The Controversial History Behind the Rodman Reservoir
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3875473038_7jWhGSq-L.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville takes a brief look at the history Cross Florida Barge Canal. A project that created the Rodman Dam and Reservoir while also becoming the largest public works project in America to halted in the middle of construction.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-feb-the-controversial-history-behind-the-rodman-reservoir
Here's a really good short documentary about Rodman I stumbled across last week.
https://vimeo.com/92451063
Regardless of any of the other issues going on with the river (at either end), it's the right thing for this dam to be removed.
The book called "Ditch of Dreams" is a great read for those who want to know the history and machinations of the politics around this.
Finehoe posted about the book earlier I believe.
Grant it I know nothing about civil engineering but I'm not so sure if removing the dam now would be a good idea since it has been so many years. This may actually do more damage to the environment. How long would that area have to be under construction? Would it ever be the exact way that it was prior to the dam? I think the most practical and safe thing would be to just leave it as is unless the dam is deteriorating or is in bad repair and cannot be maintained. Almost all man made things that block the natural flow of water has issues and need constant work to mitigate those issues to lessen the impact on the environment. Maybe what the dam needs is to be updated to protect the environment better rather than try and remove it all together?
Rodman Dam removal could be another shovel ready project to add to the next federal economic stimulus plan. Building and later demolishing government projects is a great way to create jobs and stimulate the economy. You know, like making weapons systems the Pentagon doesn't want. (insert sarsastic emoji here)
Actually, dams are being removed in many parts of the country. There are documentaries out there talking about the real positives to the river systems seen by returning the areas back to how they were supposed to be not how they were poorly engineered to be.
It is kind of an odd twist. Tear down something unnatural from 1968 to create something unnatural in 2015.
Remove something made for commerce so we can build something for commerce.
I am sure Putnam County will have something to say about it.
Also I would like to see the statistics that show that breaking the dam will increase net water flow into the St Johns. The gates on the Kilpatrick Dam are open 24x7x365. As far as aquaculture improvements isnt there a dam bypass that allows fish and other species to enter the Ock without the dam blocking them?
I dont really have any skin in the game. But some of the information bandied around seem strange.
Quote from: JohnnyK on February 13, 2015, 09:45:10 AM
Grant it I know nothing about civil engineering but I'm not so sure if removing the dam now would be a good idea since it has been so many years. This may actually do more damage to the environment. How long would that area have to be under construction? Would it ever be the exact way that it was prior to the dam? I think the most practical and safe thing would be to just leave it as is unless the dam is deteriorating or is in bad repair and cannot be maintained. Almost all man made things that block the natural flow of water has issues and need constant work to mitigate those issues to lessen the impact on the environment. Maybe what the dam needs is to be updated to protect the environment better rather than try and remove it all together?
Breaching the dam would not do any permanent damage to the environment, and as far as dam removals go, it would actually be one of the easiest and cheapest to perform from what I have read. Your point about man-made structures needing constant work to mitigate issues is completely accurate and one of the biggest issues with this dam. Every few years the reservoir is drawn down for vegetation removal due to the fact it is such a poor ecosystem as far as water health goes. There are still issues with fish die offs in the reservoir.
Since they didn't dredge a canal when the dam was put in place, the river actually begins to returns to its original state and the uncovered land attempts to re-vegetate. Updating the dam makes zero sense since the dam is ultimately pointless, and already costs $1M/year in tax revenue just for maintenance. The only way to improve the environment around any dam is to remove it.
Quote from: strider on February 13, 2015, 11:35:35 AM
Actually, dams are being removed in many parts of the country. There are documentaries out there talking about the real positives to the river systems seen by returning the areas back to how they were supposed to be not how they were poorly engineered to be.
Yup. See:
http://damnationfilm.com/
http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/70305212
Quote from: spuwho on February 13, 2015, 12:31:38 PM
It is kind of an odd twist. Tear down something unnatural from 1968 to create something unnatural in 2015.
Remove something made for commerce so we can build something for commerce.
I am sure Putnam County will have something to say about it.
Also I would like to see the statistics that show that breaking the dam will increase net water flow into the St Johns. The gates on the Kilpatrick Dam are open 24x7x365. As far as aquaculture improvements isnt there a dam bypass that allows fish and other species to enter the Ock without the dam blocking them?
