A Jacksonville-to-Tampa Expressway On Its Way?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3852472777_L7VcB6x-L.jpg)
The Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) is on the lookout for adding additional highways to enhance statewide connectivity. This time, FDOT is gearing up to explore the feasibility of a Jacksonville-to-Tampa connection that would provide better accessibility to the Ocala and Gainesville areas as well.
Here are a few maps from the 2013 Tampa Bay to Northeast Florida Study Area Concept Report.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-feb-a-jacksonville-to-tampa-expressway-on-its-way
There is already an expressway from Tampa to Jax. It's called 301. Other than a few small towns that add at most 10 minutes to the drive it's haul ass from the north side of Ocala to Baldwin. Don't like it? Take I75 to I10. I don't see the benefit of trashing the heart of N. Florida with another interstate or expressway.
Can we just rename FDOT to FDOP, Florida Department of Pavement? That's all they ever seem to do, regardless of need.
A friend who used to work for FDOT used to say that they agency's view of a mixed transportation system was half asphalt and half concrete.
There is absolutely no need for a Jacksonville to Tampa highway.
I have to agree with the rest here we don't need more highways in Florida! What is wrong with the highways we have now? Why don't they add high-speed rail and get some folks off the highways?
This just baffles me!
It's so easy to drive to Tampa already!!
Doing an expressway from Jax to Tampa would kill countless gas stations along 301, as well as some restaurants.
I really don't see the point in this. You can make it to Tampa in under 4 hours now, without the lexus lanes.
Quote from: JohnnyK on February 04, 2015, 10:49:05 AM
I have to agree with the rest here we don't need more highways in Florida! What is wrong with the highways we have now? Why don't they add high-speed rail and get some folks off the highways?
I am just back from a week in London (which I in no way intend to compare to Jax) and it is amazing how efficient the high speed rail system is there. London to Paris or Brussels in around two hours (approximately 200-220 miles).
How nice would it be if Tampa (172 miles), Orlando (125 miles), or South FL (300-330) were 1.5-2.5 hour train ride away?
Quote from: Tacachale on February 04, 2015, 11:19:31 AM
I really don't see the point in this. You can make it to Tampa in under 4 hours now, without the lexus lanes.
sometimes in under 3 hours...made the trip from downtown Jax. to Westshore area today in 3:15...with a bathroom break and a drive-thru stop for breakfast.
Quote from: dp8541 on February 04, 2015, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: JohnnyK on February 04, 2015, 10:49:05 AM
I have to agree with the rest here we don't need more highways in Florida! What is wrong with the highways we have now? Why don't they add high-speed rail and get some folks off the highways?
I am just back from a week in London (which I in no way intend to compare to Jax) and it is amazing how efficient the high speed rail system is there. London to Paris or Brussels in around two hours (approximately 200-220 miles).
How nice would it be if Tampa (172 miles), Orlando (125 miles), or South FL (300-330) were 1.5-2.5 hour train ride away?
but that would ruin future toll road revenue estimates....... :o
Quote from: coredumped on February 04, 2015, 11:12:57 AM
Doing an expressway from Jax to Tampa would kill countless gas stations along 301, as well as some restaurants.
Yeah, but it would open up thousands of acres of virgin soil to new gas stations, restaurants, strip malls and single family subdivisions.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2015, 12:07:55 PM
Quote from: coredumped on February 04, 2015, 11:12:57 AM
Doing an expressway from Jax to Tampa would kill countless gas stations along 301, as well as some restaurants.
Yeah, but it would open up thousands of acres of virgin soil to new gas stations, restaurants, strip malls and single family subdivisions.
Oh, Florida.
While it does align with Florida's propensity to build yet more roads, I think the driver was the volume of JAX-Tampa traffic that has to traverse the Orlando cooridor.
Looking at it myself, I only see 2 options.
Incremental enhancements to 301 from I-10 to I-75 in Ocala.
Or a new dedicated ROW off of the First Coast Beltway near Green Cove Springs reaching Ocala through Camp Blanding.
The rest seemed too intrusive or disruptive to existing land plans or provided little economy of direction over the alternatives.
