Quote
An activist group has announced plans to speak out against the possibility of a property tax increase to pay for Mayor John Peyton’s Jacksonville Journey anti-crime plan.
The local chapter of Americans for Prosperity will protest at the Journey’s community meeting at the Florida Community College South Campus, Wilson Center for the Arts, 11901 Beach Blvd. The meeting begins at 6:30 p.m. but the public is invited at 5:30 p.m. to learn more about the plan.
Coordinator Jeff Hunt said his group is not against the anti-crime plan, but questions the need for a millage increase to pay for it.
City officials project Jacksonville Journey would cost $36.2 million next year. The plan, and a possible tax increase, have not been adopted.
looks like this was earlier tonight.
from their website...
Quote
Voters statewide overwhelmingly approved Amendment 1, forcing local governments to cut property taxes. However, despite the fact that a majority of residents supported Amendment 1, the Jacksonville City Council has not gotten the message that its citizens are over-taxed.
First, the City Council created three new 'fees' to recoup all of the revenue lost in property tax cuts. Now, they're talking about raising property taxes!
The Jacksonville Journey (an unelected body of bureaucrats and former elected officials) is going to recommend that the Jacksonville City Council raise the millage rates, increasing your property taxes drastically.
Our economy is shaky and the real estate market is hurting; we simply cannot afford any new taxes!
Please use the box below to write your own strongly worded message to the Jacksonville City Council and Mayor Peyton, telling them that you do not want your property taxes to increase.
The message will also go to the members of the Jacksonville Journey.
Also, make sure to join us at the Jacksonville Journey meeting on Thursday May 29th at 5pm. Click here for more details
Yup. Jacksonville needs higher property taxes. To support the fine services offered to its residents.
Fine, fine services indeed. :)
I would be willing to pay more taxes to have cops walking a beat in my neihgborhood. I would not be willing to pay for more cops sitting outside Eureka Gardens though, or not answer my calls because they are alwasy at Lincoln Court, or to sit at Hemming Plaza during the weekdays. Mkae these aparment complex owners pay a special tax to pay for the police who are spending the majority of their time at these places anyway!
I agree there's room for efficiency improvments at the po po department. At my office I have to juggle 2 or 3 things at a time. I'd love to just sit and wait for my phone to ring before I had to do anything. Is there any room for improvement in the other city departments before we raise taxes? HUH?????????????
If the taxes are for Police, Education or good mass transit count me in. If they are for some developer to make a strip mall for a new sprawl mart count me out.
Quote from: Driven1 on May 29, 2008, 09:16:16 PM
from their website...
Quote
Voters statewide overwhelmingly approved Amendment 1, forcing local governments to cut property taxes. However, despite the fact that a majority of residents supported Amendment 1, the Jacksonville City Council has not gotten the message that its citizens are over-taxed.
No they didn't, especially in Jacksonville, where I believe it was a 60-40 vote against Amendment 1. If the Devil's gonna quote scripture, at least he double checks his source first.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 30, 2008, 10:55:02 AM
If the taxes are for Police, Education or good mass transit count me in. If they are for some developer to make a strip mall for a new sprawl mart count me out.
And there's the crux of the issue. We always complain about the high crime in our area, but the real problem is that income and quality of life disparities are enormous, and until we figure out how to address those economic problems and the social problems associated with them, we will never be happy with our government. Start with the source, not the symptom. High crime is a symptom, so find the cause(s) and deal with that. In all reality, if we're not happy with the government, we really have no one to be upset at but ourselves. We elect them, year after year, and then fail to address the issues that really get us up in arms when it comes to election time.
Think of everything that really has an impact on our quality of lives: safety, education, economic stability, health, and the availability of "amenities" (both natural and man-made). Can lower taxes help any of this on the grand scale?
If you even thought about answering yes to that question, then you've got some pretty heavy reading to do...