I dont really have any skin in the game. But some of the information bandied around seem strange.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2015-01-27/story/ron-littlepage-whats-difference-between-rodman-dam-and
QuoteThe reservoir covers 9,500 acres. With that much water surface, satellite measurements have shown that 10 million gallons of water a day are lost to evaporation during the cooler months and 60 million gallons a day are lost during the warmer months.
There are also apparently several springs that are now underneath the reservoir and effectively drowned.
I agree that removing the dam as a political bargaining chip for JaxPort and the RiverKeeper is ultimately pretty shitty, and only going to add flames to the fire of the "battered child" that is Putnam County, but it's something that needs to happen. I would prefer that it be removed solely because it is the "right" thing to do, but that seldom is driving force enough for anything environment-related.
Was everything in this article redacted? Why am I seeing gray over photos and words?
Quote from: simms3 on February 13, 2015, 12:44:44 PM
Was everything in this article redacted? Why am I seeing gray over photos and words?
You need to interact with the survey on the first page to view front page articles on MetroJax now.
Quote from: spuwho on February 13, 2015, 12:31:38 PMAlso I would like to see the statistics that show that breaking the dam will increase net water flow into the St Johns. The gates on the Kilpatrick Dam are open 24x7x365. As far as aquaculture improvements isnt there a dam bypass that allows fish and other species to enter the Ock without the dam blocking them?
The lake has drowned a lot of springs that were in the watershed. From what I understand some still flow but others don't due to the increased water pressure on them. Theoretically the flow rates from the springs would increase. Also, the reservoir is relatively shallow and warm. Compared to the cool, shaded river the amount of evaporation is huge.
As far as a dam that lets fish through. No there isn't anything to allow fish through but the lock which is basically closed 24/7 unless a random boat comes. These aren't salmon, fish ladders don't work here. This dam destroyed the southernmost breeding ground for Stripers. Now all of the Stripers in the St Johns are released by FWC. The only time the lock is opened for wildlife is when manatees get into it.
What about the Eureka Lock and Dam at the other end? A working functional lock that no boats can transit.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7422/16521503451_b6906f965f.jpg)
Quote from: spuwho on February 13, 2015, 08:25:28 PM
What about the Eureka Lock and Dam at the other end? A working functional lock that no boats can transit.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7422/16521503451_b6906f965f.jpg)
Eureka was never completed and isn't functional
Not that it means a whole lot at this point in its life, but it is registered as "complete". Functional is probably something else completely.
Meant to raise the water level through Silver Creek and provide high water back to the planned and never built Ocala Lock.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8672/16497615876_e219890c97_c.jpg)
Sorry, yes the lock itself is complete but the dam isn't so the lock was never put into service.
What is interesting is that when FDOT raised the highways over the canal ROW they even installed the barge bumpers on the pylons underneath. Now its just a haven for off road vehicles.
If the Kilpatrick and Eureka Dam are removed, I wonder how long it will be before FDOT will bring down all those roads they raised in 1970. I-75, which was built after the canal was cancelled did not have to rise up and over. The only remnant left of the canal there is a Cross Florida Trail Bridge over the expressway.
Anyone adept with Google Earth can clearly see the remains of the canal ROW south of Ocala, all the way to Dunnellon.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/16530208465_ec53e48136_c.jpg)
Actually there are a few unfinished remnants of the canal hidden along the greenway. There are a number of sections of the canal that were dug but never flooded, you can make them out on the areials you posted west of I-75. If you look at the spot where the ROW crosses 441/301 you'll see the road split. There is a partailly build bridge in those woods.
Interesting, I did find the single unfinished bridge pylon in the trees in the highway split.
Here are the barge bumpers on County Highway 316 in the unwatered section of the canal.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/16346621010_1ba65fc215_c.jpg)
I checked Ft Brooks Road as well, and while FDOT did raise it, there is a small watered remnant north of the bridge. It appears the Ocala Boat Club has taken residence just south where the Silver and Ocklawaha merge.
For those who ask, why the fascination?
I enjoy retracing old canals in the US. I have retraced several of them across the midwest like the Hennepin, (Illinois & Mississippi), Illinois & Michigan, Wabash & Erie, Miami & Erie, several branches of Ohio & Erie and Walhonding Canals. My Great, Great Grandfather made a living running a lumber mill in Ohio and shipped his materials to market on the Walhonding Canal and tought at a nearby 2 room schoolhouse when the canal would freeze over in the winter.