I have a client in Ocala and travel down there on a regular basis for a study I'm involved with. Outside of speed traps, the only place where congestion forces you to crawl is Starke.....especially during school arrival and departure periods. However, there's a bypass already in the works to deal with that issue. The idea of an expressway between Tampa and Jax, or the Heartland Parkway into the South Central area of the state, seem like overkill to me. Especially considering we're "broke".
(http://www.gulfreturns.com/wp-content/uploads/blogger/uploaded_images/heartland_parkway-799292.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2015, 12:07:55 PM
Quote from: coredumped on February 04, 2015, 11:12:57 AM
Doing an expressway from Jax to Tampa would kill countless gas stations along 301, as well as some restaurants.
Yeah, but it would open up thousands of acres of virgin soil to new gas stations, restaurants, strip malls and single family subdivisions.
check out the land holdings of Plum Creek....and their new sector plan....this reveals much.
plus, the folks in north Citrus County couldn't be more excited about enhanced connections to Tampa and Ocala!
Quote from: coredumped on February 04, 2015, 11:12:57 AM
Doing an expressway from Jax to Tampa would kill countless gas stations along 301, as well as some restaurants.
That is the reason we don't have a Starke bypass right now. A Starke bypass and the end of Lawtey would do the trick for the most part with some improvements on 301 but they will never happen because of the above thinking. They keep blocking it in Starke.
Build the toll road over the status quo there is now. Plus, the Suncoast really needs to be connected to 75 as a true alternative for getting to Tampa instead of getting off at 52 or 54.
LMAO at all the comments. So typical of MJ. Anyone actually read the report?
If many of you were the decision makers, Florida would be untouched land. Nothing but 2 lane rural roads everywhere.
Sure, I get that rail would be a great transportation mode for the state. AAF is the answer, and without taxpayer risk.
301 is unsafe, slow, and is a terrible route for trucking. Its a terrible commute that is only a decent option given its directness.
Will we ever move past being an auto-dependent auto-centric society? Catering to the automobile vs investing in mass transit systems..ie high speed rail, is just Florida's backwards thinking as usual. I fear we won't invest wisely until there arent even enought stretches of land available to even build highways, yet alone new rail. Less cars on the roadways saves money on so many levels it's insane to think how we build more roads that only add more cars, that feed the need for more roads. Ugh.
Recall the Governor Martinez era Jax/Tampa Toll Road proposal.
Quaint "NO TOLL ROAD!" bumper stickers.
Brannon/Chaffee (then dirt road,now key First Coast beltway component) was envisioned as the northern leg,the new roadway to cross Black Creek just west of Blanding Blvd and on it's meandering way from there.
Always,traffic "alleviation", meeting "projected" demands was the key headline,while development speculation surged.
Expanded development Vesting always occurs.
We can not manage to build such a roadway without the assumed development expansion.
Brannon/Chaffe and Lake Asbury #2 "Sector Plans",and St Johns County proceedings,all of which empowered the First Coast Beltway a classic case in point.( Lake Asbury Sector Plan #1 faced unexpected opposition to proposed beltway routing.......well....That Was Easy! ::) )
The Martinez era Jax Tampa Toll Road faced fierce and effective opposition in the Gainesville area. In response to opposition, public hearings shifted further east....further and further,until finally, Putnam County cheered the new concrete strip. Except the route was hardly Jax to "Tampa" at that point. 8)
It's a roughshod process for sure.Tick-Tack-Toe...........connecting the DOT. At some point,we might find a truly safe "Merge" Lane,or blessed Exit.
The DOT and proponents reference "Connectivity" in the face of another compelling "Connectivity" concept. The very concept of "Connectivity" was a part of a recent Constitutional Amendment that passed by a huge margin.
Note the emergence of the Osceola To Ocala Conservation Corridor ( O20)-basically a giant green hedge westerly of Jacksonville; "landscape scale"connectivity, linking National Forests, 'working' timber and agriculture lands,recreation,watershed, public lands,Northeast Florida Timberland Reserve.O2O recently further empowered thanks to Amendment One,which provides a level of guaranteed funding for the State's Conservation Lands program,fee simple acquisitions,easements.
O2O may not necessarily thwart Jax/Tamp 'connectivity' however routing would demand certain policy & design approach, likely including alignment with existing highways, less anticipated ancillary "Growth".
There are similar scenarios throughout the State- the O2O but one link in a Statewide Conservation Corridor placement.
A new era for DOT and a host of interests.
