to maintain and improve our city, we citizens must pay by way of reasonable and fair taxes. One purpose of government is to ensure that our tax dollars are utilized responsibly, for the benefit of all the citizens who actually contribute, and not for any special interests who happened to contribute to their political favorite or pawn. We've seen tax money wasted as a consequence of poor and weak government ... perhaps a government partially bought by those who benefited from the wasted money.
Real leadership. We need a hard nosed, hard assed mean sonavabitch as mayor so that all the bullshit can be forced out with drive and decisiveness. Maybe Bishop can practice being so .. so he will be ready for the next mayoral election. I sense that Bishop's tendency to speak forcefully and direct about issues is just practice to become a mean sonavabitchin mayor. ;D
Pardon me Strider and Stephen, but must you two fill the spaces with such trivialities? What happened to substance?
Please stephen. Substance. You can do better.
Quote from: stephendare on April 19, 2015, 08:11:54 PM
Quote from: strider on April 19, 2015, 07:47:59 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 19, 2015, 11:04:01 AM
Quote from: strider on April 19, 2015, 09:12:30 AM
It would be so easy to agree with all that believe the "devil you know" is the way to go. But some have had a look behind the magic curtain and I for one shudder at another four years of the same people in appointed positions that caused the Federal government to announce to the world that Jacksonville "lacks the capacity" to handle the millions of Federal funds it gets. I question who is truly pulling the strings and making the decisions.
That makes me wonder if it is not time for change even it if it is for no reason other than achieving change. The Curry machine seems to be on a different wavelength than Brown's and so I suspect that those who actually run the government on a day to day basis will be at least mostly new. Better? I don't know. Worse? Hard to have that scenario even possible for the most part. Yes, there are a few good ones out there and I hope that as their positions are a bit more technical than most, perhaps common sense will prevail. But seeing some like Kimberly Scott sent back to, in her case, the library secretarial pool, might actually be worth having Curry as Mayor.
Heck, Curry may not be too bad as Mayor, after all, it seems that who is behind the man often makes more of a difference than who the man is itself.
Godwins Law. Im sure that people felt the same way about Hindenburg.
Who exactly will Curry appoint, strider? And what are his plans for the historic neighborhoods? If you don't think that Curry would appoint the like of Jack Meeks (and remember there are far worse) and that the developers would be calling the shots then I would suspect that myopia competes with your bitterness in a race a giant Ocean of Naivety.
I don't know who Curry would appoint. I do know that Brown already did appoint Jack Meeks. And got Kim Scott promoted. And got rid of Bill Killingsworth. And appointed Burney. And then he also...the list goes on. Mayor Brown's appointments have not always been exactly top notch. And I do know Mayor Brown's plan for historic neighborhoods and it isn't too good.
As far as the developers, it is you who is wallowing around in an "Ocean of Naivety" if you truly think the same issues are not here and now with Mayor Brown. All you have to do is read the threads about him on this very forum.
Godwin's law.....not very original Stephen ... certainly since I don't think it applied for my post in any way - so you are the one evoking it? I am a bit disappointed.
Meanwhile, let's decide to take a chance on change and vote for Lenny Curry. How bad can it be after a few decades of the Corrine Brown troupe?
You missed the hindenberg reference, strider? Im the one disappointed in you then.
So, no. You have no clue what Curry's plan is, and no clue who he might appoint. Except that no one can be worse than Jack Meeks? Does that sum up the response?
I don't know who specifically Curry will hire for specific positions, but that's putting the cart before the horse. He's got a good pool to tap, many of whom Brown has already alienated. At any rate, it's hard to imagine a businessman running such a weak staff as Brown. It's hard to imagine an accountant mismanaging the budget this badly. And given those two things, he shouldn't have the problem of so thoroughly alienating the City Council as Brown has.
Quote from: stephendare on April 19, 2015, 08:23:29 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 19, 2015, 03:57:18 PM
But I agree that we have a good shot of getting the HRO passed whoever wins as mayor. But it's not a given, depending on the council elections (we need to get Anna Brosche in and Kim Daniels out). If Alvin wins, we can count on him pulling the same backroom shenanigans he did last time to keep it off his desk, which will weaken the chances the bill passes for the four years we'd be stuck with him. Curry will be less anti-HRO, and he may just come out in support.
I know that the council people who voted against the HRO keep trying to blame the mayor for having forced them to vote that way with his mythical skill of back room shenanigans. Wonder why this same mayor, with his magical strong-arm abilities can't get them to vote for anything else?
He only had to get to one of them, Johnny Gaffney (or possibly two, with Reggie Brown). It's known that before the final vote, Gaffney was strongly supportive of LGBT rights (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-17/story/warren-jones-says-political-pressure-changed-human-rights-vote-suspects). He even voted for the stronger, trans-inclusive version of the bill in committee. Something made him flip to the point that he voted against the amended bill. Additionally, it's known that Gaffney could only give hilariously bumbling answers (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-councilman-after-human-rights-vote-he-was-confused-voted) as to why he pulled a Judas.
It's also known that Mayor Brown was absolutely terrified of the bill hitting his desk because he'd have to make a real decision. Doesn't take much reading between the lines. And yes, we can count on the same behavior from Brown next go-round if he's reelected.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 02:33:47 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 19, 2015, 10:00:44 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 19, 2015, 08:23:29 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 19, 2015, 03:57:18 PM
But I agree that we have a good shot of getting the HRO passed whoever wins as mayor. But it's not a given, depending on the council elections (we need to get Anna Brosche in and Kim Daniels out). If Alvin wins, we can count on him pulling the same backroom shenanigans he did last time to keep it off his desk, which will weaken the chances the bill passes for the four years we'd be stuck with him. Curry will be less anti-HRO, and he may just come out in support.