Before railroads existed and national roads were funded, the only way to get around in the US, was either by Indian Trail, riverboat or by packet boat on a canal. When the railroads came, most of those public investments in canals were lost by 1880 and the rest by WWI.
When I moved to Florida and heard that there was an unfinished canal, I was piqued and wanted to know all I could. That led me to the book "Ditch of Dreams".
Finding the Cross Florida Barge Canal is definitely much easier than finding a canal built between 1835 and 1856. Can't tell you how many county clerks and county libraries I have been in up north going through old plat maps. Retracing the Wabash & Erie through southern Indiana from Terre Haute to Evansville was the most fun I ever had. But I digress. Back to Florida again!
Any other long lost canals in Florida?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 15, 2015, 12:50:05 AM
Any other long lost canals in Florida?
Depends on what is considered "lost" I guess. Florida likes to call their water drainage and distribution channels "canals", but I am only interested in the ones designed for transport of boats.
The Old Haulover Canal between the Indian River and Mosquito Lagoon in Broward County was built in 1887. It still functions today, but it has no locks and works mostly as a way for people to get boats back and forth between the two bodies of water. It was called
haulover becuase it is where pre-Spanish indian tribes would carry their canoes between.
Henry Flagler purchased a majority interest in a canal company called the
Florida Coast Line Canal and Transportation Company with the idea of creating a canal system from St Augustine to Lake Worth. With canals being pretty much passe by the time he arrived in St Augustine, I am not exactly sure why he thought this to be workable. It was this company that made the Haulover Canal practical before the Feds took it over.
Mud Lake Canal down in the Everglades in Monroe County is a US registered historic place. It was thought to have been dug by a pre-Tequesta tribe that needed easy canoe access to the Bear Lake Mounds. They think it was dug between 1200-1400BC. It is considered a engineering feat of its time becuase when measured in modern terms, they say the tribal leaders were well versed in the hydrology of the area and knew just where it should route. Apparently there are some other aboriginal canoe canals in Florida, but I am familiar with only this one.
The sister canal project to the Cross Florida was the St Johns-Indian River Barge Canal. It was actually proposed by the Florida Legislature in 1850 as part of an internal improvements bill, but I think a financial panic killed it until it was revived as the "southern route" for boats using the Cross Florida. It was supposed to connect from the Indian River south of Oak Hill and run to Lake Harney. Some environmental issues were found involving the hatching of shad eggs, so the route was moved north to Lake Monroe south of Osteen. The cities of Sanford and Titusville were pushing this canal route pretty heavy as they saw it as a commerce opportunity. The whole thing was about to break ground when President Nixon pulled the plug on the Cross Florida. As far as I know, since nothing was built, there are no remains to locate.
Interestingly enough, the HQ for the Canal Authority of the State of Florida was Jacksonville before it was folded into the FDNR. The US Army Corp of Engineers office handles waterway management now.
Cool stuff! I thought I remembered a canal system around Winter Park Florida...
I grew up in Winter Haven. There's system of navigable canals known as "the Chain of Lakes (the canals connect 24 lakes) surrounding the city. It was first used to transport citrus when the area was still pretty rural but now it's a recreational amenity. Today, there are spots where restaurants have drive up windows for boats and for years, you could park the boat to watch water ski shows at Cypress Gardens for free. I believe you still can with Legoland but I'm not 100% sure. Anyway, it's a pretty cool thing to see and experience if you ever get an opportunity to check it out.
QuoteIn 1915, the Twenty Lakes Boat Club started digging canals to create a chain of lakes. It ran out of money for the project within two years.
In 1919, the Florida Legislature created the Winter Haven Lake Region Boat Course. That organization — now formally named the Lake Region Lakes Management District and informally known as the Canal Commission — continues to oversee the chain today under the direction of Executive Director Roger Griffiths.
The canals were first used to transport produce and other goods from one area to another. Over the years, they became important for recreation and tourism, allowing boaters, skiers and anglers to move easily between lakes.
The chain actually consists of two systems: The southern chain includes 16 lakes and the northern chain has nine.
"If there's anything that changed the city forever, it's that," said Bob Gernert Jr., executive director of the Greater Winter Haven Chamber of Commerce.
