The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3914233437_wCqnmRF-L.jpg)
For over 140 years, East Bay Street was home to one of the largest shipbuilding operations on the east coast. Since 1992, this site has become known as a field where revitalization dreams come to die a bitter death. Here's a brief look at the site's past, present and possible future.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-mar-the-different-faces-of-the-jacksonville-shipyards
Special DIA Board meeting 3/6/15 at 9 am 1st floor city hall on Shipyards III. Also on the agenda a presentation on a NATIONAL DISTRICT for Downtown. Anyone going?
The big question is this: How many taxpayer dollars will go into this, directly or indirectly? Crony capitalism seems to be the only thing government knows anymore.
^Lol. Oh my, taxpayer dollars oh my!! Why can't we just have nice things for free? You mean to tell me nice things cost a lil dough? You mean we have one of the lowest tax rates in the country yet we want nice things, who would've thunk it.
I know there are people for and against this plan. I know some people think it should be organic and developed in small increments. I know that like Redbaron616 some are only worried about taxpayers dollars. But here is the truth. If this doesn't get done we may NEVER see this land developed. And if it's developed organically over a period of time it may be decades before it's developed and/or completed.
As pointed out in this post there have been two other major plans for this site, yet we have NEVER seen or HEARD about someone wanting to develop a small portion of it. (Or at least to my knowledge it has never been talked about.) We are going into year 23 since the shipyards closed for good and it's still an empty lot in a city that wants to be taken seriously. Yet we can't seriously get this area done.
I feel this property HAS to be developed or downtown will continue to suffer.
I read that Connie Benham who is running for a position in the City Council for District 6 doesn't feel what Khan is proposing will draw people from the Southside. She thinks it needs a roller coaster or Ferris Wheel. Years ago we rejected Disney and Busch but now we feel we need a "Carnival" on the river? I really don't care that she's concerned that this project won't draw people from Southside. They have ample amenities anyway.
I'm not saying that it won't be important to draw people from all parts of town but that shouldn't be the MOST important thing.
Like it or not Khan has very deep pockets and I'm sure a lot of connections that could likely get this done. But more than anything this guy wants this to happen NOW not in another 23 years.
Whether you love or hate the proposal, whether you are horrified that some taxpayers money may be involved or whether you are person who hates the idea of a major project, the city has done a HORRIBLE job of promoting this site. The movers, shakers and politicians of this city have never put enough effort to promote the idea of developing this site or maybe, just maybe something would have been started by now. (At least the perception is they have done a terrible job. Or maybe they have done a terrible job of selling the great things we all know about our city. It appears Khan has figured this out himself. And this project would be great for his business. Either way he sees the importance of it.)
Each time a plan has been proposed these same three objections have been raised and since 2000 going into year 15 NOTHING has happened at the site. (I am aware some site prep has been done.)
This is by far our best chance of getting this wonderful site improved. I just hope the politics and "concerned taxpayers" of Jacksonville don't ruin this.
Quote from: Marle Brando on March 06, 2015, 09:48:57 AM
^Lol. Oh my, taxpayer dollars oh my!! Why can't we just have nice things for free? You mean to tell me nice things cost a lil dough? You mean we have one of the lowest tax rates in the country yet we want nice things, who would've thunk it.
This could very well be the reason our downtown looks the way it does. It's a sea of empty lots or abandoned foundations. Or better yet long gone buildings turned into parking lots.
If Khan develops the Shipyards, it will be organic and developed incrementally. Outside of the Jags component and the USS Adams, it's been mentioned that it will be built based on what the market can support. So what actually pops up on the site will be different from what was shown in the renderings a few weeks back. Plus, looking at their site plan, they've pretty much carved the property into a bunch of smaller parcels and building pads that can be developed by different parties. That's basically what many have been saying the city should do.
^^ Under no circumstances will this site be developed quickly. And as for Khan's deep pockets, he isn't putting any of his own money in this to amount to anything. Frankly the city WOULD be better off letting this site site fallow, if it means they will instead do what is more important and achievable. That being invigorating the Landing-Laura corridor and implementation of the JEA/Healthy Town site plans (which is already re-mediated).
Downtown was successful before WITHOUT even one retail store, resident or office on the Shipyards site. It can be so again. For decades JAX has been trying to revive the Northbank, Southbank, LaVilla, Brooklyn, Cathedral district, Shipyards and Sports district all at once. That is one big reason why NONE of them has succeeded. Concentrate on one or at most two of those, and let the rest wait for another day.