I know that the council people who voted against the HRO keep trying to blame the mayor for having forced them to vote that way with his mythical skill of back room shenanigans. Wonder why this same mayor, with his magical strong-arm abilities can't get them to vote for anything else?
He only had to get to one of them, Johnny Gaffney (or possibly two, with Reggie Brown). It's known that before the final vote, Gaffney was strongly supportive of LGBT rights (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-17/story/warren-jones-says-political-pressure-changed-human-rights-vote-suspects). He even voted for the stronger, trans-inclusive version of the bill in committee. Something made him flip to the point that he voted against the amended bill. Additionally, it's known that Gaffney could only give hilariously bumbling answers (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-councilman-after-human-rights-vote-he-was-confused-voted) as to why he pulled a Judas.
It's also known that Mayor Brown was absolutely terrified of the bill hitting his desk because he'd have to make a real decision. Doesn't take much reading between the lines. And yes, we can count on the same behavior from Brown next go-round if he's reelected.
Sounds like a stretch to me. Sounds pretty terrifying. An HRO bill supported by 60% of the voters, the entire chamber of commerce and a few former mayors?
Sorry, but Occams Razor here. The most likely truth is that its easy for council people to blame the mayor rather than face up to their unpopular vote.
Gaffney never tried to blame the mayor. He could only give a series of confused (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-councilman-after-human-rights-vote-he-was-confused-voted), contradictory (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-17/story/warren-jones-says-political-pressure-changed-human-rights-vote-suspects) answers as to why he flipped on a bill he previously supported. Someone got to Gaffney, and Alvin, who was terrified of the bill hitting his desk, is the obvious candidate. In fact, he never even denied it; he dodged the media and had DeCamp deny it for him later. Plausible deniability is a cowardly politician's best friend.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 11:26:13 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 20, 2015, 09:15:38 AM
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 02:33:47 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 19, 2015, 10:00:44 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 19, 2015, 08:23:29 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 19, 2015, 03:57:18 PM
But I agree that we have a good shot of getting the HRO passed whoever wins as mayor. But it's not a given, depending on the council elections (we need to get Anna Brosche in and Kim Daniels out). If Alvin wins, we can count on him pulling the same backroom shenanigans he did last time to keep it off his desk, which will weaken the chances the bill passes for the four years we'd be stuck with him. Curry will be less anti-HRO, and he may just come out in support.
I know that the council people who voted against the HRO keep trying to blame the mayor for having forced them to vote that way with his mythical skill of back room shenanigans. Wonder why this same mayor, with his magical strong-arm abilities can't get them to vote for anything else?
He only had to get to one of them, Johnny Gaffney (or possibly two, with Reggie Brown). It's known that before the final vote, Gaffney was strongly supportive of LGBT rights (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-17/story/warren-jones-says-political-pressure-changed-human-rights-vote-suspects). He even voted for the stronger, trans-inclusive version of the bill in committee. Something made him flip to the point that he voted against the amended bill. Additionally, it's known that Gaffney could only give hilariously bumbling answers (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-councilman-after-human-rights-vote-he-was-confused-voted) as to why he pulled a Judas.
It's also known that Mayor Brown was absolutely terrified of the bill hitting his desk because he'd have to make a real decision. Doesn't take much reading between the lines. And yes, we can count on the same behavior from Brown next go-round if he's reelected.
Sounds like a stretch to me. Sounds pretty terrifying. An HRO bill supported by 60% of the voters, the entire chamber of commerce and a few former mayors?
Sorry, but Occams Razor here. The most likely truth is that its easy for council people to blame the mayor rather than face up to their unpopular vote.
Gaffney never tried to blame the mayor. He could only give a series of confused (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-councilman-after-human-rights-vote-he-was-confused-voted), contradictory (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-17/story/warren-jones-says-political-pressure-changed-human-rights-vote-suspects) answers as to why he flipped on a bill he previously supported. Someone got to Gaffney, and Alvin, who was terrified of the bill hitting his desk, is the obvious candidate. In fact, he never even denied it; he dodged the media and had DeCamp deny it for him later. Plausible deniability is a cowardly politician's best friend.
hhm.. sounds like a bunch of made up nonsense. Just think of Alvin.....cowering behind his desk, literally terrified that the Human Rights Ordinance will hit his desk. It so like every other thing in his administration. Terrified of the historic preservationist. Terrified of the political fallout of the Pension issue. Terrified of cutting government services in order to not raise taxes.
Yeah....its like a pattern I guess.
Or not. ;)
Tell it to Warren Jones. He's the one who said all this in public (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-17/story/warren-jones-says-political-pressure-changed-human-rights-vote-suspects). In better times, the local media would have been all over this story, digging deeper and getting answers. Now, our local pols just get a pass.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 11:43:38 AM
He mentioned the suspicion, and was the sponsor of the bill. He hasn't spoken about it since, the version that you are repeating came out of the Bishop for Mayor campaign, the candidate that actually voted against the HRO. A bill that was voted for by only two people on council. Denise Lee and Warren Jones. Both of whom are black democrats.
The version I'm repeating, and have been for three years, came from Warren Jones, and common sense. 2+2=4.
Stephen is right, it would be hard to imagine him cowering behind his desk... because he was likely in front of some camera at the time taking credit for something he probably had nothing to do with.
Stepping outside of Stephen's fantasy land, even the Mayor's supporters in their own words question his leadership.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-26/story/jacksonville-mayor-seen-lacking-leadership-controversial-issues (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-26/story/jacksonville-mayor-seen-lacking-leadership-controversial-issues)
QuoteIt was a common criticism of Mayor Alvin Brown during the recent push to expand Jacksonville's human rights ordinance, coming from both sides: By not taking a stand on the issue, he wasn't acting as a leader.
