Metro Jacksonville

There are several major developments proposed for downtown Jacksonville. However, according to a recent Jax Daily Record article ( http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=544922 ), they all may need some form of public assistance from a small pot of available cash. If you had to pick only one to assist with public money, which one would it be and why?

Option 1: Shipyards
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3883789901_5fLDNRk-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-feb-khans-jacksonville-shipyards-plans-revealed

Option 2: Healthy Town
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3635131662_zcNgcDg-600x1000.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-peter-rummells-healthy-town-site-plan-released

Option 3: Laura Street Trio
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3559226156_5LBK9hT-600x2000.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-sep-barnett-and-laura-street-trio-site-plan-september-2014

Option 4: Jacksonville Landing
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3582898016_8NwGwvk-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-jacksonville-landing-what-should-it-be

Option 5: None of them
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Dikembe-Mutumbo-Cereal-Block-Geico.gif)

I would go with the Laura Trio.

It seems to be the most feasible plan and also the furthest along. It would save 3 buildings that are headed toward demolition by neglect right in the center of downtown. The other plans are just dreams at this point.

^^^ absolutely

Laura Trio makes more sense.

Healthy Town is the one that's most likely to happen, and probably the one that needs the least assistance. It's the low-hanging fruit option. Laura Street Trio needs substantial assistance, but it could have a major effect right in the core of Downtown, and there's good momentum there. It's probably the most impactful option. The jury is out (or should be) on the Shipyards until we see some financials. And the Landing should be out of the running until there are some new plans to consider.

The city should find a way to make both the Trio and Healthy Town work as soon as possible, and be proactive about future plans on the other two.

The Landing is basically off the radar, in contrast to three active proposals.

Agree with everything above. In addition, the Laura Trio is probably the one that isn't possible without public money because of the significant cost of renovating three very rundown buildings.

There is no Landing Plan, and I think the Shipyards (while important) is way too early to actually say we have a real plan here. I see no reason that Healthy Town can't happen on it's own. Really, that leaves one option.

Laura Trio!


I'm guessing that Kahn would be happy if the Shipyards property were "given" to him as the incentive to build his vision.

Healthy Town sounds like it already has the momentum and funding it needs.

The Landing: back to the drawing board.

The Laura Street Trio, without question. For numerous reasons:
- With the limited funding that the DIA has, you are getting the biggest, most immediate bang for your buck at Laura.
- Atkins has done much of the legwork already and it's clear that the group has a great plan for the Trio
- Without public assistance, I'm not sure if this project happens. You're potentially saving some very critical building stock.
- Healthy Town and the Shipyards are massively important in terms of downtown redevelopment, but they are largely islands unto themselves at this point. The Trio has the potential to reactive a large area directly in the heart of the downtown core.
- A restoration of the Laura Street Trio would complement the DIA's existing investment at Hemming Park.

After seeing Sleiman's last proposal for the Landing, I wouldn't give the guy a dime at this point, and I would be very hesitant to do anything with the Landing until we know exactly what will happen with the Shipyards.

On the Shipyards, it's way too early for the DIA to be handing out money. The city still needs to finish (start?) the remediation and issue an RFP. There are other ways to incentive this project as well, including land and long-term assurances on a riverwalk extension and/or Berkman II solution.

Like the Healthytown idea a lot, but it sounds like they might not need the funding as badly as the Atkins group, and I'd rather see the DIA's limited capital stay on the north bank for now.

Quote from: KenFSU on February 19, 2015, 12:21:48 PM
The Laura Street Trio, without question. For numerous reasons:
- With the limited funding that the DIA has, you are getting the biggest, most immediate bang for your buck at Laura.
- Atkins has done much of the legwork already and it's clear that the group has a great plan for the Trio
- Without public assistance, I'm not sure if this project happens. You're potentially saving some very critical building stock.
- Healthy Town and the Shipyards are massively important in terms of downtown redevelopment, but they are largely islands unto themselves at this point. The Trio has the potential to reactive a large area directly in the heart of the downtown core.
- A restoration of the Laura Street Trio would complement the DIA's existing investment at Hemming Park.

After seeing Sleiman's last proposal for the Landing, I wouldn't give the guy a dime at this point, and I would be very hesitant to do anything with the Landing until we know exactly what will happen with the Shipyards.

On the Shipyards, it's way too early for the DIA to be handing out money. The city still needs to finish (start?) the remediation and issue an RFP. There are other ways to incentive this project as well, including land and long-term assurances on a riverwalk extension and/or Berkman II solution.

Like the Healthytown idea a lot, but it sounds like they might not need the funding as badly as the Atkins group, and I'd rather see the DIA's limited capital stay on the north bank for now.