Khan's plan is a pie in the sky dream that even he is not backing financially. It is fools gold.
What Khan is proposing is hardly any different than what Denver did with Denver Union Station or San Francisco has done with the Transbay District. The city either creates a master development entity (in SF's case with the Transbay Joint Powers Authority) or selects an experienced master developer (as in Denver's case with East West Partners), but many groups invariably come in to develop sites, either in partnership with the master developer, or the master developer preps the land and/or creates the legal framework and then sells the land to other developers. Often times fees and land sales from the city go towards something - in SF's case, the Transbay Terminal. In Denver's case, Denver Union Station.
It's very akin to an MPC (Master Planned Community), which is what groups like Howard Hughes and Lennar do. Lennar's doing essentially the exact same thing in San Francisco both with Hunters Point (former shipyards) and Treasure Island (former naval station on an island in the middle of the bay).
The difference between Khan and TBJPA, EWP, Lennar, HHC, and others is that the latter group are all experienced and this is what they do. In Khan's case, this is not what he does. However, sadly, there seems to be nobody else in the city with the capability, even if they have the development expertise.
The difference, financially, for the city of Jax and the other cities where this sort of thing occurs is that incremental tax dollars, land sales, etc often are used to pay for some large public component. E.g. a major transit station or public works project, central park, etc. In Jacksonville's case, the city kind of almost gets nothing, not even the incremental tax dollars.
However, I guess beggars can't be choosers. As this article points out, candidly, there have been so many attempts on this site and so many proposals. All by groups without the experience or capability, though I thought the Spences signed on a decent sized hedgy and I thought one proposal was essentially by WCI, which owned Landmar, a large FL developer of condos (which didn't they go bankrupt?).
Maybe a waterfront urban farm until things in this city change. I hear it all over the city from alot of wealthy people and most of them poo poo the idea of going downtown due to fears of all kinds of bullshit and i just dont see there being enough people getting their butts down there any time soon and especially putting their money into investments down there. Hopefully as our younger citizens age they will pick up the ball because the GOB system in this city has killed it.
Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on March 06, 2015, 03:00:03 AM
The Different Faces of the Jacksonville Shipyards
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3914233437_wCqnmRF-L.jpg)
For over 140 years, East Bay Street was home to one of the largest shipbuilding operations on the east coast. Since 1992, this site has become known as a field where revitalization dreams come to die a bitter death. Here's a brief look at the site's past, present and possible future.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-mar-the-different-faces-of-the-jacksonville-shipyards (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-mar-the-different-faces-of-the-jacksonville-shipyards)
What a wonderful picture. This was during my lifetime, but it seems so long ago that I hardly recognize that area.
IMO maritime/industrial areas like the old shipyards aren't the most aesthetic pleasing to the eye areas to see. IMO almost all of the 'would be' shipyards projects had better blending foliage resembling Jacksonville moreso than Khan's Naples-inspired tropical palm tree mania.
^I know it's a matter of opinion but imo Khans plan is the best of any previous plans. The high rises of the plans before offered minimal retsil, and public access to the property. By this access, I mean with Khans plan the public and private can freely maneuver and navigate the grounds with minimal interruption of public flow access. And NOTHING in Naples resembles anything in his proposal, not even close. If anything, the SJTC resembles Naples. And I can't understand the palm tree hate, I mean we do live in Florida albeit north Florida. Have any of the palm complainers even payed attention to how the walkways weave thru and under buildings thus providing shade. Also the way the buildings are positioned shields sunlight when the sun is at its most brutal point. Look again and study the suns positioning to the property. To me it was brilliant.
Trilegacy's wasn't bad. Other than the football component, Khan's nearly copies it (ex. number of hotel rooms, residential units, office square footage, etc.). It's just hard trying to dig up 2001 graphics in 2015.
Quote from: Marle Brando on March 08, 2015, 03:33:42 PM
^I know it's a matter of opinion but imo Khans plan is the best of any previous plans. The high rises of the plans before offered minimal retsil, and public access to the property. By this access, I mean with Khans plan the public and private can freely maneuver and navigate the grounds with minimal interruption of public flow access. And NOTHING in Naples resembles anything in his proposal, not even close. If anything, the SJTC resembles Naples. And I can't understand the palm tree hate, I mean we do live in Florida albeit north Florida. Have any of the palm complainers even payed attention to how the walkways weave thru and under buildings thus providing shade. Also the way the buildings are positioned shields sunlight when the sun is at its most brutal point. Look again and study the suns positioning to the property. To me it was brilliant.