I for one would welcome this(probably in the minority) My question is what would the new highway be a 75 or a 95 spin off(i.e. I-295, I-275} or something else. Is 9B the start of I-795? Rail would be much better with a connection to UF to make it easier to get to Gator games in Gainesville. I wish the powers that be in the FDOT would actually seriously think about rail from Jax to Tampa. SIGH!!
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:32:41 PM
301 is unsafe, slow, and is a terrible route for trucking. Its a terrible commute that is only a decent option given its directness.
and yet I make the 200 mile trip to Tampa in 180 minutes....how is that slow?
Honestly, a Starke bypass would solve this problem and limiting development along 301. (Maybe get rid of Lawtey?)
Starke can take awhile to get through between 11-5:30 pm just due to the amount of trucks mixed with town traffic.
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 05, 2015, 12:00:47 AM
Will we ever move past being an auto-dependent auto-centric society? Catering to the automobile vs investing in mass transit systems..ie high speed rail, is just Florida's backwards thinking as usual. I fear we won't invest wisely until there arent even enought stretches of land available to even build highways, yet alone new rail. Less cars on the roadways saves money on so many levels it's insane to think how we build more roads that only add more cars, that feed the need for more roads. Ugh.
Want the short answer? Nope. But really, why is it such a problem to have automated electric cars, instead of combustible engines? We're 5 to 10 years away from this, and we should invest billions into trying to change lifestyles developed over the last 100 years? Again, nope.
I think urbanites have attempted to brainwash the rest of the country into believing that their personal lifestyle is the best for everyone else.
Me? I want my yard, my landscaping, my car, my 15-20 commute, myafter hours silence, and all the other luxuries the at suburban life affords me.
^ and having that lifetsyle is fine...but us urbanites shouldn't have to be subjected to highways destroying our neighborhoods to satisfy that lifestyle.
I don't mind people living the urban, suburban or rural lifestyle. To each his own. Having the ability to make your own choice is one of the reasons this is a great country. However, choice should come with responsibility. Problems (no matter what type of environment one prefers) tend to arise when people expect others to subsidize their preferred lifestyle for them.
Yeah, no offense, but that's one of the sillier comments in this discussion. If anything, the exact opposite is the truth: it's continually reinforced that the "suburban" lifestyle is the best, most desirable way to live, and that it's worth almost any cost to achieve.
In reality, there's plenty of room in this state for all types of lifestyles. But we shouldn't subsidize only one lifestyle and expect everyone to foot the bill.
And there's something of a false dichotomy here: you can have a yard, landscaping, a 20 minute commute and "quiet" fairly easily in an urban neighborhood.
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on February 05, 2015, 06:04:37 PM
Honestly, a Starke bypass would solve this problem and limiting development along 301. (Maybe get rid of Lawtey?)
Starke can take awhile to get through between 11-5:30 pm just due to the amount of trucks mixed with town traffic.
The $202 million Starke bypass is funded for construction in 2016.
(http://www.us301northflorida.com/sites/StarkeBypass/PublishingImages/US%20301%20Starke%20map.jpg)
more info: http://www.us301northflorida.com/sites/StarkeBypass/Pages/Home.aspx
Quote from: GatorShane on February 05, 2015, 11:26:19 AM
I for one would welcome this(probably in the minority) My question is what would the new highway be a 75 or a 95 spin off(i.e. I-295, I-275} or something else. Is 9B the start of I-795? Rail would be much better with a connection to UF to make it easier to get to Gator games in Gainesville. I wish the powers that be in the FDOT would actually seriously think about rail from Jax to Tampa. SIGH!!
There is no listing with AASHTO for this corridor. Since by definition it would be a point to point type of highway (as opposed to a bypass), and if FDOT wants it to have a federal road designation, it would probably be called Interstate 6.
There is a proposal to use the I-6 name for a planned road from Arcata, CA to Reno, NV to replace CA-299, but since it was proposed in 2012, it hasn't been funded.
9B will be signed I-795 after they finish the intersection with I-95. Based on current plans it will end at St Johns Parkway & Russell Sampson Road.
