Life Without Parking Meters: Savannah
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5122-p1100905.JPG)
Another city is discovering how an urban retail district can come back to life with user friendly on-street parking. Why not Jacksonville?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/809
Im not sure what part of savannah this article is written about, but I most deffinatly had to put money in the meter when I took my wife there for a little weekend getaway. We had to find a place to park, put money in the 2 hour meter, walk around a little, come back put more money in the meter, go eat a Paula Deans place, go back, put more money in the meter, it was VERY aggravating.
I think 3 hours probably is too long, the meters themselves are the problem. Timed but meter-less spaces are the best solution. Easy to do too. Just place a bag over them and see how it goes. Lots of publicity beforehand to make sure people understand the change though. If it results in problems, just remove the bags. At least you will know if it will work or not.
Quote from: adamh0903 on June 04, 2008, 11:44:37 AM
Im not sure what part of savannah this article is written about, but I most deffinatly had to put money in the meter when I took my wife there for a little weekend getaway. We had to find a place to park, put money in the 2 hour meter, walk around a little, come back put more money in the meter, go eat a Paula Deans place, go back, put more money in the meter, it was VERY aggravating.
Free two hour parking is only allowed on Broughton Street, the historic district's main retail corridor. All of the other streets have smart meters. There's also a couple of small free three hour parking zones along the Riverfront.
Also, if you like to walk, park your car near Forsyth Park, on the south of downtown. those streets don't have meters either.
Having just relocated from downtown savannah, lived there only a year, I'm just not sure how much the lack of parking meters has contributed to the revitalization of Broughton street. I suspect there is a lot, much more signifcant factors causing the upswing. Savannah is filled with parking meters on all north south roads west of broughton. Oglethorpe, and Liberty the next two major N/S streets are lined with parking meters from MLK out to Price st. During the day there isn't hardly an empty parking spot. Plus all the east/west streets leading to bay street are lined with parking meters from liberty to I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, all the way to bay. All these streets are very vibrant, lots of businesses, cafes, clubs you name it teaming with pedestrian traffic. Of course the city has the good sense to ensure that you don't have to pay before 8 and after 5, parking is free. I think Savannah has more meter maids than cops. The meters are of all types from the ancient quaters to state of the art ones. Not necesarily saying parking meters are a good idea, but I think this article may oversell the results of removing them.
The major difference between Broughton and all the other streets is that Broughton (other than River Street) is the only one lined with a continuous string of retail spaces for several blocks. All of the other streets tend to be more mixed use with offices, corner retail, residential and religious uses.
I'll have to dig up my old images of Savannah, dating back to the mid 1990's. Back during my college days (late 90s) Broughton was littered with vacant retail spaces. While it may be difficult to notice a change within a year or two, looking back over the course of 7, 8, 9 or 10 years and the change is huge.
As for the article, we've been told that having parking meters helps downtown retail. However, reality is showing that more and more cities are bringing meter free streets back to their cores as a part of an effort to make them more user friendly.
Well I think Bay street is certainly lined with retail spaces, in fact there are photos of that on this site. I know Bull streeet is lined with shops and stores. Not sure what the problem would be with mixed use., would think that would be a very good idea. I know Oglethorpe and Liberty are lined with both commercial( mellow mushroom anyone) and residdential and misc buisnesse, certainly not unique. Mixed development I would think is what we would want, a place to live, eat and be entertained. As far as Broughton being the only street lined with a continuous string of retail space, I think bay, oglethorpe and Liberty woud disagree. The mix may be different but the streets are lively and active
QuoteWell I think Bay street is certainly lined with retail spaces, in fact there are photos of that on this site. I know Bull streeet is lined with shops and stores.
Bay is dominated by hotels to the south (with a few restaurants/bars slipped in), mostly park space/parking to the north and no on-street parking, although the city has done a great job with some of the newer garages, just south of Bay. Bull has retail, but not at the density of Broughton. After all, Broughton was Savannah's main retail strip before sprawl took over Abercorn.
QuoteNot sure what the problem would be with mixed use., would think that would be a very good idea. I know Oglethorpe and Liberty are lined with both commercial( mellow mushroom anyone) and residdential and misc buisnesse, certainly not unique. Mixed development I would think is what we would want, a place to live, eat and be entertained.
There's no problem with a mix of uses. However, having the option of free parking along your most dense retail strip certainly doesn't hurt, which has been suggested by the local parking guys here on several occassions. While free parking is not the end all solution, it is an element that makes retail more viable.
