$75 Million Lawsuit Filed Against COJ and JEA
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2161798466_Lbv2hPx-L.jpg)
The City of Jacksonville and the Jacksonville Electric Authority (JEA) are being sued for $75 million by water savings technology company Fluid Dynamics. The suit charges the City and JEA with defamation, libel, slander and tortuous interference.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-mar-75-million-lawsuit-filed-against-coj-and-jea
This explains a lot.
We were in the process of getting one of the Fluid Dynamics units installed at the brewery then their sales rep went silent.
It would have saved us a lot of money because of the large amount of water we use.
What are they thinking? If they sell to you it hurts the case?
Cant help fund a pension liability if you sell less water to the constituency.
There is more to this it appears behind the scenes. I wonder if JEA/COJ has to put this out for bid of some kind.
Or they want to charge a "fee" to have it hooked up to make up for the reduced water flow.
What if Bacardi, InBev (Budweiser) and the other Top 100 industrial water consumers all used this technology?
Thats a major drop in revenue.
It definitely reduces JEA revenue.
The concept behind the technology is the it removes air in the water before it hits the meter.
We all pay for water and the air in it.
I remember the sales rep specifically saying JEA was cool with it and they had/were installing a unit at the large Goodwill complex on Lenox?.
Anything that reduces the income stream is bad, in their view. Conserve, and use less water and electricity, we'll jack your rates higher, so we get the same, or more revenue. If there is air in the lines, going through the meters, then we are paying for air, which is not correct.
Soo....it doesn't actually reduce water consumption (not sure how it would), it just eliminates water from the system so that your meter gives a reading that is more accurate (and 15-25% lower)? That's what I'm getting. I'm assuming this system is placed on JEA's side of the meter.
I'm sure the utility knows the efficiency of their water delivery system, and rates are set accordingly. If they were able to increase the efficiency, thereby dropping the reading on every meter, there would be a corresponding rate increase to account for that. The trouble would be if some locations have this system installed and others do not. Do you have two different rates? Or do you need to come up with a better water meter?
Forgive me if I am getting the physics of this system wrong, but it seems that you won't be reducing your water consumption (your brewing needs won't change just because your pipes are more efficient?), you will just be paying less for what you use? Or paying the same for higher consumption.
So if it doesn't reduce actual consumption of water, I don't see the incentive for JEA or COJ to be interested. Sounds like it just lowers the water bill of the users that can afford to install the system.
The lawsuit was filed 4 months ago . . . and the "news story" here is actually a press release issued by Fluid Dynamics. Makes one wonder how strong their legal position is if they need to resort to trying their case in the press. And, no, I'm not affiliated with any of the parties to the lawsuit. Just making an observation that press releases are designed to persuade, not inform ;)
Quote from: PeeJayEss on March 31, 2015, 09:19:14 AM
Soo....it doesn't actually reduce water consumption (not sure how it would), it just eliminates water from the system so that your meter gives a reading that is more accurate (and 15-25% lower)? That's what I'm getting. I'm assuming this system is placed on JEA's side of the meter.
I'm sure the utility knows the efficiency of their water delivery system, and rates are set accordingly. If they were able to increase the efficiency, thereby dropping the reading on every meter, there would be a corresponding rate increase to account for that. The trouble would be if some locations have this system installed and others do not. Do you have two different rates? Or do you need to come up with a better water meter?
Forgive me if I am getting the physics of this system wrong, but it seems that you won't be reducing your water consumption (your brewing needs won't change just because your pipes are more efficient?), you will just be paying less for what you use? Or paying the same for higher consumption.
So if it doesn't reduce actual consumption of water, I don't see the incentive for JEA or COJ to be interested. Sounds like it just lowers the water bill of the users that can afford to install the system.
I'm with you on this one.
But because 100 gal is 100 gal.... What if the test results of this system proves that we are all getting charged for using 115 to 120 gal?
