FDOT Quiet Zones Grant Program Phase II Overview
Funding Authority:
Florida State Legislature HB 5001: The FY14-15 General Appropriations Act.
In accordance with legislative action; approximately $4,000,000 of residual funds from General Appropriation HB-5001; Line 1890, ($10,000,000) is provided for Quiet Zone improvements in response to the use of locomotive horns at highway-rail grade crossings. Phase II of the grant program for quiet zones, as requested by local agencies, will provide funding of up to 50 percent of the nonfederal and non-private share of the total costs of any qualifying quiet zone capital improvement project. Local agencies may apply for grant funds after its quiet zone plan is approved by federal regulatory authorities.
The Department of Transportation (FDOT) will monitor crossing incidents at approved quiet zone locations and have the right to revoke the quiet zone(s) at any time if a significant deterioration in safety results from quiet zone implementation.
Funding Frequency:
This is Phase II of a one-time appropriation FY2014/FY2015
During Phase I approximately $6M in grant funds was awarded. As a result we will have a about $4M remaining for phase II of the program which is scheduled to begin in mid-February with a deadline at the end of April.
Funding Overview:
The grant is open statewide to local municipalities for assistance with rail crossing quiet zones.
The Deadline for grant request submittals is April 30, 2015
The grant award date(s) is/are pending following receipt of all requests
Award amounts will likely vary greatly depending on the variable nature of the crossing improvements statewide
Funding Priority Criteria:
Consideration for FDOT grant funding will include the following priorities:
agency participation above 50%
appropriate provisions for crossing closures
responsible supplemental safety measures (SSM) cost management
optimal length of quiet zone development
phase I award status
Local participation above 50% and quiet zone plans that feature provisions for crossing closures are key prioritization elements. Selected applicants will execute a Joint Rail Project Agreement (Non-Federal) establishing the scope of work and terms of payment.
Funding Match Detail:
The quiet zones program will provide local governments up to 50% of incurred quiet zone expenditures. Local agencies may apply for assistance once they have met all requirements of the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) in accordance with 49 CFR 222 and 229. To initiate the evaluation process, jurisdictional partners would need to submit a funding request letter to the FDOT Rail Office prior to the April 30, 2015 submittal deadline.
So that we can ensure that uniform information is disseminated, please advise all interested parties to direct their questions to the individuals shown below:
Information on the Quiet Zone process can be found at http://www.fra.dot.gov/search?q=Quiet+Zones. If you need clarification on the Notice of Intent to Establish a Quiet Zone process or have other technical Quiet Zone inquiries, please contact Tom Drake, FRA, at (770) 251-6186.
For grant funding questions and to discuss any award process concerns, please contact Andre Goins, FDOT's Rail Operations and Programs Administrator at (850) 414-4620 or andre.goins@dot.state.fl.us.
André W. Goins, P.E.
State Rail Operations and Programs Administrator
Operation Lifesaver State Coordinator
Florida Department of Transportation
Office of Freight, Logistics and Passenger Operations
605 Suwannee Street, MS-25
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-0450
Office: (850) 414-4620
Fax: (850) 414-4508
Website: www.oli.org
Email: Andre.Goins@dot.state.fl.us
Anyone interested in getting rid of the train horn noise in Jax? Speaking from experience, the train horn noise in Jax is disruptive, especially at night.
Does this mean my movies and sleep won't be interrupted by horns anymore? Would I be able to sit outside of aardwolf and sidecar without being deafened? Haha
I would be all for eliminating the horns. If we need to improve the crossings with more lighting or better gates, let's get it done!
Quote from: stephendare on April 10, 2015, 12:58:23 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on April 10, 2015, 12:55:27 PM
Anyone interested in getting rid of the train horn noise in Jax? Speaking from experience, the train horn noise in Jax is disruptive, especially at night.
So is an explosion from a gas truck being hit by a train that is running silently.
With that kind of thinking we should just have a solid blast the entire time the train is in a populated area. That way any kids or animals around the track would be alerted and could scurry off before they were rolled over. Not to discriminate against the deaf, we would also need to put a 5,000 watt disco ball on the front of the train.
But doesn't the City of Jax have to be the applicant? And commit to at least 50% of the cost of upgrading the crossings in the proposed quiet zone? As glacially as the COJ moves, you will be lucky to get an application in by the April 30 2016 deadline.
I don't think it would be that much of a safety issue through those areas. Since the track is only a few miles from the CSX to FEC yards the trains are going pretty darn slow. I can't think of ever seeing one go more than what I would guess at 20mph and most seem to be slower than that.
I don't want to work against safety, but I do think it's excessive.
I like the horns at night and I'm not the only one. The first train comes through around 12:30am, and that the 'go home, you have to work in the morning' horn. The next one isn't until 2:30am, and that's the 'wtf are you thinking' horn. The 3rd is 6ish am and is basically the angel of death horn if I've already heard the other 2 without some sleep in between. ;)
If you want quiet DON'T LIVE IN THE CITY, any city!