"In this case, he is the leader of the city. He can provide guidance," said Leanne King, who opposed the ordinance as an infringement upon people's free speech and religious rights. "It certainly would have been nice as a leader for him to stand up."
Audrey Moran, who championed adding sexual orientation to the ordinance, had similar words about Brown.
"This community needs to hear from its mayor on issues of community importance," she said. "We need to convince him how much we need his leadership on this."
It's not the first time that critique has been made of Brown, either explicitly or sotto voce.
Brown was seen by many as dragging his feet on the establishment of an independent ethics commission early this year and several City Council members said he absented himself from working with them as his downtown development legislation went through the process. He sent mixed messages when asked about a toll-financed outer beltway, saying he was for the road but against tolls.
On the other hand, Brown has put himself in the public spotlight as a cheerleader for downtown, shown most strongly Friday as he welcomed a report by consultants on ways to move forward with revitalizing the area.
After campaigning on an education-focused platform, he moved quickly to appoint an education commissioner — defying council to do so — and worked with the United Way on creating an expanded mentorship program.
Exactly how successful the mayor has been as a leader is a broad, somewhat amorphous question, with the answer depending on the issue and even the phase of his administration.
Brown declined interview requests made the last three work days of the week, saying he was too busy. On Friday evening, Brown released a statement through spokesman David DeCamp reiterating he is "against discrimination in our city." The statement did not address questions regarding the mayor's leadership on the human rights ordinance or the general importance of mayoral leadership.
Brown's reticence on the human rights ordinance struck many as unusual in a city used to mayors weighing in on a range of issue.
"I think you have to take a stand," said former Mayor Jake Godbold. "Whether it's right or wrong, you take a stand and live with it."
Due to consolidation, a large amount of power in Duval County is concentrated in one person's hands — and with that much power, the mayor of Jacksonville has to dive into a host of issues, making sure he's the voice and face of the city, Godbold said.
"It's very important in this sort of government. This is a government that was put together with some damn good people who knew what they were doing," Godbold said. "The mayor is the leader."
But "leading" — as opposed, say, to governing or managing — isn't the only part of the mayor's job. In the most recent example, some say, Brown might have been showcasing a different mayoral skill: realpolitik.
"I could argue he was brilliant if he didn't want it [the human rights ordinance amendment] passed. He didn't engage," Delaney said of the legislation that failed by one vote. "He didn't make particular enemies by picking one side or the other. One could say that's a rather brilliant political calculation."
On other fronts, a typical mayoral aspiration to lead on a River City Renaissance or Better Jacksonville project is difficult for Brown in an era of strained city finances.
"His stance of no new taxes, that limits the policy debate pretty strongly," said Matt Corrigan, head of University of North Florida's Political Science department.
Wherever Brown's reputation as a leader stands now, the coming year will be his chance to polish it — or, perhaps more accurately, a requirement that he do so.
Brown has said this will be the year of pension reform, when he moves to change the system eating up $150 million of city revenue in the coming fiscal year.
In his statement, Brown said he's taken a "thoughtful, methodical and thorough approach" to pension reform. "I had a choice on this issue — be a show horse or a workhorse," he said. "I chose to be a workhorse."
Pension changes, by law, must be negotiated with the public employees — and, by law, those negotiations must be led by the mayor, with the council playing no role until the end.
"In this particular case, it's important the mayor lead the parade," said Bishop, who is hopeful Brown will. "In this case, the mayor has to lead."
timothy.gibbons@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4103
QuoteField, you know you are never going to get anywhere by just trying to smear other peoples careers.
Smear careers?
I have little respect for an elected official that puts their own career goals ahead of whats best for the city they were elected to lead.
I've never put my career above what I thought was right or wrong. I expect people in charge of leading the city I so deeply care for to live up to those same standards.
Tell you what, Stephen. If you can get an official, direct response from Brown - not a second-hand account from the PR guy - that he did not encourage Gaffney to change his vote and oppose the HRO in 2012, I'll let it go.
Quoteit's hard to imagine a businessman running such a weak staff as Brown. It's hard to imagine an accountant mismanaging the budget this badly. And given those two things, he shouldn't have the problem of so thoroughly alienating the City Council as Brown has.
Two words: John Peyton.
Granted Peyton wasn't an accountant, but he was the 'glamour boy businessman'. He could and should have resolved the pension crisis during his second term. He didn't, thus making it much worse. He had some investment scheme that tanked almost immediately. He had some lousy appointments as well. His relations with city council improved some over time, but were disastrous out of the gate and for several years.
Vote for Brown, you get 4 years of mediocrity. Vote for Curry you get 8 years of irrelevant GOP platitudes and a deer in the headlights.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 20, 2015, 12:15:55 PM
Tell you what, Stephen. If you can get an official, direct response from Brown - not a second-hand account from the PR guy - that he did not encourage Gaffney to change his vote and oppose the HRO in 2012, I'll let it go.
shouldn't it properly be that you provide a direct response from Gaffney that he did?
Come on, Gaffney would never admit that he got got if it's true. And he's headed out of office anyway. Our illustrious Mayor, however, is up for re-election. It seems like the easiest way to quash the allegation would be to just to deny it. So, will you reach out to him?
Quote from: vicupstate on April 20, 2015, 12:35:52 PM
Quoteit's hard to imagine a businessman running such a weak staff as Brown. It's hard to imagine an accountant mismanaging the budget this badly. And given those two things, he shouldn't have the problem of so thoroughly alienating the City Council as Brown has.
Two words: John Peyton.
Granted Peyton wasn't an accountant, but he was the 'glamour boy businessman'. He could and should have resolved the pension crisis during his second term. He didn't, thus making it much worse. He had some investment scheme that tanked almost immediately. He had some lousy appointments as well. His relations with city council improved some over time, but were disastrous out of the gate and for several years.