The can of worms that will be opened would be astronomical and I'm not quite sure how JEA would be able to get out of it? Rebating all of their customers how far back for improper billing? WOW!
If JEA water has a 10% aeration rate, that means for every 100 gallons of water your meter detected, you actually only get 90 gallons after the aeration is removed.
After Fluid Dynamics takes the air out, you still get 100 gallons, but now JEA has to send you more water to make up for aeration losses. And since it is before the meter, JEA loses out on the revenue of the addtional water they normally would bill for. In this case a little less than 110 gallons worth.
So JEA has to send 110 gallons of water now and can only bill for 100.
JEA expenses go up to deliver what is (too them) less water.
As I noted above, this is a boon for industrial water users.
Quote from: spuwho on March 31, 2015, 03:38:35 PM
If JEA water has a 10% aeration rate, that means for every 100 gallons of water your meter detected, you actually only get 90 gallons after the aeration is removed.
After Fluid Dynamics takes the air out, you still get 100 gallons, but now JEA has to send you more water to make up for aeration losses. And since it is before the meter, JEA loses out on the revenue of the addtional water they normally would bill for. In this case a little less than 110 gallons worth.
So JEA has to send 110 gallons of water now and can only bill for 100.
JEA expenses go up to deliver what is (too them) less water.
As I noted above, this is a boon for industrial water users.
Goes back to the point I'm trying to make, though, and to the poster that asked, "Why use media?"
Because this could easily be spun as fraudulent billing. Not quite as bad as rigging meters, but still knowingly charging for less than you're supplying.
Should be interesting.
JEA could just install their own bulk aeration management system. Avoid Fluid Dynamics completely. They just havent been motivated to do so.
Its possible Fluid Dynamics has that and the press release/lawsuit is to force their hand.
If there are no other vendors who can do what FD does, then the lawsuit is to force a sales opportunity.
Quote from: spuwho on March 31, 2015, 03:38:35 PM
If JEA water has a 10% aeration rate, that means for every 100 gallons of water your meter detected, you actually only get 90 gallons after the aeration is removed.
After Fluid Dynamics takes the air out, you still get 100 gallons, but now JEA has to send you more water to make up for aeration losses. And since it is before the meter, JEA loses out on the revenue of the addtional water they normally would bill for. In this case a little less than 110 gallons worth.
So JEA has to send 110 gallons of water now and can only bill for 100.
JEA expenses go up to deliver what is (too them) less water.
As I noted above, this is a boon for industrial water users.
Id like to know how this thing works, does it use a compressor to force the air out? Water pressure? it would be interesting to see if JEA has a published aeration rate, if so the fraudulent billing argument might be a moot point.
Regardless, isn't there a $200k cap on what JEA or COJ can be sued for?
Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on March 31, 2015, 08:30:52 AM
It definitely reduces JEA revenue.
The concept behind the technology is the it removes air in the water before it hits the meter.
We all pay for water and the air in it.
I remember the sales rep specifically saying JEA was cool with it and they had/were installing a unit at the large Goodwill complex on Lenox?.
Took me a while to try and figure this out too. There website is horrible at least on my browser. Does anyone have any idea the percentage of air in JEA's water. The press release is a red flag in my mind also. From the description in the press release, it sounds like that the right hand in JEA may not have been aware of what the left hand was doing.
What does this system cost to have installed and what is the estimated payback period? Is it only for large water users or can the system be installed on residential properties?
If the system requires electrical power to operate a compressor then are you ultimately saving money by installing it?
Maybe the City, in their infinite lack of wisdom, heard the pitch from this company and thought they meant they would somehow be saving water. Then, after a trial period, they realized what this system actually does (which I imagine they could have found through a little bit of reading, or common sense) and decided it was pointless for them.
It certainly makes sense for industrial water users to want to do this, but it doesn't make any sense that they be effectively allowed to pay a lower rate for water than the huddled masses.