I can't find any information if the First Coast Beltway/Tollway will get a AASHTO defined number. While it will connect both I-10 and I-95 eventually, Gov. Scott allocated several million in the 2015 FDOT budget for ROW acquisition between Blanding Blvd and I-95. They can't sign it an Interstate until its 2 terminus points are finished, so I would imagine it will stay FL-23 well past 2020.
If they are serious about a north extension of the beltway into Nassau County to Yulee, it would probably be I-495.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 09:25:47 PM
^ and having that lifetsyle is fine...but us urbanites shouldn't have to be subjected to highways destroying our neighborhoods to satisfy that lifestyle.
I don't follow. Is this I-10 I-95 specific?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:32:41 PM
301 is unsafe, slow, and is a terrible route for trucking. Its a terrible commute that is only a decent option given its directness.
and yet I make the 200 mile trip to Tampa in 180 minutes....how is that slow?
You drive 65+ mph the entire way, thru Waldo and the others? Not buying 180 minutes.
It's not even the local/regional commuters, it's for commercial trucking.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2015, 09:44:42 PM
I don't mind people living the urban, suburban or rural lifestyle. To each his own. Having the ability to make your own choice is one of the reasons this is a great country. However, choice should come with responsibility. Problems (no matter what type of environment one prefers) tend to arise when people expect others to subsidize their preferred lifestyle for them.
Agree. But what delivered your food to your plate? The clothes your wearing? The other services and materials that urban life still requires?
It's the is huge misunderstanding that all of this highway spending is simply for rural and suburban folks, when really, it's for transportation for all goods, services, and citizens throughout the region.
Cold we have better land development codes? Absolutely. More up to date construction standards? Yes please.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 05, 2015, 10:10:50 PM
Yeah, no offense, but that's one of the sillier comments in this discussion. If anything, the exact opposite is the truth: it's continually reinforced that the "suburban" lifestyle is the best, most desirable way to live, and that it's worth almost any cost to achieve.
In reality, there's plenty of room in this state for all types of lifestyles. But we shouldn't subsidize only one lifestyle and expect everyone to foot the bill.
And there's something of a false dichotomy here: you can have a yard, landscaping, a 20 minute commute and "quiet" fairly easily in an urban neighborhood.
None taken of course. Not silly either, consider the latest trends and opinions in modern planning.
Every major metro region in the world has expensive highway systems thru and to/from their urban center. Infrastructure spending IS expensive, but so is defense spending and Social Security.
The US is so behind China and BRIC on infrastructure spending, its depressing.
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 07:04:08 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2015, 09:44:42 PM
I don't mind people living the urban, suburban or rural lifestyle. To each his own. Having the ability to make your own choice is one of the reasons this is a great country. However, choice should come with responsibility. Problems (no matter what type of environment one prefers) tend to arise when people expect others to subsidize their preferred lifestyle for them.
Agree. But what delivered your food to your plate? The clothes your wearing? The other services and materials that urban life still requires?
It's the is huge misunderstanding that all of this highway spending is simply for rural and suburban folks, when really, it's for transportation for all goods, services, and citizens throughout the region.
Cold we have better land development codes? Absolutely. More up to date construction standards? Yes please.
(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000vtHfQxrB.t8/s/750/750/Eklutna-Gravel.jpg)
Don't forget the rail and ships that did the heavy lifting......including the delivery of the raw materials used to build roads. Look, I'm not railing against "roads". I have a problem against unnecessary and unsustainable spending.
Right. But your railing opinion is that roadway spending is unnecessary and unsustainable.
We're not changing America over night. Weve built this country this way, and have to continue the systems to work. The process to change is through minor tweeks and small bumps along the way so that the systems continue to operate. I'm getting pretty broad here, but the concept still applies to this specific project.
I never said ALL roadway spending is unnecessary.
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 06:59:16 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:32:41 PM
301 is unsafe, slow, and is a terrible route for trucking. Its a terrible commute that is only a decent option given its directness.
and yet I make the 200 mile trip to Tampa in 180 minutes....how is that slow?
You drive 65+ mph the entire way, thru Waldo and the others? Not buying 180 minutes.
It's not even the local/regional commuters, it's for commercial trucking.
Um, "Waldo and the others" represent such an insignificant amount of roadway that they could practically be school zones and still not present a major delay on that trip. I'm guessing tufsu1 drives like most sentient Florida drivers (for better or worse) and goes 70 mph on 301 in the 65 mph zones between towns, and does 80 mph on 75.