I agree that Khan's plan is generally one of the best, if not the best Shipyard plan, but I don't like the foliage. I'm fine with subtropical foliage like sabal palms, oaks etc, but not foliage that isn't native the Northern Florida (coconut palms, royal palms etc). Look at St Augustine which has a rich history, do you see any tropical trees from South Florida there? Most of those other failed Shipyards plans had a nice touch of different shade trees, with a good hint of local sabal palms (not overdone); I wish that Khan would implement a landscaping plan like those others.
Give it a rest I-10 your hatered of SF is showing big time. It was just a rendering. Those palm will not grow in North Florida. My goodness!!!!
^^^Nope, I don't hate South Florida, despite many of them hating on Jacksonville (I witnessed many experiences of that). One of my best friends is from MIA, and I took him to the 2014 Phins game at EverBank Field. So you're saying that those tropical trees (if wholly shipped to Jax) would die, and cannot withstand the colder temps? I hope that's the case, and Khan goes with significantly cheaper subtropical substitutes.
I know that many times people are tired of my past takes; I only brought up this 'palm talk' because I liked the other failed proposals landscaping (on this thread) better than Khan's landscaping. Someone disagreed with me and responded to my post, then I responded to that post. Believe me, I'm not the one to like beating a dead horse, unlike you Keith and many that say "Blah blah blah (obviously much larger city) is far more advanced than lowly Jacksonville.
Any updates?
Not quite sure we're at the point of debating species of palm trees and foliage but I like the enthusiasm that this will get done! ;D
Quote from: Noone on April 13, 2015, 05:55:25 AM
Any updates?
the deadline for submittals is April 29th. At that time, the DIA can start the process of vetting each proposal and picking a winner.
What is going on with the Shipyards?
Any news on the development proposal, cleanup, timeline, etc.?
Quote from: billy on July 29, 2015, 08:42:10 AM
What is going on with the Shipyards?
Any news on the development proposal, cleanup, timeline, etc.?
In a long standing Jacksonville tradition, nothing is going on.
So, the first $450,000 environmental study revealed that the site is contaminated beyond acceptable levels, and could not accurately assess the full scope or price of a cleanup without follow-up studies. This was almost two months ago. Does anyone know if anything has happened since then? The city has $300k in the coffers for additional investigation, with another $13 million set aside for cleanup. Is there any urgency?
Quote from: KenFSU on July 29, 2015, 09:25:03 AM
So, the first $450,000 environmental study revealed that the site is contaminated beyond acceptable levels, and could not accurately assess the full scope or price of a cleanup without follow-up studies. This was almost two months ago. Does anyone know if anything has happened since then? The city has $300k in the coffers for additional investigation, with another $13 million set aside for cleanup. Is there any urgency?
I believe that Curry has $0 in his budget this year for cleanup, but $17.5 million planned for next year. So in theory, the cleanup of the site should start either later this year or next year, but I don't know how long it takes to cleanup a site that size.
^Thanks for the info!
DIA still says that talks with Khan are productive and moving forward. But they won't say anything else. Rumor is that Lamping is sounding less excited than he has in the past. Horse trading...
Quote from: KenFSU on July 29, 2015, 09:25:03 AM
So, the first $450,000 environmental study revealed that the site is contaminated beyond acceptable levels, and could not accurately assess the full scope or price of a cleanup without follow-up studies. This was almost two months ago. Does anyone know if anything has happened since then? The city has $300k in the coffers for additional investigation, with another $13 million set aside for cleanup. Is there any urgency?
That study seems expensive to not give cleanup project pricing and scope indications. Didn't we already know it was contaminated? We paid nearly half a million to confirm it was contaminated without getting some cost estimates?
^^^Yea, smells fishy. Who does these studies?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on July 29, 2015, 12:30:39 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on July 29, 2015, 09:25:03 AM
So, the first $450,000 environmental study revealed that the site is contaminated beyond acceptable levels, and could not accurately assess the full scope or price of a cleanup without follow-up studies. This was almost two months ago. Does anyone know if anything has happened since then? The city has $300k in the coffers for additional investigation, with another $13 million set aside for cleanup. Is there any urgency?
That study seems expensive to not give cleanup project pricing and scope indications. Didn't we already know it was contaminated? We paid nearly half a million to confirm it was contaminated without getting some cost estimates?