The problem I see with this if only few use it, then they have an advantage over those who do not. Those who do not will actually end up paying more due to an increasing cost of water (to make up for lost revenue)
Once everyone uses it, it turns into a disadvantage as the meter will indicate less cubic feet of water (sans the air in it), but the price per cubic foot will have to increase, so in the end every one probably pays the same with the additional cost of buying and owning the mirace device.
Can the same be said for electricity consumption, and those who can afford it buying solar collectors and building more energy-efficient homes?
Air removal technology has been around for a while, something that JEA should already know about and incorporate into their delivery system. Maybe JEA should be asked if they use this technology and if not, then be taken to task for delivering and charging for tainted product.
So this is kind of an interesting topic.
How much of what we're billed for is actually air? What do other utilities do, same thing as JEA or do they install the separators?
Quote from: IrvAdams on April 01, 2015, 05:07:23 PM
Can the same be said for electricity consumption, and those who can afford it buying solar collectors and building more energy-efficient homes?
No. If you install a solar array or get more energy efficient appliances, you are using less electricity from the utility. Your consumption actually drops.
In this case, you are simply removing air from the system just before your meter. Your consumption doesn't change, just the reading. Whatever the meter might read, you are being billed whatever JEA has decided it needs to charge for your actual consumption, into which it incorporates that air content and any losses throughout the system. You aren't being overcharged, as we are all being overcharged, and the rate itself already factors in the accuracy of the meter.
Also, water is pretty damn cheap. If homeowners can afford to dump so much of it onto their lawns and into pools, we're probably not charged enough for the stuff. I certainly don't want industrial users to be paying any less. Even if they are making delicious, golden suds.
From Folio's FB today:
http://folioweekly.com/NOT-A-FLUID-TRANSITION,13341
QuoteNOT A FLUID TRANSITION
They forged a relationship based on cost savings. Now a lawsuit filed by a water usage company could cost the city of Jacksonville millions
Posted: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:00 pm
by DEREK KINNER
The city and JEA have denied any wrongdoing, but officials decline to comment, referring those with questions to read recent court filings."
FOLIO COMMUNITY
Fluid Dynamics Holdings is a Delaware-based company that wants to save the residents of Jacksonville's apartment complexes thousands and thousands of dollars in water bills.
The city of Jacksonville and its Jacksonville Electric Authority, while initially supporting the effort, have now done everything they can to sabotage the project, Fluid officials say, including bribing a company that runs thousands of apartment units across the country and threatening contractors and even St. Johns County with severe repercussions if they continue to do work for or do business with Fluid Dynamics, according to a $75 million lawsuit filed in federal court in December.
At issue is the company's purported less-expensive water usage method for residents of apartment complexes in Jacksonville, as well as others who live in multi-residential communities, officials said. The system reduces water flow, which generally would lead to lower pressure, but Fluid Dynamics' technology is designed to maintain the same pressure while decreasing the amount of water consumed.
Despite the intentions of the design, the city and JEA decided the system was a hazard to safety (firefighting) and health. But they didn't decide that until well after initially approving it in 2012, even opening the water system for contractors to do the work. A burgeoning business and thousands and thousands of dollars saved in water bills went straight down the drain, the lawsuit says.
The city and JEA have denied any wrongdoing, but officials decline to comment, referring those with questions to read recent court filings.
"Due to the ongoing litigation, the documents that we filed with the court speak to the case and stand alone," says city public affairs officer Bill Spann. In their responses, the city and JEA denied all allegations cited by Fluid Dynamics in the lawsuit.
According to Fluid Dynamics, the company already had systems installed in about eight of 15 Jacksonville complexes run by Mid-America Apartment Communities Inc., which has a contract with Fluid for numerous complexes and have installed hundreds of others in MAA complexes elsewhere.
