Time to Demolish Former Courthouse Parking Lot?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3869835574_RSVCfqc-L.jpg)
After being closed to the public since 2012 for structural problems, a portion of Liberty Street finally fell into the river. As we ponder why, how much it will cost to repair, and where the money to repair will come from, perhaps it's time to consider another alternative. Partially or completely removing the aging and decaying blighted bridge to better utilize the portion of the river under it.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-feb-time-to-demolish-former-courthouse-parking-lot
Whatever is decided what good is it if you don't have watercraft economic opportunity to participate in it. Active legislation before the Jacksonville city council tonight 2014-560 and our CRA/DIA and will there be an amendment that says that any licensed and insured watercraft will be able to use this space without having their watercraft seized and impounded?
Does anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys 2014-412?
According to a CRA consultant this is a new 4.8 mile Rivers edge zone from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge. The Berkman town homes and Riverwalk along with a restricted public dock are also on pilings.
Visit Jacksonville!
Any changes would have to accommodate access to the Hyatt and the Berkman garage.
What would it cost to build a new bulkhead between the Berkman townhouses and the Hyatt's former Daniel State Office building and filling in.
The other cities look fantastic. I am sure there was much planning, and money involved to make this happen.
Yes. My guess is we're going to spend some money in any direction we go. If not, this set of bridges will fall in the river anyway. I hope money can be spent to create something that's better than what exists today. To do that, the discussion really needs to be intensified on finding/planning for the right mix of long term uses of this site.
The key here is we're going to be putting a lot of money into this no matter what we do. There's no way to avoid that. Given that, it's definitely time to think beyond straight replacement for a parking lot that serves a building that's already been shuttered.
Could the river walk be held to act as a bridge as seen in Baltimore? Seems like the piling system is different than the lot portion.
The site before the parking deck:
(https://www.floridamemory.com/fpc/reference/rc17915.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Jacksonville-Steamships/i-tf5nXvT/0/O/books.png)
An active maritime use would be great, like a seafood market. Kind of like the farmers market but with seafood, a big public market, that would be awesome. Would also improve our local food quality. Paddleboats would be hilarious to watch. Sometimes I'm down there and we have to wait for the train bridge, if it's a strong day you have to leave leave both engines in reverse just to hold position between the jetties. I can't imagine a paddleboat in that current. It would be more like a flume ride.
This would have been a great time to highlight the kayak trip several us took underneath this structure a few years ago (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,12678.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,12678.0.html))... but I don't know what happened to the pictures, which is a real shame.
I'm a little confused from the old photos. Is the Berkman garage and the townhouses not located on steel pilings? Looks like from the old photos that that was a dock too.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 10, 2015, 05:13:31 AM
Any changes would have to accommodate access to the Hyatt and the Berkman garage.
What would it cost to build a new bulkhead between the Berkman townhouses and the Hyatt's former Daniel State Office building and filling in.
Not exactly true. The access to the Berkman garage is on dry land.
I think it's possible to access the Berkman garage from the north and the south.
I also believe the pilings were reinforced and/or replaced as part of the Berkman development
Quote from: Bridges on February 10, 2015, 09:29:34 AM
I'm a little confused from the old photos. Is the Berkman garage and the townhouses not located on steel pilings? Looks like from the old photos that that was a dock too.
The Berkman garage and the Riverwalk Townhomes had their foundation reinforced for their construction.
Paddle boats would not be the best idea for this location, unless it was roped off. The current there is insane, not to mention there's quite a bit of traffic in the area, the speed limit doesn't go down to 25 until you get to the main street bridge, far too dangerous to be mixing w/paddle boats.
Yes, paddle boats would only work if you removed the two block parking lot on pilings north of Coastline Drive and somehow blocked it off a bit to separate it from the rest of the river.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2015, 10:19:15 AM
I think it's possible to access the Berkman garage from the north and the south.
There is currently only one access to the garage. It's off Liberty, but on dry land.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/robotic-cameras-aid-in-liberty-street-inspection/31194436
baby steps, but at least they are steps
Judging from the engineering reports by FDOT over the years (structurally deficient, basically intolerable requiring high priority of corrective action), and the fact that the state just DECREASED funding for our 8 county district from $21 million to $18 million, it appears that the decision to demolish the bridges has been made. It's just going to require time and gravity to do the work. In the meantime, the area will most likely remained closed to any sort of traffic. The city will never accept that liability.
Get used to the crumbling eyesore. I hope it doesn't make Khan change his mind about committing to this city.