Full article: http://www.theledger.com/article/20110619/NEWS/110619333
(http://leedyforlakes.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/locks.jpg?w=600&h=450)
(http://blog.winterhavenchamber.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Canal.jpg)
(http://www.le-ad.org/WH_Area_Lakes_&_Amenities_Map(revised)_11x17_(1).jpg)
^I grew up and my parents still live within walking distance of Lake Smart, Lake Swan (a sinkhole) and Lake Idyl (a larger sinkhole).
^Very cool Lake. Spuwho are you in Jax? Would you like to kayak Downtown? Your history on canals and our Waterways in Florida makes me think about connectivity.
Thanks Lake! Winter Park has some old logging canals...
BTW the Winter Park Art festival is coming in March and we always take the AMTRAK round trip... drops you off right at the festival!
(http://www.youtube.com/v/A3nXqknIYQ8)
http://youtu.be/A3nXqknIYQ8
http://youtu.be/mUE2FttXHP4
Thanks for this info Lake.
I was recently researching some canals between some dry lakes by Gainesville (Camp Canal) and a canal that ran from West Palm Beach west.
I always thought they were recreational canals and never realized they had been made to move citrus. Something worth checking out.
Another lesser known canal that never was is in Brevard County, the Addison Canal. The canal was to be dug bewteen the St Johns and Indian Rivers. The canal almost made it to the Indian River but difficlties of digging through a coquina ridge halted it and it was abandoned. You can see it just south of the SR 50 exit on I-95 and there is a county park that has a dry section of the canal where they ran into the coquina.
Quote from: acme54321 on February 15, 2015, 07:27:24 PM
Another lesser known canal that never was is in Brevard County, the Addison Canal. The canal was to be dug bewteen the St Johns and Indian Rivers. The canal almost made it to the Indian River but difficlties of digging through a coquina ridge halted it and it was abandoned. You can see it just south of the SR 50 exit on I-95 and there is a county park that has a dry section of the canal where they ran into the coquina.
Very interesting and good find. Curious because the St John's is not very navigable south of Lake Harney. I see where they made it all the way to the St John's and they attempted to connect the canal with Addison Creek on the Indian River side.
Here is what is left of it just north of the St Johns.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7394/16543908261_2298f14bd2_c.jpg)
I did find some history on it as I wanted to know when the dig was attempted. This is a excerpt from the North Brevard Historical site. The site says that Brevard County has had issues with the canal even today because it causes an unnatural flow of water towards Titusville when it rains. Before the canal, water flowed west into the St John's. I am definitely going to go check this out, especially that coquina cut.
http://www.nbbd.com/godo/ef/canal/index.html (http://www.nbbd.com/godo/ef/canal/index.html)
(http://www.nbbd.com/godo/ef/canal/NBHS-2.jpg)
The Addison Canal was reportedly dug in 1912-13.
Edgar W. Ellis put together a consortium of developers that had hoped to drain the marshland in the St. Johns River valley and sell it to farmers to grow crops. The canal would also be used to transport the crops and other goods. Some say that the canal was designed to divert floodwaters from the valley to the lagoon. Others say the plan may have been to connect the St. Johns River with the Indian River itself, but that is generally doubted.
This consortium was known as "Titusville Fruit and Farm Lands Company," and was incorporated by Mr. Ellis, C.J. West, and J.H. Beckwith in 1911. They aquired 22,500 acres, mostly in the western portion of the old Delespine Grant. The canal's course is pretty much east from the St. Johns River marshes through The Great Outdoors RV Resort, along the south border of the Blue Heron Water Reclamation Facility, through the Windover Development. Just west of Grissom Road it cuts north east to the Enchanted Forest where it turns due east, ending just past the scrub/coquina ridge in the Addison Creek. The plan was to follow the creek, heading north easterly, ending up in the Indian River at Addison Point. Various documents record it as the Addison Canal or the Ellis Canal.
The marshland and sand ridges proved no problem for the equipment of the day. You can see a nice wide Addison Canal flowing under I-95, just south of Exit 215. One story relates that the equipment that was used came from the Panama Canal Project that had been abandoned by the French engineers.
The canal was never completed. It met its fate in the Enchanted Forest. The coquina rock ridge, which goes north-south through the center of the forest, proved to be an unsurmountable obstacle.
They made considerable progress, as the gorge we see today shows. It appears that their equipment broke down, and that it took longer than anticipated to dig through the ridge. The consortium went broke. They were able to re-finance once, but the second time they had to abandon the project. The canal never reached a useful depth and construction ended just east of the ridge in Addison Creek.