As an unqualified statement, Jacksonville to Tampa (and vice versa) is absolutely a "3 hour drive."
I can make it from Jax to Tampa in 3 hours taking I-95 to I-4. The drive from my garage to my parent's driveway in Polk County typically takes me 2.5 hours. The only wildcard is getting caught up in traffic around the theme parks.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2015, 09:13:14 AM
I can make it from Jax to Tampa in 3 hours taking I-95 to I-4. The drive from my garage to my parent's driveway in Polk County typically takes me 2.5 hours. The only wildcard is getting caught up in traffic around the theme parks.
And for the next 6 years, construction of The Ultimate I-4.
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 06:56:20 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 09:25:47 PM
^ and having that lifetsyle is fine...but us urbanites shouldn't have to be subjected to highways destroying our neighborhoods to satisfy that lifestyle.
I don't follow. Is this I-10 I-95 specific?
Quote from: spuwho on February 05, 2015, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: GatorShane on February 05, 2015, 11:26:19 AM
I for one would welcome this(probably in the minority) My question is what would the new highway be a 75 or a 95 spin off(i.e. I-295, I-275} or something else. Is 9B the start of I-795? Rail would be much better with a connection to UF to make it easier to get to Gator games in Gainesville. I wish the powers that be in the FDOT would actually seriously think about rail from Jax to Tampa. SIGH!!
There is no listing with AASHTO for this corridor. Since by definition it would be a point to point type of highway (as opposed to a bypass), and if FDOT wants it to have a federal road designation, it would probably be called Interstate 6.
There is a proposal to use the I-6 name for a planned road from Arcata, CA to Reno, NV to replace CA-299, but since it was proposed in 2012, it hasn't been funded.
9B will be signed I-795 after they finish the intersection with I-95. Based on current plans it will end at St Johns Parkway & Russell Sampson Road.
I can't find any information if the First Coast Beltway/Tollway will get a AASHTO defined number. While it will connect both I-10 and I-95 eventually, Gov. Scott allocated several million in the 2015 FDOT budget for ROW acquisition between Blanding Blvd and I-95. They can't sign it an Interstate until its 2 terminus points are finished, so I would imagine it will stay FL-23 well past 2020.
If they are serious about a north extension of the beltway into Nassau County to Yulee, it would probably be I-495.
Thanks a lot. I appreciate that.
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 06:59:16 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:32:41 PM
301 is unsafe, slow, and is a terrible route for trucking. Its a terrible commute that is only a decent option given its directness.
and yet I make the 200 mile trip to Tampa in 180 minutes....how is that slow?
You drive 65+ mph the entire way, thru Waldo and the others? Not buying 180 minutes.
It's not even the local/regional commuters, it's for commercial trucking.
I drive to Tampa and Sarasota quite a few times a year. It takes almost exactly 3 hours to get from my driveway to Channelside (downtown Tampa).
This graphic is pretty entertaining.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3852472941_twJ3b4L-800x1000.jpg)
These projections rely on the same flawed traffic forecast modeling which have predicted that current traffic levels should be increasing by double digits each year, when they have actually been declining since 2007. These flawed traffic forecasting and trip generation forecasting models have been used to validate the need to build more roadways, but when you actually look at the data it's clear that there is far too much capacity for not only today... but for 30 years from now. There are some critical bottlenecks that need to be addressed, but for the most part much of the brand new road construction is hard to justify.
For instance, in the City of Jacksonville... out of 710 road links measured (these are simply sections of a road... as an example, Roosevelt Blvd from Edgewood to McDuff would be one 'road link'), there are only 20 sections of roadway that exceed 100% of daily capacity. That's less than 3%. So, about 3% of the roadways in Jacksonville handle more traffic than they are designed to handle. The overwhelming majority are under 50% of capacity.
Roadway spending and infrastructure maintenance is 100% necessary, but let's call a spade a spade and realize that this proposed highway is really being driven by enhancing the economic land owned by influential private parties... because the results (especially when you realize that the taxes being collected from the resulting development do not come close to paying for the required maintenance of said infrastructure) make you question whether it's a good investment.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 06, 2015, 09:26:50 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2015, 09:13:14 AM
I can make it from Jax to Tampa in 3 hours taking I-95 to I-4. The drive from my garage to my parent's driveway in Polk County typically takes me 2.5 hours. The only wildcard is getting caught up in traffic around the theme parks.