There's always to option of removing more crossings or adding a grade separated crossing.
I grew up in the northeast and that sound is my nostalgic connection. Heard those tracks ans horns most of my life. I would recommend sleeping with a fan on!
When my mom visits she says she actually likes hearing the horns at night. She says she feels like it signifies that something is going on here, like a real city. She lives in the burbs north of Atlanta.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8721/16927020708_c0bb884a76_o.png)
Quote from: acme54321 on April 10, 2015, 02:04:20 PM
I don't think it would be that much of a safety issue through those areas. Since the track is only a few miles from the CSX to FEC yards the trains are going pretty darn slow. I can't think of ever seeing one go more than what I would guess at 20mph and most seem to be slower than that.
You'd find it amazing what one of Florida East Coast's new 12-cylinder, 4-stroke, turbocharged engine, 432,000 pound, 196,000 kilogram, Evolution Series locomotives can do for your Honda at 20mph. BTW, The Evolution Series Locomotive is so powerful that one 12-cylinder locomotive can pull the equivalent of 170 Boeing 747 jetliners.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on April 10, 2015, 01:19:14 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 10, 2015, 12:58:23 PM
With that kind of thinking we should just have a solid blast the entire time the train is in a populated area. That way any kids or animals around the track would be alerted and could scurry off before they were rolled over. Not to discriminate against the deaf, we would also need to put a 5,000 watt disco ball on the front of the train.
Every railroader in town would know what that long solid blast means! "When train is stopped. The air brakes are applied and pressure is equalized."
All kidding aside, surrendering three smaller crossings for a single super crossing, with full 4-quadrant protection or an overpass is a great trade off. The City receives a cash grant for each closed crossing. The amount is generally smallish, but could easily fund a new park project, or some such public project. If Florida wasn't stuck on spending the family fortune on roads, they could copy New Mexico (or Palatka) and create overpasses using giant corrugated pipe and fill. It's quick, it's cheap, it lasts forever, a great solution.
Otherwise, from your broken friend, Kudo's on this for Lake and Stephen.
I actually liked hearing the horns while I lived in the slums of San Marco. The horns, along with the engines and rescue units of Fire Station 13 did occasionally interrupt my sleep, but I'm admittedly blessed with the horizontal-I'm-out gene.
I grew up sleeping with a grandmother with severe apnea, a train track nearby and family that were all up at first light - and I still sleep late whenever I can. No matter where I've lived, I find the night sounds oddly comforting, except for the occasional gunfire.
Far too many fools got their drivers license from a Cracker Jacks box or were raised in a vacumn. If not for those people there could be a never ending quiet zone.
I would love to have a Nathan chime on my truck and motorhome.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 10, 2015, 06:11:51 PM
There's always to option of removing more crossings or adding a grade separated crossing.
I agree with you, Lakelander. Grade separated crossings improve safety for drivers, bicyclists and pedestrians.
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/xings/com_roaduser/07010/sec04a.htm
I've never understood why there isn't an overpass "grade seperated crossing" to get to Baptist / Wolfson. I see ambulances get stuck all the time coming south over the acosta and main street bridges. I always feel terrible for the poor schmo that's stuck in the back waiting 20 minutes just for the train to stop and reverse direction before continuing again. lol
Gotta agree with Stephen Dare on this one...
There is a reason for the "long long short long" signal for grade crossings. People may be inconvenienced by the noise, but keep in mind that the tracks were there before the built-up neighborhood. In my opinion, the location we are talking about is far too dense to go with a "silent mode", i.e. relying on gates and lights alone. Traffic is always present there, and they need to coexist.
I lived (in college) one block away from a heavily traveled double track main line, with far more trains than are sent through San Marco today. You get used to it. It's not a nuisance, in my opinion, it's rather a signal that things are moving along, than an impediment to anything.
Again, my opinion...those who wish for "no train horns" are asking for more trouble than they are asking for with respect to mere "convenience".
A live a block from the FEC tracks and right around the corner from a crossing. Honestly, I don't even notice the whistle anymore.
Here's a thought... Let's look at changing the design of the "gates" that have been the same for the last 200 years!
For such a destructive machine that looms beyond "the gate", those flimsy arms wouldn't stop a Fiat 500 from driving through them. You would think by this day and age of all the cool tech that has been designed/developed for security, after 9/11 happened, we would have something more restrictive than these flimsy arms that you can drive through or around easily.
We need something that is impossible to drive through or around, then we could let the trains be more quiet...
Look at draw bridges - the fact that there is a complete barrier makes it so the boats going though don't need to blast a horn the whole time they're crossing through.
We need full barriers - ditch the flimsy "arms", then we can have the "quiet zones".