Vote for Brown, you get 4 years of mediocrity. Vote for Curry you get 8 years of irrelevant GOP platitudes and a deer in the headlights.
We'd be lucky for another Peyton vs. another 4 years of Brown. Peyton had his faults, especially at the beginning, but he wasn't nearly this bad. The City Council never had to take the budget away from him, for instance. And he did eventually come up with a workable pension plan, which Brown scrapped as soon as he got into office.
In reality, it's vote for Brown, we get another 4 years of disaster. Vote for Curry, at worst we get 4 years of mediocrity - and he just may surprise everyone and be a decent mayor.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 12:43:37 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 20, 2015, 12:38:36 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 20, 2015, 12:15:55 PM
Tell you what, Stephen. If you can get an official, direct response from Brown - not a second-hand account from the PR guy - that he did not encourage Gaffney to change his vote and oppose the HRO in 2012, I'll let it go.
shouldn't it properly be that you provide a direct response from Gaffney that he did?
Come on, Gaffney would never admit that he got got if it's true. And he's headed out of office anyway. Our illustrious Mayor, however, is up for re-election. It seems like the easiest way to quash the allegation would be to just to deny it. So, will you reach out to him?
So the outgoing politician has more reason to lie than the one running for reelection? Come on, Taca. Thats silly on the face of it and you know it. Produce one credible direct statement that the mayor caused 17 council people to vote against it, or do the decent thing and stop repeating Jimmy Midyette's ridiculous claim.
As I said twice already, the claim I'm repeating is from Warren Jones: that someone got to Gaffney (just one councilman) and got him to flip, and the likeliest suspect is the Mayor. Now, we can go around in circles, or you can just ask the Mayor to settle the question once and for all.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 20, 2015, 12:52:11 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 12:43:37 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 20, 2015, 12:38:36 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 20, 2015, 12:15:55 PM
Tell you what, Stephen. If you can get an official, direct response from Brown - not a second-hand account from the PR guy - that he did not encourage Gaffney to change his vote and oppose the HRO in 2012, I'll let it go.
shouldn't it properly be that you provide a direct response from Gaffney that he did?
Come on, Gaffney would never admit that he got got if it's true. And he's headed out of office anyway. Our illustrious Mayor, however, is up for re-election. It seems like the easiest way to quash the allegation would be to just to deny it. So, will you reach out to him?
So the outgoing politician has more reason to lie than the one running for reelection? Come on, Taca. Thats silly on the face of it and you know it. Produce one credible direct statement that the mayor caused 17 council people to vote against it, or do the decent thing and stop repeating Jimmy Midyette's ridiculous claim.
As I said twice already, the claim I'm repeating is from Warren Jones: that someone got to Gaffney (just one councilman) and got him to flip, and the likeliest suspect is the Mayor. Now, we can go around in circles, or you can just ask the Mayor to settle the question once and for all.
Warren Jones detailed that Johnny (and all the council people) had been under pressure and intense communications for three months. Something we all saw on television and in the room with the crowds there to speak. He said that he 'doubted' that it had much of an impact on Johnny. and he 'suspected' that the mayor spoke with him as well.
But nothing about this whole 'terrified of the bill' and nothing definitive, just a suspicion which he has never repeated.
The mayor was clearly very happy the bill didn't get to his desk. Warren Jones' actual quote was "I know the mayor is glad it didn't land on his desk."
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
And yet here you guys are repeating this hoary tale of a mayor in crisis, blackmailing or bullying every available councilperson, and then going through byzantine coverups to keep the 'real truth' from the public. Its absurd.
I said at least three times in this thread alone that I only believe the mayor got to one councilman, Gaffney, or at most two, Reggie Brown.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
A Civil Rights bill, introduced by black democrats, endorsed by republican mayors, and an overwhelming host of the business community. What would you say the mayor would 'fear' from that bill landing on his desk?
Conceivable, the mayor feared the bill hitting his desk where he'd have to either pass it or veto it, meaning he'd have to make a decision on an ostensibly controversial issue. This is apparently true, whether Jones' claims are true or not. But either way, three of the six democrats in the council ultimately voted against "a Civil Rights bill, introduced by black democrats, endorsed by republican mayors, and an overwhelming host of the business community." One of them, Gaffney, had always been supportive on LGBT issues before and was considered a lock. So what happened?
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
I expect this kind of reasoning from Jimmy, but considering that the vote was 17-2 against the HRO, even if Alvin Brown promised to eat Johnny Gaffney's liver while ass raping his pet dog, it literally would have had no effect on the outcome.
The vote I'm talking about, as I think you know, is the 10-9 vote against the compromise bill. Gaffney was the deciding vote that defeated it.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
Gaffney even admitted that if the vote had been closer he would have voted the other way.
Which by the way is tendentious of Gaffney. He has spoken out of both sides of his mouth on every issue that has confronted springfield.
Yes, as I say, Gaffney gave several inconsistent answers as to why he flipped, none of them very convincing.
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
But really, the mayor is 'speaking through underlings'? David DeCamp is actually employed to do that you know. There is a reason why he's called a press secretary, lol.
If the press secretary gave you a response with the mayor's signature on it, that would be fine with me. But if it's just another, "the mayor isn't, uh, available right now, but, uh, I think it's false," then...
Quote from: stephendare on April 20, 2015, 01:09:25 PM
But to your question, Taca. I have sent a request to his office to see whether he is interested in responding to Jimmy Midyette's oft repeated narrative, and separately if he spoke with Gaffney against voting for the HRO. Would you reach out to Gaffney or Warren for something definitive?
Thank you, Stephen. And sure, I'll email them, but of course I don't own a popular website.
Any update on this? Perhaps the mayor is just too busy today.