What he said ...

Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

Quote from: turdhead on February 19, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

Ummmm wow.


Wait, was that stated "tongue-in-cheek"?

Quote from: turdhead on February 19, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

You heard it here first.

Downtown Jacksonville's biggest albatross:

Loitering teens.

(http://i.giphy.com/2topPPBhUK3hC.gif)

(http://i.giphy.com/EBTnsbA1AWXpS.gif)

(http://i.giphy.com/eDkA2wthvmYQo.gif)

(http://i.giphy.com/nsHX3Ks8LprCU.gif)

Trio, and not even close.

" - Without public assistance, I'm not sure if this project happens. You're potentially saving some very critical building stock. "

There's no forseeable avenue for this project without public funding.

Laura St trio if it is realistic.  But have just heard the Adkins group say lots of things and really nothing to date.  So a bit leary of him at this point. If not, then Shipyards.

Is the Laura Trio also not available though for other incentives that the shipyards would not be such money for the historical aspects???

Also, outside of the DiA I would think there other incentives.  I mean I just read where the city provided 18 million for nearly 100 fairly low paying jobs for the Volkswagain deal.  So I can see much more going towards the Shipyard and the payoff would be much greater than the VW thing with regard to job creation, increased tax revenue, quality of life enhancements and overall city pride.

Quote from: edjax on February 19, 2015, 03:16:34 PM
Laura St trio if it is realistic.  But have just heard the Adkins group say lots of things and really nothing to date.  So a bit leary of him at this point. If not, then Shipyards.

Is the Laura Trio also not available though for other incentives that the shipyards would not be such money for the historical aspects???

Also, outside of the DiA I would think there other incentives.  I mean I just read where the city provided 18 million for nearly 100 fairly low paying jobs for the Volkswagain deal.  So I can see much more going towards the Shipyard and the payoff would be much greater than the VW thing with regard to job creation, increased tax revenue, quality of life enhancements and overall city pride.

My bad, the 18 million is Jaxport incentives. 

My vote goes to whichever project adds the most parking to downtown.

Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2015, 03:04:37 PM

Quote from: turdhead on February 19, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

This post just displaced #7 on the top ten dumbest posts in MJ history.  Wow. and congratulations.

Would love to be a fly on the wall and witness the chain of events that caused this whole thing to unfold. This random gentleman (or lady) on his lunch break, surfing the internet, when he clicks over to MetroJacksonville to see what is going on in the city.

He reads an innocuous post about potential downtown projects, and his blood begins to boil, thinking of not only all of the downtown unpleasants, but also the hoards of core youths that clog the streets with their reckless loitering.

In dramatic fashion, he angrily sweeps everything off his desk with his arm.

"That's it!" he thinks. "This stops TODAY!"

After years of lurking, he decides to finally take the nuclear option.

With sweaty palms, he clicks on the "Register Now" button. Prompted for a username, he responds:

"JacksonvilleMan."

Taken.

"ConcernedWithTeens."

Taken.

"Turdhead."

All clear.

With steam practically shooting out of his ears, he confirms his email address and clicks back over to the post.

Placing shaking fingers on the home keys, he begins to type.

"Whatever ends up being developed," he writes -- adding "(hopefully all)" to demonstrate that he is truly one of us – "there HAS to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people."

He places teens in quotation marks. Are they really teens at all?

And by saying, "teens and other unpleasant people," he imparts a valuable lesson – all teenagers are unpleasant monsters.

These "other unpleasant people" remain as much an enigma as the loitering youth. Why are they unpleasant? Do they lack homes? Are they of color? Do they not say 'God bless you' when somebody at Hemming Park sneezes?

Feeling empowered by the first half of his post, he reaches into his bottom desk drawer, pulls out his Hot Topic beret, and places it atop his head.

Like a beat poet, he concludes, "Nobody, with money to spend, is going to spend, any time, navigating the go/no go areas."

Pleased with himself, he depresses the "Post" button, kicks his feet up on his desk, and takes a satisfying bite of his Three Cheese Hot Pocket.

Quote from: Todd_Parker on February 19, 2015, 03:40:28 PM
My vote goes to whichever project adds the most parking to downtown.

Is that a vote for Code Enforcement, to result in more surface parking lots?

Quote from: KenFSU on February 19, 2015, 03:46:21 PM

Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2015, 03:04:37 PM

Quote from: turdhead on February 19, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

This post just displaced #7 on the top ten dumbest posts in MJ history.  Wow. and congratulations.

Would love to be a fly on the wall and witness the chain of events that caused this whole thing to unfold. This random gentleman (or lady) on his lunch break, surfing the internet, when he clicks over to MetroJacksonville to see what is going on in the city.