I'm not sure how much that sort of thing
should cost, but they did a bit more than just confirm the site was contaminated. Soil samples were taken and we have a (slightly fuzzy) map here (http://www.news4jax.com/news/shipyards-soil-contamination-may-alter-development-plan/33482236) showing where the contamination is above acceptable levels.
This WOKV article (http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/preliminary-shipyards-assessment-shows-widespread-/nmYck/) also sheds some light on why they didn't give a cost estimate:
QuoteRobinson says until they have a firm plan for the site development, he is not able to say how much remediation will cost and how long it could take. In part, that's because the different standards for residential and commercial use mean different levels of remediation needed.
"It would not be financially prudent to just go out and remediate 100% of the site," he says.
Of the potential steps which could be taken for remediation, Robinson says that's also subject to the final plan, but they have a few ideas.
"A cover of some depth and material type, or in some cases excavation and removal from the site," he says.
These findings are expected to firm up by the end of the month for the final report which will be submitted to the Department of Environmental Protection.
That last line also makes it sound like a final report should have been filed by the end of June.
Shipyards contamination map
(http://www.news4jax.com/image/view/-/33471020/highRes/1/-/w/640/-/drs3p0/-/Arsenic-Shipyards-jpg.jpg)
A very small bit of news today courtesy of this tweet (https://twitter.com/vitostellino/status/626798820857409536): "Lamping said he hopes to open talks with new mayor Leonard Curry over the Shipyard project to start in month or so."
QuoteMayor Curry: Shad Khan's Shipyards proposal has to make 'financial sense' for Jacksonville
Mayor Lenny Curry said Thursday that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's Shipyards proposal is an important deal for Jacksonville, but has to make "financial sense" for the city.
Khan unveiled his Shipyards proposal at a news conference last February, but talks have been slowed because of the mayoral election, among other factors. Curry, who took over July 1, seems ready to move forward now that he has submitted his budget to the City Council.
Khan's proposal is a private-public partnership that will cost hundreds of millions of dollars on 48 acres of city owned property on the Northbank of the St. Johns Rivers that will bridge EverBank Field and the sports complex to downtown Jacksonville.
"It's an important deal," Curry said after he spoke at a news conference at EverBank Field dealing with providing full-time athletic trainers at Duval County high schools. "We' re going to figure it out. Look, it's got to be a deal that's good for the taxpayers, that's good for the organization, that's good for Jacksonville and that's what we're working toward."
He said he will be personally involved in the negotiations.
"We'll have to work the on the specifics," Curry said. "That's a conversation with the deal makers, with the negotiators, that's me, and with the citizens of Jacksonville. My metrics on any deal that will be a private public partnership — it has to be good for Jacksonville and have metrics that give the taxpayers a return."
The Jaguars have not revealed how much money they are willing to put in the project and how much they are looking for the city to contribute. That will probably be a key point in the negotiations.
"I think that Shad Khan and what the Jaguars bring to this city is a tremendous asset," Curry said.
"You have to leverage all the assets you have, particularly those that get the highest return. I want to get it done, but it has to make sense. It's got to make financial sense. There's a lot of negotiations to go in the months ahead. We've got a great working relationship [with the Jaguars]. I'm looking toward a win-win for everyone."
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/2015-07-30/story/mayor-curry-shad-khans-shipyards-proposal-has-make-financial-sense
Someone I'd mentioned the Shipyards project to told me about Victor Civita Square (Praça Victor Civita) in Sao Paulo and shared this link from ArchDaily (http://www.archdaily.com/199090/victor-civita-plaza-levisky-arquitetos-associados/). It sounds like an interesting way to approach a contaminated site, and it looks great, too.
I'm not sure how contaminated that site was in comparison to what we have on our hands at the Shipyards, but this sounds like a great way to adapt the design to the contamination of the Shipyards site.
QuoteThe project was launched in 2006, when the local government and Editora Abril established a partnership in order to enable the renewal of the site. Like other post-industrial areas, the existing site was degraded and polluted exemplifying the urban challenge most metropolises now have to face.
Conscious of this issue Anna Dietzsch, in association with Levisky Arquitetos Associados, proposed a design that remediates the contamination and proposes a sustainable solution, incorporating social political, cultural and environmental elements into a productive design.
A deck of certified, recycled Brazilian hardwood sits above the site, supported by steel structure, to minimize contact with the contaminated soil. Like the frame of a ship, the deck unfolds between the horizontal and vertical in a curve, creating places that are defined by the three-dimensionality of the form, great urban rooms that invite public use.