When it comes to the bottom line, government is an agreement by all of us to hold each other accountable, to legislate for a division of labor that allows each of us to do what we do best, and to enjoy the stability of strength in numbers. I've been making this argument on the State University System ever since the tax cut was proposed: Tuition in this state is in the bottom ten in the country and so is the quality of our educational institutions. The wonderful legislators in Tallahassee are convinced that any increase in tuition is like levying a new tax, so they gripe and moan and make the universities raise their fees, accomplishing the same thing that a tuition hike would've done, but without making the capitol look bad in the press. Sounds mighty similar to the new fees if you ask me... They didn't really accomplish anything other than passing the buck to the local governments, imposing new regulations on counties and cities, and further exerting their supremacist authority over everyone, further destroying our beloved home-rule doctrine that kept North Florida from becoming New Miami....
So what am I saying? DUH! Stop looking as the meager taxes we pay as bad, and start looking at them as an investment. You pay a couple grand in property taxes every year, but because of that, the girl behind the counter at Publix can read, write and calculate your total if need be, the teller at your bank can speak coherently, and your kids can 'learn' in a positive environment for basically the cost of a postage stamp in comparison to the value of such knowledge. Because of taxes, the regressive sales tax, the formerly progressive property tax and the under-utilized payroll tax, you can go to the Northbank and walk on the Riverwalk, you can enjoy the Jags play in our beautiful stadium, and you can go see Kenny Chesney play at the Arena. Because of our taxes, the family down the street has money to feed their three kids, your grandmother can afford (almost) her medications, and Joe Shmoe from Kokomo can pay his rent after being laid off by Bankrupt, Inc.
Quote from: gatorback on May 29, 2008, 09:34:12 PM
Yup. Jacksonville needs higher property taxes. To support the fine services offered to its residents.
So if you're not happy with the way things are run or services are provided, suggest a new way to do it, and don't take no for an answer. Bureaucracy is designed to slow the process down so the politicians can't pull a fast one on us meager citizens, even though they try regularly.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 30, 2008, 10:55:02 AM
If the taxes are for Police, Education or good mass transit count me in. If they are for some developer to make a strip mall for a new sprawl mart count me out.
That’s an institutional culture issue. Imaginative innovation is not exactly consistent with the traditionalist political culture in Jacksonville. How do we fix that? Show people the value of 'planned progress', and not just the master-planned crap springing up everywhere, but actual, sustainable, livable development that draws in not just families, but citizens that will be active in our community and contribute to the commonwealth that Jacksonville so desperately needs to survive.
Maybe I'm an idealist, maybe I'm just naive, and maybe I'm just too much of both to really make an impact. But maybe I’m right... I sure as hell hope I am.
Quote from: chris
So if you're not happy with the way things are run or services are provided, suggest a new way to do it, and don't take no for an answer. Bureaucracy is designed to slow the process down so the politicians can't pull a fast one on us meager citizens, even though they try regularly.
I've got one thing to say about that. Corrine Brown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrine_Brown
A model politician if I may say so myself.
In particular, read: Ethics involving daughter :D
chris - to quote the Dead Milkmen, "You'll fall for anything."
OH, THE MAYOR SAYS WE CAN'T CUT ANYTHING. THERE IS NO WASTE IN GOVERNMENT. THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO RAISE OUR TAXES!! I'M 100% BEHIND YOU MR. MAYOR.
it truly is ridiculous how much this "Republican" mayor has raised taxes when he ran on a strong "no raise in the taxes" platform in 2003.
gatorback - one thing about Corrine, "She deliva!" ;)
PS Chris...i had to add this. I think that you ARE an idealist. It is romantic and novel, but not realistic. As you begin to live in the real world and it is your money that they are wasting, you may find yourself becoming a little less idealistic and a little more realistic.
1) Switch to bio-D. Austin Fire depot did it and gave the city back $1M hard. Give me a break.
2) No more big trash pick ups. You got shit that large, get it to the dump yourself.
3) 1 Dump truck followed by a smaller truck for down town trash pick ups? F that.
Drivenl: I love me some corrine. She taught me to Get while the gett'n is good. ;)
I'll never forget that Billboard with her on it in that fur. ROFLMA
Quote from: Driven1 on May 30, 2008, 01:39:24 PM
chris - to quote the Dead Milkmen, "You'll fall for anything."