I haven't gotten any response. Not terribly surprised.
This isn't my "ridiculous claim." It comes from Warren Jones. Mayor Brown had three chances to keep the bill from his desk. The first was when his Chief of Staff discouraged the LGBT community from moving forward on the issue in early 2012. The second was when he tried to get Warren to pull his bill back in April 2012. And the third, as Warren (not me) posits, was when he got to Gaffney and had him change his vote. Gaffney was in favor of the substitute at committee. And in favor of marriage equality and the HRO in a candidate questionnaire.
And despite his bizarre claim of confusion, Gaffney wasn't so confused that he skipped the "victory lap" service at First Baptist Church in late August 2012.
Here's a refresher of that shameful moment, rescued from the dustbin of the internet:
http://www.youtube.com/v/CtBaxVT5etQ
All this debate about the past is counterproductive in my opinion. Victory on this issue lies ahead of us, after the election next month. I have seen or heard nothing from either candidate for Mayor that gives me a warm fuzzy on any of this. I have no idea how I'll vote in the Mayoral come May 19.
Chris is definitely not anti-gay. But he didn't feel that 2012 was the right time to move forward with the HRO, despite my insistence that it would be moving. (In the aftermath of the campaign promise on the HRO, the LGBT community was moving forward...)
I have been told by others who work for the Mayor that this is a "second term" issue.
At this point I'm looking forward. I'll be with the Mayor on Sunday and if he's up for it, I'll ask how he's feeling these days about the concept. I owe Mr. Curry the same courtesy. I'll report back if there's anything substantive to share.
Stephen, how do you explain the mayor's failure to take a stand supporting the HRO? Even if he didn't work to defeat it, he damn sure didn't do a thing to help it. He's still not.
QuoteI have been told by others who work for the Mayor that this is a "second term" issue.
LOL, politicians will say anything to get elected. Where are all those "I'm with Alvin" buttons and raving fans from 4 years ago. Let the last 4 years of indecision be that bitter pill for you. Even Delaney said that Curry knows in his heart what the right things are to do.
" You can't build a reputation on what you're going to do...Ultimately, we're all measured by what we've done." - Henry Ford
Quote from: Tacachale on April 22, 2015, 06:12:18 PM
Stephen, how do you explain the mayor's failure to take a stand supporting the HRO? Even if he didn't work to defeat it, he damn sure didn't do a thing to help it. He's still not.
Because he personally doesn't believe in it...and neither does Curry.
The difference is the Mayor has people around him encouraging him every day to reconsider his personal beliefs on the issue....and Curry has the conservative-dominated Republican party advising and guiding him....just look at what the Florida House is doing on the LIP/Medicaid issue.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 22, 2015, 06:28:25 PM
Even Delaney said that Curry knows in his heart what the right things are to do.
if that were the case, how does Delaney explain the positions Curry advocated for while chairman of the local and state Republican party?
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 23, 2015, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 22, 2015, 06:28:25 PM
Even Delaney said that Curry knows in his heart what the right things are to do.
if that were the case, how does Delaney explain the positions Curry advocated for while chairman of the local and state Republican party?
You could ask him. He'll probably reply. I doubt you could say that about Alvin's crew.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 23, 2015, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 22, 2015, 06:12:18 PM
Stephen, how do you explain the mayor's failure to take a stand supporting the HRO? Even if he didn't work to defeat it, he damn sure didn't do a thing to help it. He's still not.
Because he personally doesn't believe in it...and neither does Curry.
The difference is the Mayor has people around him encouraging him every day to reconsider his personal beliefs on the issue....and Curry has the conservative-dominated Republican party advising and guiding him....just look at what the Florida House is doing on the LIP/Medicaid issue.
I'll take your word on Alvin. But that's not at all what I hear about Curry. I think we've got a good chance at him supporting the HRO.
At any rate, Curry also has all those business and Chamber folks that want the HRO advising him and guiding him. The folks that previously backed Brown until he proved to be a disappointment.
Brown had those people advising him, plus every Democrat group and lobby in the city, and he *still* opposes the HRO. What does that say? Nothing good.
Quote from: stephendare on April 23, 2015, 01:37:29 PM
From todays press notice
QuoteToday, Mayor Alvin Brown is making a major announcement to help city office holders prevent discrimination - and we wanted you to hear it directly from him.
In this Video Announcement, Mayor Alvin Brown has asked his Office of General Counsel to conduct a comparative study of federal, state, and local laws that combat discrimination. The Mayor's leadership on this issue will ensure that city office holders have the information they need to take the actions necessary to prevent discrimination in Jacksonville.
Mayor Brown has listened to the people of Jacksonville who have spoken up with great passion about this issue, and is showing leadership and vision by taking this action.
This study ordered by Mayor Brown has been praised by community leaders for being a crucial step in guaranteeing that Jacksonville will not have discrimination and that all of its citizens will be treated fairly and equally.
LOL! What timing.
I'm probably not going to win many friends with this, but here's the reaction of the PAC.
MAYOR ALVIN BROWN ADDRESSES DISCRIMINATION IN JACKSONVILLE
The Northeast Florida Leadership PAC today acknowledges Mayor Alvin Brown's statement this morning concerning discrimination in Jacksonville. Where previously the Mayor said that discrimination against anyone is wrong, which we certainly agree it is, Mayor Brown today moved toward finding new solutions to prevent discrimination in Jacksonville. He has ordered the General Counsel to complete a study of local, state, and federal non-discrimination protections. As all other categories (race, gender, age, religion, etc.) are currently covered by local, state, and federal protections, the only remaining characteristics for which protections are needed in Jacksonville are on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity and expression.