I've had a difficult time finding info on their site it in English, but I let Chrome translate (from Portuguese) some of the pages under the Revitalization section of their site (http://pracavictorcivita.org.br/revitalizacao/) to get more info:
QuoteAreas of recycling
Between 1949 and 89, the land that houses the Victor Civita Square was a warehouse and processing center of home and hospital waste. After disabling the incinerator Pinheiros, the area was occupied by recycling cooperatives, which remained on the ground until the end of 2006. As a result of this process, especially by the release of waste not destroyed in the burning of materials, the soil was contaminated by traces of dioxins, furans and heavy metals such as lead, aluminum and zinc, pollutants that can only be dispelled by the nature of the action over the centuries.
When the Abril Group and its partners have undertaken to promote the rehabilitation of the former incinerator of the land for public use, the Secretary of Green and Environment of the City of São Paulo, CETESB and GTZ conducted studies and surveys on site, which culminated the Terms of Reference for Recovery of Degraded Areas.
It was found, then the possibility of adding a layer of 50 cm of soil for monitoring contamination processes, isolating dangerous points and build protective surfaces - were more than 3500 cubic meters of cleared land around the ground.
Currently a deck legalized wood in three different Brazilian species (ipe, garapa and sucupira) delimits the tour of the square, preventing passers-by have direct contact with the soil of degraded areas.
For further study, CETESB maintains the woods a place for the demonstration surveys, polls and monitoring of soil and groundwater.
QuoteSustainability and Innovation
A pioneering initiative in Latin America, the architectural design of the Victor Civita Square aims to inspire reflection about the environmental degradation condition of the space in which it was deployed.
To prevent visitors to have contact with the soil degraded areas, built up a large deck wood legalized and alveolar slab. Displays information distributed by the deck allow the visitor to understand all the environmental revitalization techniques used in the project, appropriate rules techniques regarding accessibility.
The architecture also includes a series of sustainable measures such as lighting LEDs (more durable than ordinary light bulbs) and rainwater recycling system. Your landscape design consists of different plant species with bodily functions, herbal or likely to use in the production of biofuels.
The Square of architectural design is the responsibility of Levinsky Architects, with architects Adriana Levinsky and Anna Julia Dietzsch. The structures were designed by Cia projects under the responsibility of the engineer Heloisa Maringoni.
In addition to the photos on the ArchDaily site, there's a great photo gallery here (http://pracavictorcivita.org.br/galeria-de-fotos-da-praca/).
Quote from: thelakelander on July 31, 2015, 06:16:52 AM
QuoteMayor Curry: Shad Khan's Shipyards proposal has to make 'financial sense' for Jacksonville
Mayor Lenny Curry said Thursday that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's Shipyards proposal is an important deal for Jacksonville, but has to make "financial sense" for the city.
Khan unveiled his Shipyards proposal at a news conference last February, but talks have been slowed because of the mayoral election, among other factors. Curry, who took over July 1, seems ready to move forward now that he has submitted his budget to the City Council.
Khan's proposal is a private-public partnership that will cost hundreds of millions of dollars on 48 acres of city owned property on the Northbank of the St. Johns Rivers that will bridge EverBank Field and the sports complex to downtown Jacksonville.
"It's an important deal," Curry said after he spoke at a news conference at EverBank Field dealing with providing full-time athletic trainers at Duval County high schools. "We' re going to figure it out. Look, it's got to be a deal that's good for the taxpayers, that's good for the organization, that's good for Jacksonville and that's what we're working toward."
He said he will be personally involved in the negotiations.
"We'll have to work the on the specifics," Curry said. "That's a conversation with the deal makers, with the negotiators, that's me, and with the citizens of Jacksonville. My metrics on any deal that will be a private public partnership — it has to be good for Jacksonville and have metrics that give the taxpayers a return."
The Jaguars have not revealed how much money they are willing to put in the project and how much they are looking for the city to contribute. That will probably be a key point in the negotiations.
"I think that Shad Khan and what the Jaguars bring to this city is a tremendous asset," Curry said.
"You have to leverage all the assets you have, particularly those that get the highest return. I want to get it done, but it has to make sense. It's got to make financial sense. There's a lot of negotiations to go in the months ahead. We've got a great working relationship [with the Jaguars]. I'm looking toward a win-win for everyone."
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/2015-07-30/story/mayor-curry-shad-khans-shipyards-proposal-has-make-financial-sense
I find this really encouraging. I think Khan can probably bring some real value to the project, but it needs to make sense for the city. We shouldn't be in a situation where we pay a billionaire for the privilege of letting him take our public land away.