OH, THE MAYOR SAYS WE CAN'T CUT ANYTHING. THERE IS NO WASTE IN GOVERNMENT. THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO RAISE OUR TAXES!! I'M 100% BEHIND YOU MR. MAYOR.
It's not that I'll fall for anything, its that I don't think cutting taxes is sound fiscal policy. I'm not a fan of the current system, but I also understand the bigger picture. In fact, the mayors of this city for the last decade have pretty much doomed us to living in urban sprawl for the next fifteen years, to say nothing of the lingering QOL issues that plague us. Jacksonville is just a microchasm in the grand failing social system that is this country, and realizing that it doesn't have to be this way is the basis of my post.
it is awesomely fantastic and superb how those who pay zero or very little of the taxes LOVE to raise the taxes of those actual taxpayers and then dictate how that money is spent.
chris, one day you will understand if you ever own property in Duval to any large degree. it is utterly disgusting how frivolously they throw away your hard earned money. we are talking about thousands and thousands and thousands of YOUR dollars - that is just wasted and thrown about.
you will also soon find that your money is used to finance frivolous law suits, welfare from those who know how to work the system (see the ever-popular bumpersticker that reads "Keep working hard. My welfare check depends on you."), to finance cops who have a code of secrecy where they can do no wrong and that pays for dispatchers who are truly THE CREAM OF THE CROP and cops who take 52 minutes to get to a burglary in progress.
it is inspiring. when you see all this. you are ready and willing to open up your pockets more. :)
ps - i won't mention the courthouse or tri-legacy or back-room deals with Scott Teagle. :D
Ever wonder why Clay and St. Johns county don't have these problems?
Funny. I thought St. Augustine was the nation's first city. But I get what you're saying.
From your buddy's over on the wiki:
St. Augustine is the county seat of St. Johns County [1], Florida, in the United States. It is the oldest continuously occupied European-established city, and the oldest port in the continental United States. :P
When was Jacksonville's greatest periods of growth? I must have missed it. Was that when the actor was president? You don't need to tell me the quality of life sucks in Jacksonville. I was miserable there. I find Austin fresh and invigoration. And yup, the taxes here are a hair higher, but so worth it.
Quote from: gatorback on May 30, 2008, 02:47:51 PM
When was Jacksonville's greatest periods of growth? I must have missed it. Was that when the actor was president? You don't need to tell me the quality of life sucks in Jacksonville. I was miserable there. I find Austin fresh and invigoration. And yup, the taxes here are a hair higher, but so worth it.
Jacksonville's greatest period of growth was right after the Great Fire of 1901 up to the Great Depression.
Oh that's just perfect lake. FYI, that's before the Baptist took over.
But look on the bright side, perhaps that new grade school at FBC will be the spring board back to life for jax.
Quote from: stephendare on May 30, 2008, 02:41:33 PM
The point is that this unbalanced, and totally indefensible strategy of cutting taxes before cutting spending is ass backwards. If you did this in your home budget, you would get your house taken from you.
people get their house taken from them everyday because they WASTE their income. it's not that they don't have enough income. it's that they think buying brand new furniture or a Nintinendo Wii or a DVD collection or the latest new cellphone with all the ringtones is more important than THE ESSENTIALS (like a mortgage).
and this is how the city of jax is behaving.
this would be crazy:
if the only ones able to SAY how the tax $$ was spent were the ones who paid taxes. whoa. would things be different. one thing is for sure. there wouldn't be a whole lot of assclown socialists running around screaming "the sky is falling". :)
Quote from: stephendare on May 30, 2008, 04:09:11 PM
income = expense. Balance
income is greater than expense. Profit.
income is less than expense. failure.
i agree Stephendare. Cutting expenses should be a priority in Jax.
I think its interesting that we're all arguing against the same damn thing...
government incompetence.
We just don't agree on how to address the issue: either by cutting taxes to stop the frivolous spending or dumping the morons out on the street.
driven1- I understand the anti-tax argument. Believe me, my dad's a fair tax fan, I hear about that all the time:(
But the base is this, as Stephen said in so many words, if you want to run a government like a business, you never willingly cut your income without having a buffer created by reduced spending because its not good business. Now, we could go ahead down the privitization road, but in the end, it ends up being more costly, to the average consumer, than it would be if we had all just paid for it in the first place.