And for the next 6 years, construction of The Ultimate I-4.
I know my way through Orlando's backstreets and collectors pretty well. If it gets too bad, I'll use them to get around the hot spots. They'll probably add another 15-30 minutes to the commute but save me about $10-$12 in tolls each way.
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 06:59:16 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:32:41 PM
301 is unsafe, slow, and is a terrible route for trucking. Its a terrible commute that is only a decent option given its directness.
and yet I make the 200 mile trip to Tampa in 180 minutes....how is that slow?
You drive 65+ mph the entire way, thru Waldo and the others? Not buying 180 minutes.
It's not even the local/regional commuters, it's for commercial trucking.
It is actually about 195 miles the way I go....drive 65-75 mph on the majority of US 301...speed limit through Starke, Waldo, Lawtey, and a few others....and then 70-80 on the interstate (I-10, I-75, and I-275).
And I've actually made it in just under 3 hours a few times
Quote from: fieldafm on February 06, 2015, 09:59:23 AM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 06:59:16 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:32:41 PM
301 is unsafe, slow, and is a terrible route for trucking. Its a terrible commute that is only a decent option given its directness.
and yet I make the 200 mile trip to Tampa in 180 minutes....how is that slow?
You drive 65+ mph the entire way, thru Waldo and the others? Not buying 180 minutes.
It's not even the local/regional commuters, it's for commercial trucking.
I drive to Tampa and Sarasota quite a few times a year. It takes almost exactly 3 hours to get from my driveway to Channelside (downtown Tampa).
This graphic is pretty entertaining.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3852472941_twJ3b4L-800x1000.jpg)
These projections rely on the same flawed traffic forecast modeling which have predicted that current traffic levels should be increasing by double digits each year, when they have actually been declining since 2007. These flawed traffic forecasting and trip generation forecasting models have been used to validate the need to build more roadways, but when you actually look at the data it's clear that there is far too much capacity for not only today... but for 30 years from now. There are some critical bottlenecks that need to be addressed, but for the most part much of the brand new road construction is hard to justify.
For instance, in the City of Jacksonville... out of 710 road links measured (these are simply sections of a road... as an example, Roosevelt Blvd from Edgewood to McDuff would be one 'road link'), there are only 20 sections of roadway that exceed 100% of daily capacity. That's less than 3%. So, about 3% of the roadways in Jacksonville handle more traffic than they are designed to handle. The overwhelming majority are under 50% of capacity.
Roadway spending and infrastructure maintenance is 100% necessary, but let's call a spade a spade and realize that this proposed highway is really being driven by enhancing the economic land owned by influential private parties... because the results (especially when you realize that the taxes being collected from the resulting development do not come close to paying for the required maintenance of said infrastructure) make you question whether it's a good investment.
Can anyone make the link between these influential landowners, and the decision makers at FDOT?
Everyone says it likes it's so obvious. Just curious.
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/photos/blogs/21541/Picture%207.png)
Here's a Florida Trend map showing the holdings of Florida's largest landowners. Plum Creek Timber, Rayonier and Bascom Southern have big chunks of property in or near the study area. Are any of these entities looking into new uses for their property?
We have several examples locally (especially around the First Coast Expressway, JTB, SR 9B, etc.) but I remember a few years back, J.D. Alexander took some heat for pushing the need for the Heartland Parkway.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Heartland_Parkway_corridor_study_area.png)
QuoteJ.D. Alexander, the now termed Frostproof legislator, has gotten what he wants time and again from Florida's taxpayers. Most of this year's Alexander headlines have related to his quest to create a new 12th state University in Lakeland, but his slipping of the Heartland Parkway into this year's budget may have greater ramifications.
The following is from the Tampa Bay Times:
"Despite a $1.4 billion budget shortfall and at times heated rhetoric about finding ways to spend fewer state dollars, budget writers have tucked $34.7 million into this year's proposed spending plan for the design of a portion of the Heartland Parkway — a long-dormant road project in Central Florida."
First proposed in 2005, J.D. Alexander met repeatedly with state officials about the proposed highway. The Heartland Economic, Agricultural and Rural Task Force, or HEART, was founded in 2005 to push for the road. The non-profit organization consulted heavily with Alexander on lobbying and strategy for the road.