He reads an innocuous post about potential downtown projects, and his blood begins to boil, thinking of not only all of the downtown unpleasants, but also the hoards of core youths that clog the streets with their reckless loitering.

In dramatic fashion, he angrily sweeps everything off his desk with his arm.

"That's it!" he thinks. "This stops TODAY!"

After years of lurking, he decides to finally take the nuclear option.

With sweaty palms, he clicks on the "Register Now" button. Prompted for a username, he responds:

"JacksonvilleMan."

Taken.

"ConcernedWithTeens."

Taken.

"Turdhead."

All clear.

With steam practically shooting out of his ears, he confirms his email address and clicks back over to the post.

Placing shaking fingers on the home keys, he begins to type.

"Whatever ends up being developed," he writes -- adding "(hopefully all)" to demonstrate that he is truly one of us – "there HAS to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people."

He places teens in quotation marks. Are they really teens at all?

And by saying, "teens and other unpleasant people," he imparts a valuable lesson – all teenagers are unpleasant monsters.

These "other unpleasant people" remain as much an enigma as the loitering youth. Why are they unpleasant? Do they lack homes? Are they of color? Do they not say 'God bless you' when somebody at Hemming Park sneezes?

Feeling empowered by the first half of his post, he reaches into his bottom desk drawer, pulls out his Hot Topic beret, and places it atop his head.

Like a beat poet, he concludes, "Nobody, with money to spend, is going to spend, any time, navigating the go/no go areas."

Pleased with himself, he depresses the "Post" button, kicks his feet up on his desk, and takes a satisfying bite of his Three Cheese Hot Pocket.

Haha, that, sir, was epic.

There are forms of cost-benefit analysis that also weigh the public benefits for a project. Instead of basing how to use a finite amount of money subjectively, the city should have some way to measure the benefits of each project in relation to each other.

A very simplistic explanation would be that you evaluate each project against each other this way

-Project X will generate this much property tax revenue, this much sales tax revenue, this much bed tax revenue, will create this many jobs, etc and assign a valuation to each project. You then also add intangible benefits of a project such as creation of public space, aesthetic improvements, potential stimulation of other development, etc.

Then compare each project to each other and determine what the city will get the best ROI on both financially and intangibly.

If project A is only asking for $10 million and will generate $250 million in benefits, it is a no brainer to fund it over Project B asking $8 million that will only generate $200 million in benefits.

However, if project B will stimulate an additional $200 million in nearby development, while project A stimulates $100 million, the choice is different.

I wrote this in 5 minutes, so its not perfectly explained or formulated....but I sure hope COJ has some way to properly evaluate the projects against each other.

And Ken, bravo sir. Bravo. You might have just surpassed Bill Murray singing Jaws (Love Theme) as the funniest thing I've seen all week.

Trio by a mile, Healthy Town, Khan!!!!, in that order.
The Landing? No way. Get the Trio done and there's plenty of incentive to re-do the Landing. Get the Trio and the Shipyards done, and downtown would be rolling so well, the Landing will get itself done.Or it will die and someone better will get it.

Oh that got me laughing. 
I think turdhead might be Don Redman

There are several projects that would be good for the city. I would pick the Landing.  T
The city has promised parking since Tony purchased the property.  In reference to
Laura street how do you develop without any money.  Kahan owns the buildings and
nothing can be built without money which seems they have none.  So why should the
City get into bad situation at the start, at least Tony has his own money

Quote from: KenFSU on February 19, 2015, 03:46:21 PM

Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2015, 03:04:37 PM

Quote from: turdhead on February 19, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

This post just displaced #7 on the top ten dumbest posts in MJ history.  Wow. and congratulations.

Would love to be a fly on the wall and witness the chain of events that caused this whole thing to unfold. This random gentleman (or lady) on his lunch break, surfing the internet, when he clicks over to MetroJacksonville to see what is going on in the city.

He reads an innocuous post about potential downtown projects, and his blood begins to boil, thinking of not only all of the downtown unpleasants, but also the hoards of core youths that clog the streets with their reckless loitering.

In dramatic fashion, he angrily sweeps everything off his desk with his arm.

"That's it!" he thinks. "This stops TODAY!"

After years of lurking, he decides to finally take the nuclear option.

With sweaty palms, he clicks on the "Register Now" button. Prompted for a username, he responds:

"JacksonvilleMan."

Taken.

"ConcernedWithTeens."

Taken.

"Turdhead."

All clear.

With steam practically shooting out of his ears, he confirms his email address and clicks back over to the post.

Placing shaking fingers on the home keys, he begins to type.