The spoil from digging the canal was piled up in what is now a muscadine grape vine covered field east of the ridge, stretching south over the lime trail. That spoil was eventually used in the 1940's as fill for the runways at the Naval Air Station which is now Space Coast Regional Airport.
FDR and LBJ, say no more. FDR spent on many useless projects and it improved nothing in terms of pulling us out of the Great Depression. Only WWII did that. LBJ's Great Society was more of the same. Spend, spend, spend and somehow everything will work out fine. Now our National Debt looms as we pretend we can ignore it and continue to spend money we don't have.
As for projects like this, no one in federal or state levels of government cares what the citizens think except at election time. Otherwise, they do as they please and support crony capitalism by rewarding companies that scratch their backs. Both parties are that way. Throw them ALL out!
Quote from: Redbaron616 on February 17, 2015, 07:27:38 AM
FDR and LBJ, say no more. FDR spent on many useless projects and it improved nothing in terms of pulling us out of the Great Depression. Only WWII did that. LBJ's Great Society was more of the same. Spend, spend, spend and somehow everything will work out fine. Now our National Debt looms as we pretend we can ignore it and continue to spend money we don't have.
As for projects like this, no one in federal or state levels of government cares what the citizens think except at election time. Otherwise, they do as they please and support crony capitalism by rewarding companies that scratch their backs. Both parties are that way. Throw them ALL out!
I dont think the Cross Florida Barge Canal could be solely identified as a Democratically funded overspend. Discussion on how to reduce the risk and cost of shipping commerce through the Florida Straits had been an issue since the Spanish era. Many were of the thought that when David Yulee built the Cedar Key to Fernandina railroad, a canal would be superfluous.
The effort was driven in the 1930's as a way to stimulate economic growth in an area known only for its citrus. Tourism was still in its infancy relative to todays terms. By the 1960s railroads were declining and losing money, many felt Florida needed a logistical advantage to move forward.
Unfortunately, environmental impact statements and hearings were not very comprehensive as they are today. They probably could have distanced it further from the Ocklawaha but it probably would have cost twice as much. It is well documented that the Cross Florida and the St Johns-Indian River canals all sufferred from chronic underfunding.
So the abandoned route was basically the biggest bang for the lowest buck.
There was an American mentality in the 1800's that the land was meant to be tamed, not unlike an animal. That was perpetuated to some degree during the depression where we spent alot of money "taming" the countryside with small regard of the environmental impacts.
By the late 1960's those impacts were just being acknowledged and in the 1970's, the US started developing more comprehensive environmental reviews of capital projects.
So I think if you think of the project in socioeconomic terms and less in political ones, you begin to capture some if the energy that was driving it.
I kind of wish the canal had been completed, at least in a way that didn't screw up the aquifer (if that were even possible). If you live on the east coast of Florida it's pretty difficult to experience boating on the west coast because of the distances involved. You really have to have some serious time most people don't have to go down, around through Okeechobee, and all the way back up. The gulf is strikingly beautiful, powder beaches, tropical water, lots of stuff to do. It would have been fun. But beyond that it would have been an ecological disaster.
I guess the peasants that can only afford a boat small enough to trailer are lucky then...
The Cross Florida Canal would be obsolete in todays terms if it didnt receive some form of upgrades post completion. Todays shipping requirements are much different than they were in 1963. The Colonial Pipeline negated the need to barge petro products out of Texas. Commercial logistics have shifted to Asia for large shipments. Railroads developed unit trains to reduce the cost of shipping aggregates nationally.
Barges still have a large use for shipping grain products out if the midwest and salt and chemical products north. Many trash barges ply the east coast regularly, but the logistical need for barging products through Florida isnt as necessary as it was in the early 1900's.
Quote from: acme54321 on February 17, 2015, 09:18:09 PM
I guess the peasants that can only afford a boat small enough to trailer are lucky then...
It's not a money thing. Just that if you cruise or plan on spending any real amount of time aboard, then a boat that's easily trailerable is unlikely to work out. Realistically you need stowage for your gear and clothing, you'll want a shower, preferably a stall. Then for half the year in Florida it's 90 degrees so you're going to want air conditioning, that in turn means a genset. By the time you make a basic list of what you'll want to spend any real time aboard and be comfortable, you've ruled out pretty much anything that fits on a trailer. I'm not being a snot, this is just the reality of it.