"I am hopeful the General Counsel will undertake this work quickly and have something meaningful to guide the new City Council," said Jimmy Midyette, the PAC Chair. "Since 2012, we have heard countless reports of discrimination against LGBT residents and visitors to Jacksonville. Companies have skipped over our area for expansion based on the lack of these protections. If the study is comparative, and other major metropolitan areas in Florida and the nation are considered, it will be clear where the gaps are as Jacksonville is the last major city in Florida lacking these protections."
Other studies of this issue in Jacksonville have revealed the compelling need for these protections for LGBT people in the areas of housing, employment, and public accommodations. This issue has been thoughtfully studied by the Jacksonville Human Rights Commission who unanimously voted to support the updated Human Rights Ordinance. It has also been studied by JCCI, who issued a Forward Report on the status of LGBT people in Jacksonville. The issue was studied for the Jax2025 initiative and is part of the required benchmarks for success. And, finally, the Duval County Democratic Executive Committee studied the need for these protections and passed a resolution in support of adding the categories of sexual orientation and gender identity and expression to the city's Human Rights Ordinance.
It is necessary, however, for Mayor Brown or his team to clarify for the community the parameters of the General Counsel's study. We are cautiously optimistic that it is the ongoing issue of discrimination against people in Jacksonville's LGBT community that he seeks to remedy.
Further, in light of criticism of this move leveled against Mayor Brown by the Lenny Curry campaign this morning, we find it hypocritical of Mr. Curry's operation to chide Mayor Brown while offering no policy direction of its own on this issue. The voters of Jacksonville deserve to know if Lenny Curry agrees that the General Counsel should study gaps in our nondiscrimination ordinances, or not. And if not, how would Mr. Curry solve the problem of our city's lack of nondiscrimination protections for LGBT people?
The PAC is keeping its focus on the May 19 general election. "Our goal remains to elect a City Council that will send the Mayor a comprehensive update to our nondiscrimination ordinances that at long last expresses that Jacksonville is a tolerant city, respective of diversity, that is truly ready to take its place on the world stage," said Midyette. "We are looking for next-level leadership on this issue; Jacksonville deserves no less."
Quote from: Apache on April 23, 2015, 02:45:44 PM
The infamous jacksonville study. Shouldn't someone already have a study on this?
How was the bill crafted without some such study to determine if it was in fact needed?
How was the bill debated and voted upon without these facts that the mayor is now looking for?
And, of course, if there was no such information available during the proposing of the bill, why didn't the mayor ask for it back then?
Confusing to commission a study now.
Excellent questions. Unfortunately, the answer to all of them is that it's just a transparent attempt at damage control after yesterday.
Quote from: Apache on April 23, 2015, 02:51:35 PM
For those that don't want to watch the video. The cliff's notes are below:
Mayor Brown: Hello Gays, I've finally heard you. And... I will get back to you on that HRO thingy...right after I'm elected to my second and final term.
Thanks
HAHAHA!
Here's the cliffs notes to the LPAC statement:
LPAC: This study is just a cynical political stunt that would waste taxpayer money telling us what we already know, but we're too nice to say it in those words. Lenny, it's time to put up or shut up. In the meantime, we're focusing on the City Council.
Quote from: stephendare on April 23, 2015, 03:09:06 PM
because we will pay the general counsel's office extra to do this?
Yes, dedicating their time and resources to an unnecessary campaign project is, indeed, a waste. At least it's a step up from what they were doing yesterday.
You guys really get me.
Stephen, in all seriousness, thank you for posting the letter. I hadn't seen it anywhere else. It makes the intent a little clearer. If I was MAB, I'd ask Mr. Gabriel to illuminate us as to the scope of the request. Are we talking about discrimination against gingers, bald guys, lefties, what? General Counsel could do that spare the Mayor the... heartache?
Quote from: Apache on April 23, 2015, 02:51:35 PM
For those that don't want to watch the video. The cliff's notes are below:
Mayor Brown: Hello Gays, I've finally heard you. And... I will get back to you on that HRO thingy...right after I'm elected to my second and final term.
Thanks
Perfect explanation. This is obviously nothing but a political move - someone on his staff finally got through to him that it was a good idea. I particularly like the fact that even though other studies have been done, we need another one. Just a way to delay actually doing anything about the HRO at this time. Of course, he may not have to worry about how to get out of this later because he could end up not our Mayor.
Sometimes not doing anything is better than making such obvious moves.
^Totally. What happened is that yesterday, one of the city's most well known HRO supporters endorsed the other guy. When the campaign's tepid statements and 5-year-old Twitter memes didn't bury the story, this is what they came up with. It's political damage control, period.
Quote from: stephendare on April 23, 2015, 07:08:20 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 23, 2015, 06:28:51 PM
^Totally. What happened is that yesterday, one of the city's most well known HRO supporters endorsed the other guy. When the campaign's tepid statements and 5-year-old Twitter memes didn't bury the story, this is what they came up with. It's political damage control, period.
meh. whatever. Im glad the process is moving towards an HRO again. Seems like the right thing to do, no matter what.
Must have been embarrassing for a smart, reasonable HRO supporter to endorse the guy the day before he sends out an "OH SHIT! Hillary Clinton will take over Jville if you don't vote for ME!" email out.
Doesn't seem like his class of people. ;)
Hey, I don't think Curry is very good either. Just about the same as Brown actually. But at least Curry means some amount of change. As to Hillary Clinton taking over Jacksonville, while worst things could happen (like perhaps things remaining as they are for another four years), but I have my doubts that she really cares much what happens here.
The thread asks "Who will be out next Mayor"? That being the parameter of the opening question to this discussion all of us who comment with the name of a candidate have a 50/50 percent chance of being right in our choice. :)
Right now we are down to two candidates, neither of which answers direct questions about important issues. Both resort to political double talk by answering queries with no real information, just open ended statements. Basically they tell us nothing while using a lot of words. What puzzles me at this juncture is why there is so much jockeying at this point in the attempt to try and frame one man as a superior choice to the other. From where I stand, neither is even close to ideal and "they are more similar than different".