QuoteI know Oglethorpe and Liberty are lined with both commercial( mellow mushroom anyone) and residdential and misc buisnesse, certainly not unique. Mixed development I would think is what we would want, a place to live, eat and be entertained. As far as Broughton being the only street lined with a continuous string of retail space, I think bay, oglethorpe and Liberty woud disagree.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2352-p1000475.jpg)
here's an image of Mellow Mushroom I snapped last year. The rest of the block is not littered with the amount of retail that Broughton (below) contains. (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2371-p1000500.jpg)
QuoteThe mix may be different but the streets are lively and active
Of course they are. However, having free parking in front of the city's densest commercial strip is more beneficial for the small businesses there, as opposed to hotels on Bay or the lower density mix of uses on Oglethorpe or Liberty. Nevertheless, no one is claiming that Broughton is the only vibrant street in Savannah.
I apologize I missed this part of your response "As for the article, we've been told that having parking meters helps downtown retail. However, reality is showing that more and more cities are bringing meter free streets back to their cores as a part of an effort to make them more user friendly." I missed this part of your response. I guess my point is that the whole parking meter issue is a red herring, Parking meters don't deteremine your destination. Savannah is a GREAT response to that If you want to eliminate them in the core city, fine and dandy, but make sure that you have something that someone wants to visit in response. Savannah, is as dicy as any city when you get a few block off the main drag. Number oen rule, keep your head on a 360 swivel in the parks after dark. As bad as downtown is if you eliminated the parkin meters it wouldn't certainly change a whole lot. If you want to visit savannah they will pay the meter. The tragic situation is that no one wants to be downtown in jax, Don't trash me I remeber going to sears downtown, Yeah I know thats considered a bad moment, but the fact is the politicians did there best and thought that woud help salvage downtwon, and later spent my fair share in the silver dollar saloon ;)
"Of course they are. However, having free parking in front of the city's densest commercial strip is more beneficial for the small businesses there, as opposed to hotels on Bay or the lower density mix of uses on Oglethorpe or Liberty. Nevertheless, no one is claiming that Broughton is the only vibrant street in Savannah."
My apoloigies but this article read as though an amazing breakthrough was made on Broughten by just eliminating the parking meters. No other comments were made concerning previous owenrs possibly restrictiing redevelopment or even the citys zoning. My point is the article painted the redeveopment as a result of the removal of parking meters.
I think Downtown Jax has all the potential in the world if some little inexpensive things are done to let the free market take over. These would include:
1. Better Lighting
2. Wayfaring signage (both pedestrian and vehicular)
3. Conversion of some less traveled streets into two-way
4. Strict Building Code Enforcement
5. City of Jacksonville, stops playing developer, sitting on property and sells excess land
6. Installation of public parking garage signage
7. More investment in improving spaces like Hemming Plaza and Springfield Parks
8. Enforcement of Downtown Master Plan (especially in regards to building layout and design).
9. Removal of meters on retail dominated streets or installation of smart meters.
10. Making it tougher to demolish historic building stock.
Things won't change overnight, but efforts such as this would create a better environment for small businesses to strive.
Quote from: civil42806 on June 04, 2008, 10:10:56 PM
My apoloigies but this article read as though an amazing breakthrough was made on Broughten by just eliminating the parking meters. No other comments were made concerning previous owenrs possibly restrictiing redevelopment or even the citys zoning. My point is the article painted the redeveopment as a result of the removal of parking meters.
Sorry about that. Broughton Street's revitalization has definately not happened overnight and free parking alone will not pull people into a downtown core. However, for Jacksonville's sake, we are now seeing proof that free parking has more of a positive effect on urban retail than a negative. Greenville, SC's Main Street and Raleight's Fayetteville Street are also two other good examples that not dealing with meters can be beneficial in creating a vibrant atmosphere.
Then you need to say that, If you read the headline and the article, you'd think that just because the parking meters were remove that broughton flourishe, thats unfair to the readers.
QuoteThen you need to say that, If you read the headline and the article, you'd think that just because the parking meters were remove that broughton flourishe, thats unfair to the readers
I think its fine, if the readers read through the entire article. The story is not so much about Savannah as it is about defeating the idea that not having meters is a negative for downtown businesses. Savannah's Broughton Street could have easily been replaced with Greenville's Main Street and the point of the article would have still been made. Any potential misconception about the title and headline is easily eliminated by reading the entire article, especially the letter by our local parking guru stating the reason for meters and then seeing the Broughton Street images showing the exact opposite.