We won't go into the corruption discussion. We all know about the crap that happens, the point is, how do we fix it? For example, if CB can get away with the stunts she pulls, whose fault is it? Hers for being a little shady, or ours for not holding her accountable?
And just for the record, I realize that I am probably one of the youngest contributors to this website, but please do not use my age as an excuse to underestimate my understanding of the issues. Although, I don't pay taxes, I have more invested in this community than most would like to admit: my hopes for prosperity, my dreams of our future, and my entire life is invested in the
community of diverse thought that is this town. I'm a Jacksonville native and have been involved in feuds with Sleiman, fights with JTA or FDOT, politcal campaigns and the social scene for my entire life. My idealism exists not because I am uninformed, but because I am young enough to believe it can be better and wise enough to know that pessimism and argumentative discussions only cause more problems.
---- (after I wrote the above)
Quote from: Driven1 on May 30, 2008, 04:00:54 PM
people get their house taken from them everyday because they WASTE their income. it's not that they don't have enough income. it's that they think buying brand new furniture or a Nintinendo Wii or a DVD collection or the latest new cellphone with all the ringtones is more important than THE ESSENTIALS (like a mortgage).
and this is how the city of jax is behaving.
So what's your solution driven? I am curious to understand how you plan to unseat a corrupt government, pay for community necessities AND lower taxes, without adding some sort of new FEE... What are your plans for this great individualist utopia? ???
P.S.- That last part is not intended to be rude, just blunt and direct. :-\
QuoteI think people that like living in cities with no cultural life, no mass transit, no bike lanes, no real academic possibilities, and a demonstrable inability to attract real corporate interest as a result should move to hastings florida where they belong, so that they can practice their farmhand mentality as they wish.
Isn't it possible to have these things without tax hikes? I'm another person who is opposed to raising taxes. As the only working member of a four person household, I have enough things on my plate. Before any idea of raises taxes comes online, leaders should first get a better grip and handle on the money already coming in. If that were seriously done and a few priorities were changed, I think we'll find that some of the things we believe we need tax hikes for can be funded with what we already take in.
to me, it boils down to the same old argument. even here at the local level.
regardless of who is in charge or how inept the leadership is, liberals want to increase spending and raise taxes.
conservatives want to cut incompetent, unnecessary expenses so that they can cut taxes.
and conservatives are paying 80% of the taxes, so I can understand where they are coming from.
it will never change.
chris, i actually really appreciate your vantage point and think that your age can certainly be an advantage. it takes a while though, but as you spend YEARS paying a large amount to a corrupt gov't that is inept on top of it, you become a little jaded. i've outlined my plan for cutting expenses in another thread. i'm going biking now, but will try to copy and paste that later tonight. thanks again for being here and sharing your ideas.
Quote from: Driven1 on May 30, 2008, 04:08:11 PM
this would be crazy:
if the only ones able to SAY how the tax $$ was spent were the ones who paid taxes. whoa. would things be different. one thing is for sure. there wouldn't be a whole lot of assclown socialists running around screaming "the sky is falling". :)
And whoa... What the hell do you think the voting age is? Growing up in Florida is a joke unless you've got relatives in healthcare or plan on working in the service industry for enternity. what you just proposed is cactually what happens. I didn't elect these numbskulls, the generations before me did. The reason the communitarians are running around like chicken little is because the sky IS actually falling.
I'm all for not raising taxes, but in order to stay competitive in this global market, you certainly can't be running around cutting them like the state did. That's just foolishness. Tax dollars are community investments in all public goods. I am merely trying to convey the flaws with an overriding anti-tax agenda, and I think its remarkable that the conservatives, those who have been in control for God knows how long are the ones complaining about the taxes they imposed on themselves. What is extra fluff in government? Child Services? Education? Where does the line get drawn?
And as a liberal, I'm about investing in a community where I can be proud to live, raise children, etc. If we can do that without taxes, AWESOME! If not, then pony up the money for quality government.