Both love to hear themselves talk and standing in the spotlight. Both have sizable ego's dressed in a badly fitting suit of I am just another average guy. Both can excite listeners by pushing well worn political rhetoric and big promises. Both have people who they have totally seduced with their salesmanship of themselves and their vision and each man is looking forward politically. Jacksonville is a stepping stone for them, pure and simple.
I said this in another thread but will repeat it here, it is not about the men as individuals but rather the experience, skills or lack there of that they would bring to the office. Both speak in platitudes, some well worn in print and voice so far like the 36,000 new jobs, blah, blah, blah of Alvin Brown, the result of organic economic growth. I want everyone in Jacksonville to have a chance at success at the hands of a real conservative Lenny Curry line followed by I have always voted Republican blah, blah, blah. One offering a pension plan with fatal flaws and the other magically producing one, un reviewed and without specifics after the first election cycle. I mean come on guys. Neither man will give a simple yes to the HRO protection for the civil rights of all of Jacksonville's citizens which surprise, does include the GLBT members of our community. They give us layers of words that simply talk around the issue rather than showing leadership and saying what they are thinking. Instead we get Brown announcing he will let the general council resolve the question legally, which is just another way of saying he will not make a decision himself and take a pass on leadership by simply passing the buck, to John Delaney saying Curry knows in his heart what is right cause they talked. Guess what, I don't care what Curry told John in private, I care what Curry says on the record to the public himself about what is right and the HRO. Both of these guys are dodging a serious issue, not facing it down in an fashion that shows leadership. Neither man says they will raise taxes but both will have to come up with money to fix a broken budget and that will not come via audits or no tax promises. We need revenue to function with basic services, where the heck is that going to come from? Neither man can say because frankly they haven't a clue where they will get the money beyond borrowing it and indebting the taxpayers even further.
All they know is that a no tax pledge sounds good and they are gonna go with it. Neither man is more conservative on this issue than the other and neither man is more liberal on the civil rights of the GLBT community than the other. Both men see stars when dealing with Shad Khan and his wild visions for our future. This does not bode well for the taxpayers because a leader indebted to or dazzled by a billionaire's dreams quickly loses sight of the fact that the ultra rich get richer by spending other peoples money and using their assets, not their own. In this case we have Khan, the big money dude followed by Sleiman and Rummell both with agendas that will require public assets to make real. Brown is on board with Sleiman and Curry is on board with Rummell. Both men have no real answer for our crime issues and neither has an adequate answer to solving the problem without extra funding, but neither can say where the money for better protection and more officers will come from. Then there is the evangelical aspect of the candidates which has both quoting scripture and working the Christian crowd, forgetting that we are a diverse community of various beliefs who all deserve equal representation in our government free of the religious overtones of one group or another. Religion should be a personal commitment, not a political tool. The truth is that Jacksonville is now facing a choice between two candidates backed by opposing political parties and private interests that have put the average person outside of the political circle of all that is Jacksonville save the need for their vote. The question now becomes are we voting for a representative for our city or for a political player for one party or the other? Curry is clearly GOP material and has brought the political mindset of that party's top players to Jacksonville while Brown, claiming to represent all is being backed by the Dem machine and has readily accepted the support and endorsements of the top echelon of personalities at the highest levels of that party. For me this all comes down to one thing. Both men have already shown us who they are, how they operate and what they will say or do to get into office. The voters have to look past the packaging and see what they are really buying with their vote. In my view this comes down to one simple question which is, what is better for Jacksonville, four more years of Alvin Brown in the hopes that he finally shows some leadership and understanding of all things financial or eight years of Lenny Curry whose backers are far right GOP hardliner/evangelicals who have too long held power over the hearts and minds of too many citizens of Jacksonville? The voters foolishly looked past the real moderate candidate and we are left to decide between two men whose actions over the next few years can make us, break us or keep us running in circles. Which will it be?
Brown has shown us who he is already. A guy ready for the spotlight, never missing a photo op while able to leap a tall building while claiming personal responsibility for all local job growth and successes whether he was incremental to those or not. He has shown us that he claims to keep promises but in reality doesn't quite come through as in the no tax increase yet the truth being our taxes went up on his watch by 14%. He told the GLBT community that he would support their efforts to ensure equal rights via the HRO but he did nothing to promote the legislation. A promise unkept becomes a lie. Sure, we get that all the time in politics so we know he will spin a story to suit a need. Brown has shown us who he is. A guy who is very likable and able to stir people with his words and promises and very short on leadership qualities.
Curry has show us who he really is. A guy who follows the GOP party line. A man who walks in lock step with party thinking at all levels. Can tell us what is wrong with the other candidate but not what he can do better, while showing us that he will willingly set the bar of negative politics very, very low using fear and party positioning to do so but he ran a business for 10 years. These are our choices.
QuoteA guy who is very likable and able to stir people with his words and promises and very short on leadership qualities.
Pretty much sums up the last 4 years of Brown.
Anyone catch the latest stump speech? Brown wants to raise the minimum wage from $8.05 to $10.10 / hr
http://www.news4jax.com/news/mayor-calls-for-minimum-wage-increase/32553458 (http://www.news4jax.com/news/mayor-calls-for-minimum-wage-increase/32553458)
The LGBT issue, now this, the raise of minimum wage, they are 100% pure politics pointed at Curry, as Brown tries to carry the votes vacated by Bishop. Brown trying to capture the Riverside Avondale crowds. Pure politics.
So as Mayor, LGBT was not important for him, nor was a higher minimum wage, but now, days apart, the man that the camera cannot stop loving, has found new ways to get out in front of the camera.