As I see it, as long as Berkman access was maintained (which is I think all on solid land), and Hyatt access is kept (I think it's doable), then dump it. The only other thing that might get sticky: there is a concrete slab at the river walk adjacent to the parking garage that was supposed to be a restaraunt-obviously never built. The value of whomever owns that land will certainly plummet. However, I think it's still probably doable.
^ agree. And there may be no choice. I am stunned at the state budget for bridge repair.
And yet, driving home tonight, saw one of those huge tour buses parked next to the Hyatt on Newnan, within sight of the 3 TON LIMIT sign. Bus was pointed away from the river, no way it could get there without driving on the weight limited bridges. I'm betting those buses weigh more than 6,000 pounds.
Market and Coastline Drive is moving. Look at the bricks...
Probably no alternative to removing the Deck. All of it.
Kayak excursions underneath (no more! 8) ) revealed structure decay everywhere-and even the farthest Southeasterly corner section underneath the town houses not without visual clues.
Somehow,we're destined to more open space.
Quote from: Lunican on February 10, 2015, 07:12:12 PM
Market and Coastline Drive is moving. Look at the bricks...
PW has put sensors out to see if its still moving
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 10, 2015, 06:30:53 PM
^ agree. And there may be no choice. I am stunned at the state budget for bridge repair.
Too busy building new roads all over the state. I imagine the $2 billion it will take to eventually build the First Coast Expressway would go a long way to fixing some of our existing infrastructure that's falling apart. Just wait till it's time to replace the Mathews. No one is saving up anything for that one.
Quote from: coredumped on February 10, 2015, 11:19:59 AM
Paddle boats would not be the best idea for this location, unless it was roped off. The current there is insane, not to mention there's quite a bit of traffic in the area, the speed limit doesn't go down to 25 until you get to the main street bridge, far too dangerous to be mixing w/paddle boats.
Paddle Boats would be great at Unity Plaza. it's not just a retention pond.
Anyone going to the 2/11/15 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting at 9am in council chambers. The water taxi contract is on the agenda. Paddle boat contract next.
When the weather breaks still plan on doing a RICO loop in some of the most restricted Waterways in the state of Florida.
I am Downtown and why you aren't
Who's next?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2015, 09:32:21 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 10, 2015, 06:30:53 PM
^ agree. And there may be no choice. I am stunned at the state budget for bridge repair.
Too busy building new roads all over the state. I imagine the $2 billion it will take to eventually build the First Coast Expressway would go a long way to fixing some of our existing infrastructure that's falling apart. Just wait till it's time to replace the Mathews. No one is saving up anything for that one.
Other than getting hit by a boat it seems to be in pretty good shape, according to the inspection reports. Did they ever replace that one on Atlantic that was the worst rated bridge in the state for awhile?
this topic ought to become a petition.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 10, 2015, 09:08:56 AM
Paddleboats would be hilarious to watch. Sometimes I'm down there and we have to wait for the train bridge, if it's a strong day you have to leave leave both engines in reverse just to hold position between the jetties. I can't imagine a paddleboat in that current. It would be more like a flume ride.
Underneath the parking lot their isn't much of a current. That won't change if it is exposed to air. So, it would be fine for paddleboats. Wouldn't be able to explore as big an area like in Baltimore, but that parking lot area is big enough for a dumb little tourist thing. Obviously, you'd need a rope to keep paddlers away from the channel, which would be like a flume ride (that could be an up-charge). Of course, having a closed-off area shuts it down to regular boat traffic, so I'm not supporting the plan.
Quote from: Steve on February 10, 2015, 06:00:39 PM
The only other thing that might get sticky: there is a concrete slab at the river walk adjacent to the parking garage that was supposed to be a restaraunt-obviously never built. The value of whomever owns that land will certainly plummet. However, I think it's still probably doable.
The slab in front of the Berkman garage? I don't see how this would be a problem for that. They'd still have access to the parking garage, so people could get there. If anything, it would have a better view and more exclusive location. They wouldn't lose foot access, the building just wouldn't be right on the road.
Would it be too late to move the USS Adams to that area? I feel like it would be better suited there.
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/structures/DesignConf2006/Presentations/session20/Final-20Kerr.pdf
We know the bridges are structurally deficient, and have been for many years. We don't know the Sufficiency Rating. That will be interesting, since it determines (or at least it did when this report was presented in 2004) whether or not federal money is available.
Bridge sufficiency ratings are no longer public for fear of terrorism
^ water and gravity are the terrorists here. Some folks might have wanted to know about the structurally deficient rating on the whole area. You know, in case they were thinking of investing in downtown...