Hmmm how shall I say this nicely (I do mean nicely), utter rubbish. The article that was written and published certainly implied that the reason that Broughton street prospered was because the parking meters were eliminated. Maybe I'm wrong wont be the first time, but I'd like to hear others opinions
That's cool, every one is entitled to their opinions. I stand by mine that free parking has played a major role in retail returning to Broughton and that Jacksonville would stand to benefit from following suit.
Congratulations to the City of Jacksonville Parking Enforcement Division for keeping parking readily available on our downtown streets.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454128966_YT2HS-M-1.jpg)
There are two cars off in the distance though. Hopefully they are booted.
I find it hard to believe that having to feed a couple of quarters into a parking meter is what is keeping people from venturing to downtown retail. Paying twenty-five cents a half hour for parking does not break the bank, and if it does then you’re probably not going to be venturing downtown to shop anyway. Of all the cities I have lived in, Jacksonville has more downtown parking for cheap than anywhere else. Believe it or not, but Broughton Street used to look like the photo in the post above, and wasn't due to parking meters.
St. John’s Town Center does not need parking meters because it is not a “Town Centerâ€; it is a glorified shopping mall. People aren’t parking and abandoning their cars in front of retail stores for the entire day while they are at work, but they do that downtown instead of paying to park in the one of many cheap parking garages. If Jacksonville actually monitored the parking and handed out parking tickets this may help stop this. Changing the parking limit to three hours will have not affect on this problem, only make it worse. Unfortunately, the average Jacksonville resident is completely car dependent and completely lazy with the attitude “if I can’t park within ten feet of the front door of where I’m going . . . then I’m not goingâ€, or they just park illegally and get away with it.
The revitalization of Brought Street can be attributed to The Savannah College of Art & Design, the fact that the historic downtown is truly a work/live/play city environment, the city has a huge tourism influx and the crime that plagued that street for decades has been almost completely removed. When I lived there in the late 80’s early 90’s you possibly were taking your life in your hands by going to some blocks of Broughton Street.
The main problem I see with downtown Jacksonville, and maybe I’m missing the point, is the poor zoning codes and enforcement that have enabled the majority of retail and commercial businesses to move out of downtown and to the vast acreage of office parks, strip malls and pseudo town centers that have sprung up throughout the immense square miles we call Jacksonville over the years since the early 70’s. This poor zoning is a direct result of the City of Jacksonville annexing itself to the county back in the late 60’s, which spread its tax base, spending and general developmental control entirely to thin. Jacksonville is drowning in its own colossal footprint. Not only is this plaguing the downtown revitalization, but what has plagued Springfield for half a century. The city was never intended to grown south as soon and as fast as it did. In couple of decades there will be no distinction between Jacksonville, Orange Park, Middleburg, Green Cove Springs, Switzerland, Palatka and St. Augustine other than zip codes. Almost how there is no real distinction between Duval and St. John’s County.
Jacksonville is one gigantic sprawling amebic suburb with no end in site. Stop the madness people! Invest in downtown and bring a heart with a pulse back to Jacksonville. And an excuse my meandering train of thought above. I suffer badly from SADD disease . . . Severe Apathy of Downtown Dispossession.
I think what most people mean, is that if you are a couple minutes over then you will be sure to get a ticket. the parking police are like friggin vultures.
Welcome to true urban life!
Free on-street parking is great for business...unless you're in the parking garage business.
It seems to me that as long as downtown merchants are counting on customers arriving by car, they will continue to lose out to suburban malls and strip shopping centers with vast parking lots. Transit and lots of people using it is the answer. Get folks out of the cars, walking in our downtown, looking in the windows and shopping.
Trust me, I'm like most everyone else, I find meters to be an annoyance...especially if you end up having to go somewhere without having quarters in reserve to use. I'd love to not have to feed money into them...however, they're needed in a sense, in that they bring revenue to the city. Replacing them with signs for a time limited parking, I feel is the more friendly of choices...but then again, is the issue of losing the revenue that those darn meters bring in. Therefore, if the city got rid of them, that meter-free parking comes with a price...so...how would the city make up for the lost revenue?
According to Stephen... the money collected from the meters pays for the bureaucracy of metermaids and parking enforcement and does not bring revenue to the local government. Stephens rather convincing argument is somewhere on this site... :)
Here is the link...
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3245.0.html
That link does not have a statement, nor quote from the city that states the actual revenue generated, nor does it state what/where the revenue goes towards. That's what I'd like to know
QuoteCongratulations to the City of Jacksonville Parking Enforcement Division for keeping parking readily available on our downtown streets.
There are two cars off in the distance though. Hopefully they are booted.