Some minimum wage humor....
(http://conservativepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Min-Wage-590-LA.jpg)
This is a reoccurring theme on this thread as its some new phenomenon that a politician would try to find political positions that people like just before an election.
That is in fact why we have elections so the populace can maneuver leadership into doing what the people want.
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 25, 2015, 03:28:44 PM
This is a reoccurring theme on this thread as its some new phenomenon that a politician would try to find political positions that people like just before an election.
That is in fact why we have elections so the populace can maneuver leadership into doing what the people want.
Not exactly. lol That is just one facet of what the election process is about and our process has been changed by big money, even in Jacksonville.
Diane .... you are right on with your #131 post ... and with most of your others.
Repeat from my post # 49.
"Shame on all who voted for Curry ... and to some degree .. shame on all who voted for Brown and not for Bishop -- because you ruined the path to the ideal. Seems sorta like a chess game. You massage the field so as to achieve a win, but the path is not necessarily direct and straight. Voters should have destroyed Curry in the first round, but NOT given either Brown or Bishop a win, thereby giving the whole process the positive energy and gain which only debates and good sense can produce over time."
The ideal ... Having as an objective .... that of improving the lot of the average citizen ... which means 90% of the citizens .. thus avoiding focusing on projects and spending revenue on assets improving the lot of the few ... perhaps those who dump funds and supporting rhetoric onto a candidate's campaign.
Can big projects, as those offered by Kahn and others, improve the standard of living for most citizens? Certainly ... the measured positive impact on the city of large projects such as the shipyards, the dredging, and the landing cannot be denied. However, to focus on, and proceed with, only the large temporarily "exciting" projects while avoiding critical goals such as education and jobs for the large majority in need of these things is unacceptable.
Improving, in a serious and viable way, the standard of living for the majority requires leadership, on the form of a mayor, who is concerned about the majority .. who perceives the nature of the predicaments obstructing progress to building a fundamental economic structure that allows the majority to use their energy and determination to improve their lot by their own initiative and actions.
From my view ... admittedly limited by ignorance and a good measure of the stupid ... ... the mayor must be "for" the majority ... must be 'free" from excessive influence from moneyed supporters, oligarchic control, and political parties .... he or she must be determined ... perceiving the realities surrounding the needs and objectives affecting the majority so as to garner the eloquence to convince others of the best path to goals. These characteristics will provide the strength of leadership, without which all is lost ... without which the city will continue in mediocrity, shining only occasionally.
Let's be honest. We've a city shaped and controlled by the pressure of a theocratic ... oligarchic ... power base ... which alone provides pressure against the passing of the HRO. We've a growing city debt placing our bond rating in jeopardy .... and a runaway police/firemen pension plan obligation of $2.7 billion ... with a $156,000,000 or so obligation every year.
And we are set to elect either Brown or Curry, both of whom are totally ambiguous on the HRO, and somehow believe we can recover .... survive .. without raising taxes? These politicians are telling gullible, and somewhat ignorant, people what they want to hear ... not the truth .... and not what they must hear if they are to support actions to resolve our most pressing financial problems.
If I remember correctly, Bill Bishop stated that the city is in default on both our pension plans and other debt obligations. These are massive obligations that somebody must worry about, and take actions on.
How can voters give a serious invite to a mediocre politician such as Curry ... an obviously bought pawn of the GOP machine ... who's real deficiencies emerged for all to see during the debates ... and who's debate appearance maxed out with such profound statements as "no new taxes" .. and "we must have a safe city".
Four years ago, people voted for change. They thought Brown, the former deli counter worked at Winn Dixie with loads of experience in DC would change the Jacksonville landscape. He changed it all right, he failed to show any sort of leadership in working with city council, in 4 years. Not just one budget was redone by city council, all 4 had to be redone, due to is inability to balance the city budget. If the City Council had allowed his budgets to pass, just think of all the DEBT that they city would have added, and then people would be whistling dixie out of their rear end, because the Kool-aid tastes so great, but we'll pass the debt onto our kids and let them figure it out.
Leadership is what is lacking in City Hall, but Brown seems to have found a friend in Sleiman and Khan, both of whom appear to have growing businesses under the Brown administration. Brown is a nice guy, the kind you may want to have as a friend, but he is not a leader and he has yet to show that he can work with people to get the job/task done. HRO, Budget, Pension, he approaches everything as if its his way or the highway, and this hurts all of Jacksonville. The man would rather work with outsiders of Jacksonville, GE, ATT, GOOGLE, than work with the people inside of Jacksonville. His record shows this over the last 4 years. We cannot afford to have a mayor who cannot work with the people and citizens of Jacksonville. This man will make a great foreign diplomat for Hillary, but he has not proven he can lead at home.
^Very true. Brown does have a lot of good qualities, but management and leadership are unfortunately just not among them. I think he could serve us well in another capacity, but he's not cut out for being mayor.
I didn't vote for change 4 years ago. Both candidates were a change from Peyton. I voted for lesser of two evils. And I'm doing that again by supporting Brown over Curry.
I voted for Brown too, thinking he was the lesser of two evils. As it turned out, the gamble didn't pay off. I'm not making the same bad bet twice.
I did the same, but this time around my vote will not be for Brown. Can't fool me twice.
Quote from: fsujax on April 27, 2015, 04:50:27 PM
I did the same, but this time around my vote will not be for Brown. Can't fool me twice.
+1
QuoteI voted for Brown too, thinking he was the lesser of two evils. As it turned out, the gamble didn't pay off. I'm not making the same bad bet twice.
+1, although I NEVER voted for Brown, and based on his last 4 years would never support him either!
Brown has gone from being the lesser of two evils to the evil of two lessers. ;-)