"Pursuant to the Lease Agreement, FLUID installed 564 Precision Flow System valves on 100 different MAA properties, including 8 MAA properties in Jacksonville, Florida," the lawsuit says. "JACKSONVILLE and the JEA were aware of the business relationship between FLUID and MAA and the installation of the Precision Flow System valves on the 8 MAA properties in Jacksonville ... MAA met with representatives of the JEA at MAA properties ... to discuss the Precision Flow System. Employees of the JEA opened utility vaults on MAA properties and permitted FLUID to assess and survey the plumbing and install the Precision Flow System."
But mistakes were made.
"In November 2012, MAA informed FLUID that the JEA had identified two Precision Flow Systems installed on fire lines at MAA properties," the lawsuit says. Fire lines, which require as much water pressure as possible, were not part of the deal.
Fluid Dynamics spokesman Jeff Weiner says the two sides met to discuss the mistake.
"They were aware that MAA had contracted and installed the systems. We got a call that there were two on fire lines on two different properties. We had a meeting with fire marshals, the city and JEA. It was a very collegial meeting. We presented an independent test of how our system works. If there was something installed, we were unaware, and we will take them off," Weiner says. "We were going to work together. They were interested and wanted to do further testing and so on. It was friendly.
"The next day we got blasted in the media."
In a First Coast News TV newscast on Dec. 4, 2012, city and JEA officials said Fluid Dynamics was putting apartment complex residents in danger by trying to trim water bills and lowering water pressure.
Fluid Dynamics saw that as a 180-degree turn they knew nothing about until the newscast. They also claim in the lawsuit that the defendants libeled their company and its efforts. And they question possible other motives in the new stance.
JEA saw that the new technology might cut into its revenues, which already were being raided by a city decision to use some of that money to help fund city pension shortfalls, Fluid Dynamics claims in the lawsuit. Though the city cited safety and health concerns for not allowing the new system's installation, Fluid says the real reason is that JEA revenues could have suffered.
So JEA pulled out the new equipment and that was that, until Fluid filed the suit.
Weiner says the defendants are violating the No. 1 rule for utility providers.
"All utilities are mandated to conserve," Weiner says. "Whether it's electricity or water. Our system services water. The difficult part is that utilities, like any other organization, want to make more money."
Fluid Dynamics ultimately lost its agreement with the city and then with MAA, a major client loss. Fluid Dynamics says the city and JEA paid off MAA to end its relationship with its company with an "incentive and subsidy package provided by JACKSONVILLE to MAA [that] included a contribution of $1,800,000 in infrastructure work and $5,150,000 in tax refunds."
Fluid Dynamics is not tucking tail and running. It's suing the city and JEA not just for blocking its installations, but for libel and slander and interfering with its business opportunities in St. Johns County.
The lawsuit argues Fluid, the city and JEA had agreed to let longtime Northeast Florida contractor W.W. Gay Mechanical Contractor Inc. test the system independently to determine if it was safe. But later, "JACKSONVILLE and the JEA threatened W.W. Gay, by stating that it would blackball W.W. Gay and take away future work from W.W. Gay if it worked with FLUID," the lawsuit says.
IT DIDN'T STOP THERE.
Fluid entered an agreement with St. Johns County to install its system on single residential homes as a test run, but, "When they learned of the burgeoning relationship between FLUID and St. Johns County, JACKSONVILLE and the JEA threatened to remove municipal and utility cooperation and assistance from St. Johns County if St. Johns County continued its business relationship with FLUID. Because St. Johns County heavily relies upon the JEA for utility support and services, St. Johns County terminated its business relationship with FLUID. It was the threats from JACKSONVILLE and the JEA which destroyed the business relationship between FLUID and St. Johns County."
St. Johns County officials have denied they terminated the agreement because of pressure from Jacksonville officials, saying they approved only one installation and did not plan on allowing more.
Weiner says the city and JEA have continuously stalled since the lawsuit was filed, denying requests for information they believe will bolster their case.
Other than written responses to the allegations in the complaint, the city has dragged its feet on providing Fluid Dynamics with documents and other information they think will support their case, he says.
"It's certainly been delayed by the city and the JEA," Weiner says. "They've been less than responsive on the discovery requests."