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/02/12/editorial-city-cant-wait-around-after-liberty.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2015-02-12&u=WlI+uS2dnrpUQEXzA1dC/Q0a72b012&t=1423772791
Hopefully this conversation is gaining traction.
apparently the City isn't waiting...funding 100% it seems
^what do you mean? Funding 100% to rebuild it?
funding the power repair
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-02-12/story/power-repairs-coming-2-weeks-city-expense-jacksonville-tells-liberty
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 12, 2015, 10:30:51 AM
Bridge sufficiency ratings are no longer public for fear of terrorism
Seriously? That's lame. And what are they going to do if I put in a public records request?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 13, 2015, 07:05:57 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 12, 2015, 10:30:51 AM
Bridge sufficiency ratings are no longer public for fear of terrorism
Seriously? That's lame. And what are they going to do if I put in a public records request?
I don't know...make one and let's find out :)
MR. BROWN, TEAR DOWN THESE BRIDGES!
If the parking lot is demolished, would the work that JEA is about to do (and COJ is about to pay for) to restore power have to be completely redesigned and rerouted?
No. Completely unrelated to the restoration of power to the Plaza Townhomes.
So power is routed strictly under roadway and not under parking lot?
The power that is being restored to the townhomes will not go under the parking lot. I'm sure there is some conduit down there for things like the guard shack, etc., but I doubt it's much.
Thanks for the great info you've provided on this topic.
As I understand it, under Homeland Security rules, there are certain parts of the reports about bridges that cannot be released to the public. I guess the fear concern is that people with bad intent could use structural info about bridges to know where to sabotage them and bring them down.
^yes. We don't want the terrorists to know that the parking lot is built on 50 year old piers. Ooops!
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 13, 2015, 11:03:26 AM
As I understand it, under Homeland Security rules, there are certain parts of the reports about bridges that cannot be released to the public. I guess the fear concern is that people with bad intent could use structural info about bridges to know where to sabotage them and bring them down.
What if that IS the terror plot?
"So you're saying we're not going to blow the bridges up?"
"No"
"Then how will we destroy them?"
"That's the best part! WE won't have to destroy them. In 20-30 years, they'll destroy themselves" *evil terrorist laughter*
I'm jumping in without reading the whole thread...
Is it accurate that the town homes are sinking...a little bird told me the owners are contemplating lawsuits?
Quote from: TheCat on February 13, 2015, 01:30:59 PM
I'm jumping in without reading the whole thread...
Is it accurate that the town homes are sinking...a little bird told me the owners are contemplating lawsuits?
a complete and utter fabrication. The townhomes were strongly reinforced prior to construction. The little bird, and I can guess who it is, probably meant to say that IF the Liberty Street debacle undermined the townhome piers in any way, obviously the owners would seek to be made whole. If the townhomes were sinking, the framing and stucco would be severely cracking and crumbling. That is not the case.
Quote from: Bridges on February 13, 2015, 11:29:32 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 13, 2015, 11:03:26 AM
As I understand it, under Homeland Security rules, there are certain parts of the reports about bridges that cannot be released to the public. I guess the fear concern is that people with bad intent could use structural info about bridges to know where to sabotage them and bring them down.
What if that IS the terror plot?
"So you're saying we're not going to blow the bridges up?"
"No"
"Then how will we destroy them?"
"That's the best part! WE won't have to destroy them. In 20-30 years, they'll destroy themselves" *evil terrorist laughter*
In that case, it's the small government crowd that doesn't want to pay taxes to fund things such as infrastructure maintenance that are the terrorists?
Since the water is not too deep under the parking deck, could they possibly tear down the deck and fill it in with dirt to make land? I obviously have no idea who expensive that would be. I would figure we would want that land for future convention center site.
It's actually pretty deep there
Quote from: vicupstate on February 10, 2015, 05:13:31 AM
Any changes would have to accommodate access to the Hyatt and the Berkman garage.
What would it cost to build a new bulkhead between the Berkman townhouses and the Hyatt's former Daniel State Office building and filling in.
The bulkhead would cost about $1000 per linear foot. The total cost would be about $2 to $3 million. If we did what DIA member Melody Bishop would like to do and build a Marina, the total cost would probably be about $10 million. It would cost several times that amount to drive pilings into the river to support any new building construction.
^does that mean the cheapest solution is to do the bulkhead and fill? Maybe move the bulkhead closer to shore first where it isn't so deep? That would leave the option to do a marina as well.
How much would it cost to leave the area barricaded?