Look at all those retail stores pictured hurting for business... oh wait there are none.
Downtown Jax has nothing comparable to Broughton St. - we do have smaller urban strips with nice stores IMO - 5 Points / St. Johns Ave Avondale / The San Marco strip and all have free parking available.
I just don't see how removing parking meters is going to revitalize downtown retail traffic if it has no retail stores.?
Would that not provide an incentive FOR the retail to come back, though? That, coupled with the existing residential, limited though it may currently be, would be beneficial, no?
Perhaps this is the link... I seem to remember Stephen or someone using numbers... :)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3159.0.html
Sorry, but maybe I'm missing it, but I still see no post where the figures for revenue and/or how or where they go....
A booming tax base DT would more than make up for a loss of revenue from parking meters and tickets. Increased property taxes, sales taxes, business licenses, etc. would easily dwarf whatever revenues that would be lost. And there is an expense to parking revenue collection, it's not all profit to begin with.
Never suggested it was all profit...and yes, it would certainly help if downtown were actually a thriving one...and if it were, then all that you mentioned would most certainly make up lost revenue from meters...but until then...what would? As I said, I'm not a supporter of meters, I hate them like everyone else...however, common sense says that in order to rid the city of them, something must take the place of the source of revenue they bring in. Without knowing how much that is, we can only speculate. It's easy to say get rid of them, but it's not always easy to find a reasonable replacement to replace the money generated from them.
Now if it having them, it costs more for enforcing, collecting, etc then getting rid of them is a reasonable solution. Personally, I can't imagine that it could be very much, as we don't have a booming downtown
Quotewould be beneficial, no?
Personally I don't think it's big deal... parking meters are mildly inconvenient. Also, the busiest retail days are during the weekend when parking is free downtown. Even during the week the meters are free after 6 when many could shop after work.
Even this hailed street in Savannah has its problems and inconveniences... the chances of finding parking on a busy strip like this is slim to none and you'll end up parking in a pay by the hour garage or a block or two off with metered parking.
I think JaxNative has a better understanding with
QuoteThe main problem I see with downtown Jacksonville, and maybe I’m missing the point, is the poor zoning codes and enforcement that have enabled the majority of retail and commercial businesses to move out of downtown and to the vast acreage of office parks, strip malls and pseudo town centers that have sprung up throughout the immense square miles we call Jacksonville over the years since the early 70’s.
Your right JBM... Lake, Ock or Stephen probably have the figures... Dont forget Shwaz... COJ wants to begin enforceing metered parking 24/7/365... :)
QuoteCOJ wants to begin enforceing metered parking 24/7/365
Horrible idea by the city as no one actually comes downtown on the weekends. There's no draw besides a few scattered bars and 10 weeks of football... which always cracked me up as I would park downtown at Forsyth and Newman St for free. The funny part being there was multiple pay lots ($15) all right next to my free on street parking.
Quote from: Shwaz on January 16, 2009, 01:06:07 PM
QuoteCOJ wants to begin enforceing metered parking 24/7/365
I would park downtown at Forsyth and Newman St for free. The funny part being there was multiple pay lots ($15) all right next to my free on street parking.
I did this for the Gator Bowl for the first time. It was awesome. However, I do like to tailgate for the Jags so I prob don't need to be drinking and cooking on the street :)
Quote from: BridgeTrollCOJ wants to begin enforceing metered parking 24/7/365... :)
That's total crap and shouldn't be allowed at all. Even the major cities don't enforce it like that.
Meters pay for parking enforcement and admin. Without meters we would still need enforcement of the time limits but no coin collection or meter maintenance. Enforcement and remaining admin would have to be paid for by taxes or fees. Therefore until the economy recovers we're probably stuck with meters.
Here is an idea. Convert all streets to diagonal parking wherever possible thereby doubling the number of available parking spots at least. Pull out all of the meters downtown and sell them for scrap. Then, fire 3/4 of the parking enforcement clowns. And finally, the remainder of the Parking Enforcement division would be charged with enforcing the new 2 hours of free on street parking rule. Free parking works everywhere else. Freedom can work downtown too.
BTW, the workers in San Marco and Riverside and Avondale do not park in front of their own stores (a common argument against allowing this). The reason is the 2 hour limits which exist there and they do not want to take up spots for their potential customers. So, in short, let people park where they want. When and if parking spot shortages become an issue, the free market will step in and some intrepid capitalist will come in and build a garage.
RG, I agree completely. Freedom is almost always my default position. I just don't see COJ giving up any revenue sources in the near future.