Quote from: stephendare on May 30, 2008, 04:30:30 PM
QuoteI'm about investing in a community where I can be proud to live, raise children, etc. If we can do that without taxes, AWESOME! If not, then pony up the money for quality government.
The taxhaters are way too lazy to get involved with their own tax monies.
you say lazy. i'd say they are probably working (and spending time with family). that is the unfortunate drawback of being an actual taxpayer. to pay all those taxes that are so wistfully wasted, you have to have a job. this is a quandry joyfully not faced by a lot of those that live off of the system.
I think the support for the tax cut WAS a message to these yahoo's to quit spending and skimming. Unfortunately they are so dense they missed the message....
Quote from: Downtown Dweller on May 31, 2008, 08:06:23 AM
I think the support for the tax cut WAS a message to these yahoo's to quit spending and skimming. Unfortunately they are so dense they missed the message....
oh, it definitely was. and our inept leaders said "to be damned! we'll spend whatever we want to! our citizens will just keep giving us more and more - watch this!"
unfortunately, i think it was a combination of two things. 1) littlepage and the t-u got the "tax them more" crowd rallied up and 2) a great PR campaign by Peyton et al was able to convince enough people to somehow look past his dismal abilities as a leader and just accept the new fees. kind of like sheep to the slaughter.
further unfortunate is that i think it will be the exact same 2 things that push a giant millage rate increase.
i'm with yesterday's T-U letter writer. let's do another sales tax increase if we want more $$. while it doesn't need to be 1/2 cent (1/4 cent would be fine) this is an across the board tax that is much more fair. would make these "tax them more" assclowns pay as well.
in any case, i am sure that i am not alone in beginning to seriously think about where in nassau, st johns, baker or clay i would like to live and about a plan to get there. these new "fees" and "increases" and "taxes" and "hikes" in Duval are getting laughable. and the citizenry that sits back and lets it happen is just as sad.
this is what our liberal mayor misses: Keep putting pressure on the real taxpayers and eventually they push back. not in form of protests down at City Hall (the original topic of this thread). but by up and moving and then you're left with the assclowns now telling you how to spend money you no longer are receiving. this is a large reason for the massive population explosion in NW St Johns County. in a related matter, it is certainly not good "urban" policy either. it takes people actually living in the city for the urban policy to be effective.
case in point -- from today's T-U:
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/053108/opi_284573931.shtml
it's starting.
lol. yep. Taxhaters vs. Taxlovers.
Quote from: stephendare on May 30, 2008, 04:24:49 PM
see the above posts.
Tax Hater cities, are Charlotte, Palatka, Richmond and Akron Ohio.
Case closed.
Charlotte does
NOT belong on that list.
Charlotte has
NEVER sold itself as a low-tax city. Compared to the rest of the Carolinas, it's taxes have always been significantly more. The city's attitude is that quality costs, and that quality comes first. Bond issues for roads, schools, water and sewer must be approved by the voters, and they are routinely approved by big margins every two years. There have probably been 100 such bond approvals in the last two decades or so. I only remember hearing of one defeat out of all of these.
Charlotte's school system has a good reputation, particularly for a large city. The DT area is clean as whistle for the most part, and parks are such are kept in good repair (kind of the polar opposite of Jax).
Need more examples - here are two:
Long before the Airport there became a hub, voters approved a major expansion in hopes of luring a carrier that would provide a hub. That is exactly what happened, and now their airport has exponentially more traffic than comparable cities. If you don't think airports are critical to economic development, ask someone from Atlanta.
About 8 or so years ago, voters easily passed a 1 cent sales tax to provide matching funds for the new rail transit system. In 2007, a small but determined group sought to repeal this same tax just prior to the rail system coming online (and with significant cost overruns). The anti-tax crowd was resoundingly rebuffed with a 70-30 % loss at the polls. Today, Charlotte is serving as a national example for a new, yet successful, rail transit system. Not to mention the rise in gas prices is validating the original decision to invest in mass transit. The system's biggest proponent, Mayor Pat McCrory, just won the GOP primary to run for Governor. Obviously supporting a tax increase did not doom his political career.