In this video I talked about the history, visions, and challenges that are impacting the Northbank http://youtu.be/QFyzGzkCylU
$31 million Liberty Street project to take "a bite out of Downtown"
Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/02/17/31-million-liberty-street-project-to-delete-chunk.html
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2017, 09:44:32 AM
$31 million Liberty Street project to take "a bite out of Downtown"
Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/02/17/31-million-liberty-street-project-to-delete-chunk.html
Love the project, but it's disappointing to hear that the design might not include much beyond just wrapping the riverwalk around the new inlet.
The renders look like it's literally just a hole:
(https://media.bizj.us/view/img/10347004/unknown-4*750xx3264-1833-0-490.jpg)
That area is screaming for active use, but if the current is too strong for a natural water park or kayak launch, there's got to be a way to leverage it for passive use.
Pardon my MS Paint skills, but what about a pedestrian bridge overlooking a water feature?
(https://snag.gy/ZtH3Xx.jpg)
Pedestrian bridge could be something handsome like this:
(http://www.schnubel.com/en/content/1.bridges/12.PB4/1.Saadiyat-Island-Pedestrian-Bridge4.jpg)
Or something suspensiony that evokes the Dames Point:
(http://www.schnubel.com/en/content/1.bridges/8.GrandLyon/1.Passerelle-Grand-Lyon.jpg)
Or even something in line with the Southbank riverwalk:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/3900395153_gvmNdtN-L.jpg)
And we've heard a lot about using light for placemaking along the river, what better way to do that than with a dramatic, lit water feature along the riverwalk? It provides symmetry with Friendship Park on the south bank, naturally beautifies the riverwalk, and I'd argue, makes the old courthouse site even more marketable to a potential developer.
It's gonna be such a unique feature, that big hole taken out of the northbank, we've gotta find a better way to leverage it than just leaving it as is.
Monumentally wasted opportunity.
KenFSU's ideas look amazing. There's definitely an opportunity for place-making that would make the surrounding properties a major draw.
Can anyone opine on the chances that the old courthouse building might be demolished in the very near future, and the lot turned into a lightly landscaped green space while it awaits some sort of RFP. Then perhaps the city falls in love with a sizable chunk of green space in the heart of downtown along the waterfront and decides to make it permanent. Ultimately, we end up with this verdant, maybe lushly-landscaped amenity in the core of downtown?
I wouldn't call it a "hole". I would call it a vacuum. And the vacuum will most likely be filled by whatever takes the place of the old courthouse. I believe DIA was advocating for the Hyatt to make it a mini convention center. Any developer worth his salt would move as much out into the water as he could. The water is pretty shallow close to shore, so no reason not to build out a waterfront watering hole, etc. Plus, good rumor is that Morton's is returning to the city, and going into the Hyatt. Gets better and better...
Quote from: KenFSU on February 20, 2017, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2017, 09:44:32 AM
$31 million Liberty Street project to take "a bite out of Downtown"
Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/02/17/31-million-liberty-street-project-to-delete-chunk.html
Love the project, but it's disappointing to hear that the design might not include much beyond just wrapping the riverwalk around the new inlet.
The renders look like it's literally just a hole:
...
That area is screaming for active use, but if the current is too strong for a natural water park or kayak launch, there's got to be a way to leverage it for passive use.
Pardon my MS Paint skills, but what about a pedestrian bridge overlooking a water feature?
...
Pedestrian bridge could be something handsome like this:
...
Or something suspensiony that evokes the Dames Point:
...
Or even something in line with the Southbank riverwalk:
...
And we've heard a lot about using light for placemaking along the river, what better way to do that than with a dramatic, lit water feature along the riverwalk? It provides symmetry with Friendship Park on the south bank, naturally beautifies the riverwalk, and I'd argue, makes the old courthouse site even more marketable to a potential developer.
It's gonna be such a unique feature, that big hole taken out of the northbank, we've gotta find a better way to leverage it than just leaving it as is.
Great idea ! Like it a lot.
Good idea(s) Ken. I think a pedestrian/cycling bridge would be excellent.
Quote from: Jim on February 20, 2017, 02:31:04 PM
Monumentally wasted opportunity.
I wouldn't get too upset about it. Everything Ken mentioned and more can still be added incrementally. However, some visioning needs to be happen on what type of activities (hopefully interactive) that should ultimately be included in that area.
Looking at the original proposal, it truly lacks any architectural quality or feature at all. NONE. So I understand Caldera's comment. Hard to believe a $31 million project is, as it stands, completely devoid of even one architectural feature.
I like the pedestrian bridges, but if it's not part of the plan as it goes forward you'll never see it. Other 'priorities' will take it's place.
$31 million is a drop in the bucket for an infrastructure project. Take a look at the Overland Bridge project. That's closer to $300 million with no architectural features. The overpass at Atlantic and Kernan was close to $60 million with nothing special about it. They're essentially removing the failing deck over the river and rebuilding a portion of the Coastline Drive and Liberty Street bridges.