Quote from: marty904 on April 13, 2015, 07:03:12 AM
Here's a thought... Let's look at changing the design of the "gates" that have been the same for the last 200 years!
For such a destructive machine that looms beyond "the gate", those flimsy arms wouldn't stop a Fiat 500 from driving through them. You would think by this day and age of all the cool tech that has been designed/developed for security, after 9/11 happened, we would have something more restrictive than these flimsy arms that you can drive through or around easily.
We need something that is impossible to drive through or around, then we could let the trains be more quiet...
Look at draw bridges - the fact that there is a complete barrier makes it so the boats going though don't need to blast a horn the whole time they're crossing through.
We need full barriers - ditch the flimsy "arms", then we can have the "quiet zones".
Not sure what drawbridges you're referencing because most all of them around here (the whole state?) have the same exact barrier arms.
I miss the horns now that i'm out in Mandarin. Then again, I always lived a mile or two away from the tracks while in town so they were only slight hums in the distance.
I tell you when the horns bothered me the most, it was while on the Amtrak riding up to NY. Couldn't get any sleep!
Anyone wanting the train noise to go away is not recommending a reckless situation where there's no safety measures in place. As for the romantics that crave the train horn noise, surely they could play a train horn soundtrack on their stereo, bringing back sweet memories of an earlier time.
Quote from: marty904 on April 13, 2015, 07:03:12 AM.......Look at draw bridges .........
I live far enough away from the track that the horn is not a problem. However when the train runs over the DRAW BRIDGE over the Ortega river it sounds like a large engine reving up next door. Not all noise is the horn. Y'all don't want that draw bridge noise in San Marco believe me.
Of course Florida East Coast railway, owner of those San Marco tracks, started around 1896. Trains have been using those tracks longer than most of those folks have been alive. I think this complaint is like moving next to the airport and complaining about all the airplanes.
Quote from: acme54321 on April 13, 2015, 07:12:12 AM
Not sure what drawbridges you're referencing because most all of them around here (the whole state?) have the same exact barrier arms.
I think maybe I didn't explain very well, my example of the drawbridge - not so much the flimsy arms that come down but the actual bridge itself becomes an impassable barrier when it goes up.
My point is, we have so many types of vehicle barriers that have been designed for security, let's use those for safety at the RR crossings.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 11, 2015, 08:20:10 PM
If Florida wasn't stuck on spending the family fortune on roads, they could copy New Mexico (or Palatka) and create overpasses using giant corrugated pipe and fill. It's quick, it's cheap, it lasts forever, a great solution.
Good idea but those CMPs certainly do not last forever. RCP would be a better fit, but by then you may as well build a bridge.
Why not these?:
(http://bollardsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/telescopic1.jpg)
Quote from: PeeJayEss on April 14, 2015, 02:29:55 PM
Why not these?:
(photo of automatic/movable bollards)
I was thinking the same thing -- but I wonder what the reliability maintenance concerns are? I have seen them used in Europe to exclude cars and let buses through, etc, but that was in a low traffic/pedestrian area really... I imagine a railroad right of way is a harsher environment. Having one of these hang up on a rock or something and blocking traffic would be bad.
Although people driving through barricades (whether being careless, ignorant, or intentionally trying to harm themselves) is indeed a problem, I think the biggest issue isn't with the flimsy arms themselves but with malfunctioning equipment. Dateline or 20/20 had something about this about a month ago, and more often than you'd imagine the arms and lights don't operate properly and the only thing left to warn oncoming traffic and pedestrians is whatever sound the train itself can make. One recurring problem was having two trains approach in succession...the barricades would only operate properly for the first passing train and when they opened to allow traffic across...BOOM came the second train in the other direction. Also explains why school buses have to stop and open the door before crossing over train tracks.
So I don't think it's the durability of the barricades themselves that is the top priority.
https://youtu.be/hSrT_ll2vg8?t=31
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 12, 2015, 12:20:49 AM
I've never understood why there isn't an overpass "grade seperated crossing" to get to Baptist / Wolfson. I see ambulances get stuck all the time coming south over the acosta and main street bridges.
I totally agree. Something must be done with that. What a debacle.
^That video has nothing to do with either side of the argument.
1. The train honks it's horn.
2. There are NO crossing arms or gates. Nothing malfunctioned this crossing has no barricade at all, which is insane.
3. The driver ignored the flashing lights and horn thinking she could beat the train, according to the local news station.
4. The driver was speeding.
^^^Preach.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 15, 2015, 05:11:34 PM
^That video has nothing to do with either side of the argument.
1. The train honks it's horn.
2. There are NO crossing arms or gates. Nothing malfunctioned this crossing has no barricade at all, which is insane.
3. The driver ignored the flashing lights and horn thinking she could beat the train, according to the local news station.