"Whatever ends up being developed," he writes -- adding "(hopefully all)" to demonstrate that he is truly one of us – "there HAS to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people."

He places teens in quotation marks. Are they really teens at all?

And by saying, "teens and other unpleasant people," he imparts a valuable lesson – all teenagers are unpleasant monsters.

These "other unpleasant people" remain as much an enigma as the loitering youth. Why are they unpleasant? Do they lack homes? Are they of color? Do they not say 'God bless you' when somebody at Hemming Park sneezes?

Feeling empowered by the first half of his post, he reaches into his bottom desk drawer, pulls out his Hot Topic beret, and places it atop his head.

Like a beat poet, he concludes, "Nobody, with money to spend, is going to spend, any time, navigating the go/no go areas."

Pleased with himself, he depresses the "Post" button, kicks his feet up on his desk, and takes a satisfying bite of his Three Cheese Hot Pocket.

(http://media0.giphy.com/media/amZfgEVrf84Xm/200.gif)

Quote from: KenFSU on February 19, 2015, 03:46:21 PM

Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2015, 03:04:37 PM

Quote from: turdhead on February 19, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

This post just displaced #7 on the top ten dumbest posts in MJ history.  Wow. and congratulations.

Would love to be a fly on the wall and witness the chain of events that caused this whole thing to unfold. This random gentleman (or lady) on his lunch break, surfing the internet, when he clicks over to MetroJacksonville to see what is going on in the city.

He reads an innocuous post about potential downtown projects, and his blood begins to boil, thinking of not only all of the downtown unpleasants, but also the hoards of core youths that clog the streets with their reckless loitering.

In dramatic fashion, he angrily sweeps everything off his desk with his arm.

"That's it!" he thinks. "This stops TODAY!"

After years of lurking, he decides to finally take the nuclear option.

With sweaty palms, he clicks on the "Register Now" button. Prompted for a username, he responds:

"JacksonvilleMan."

Taken.

"ConcernedWithTeens."

Taken.

"Turdhead."

All clear.

With steam practically shooting out of his ears, he confirms his email address and clicks back over to the post.

Placing shaking fingers on the home keys, he begins to type.

"Whatever ends up being developed," he writes -- adding "(hopefully all)" to demonstrate that he is truly one of us – "there HAS to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people."

He places teens in quotation marks. Are they really teens at all?

And by saying, "teens and other unpleasant people," he imparts a valuable lesson – all teenagers are unpleasant monsters.

These "other unpleasant people" remain as much an enigma as the loitering youth. Why are they unpleasant? Do they lack homes? Are they of color? Do they not say 'God bless you' when somebody at Hemming Park sneezes?

Feeling empowered by the first half of his post, he reaches into his bottom desk drawer, pulls out his Hot Topic beret, and places it atop his head.

Like a beat poet, he concludes, "Nobody, with money to spend, is going to spend, any time, navigating the go/no go areas."

Pleased with himself, he depresses the "Post" button, kicks his feet up on his desk, and takes a satisfying bite of his Three Cheese Hot Pocket.

Sorry, but I find this extremely offensive to all of us Hot Pocket connoisseurs.  Talk about stereotyping.  ;)

Quote from: Apache on February 19, 2015, 06:22:54 PM

Quote from: Camelman on February 19, 2015, 05:59:32 PM
There are several projects that would be good for the city. I would pick the Landing.  T
The city has promised parking since Tony purchased the property.  In reference to
Laura street how do you develop without any money.  Kahan owns the buildings and
nothing can be built without money which seems they have none.  So why should the
City get into bad situation at the start, at least Tony has his own money

and...welcome to the boards Tony!

bwahahahaha .... I thought the same thing.

Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2015, 03:04:37 PM

Quote from: turdhead on February 19, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
Whatever ends up being developed (hopefully all), there has to be a deterrent to making any or all finished projects becoming a loitering space for "teens" and other unpleasant people. Nobody with money to spend is going to spend any time navigating the go/no go areas.

This post just displaced #7 on the top ten dumbest posts in MJ history.  Wow. and congratulations.

+1 Good call Stephen!

Quote from: Camelman on February 19, 2015, 05:59:32 PMKahan owns the buildings and nothing can be built without money which seems they have none.  So why should the City get into bad situation at the start, at least Tony has his own money

I don't know if I should go there, but the man WROTE A CHECK for $760 Million to buy 100% of the Jaguars (the NFL doesn't really allow you to mortgage the cost of buying a team).

I assure you, Khan has money.

Quote from: Camelman on February 19, 2015, 05:59:32 PM
There are several projects that would be good for the city. I would pick the Landing.  T
The city has promised parking since Tony purchased the property. 

and said parking should open in the next few months