It looks like a $31 million demolition project. The cost of "building anything" in this instance is what, 15% of the total? They're going to remove all the broken crap, and square off the opening, correct? His point is that it is completely without any attempt at creativity. With which I agree.
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Coastline-Drive/i-XMF5MvZ/0/L/6279973_Page_1-L.jpg)
Roughly two blocks of bridges (Coastline Dr and Liberty Street) will be razed and replaced. In addition, the parking deck over the river will be demolished. Also, roughly a block of Market Street and Courthouse Drive will be rebuilt with a new riverwalk added. It's less about creativity and more about cost effective functionality. With that said, this does not mean creativity can't be added.
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 20, 2017, 03:23:33 PMPlus, good rumor is that Morton's is returning to the city, and going into the Hyatt. Gets better and better...
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2rfy4vm.jpg)
Quote from: MusicMan on February 20, 2017, 09:45:34 PM
It looks like a $31 million demolition project. The cost of "building anything" in this instance is what, 15% of the total? They're going to remove all the broken crap, and square off the opening, correct? His point is that it is completely without any attempt at creativity. With which I agree.
Like Lake said, they are replacing the Coastline and Market along the Hyatt. I'm no civil engineer but the river is like 40' deep right off of Coastline and the current rips through there, so I would assume that replacing that bridge isn't that simple.
Why not group the old courthouse into the demo as well? Get that land cleared to be more attractive for someone else.
^Seems like a separate project (also expensive) that would need to be funded with different funding sources, possibly delaying the immediate need to replace the failing bridges. I think it would be good for the city to make a decision on if they want to move the convention center to this area or not before possibly tossing millions to demo. If someone else wants to do something with the site, perhaps a deal can be worked out where the city doesn't have to pay for demolition, freeing its limited funds to go somewhere else.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 21, 2017, 09:13:20 AM
^Seems like a separate project (also expensive) that would need to be funded with different funding sources, possibly delaying the immediate need to replace the failing bridges. I think it would be good for the city to make a decision on if they want to move the convention center to this area or not before possibly tossing millions to demo. If someone else wants to do something with the site, perhaps a deal can be worked out where the city doesn't have to pay for demolition, freeing its limited funds to go somewhere else.
For sure. That makes sense. Would you like to see a convention center at that location, a park, or just allow developers to have at it?
IMO, we have enough parks on land. We could get a ton of more utilization out of them by properly investing and upgrading them.
As for this site, I'd like to see that uncovered section of the river become something more interactive, but that can happen regardless of what happens with the old courthouse and city hall annex buildings.
Personally, I think it makes all the sense in the world to add an exhibition hall (somewhere in the 100k to 150k square foot range with street level retail at ground level facing Bay and the river) to the Hyatt's existing meeting facilities and make the combined site the city's new convention center.
We literally have a 1,000 room convention center hotel going to waste. I'm willing to wager that most of our peer cities don't have anything close to a 1,000 room hotel in their downtowns. On any other site, you're not getting a 1,000 room hotel attached to it and anything that is attached to it, only competes against the existing subsidized public investment (Hyatt).
Quote from: thelakelander on February 21, 2017, 11:52:03 AM
IMO, we have enough parks on land. We could get a ton of more utilization out of them by properly investing and upgrading them.
As for this site, I'd like to see that uncovered section of the river become something more interactive, but that can happen regardless of what happens with the old courthouse and city hall annex buildings.
Personally, I think it makes all the sense in the world to add an exhibition hall (somewhere in the 100k to 150k square foot range with street level retail at ground level facing Bay and the river) to the Hyatt's existing meeting facilities and make the combined site the city's new convention center.
We literally have a 1,000 room convention center hotel going to waste. I'm willing to wager that most of our peer cities don't have anything close to a 1,000 room hotel in their downtowns. On any other site, you're not getting a 1,000 room hotel attached to it and anything that is attached to it, only competes against the existing subsidized public investment (Hyatt).
What about the garage and meeting space next door? I always thought they could retrofit that to add a lot more meeting space and they have a large swath of land there as well already connected to the Hotel.
IMO the time to do something is now while construction is in the process, if funding is an issue, try making the old site more attractive to a developer ie Khan or another local developer. Something more interactive for this site should have been already been planned. Once the city finishes this, it will take them at least 20 years before they think about making this site more interactive, then another 10 years before we see site renderings, 10 more years for construction starts. Also why don't we see our big business here in Jax like CXS, doing projects like Home Depot did in Atlanta?