Charlotte's attitude (and to a significant degree, NC in general) is that in order to attract quality economic development, the city must be an attractive place to live, with a well educated work force. It tries to set itself apart from the low-tax, low-cost mentality that is common throughout much of the Southern US. [The Publix vs. Winn Dixie analogy works here]
So that begs the question, are the higher taxes worth it? Well this is the way I look at it, Charlotte must be doing something right because they obviously can afford to pay the higher taxes. Their average income is about
20% ABOVE the national average, while cities like Jacksonville, Nashville, and other major southern cities are
10-20 % BELOW the national average.
In short, they invested in themselves and it has paid off.
vic,
I think a major difference between Charlotte and Jax is also the quality and integrity of civic leadership. Matter of fact, I think this plays a much larger role than the actual tax base %.
In terms of Jacksonville's situation, in particular, here are my thoughts:
** The new fees should never have been approved, because all it would have taken was a vote of city council to leave things just as they were. No tax cut, no tax hike, and no new fees. The Jax legislative delegation worked hard to give Jax that option, and Peyton's lack of intestinual fortitude made that a wasted effort.
** It has been my observation that it is exponentially easier for a public body to raise a fee, than it is to get that same body to raise property taxes. So, future property tax increases will often be transformed into increases in the fees.
** Peyton will push for the anti-crime property tax increase, and he will catch a lot of flak for it. He should, he ran as a 'read-my-lips, no new taxes' Republican, so he can sleep in the bed he made. He distorted Matt Carlucci's record on taxes to win in the first place. I say what goes around comes around.
** His adminstration has contributed to the perception as well as the REALITY of government waste, making the case for even important and justifiable funding increases much more difficult. It will be more difficult to decide based on the true merits.
** Is there waste in government? Of course there is, and everyone from the mayor to the citizenry at large should seek to eliminate it. However as long as government is made of humans, there will be waste in it. The same goes for your personal budget, your church, non-profit or civic group. To deny funding for anything based on the premise that 100% of waste hasn't been eliminated is foolhardy.
** Given the huge increases in gas prices, EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE can expect to see tax increases soon. Think how much gas any government entity buys. Think about school buses, police cars, fire trucks that make a Hummer look like a hybrid, sanitation trucks. Those things use gas, LOTS of it, and don't forget building inspectors, health inspectors, etc. have to make their rounds too. Just to maintain the status quo will require higher taxes.
** While Jacksonville use to be known for getting a NFL team, landing the Super bowl, being an up and coming city in general, it is fast becoming known for it's crime rate. If that persists, there will be an inevitable impact to economic development.
Bottomline: Keep an open mind, listen to what the Jax Journey folks have to say, listen to the tax opponents, ask questions about were savings have already been made in the budget, ask for stats on the effectiveness of the prevention programs, ask for examples elsewhere where crime has been reduced from these same recommendations, get all the facts you can. Then use the sum total of that information to draw a reasoned conclusion.
This issue has only recently come to the front burner, yet knee-jerk reflex attitudes have already made up some minds. Don't let yours be one of them.
good post vic. you are level-headed and well-informed. good advice.
Quote from: Driven1 on May 31, 2008, 12:45:29 PM
vic,
I think a major difference between Charlotte and Jax is also the quality and integrity of civic leadership. Matter of fact, I think this plays a much larger role than the actual tax base %.
It is my opinion that the quality of civic leadership is the BIGGEST factor in the quality of life of any city or state. Geographic, economic, and other factors all play a role, but nothing is more critical than civic leadership. I have no doubt on that.
That said, even a strong and effective leader has to be followed. McCrory urged a rail-based mass transit plan but the voters had the final say. Delaney spearheaded the BJP, but the voters had to approve it.
Peyton has been wrong about a LOT of things, but he MAY be right on this. Or perhaps, a compromise is in order. If based on the merits, the tax increase is justified, it should be supported PROVIDED those in charge (the city and the sheriff) can be TRUSTED to effectively follow through on what is promised.
Maybe MetroJax can delve into the guts of the Jax Journey report and do some analysis?