4. The driver was speeding.
Seems related. It's a video (from days ago) of what occurs every 90 minutes on U.S. railroads and the basis for the federal law that requires trains blow their horns. There are ways to set up a quiet zone but they cost money and aren't garaunteed. The most reliable thing to do is close the crossing.
Every crossing cannot be a separated grade crossing obviously; Although it's insane that FEC crossing on the Southbank near those hospitals isn't. IMO a simple train crossing buck with gate should be the minimum standard. There WILL be people that go around the gate, and crash with a train. You can't stop stupid...
The video seems to show that a barrier would be much more effective than a horn.
No need to guess on this stuff. Here is the study on whistle bans on the FEC. (PDF) http://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/1258
Did any of those crossings meet today's "Quiet Zone" standards?
https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0104 (https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0104)
Probably not as that standard is pretty new. It can be done but COJ has to put up the money.
Would residents be willing to have their neighborhood taxed more to cover the cost for a quiet zone?
I'd rather put my tax money towards a skyway extension first.
not me. I live less then a half mile from the train and I dont even notice it anymore.
Yeah, I tend to doubt it too. Too many other things we could do if we were going to be stuck with a tax.
Haha yeah right. Of course they wouldn't want to be taxed. "Make the city pay for it! Or the state!!" Wait....
Illinois DOT, FRA, Amtrak, Union Pacific did some joint studies on effective crossing guards in anticipation of HSR where grade seperation was not feasible.
They looked at the rising poles, cables, stronger arms, strobes and other items.
The rising poles were the most effective at stopping drive throughs. But found them to be maintenence intensive, especially in winter time where snow, ice and salt interfered with operation. The biggest problem was that they would fail in the upright position causing a traffic hazard.
A lattice of cables that are pulled up from the road was looked at until it was found to be lethal to motorcyclists.
Not tried but discussed was a rising solid barrier that comes up out of the road, not unlike a blast wall on an aircraft carrier. Cost was considered prohibitive.
They also tested the 4 quadrant arm and signal bar over the highway, this is the one that was chosen. Probably because it was the cheapest option that was compatible with RR signaling.
There has been some discussion on an extension of the use of PTC technology to provide better proximity signaling to the crossing guards so that they are not solely relying on a track based sensor. A sort of air traffic control for trains. This however would be expensive and since the local DOT would have to pay for it, probably not a near term option.
Having lived near railroads my whole life I have grown accustomed to hearing the horns. I have see them save lives on many occasions.
Having lived next to the Union Pacific west line out of Chicago that runs Metra trains by the hour, I have heard plenty of horns In my daily life. for those who are not initiated, it is true that you simply get used to them.
Tampa is stepping up to the plate to improve the quality of life for downtown residents. If someone has a choice between train noise and no train noise, which option is more appealing, all things equal? Jax has a lot of compelling neighborhoods close to downtown that easily trump Tampa's in terms of amenities and walkability, however, if there's excessive noise pollution then all this work going into urban renewal could be a mute point. This is a real issue, especially for the Jax downtown trains that travel at 5 mph and blasts their horns every 20 feet.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/tampa-could-spend-13-million-to-help-create-downtown-train-horn-quiet-zone/2229640 (http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/tampa-could-spend-13-million-to-help-create-downtown-train-horn-quiet-zone/2229640)
Once the Brooklyn Riverside apartments are complete I can see this issue gaining more traction. Some of those apartments are literally feet from the track. I can't imagine residents putting up with those horns for long. ALL HAIL THE QUIET ZONE! ;) :P
There probably isn't much train horn blowing near Brooklyn, as there are no highway / rail crossings near there - all overpasses.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on May 14, 2015, 09:07:24 PM
however, if there's excessive noise pollution then all this work going into urban renewal could be a mute point.[/url]
pun intended? 8)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 14, 2015, 10:08:44 PM
There probably isn't much train horn blowing near Brooklyn, as there are no highway / rail crossings near there - all overpasses.
Bingo, there aren't any crossings at all. So unless a train has stopped or is doing some other signaling there will be no horns.
DT Tampa also has a ton of more crossings (literally every block in DT) than the few in San Marco.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2015, 07:41:20 AM
DT Tampa also has a ton of more crossings (literally every block in DT) than the few in San Marco.
But they have a street running train.... which is awesome.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2015, 07:41:20 AM
DT Tampa also has a ton of more crossings (literally every block in DT) than the few in San Marco.
So you don't live in San Marco?
Not that it will help much, but I think the Gary Street crossing will be closed as part of the Overland Bridge project.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on May 16, 2015, 01:59:06 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2015, 07:41:20 AM
DT Tampa also has a ton of more crossings (literally every block in DT) than the few in San Marco.
So you don't live in San Marco?
Correct. However, I stay next door to FEC's Bowden Yard, so it's not like I'm immune to train noise either.