Charlie Crist, citing environmental concerns, very low projected traffic volume and more pressing transportation needs, wisely killed the project in 2007. The Parkway would run through largely rural areas providing little in the way of transportation benefit to Florida's overburdened urban counties. While the road might stimulate growth through towns such as Arcadia, Wauchula and Bartow near the highway, the only way the highway could be justified would be with massive development of parts of the state that the post 1970 population boom has clearly passed by. Even more worrying would be the negative affect the road would have on the developing towns that lie on US 27, the primary route from Polk County to southern Florida.
When the legislature in 1988 authorized the extension of Florida's Turnpike from Wildwood to Lebanon Station in Levy County and the upgrading of US19/27 northwards toward Tallahassee, an outcry came from urban counties. The extension was never built and instead the focus shifted towards toll roads such as the Apopka Connector, Veterans Expressway and Polk Parkway in populated areas.
Many of the areas that the Heartland Parkway would traverse between southwest Florida and Polk County are as sparsely populated as the Big Bend region of the state, the area where a similar project has been ignored for over twenty years. The rationale advocated by Alexander and his allies is that of a hurricane evacuation route that would also stimulate economic development and population growth in the corridor around the highway.
Rick Scott's decision to embrace this expensive boondoggle has also exposed his continued preference for cronyism over merit in determining whom he involves in major decisions. Moreover, Alexander stands to benefit directly from the highway. Again here we quote the Tampa Bay Times:
The proposed 110-mile road stretches through the ranches, farms and swamps of inland Florida, from Collier County to I-4. In real estate, that's a good thing. Land prices typically skyrocket for property adjacent to newly built transportation facilities.
Nearly all of Blue Head Ranch, a massive piece of property controlled by one of Alexander's companies, lies directly in the path of the proposed roadway. The company, Atlantic Blue, plans 30,000 residential units and 11 million square feet of nonresidential development on 7,500 acres of the ranch, according to its website.
The Heartland Parkway has been compared in its size, scope and possible impact to that of the Suncoast Parkway which was completed in 2001, but some very staggering differences are apparent. The Suncoast Parkway was built as an important traffic reliever for US 19 which was becoming over-burdened with cars in the late 1990s. It also connected to the Veterans Expressway, giving easy access to Tampa International Airport for residents of Citrus, Hernando and Pasco Counties. The Heartland Parkway serves no such purposes.
This appropriation comes as real transportation needs in urban areas are being ignored. In some cases Gov. Scott and his administration seek to solve Florida's infrastructure issues by levying expensive user fees on motorists in the form of increased tolls and more "express lanes." Existing express lanes in Miami-Dade and Hillsborough counties continue to to see steep increases in tolls, while new lanes along I-95 and I-595 in Broward County are under construction. Meanwhile, toll lanes along I-295 in Duval County and I-4 in Orange/Seminole counties are being seriously contemplated. These areas need new roads and other solutions to the pressing transportation needs of their areas, but instead are finding half solutions from state government.
While the Heartland Parkway may ultimately be useful for the counties it would run through, it is a matter of opportunity costs. With so many highways in urban areas needing enhancement or replacement, we cannot afford to waste money on this project. That is not to mention the potential environmental damage from the road, which would cut through marshland and other sensitive areas, damaging Florida's fragile ecosystem.
http://thepoliticalhurricane.com/2012/07/10/florida-cannot-afford-the-heartland-parkway/
Interesting read. Deseret only gave AAF a hard time becuase no one had discussed ANY planning with them at the beginning. Based on their posture it appeared they wanted to develop their land where it made sense to do so. (Closer to Osceola Parkway) It seemed tbey were perfectly happy raising cattle on their land.
The US is littered with roads to nowhere because something with influence convinced a decision maker to make it happen when it made no sense.
Chickasaw Turnpike in southern OK comes to mind.
$37 Million can pay for alot if things and it is clear this was a political favor to someone who supported Scott. But road "planning" is a long way from actual construction.
^He asked if anyone could make a link between these influential landowners and the decision makers. All I provided was one example of a link. I'm sure if I or anyone else took additional time, we'd find a lot more. Heck, I think it would be a harder time proving that major projects like the First Coast Expressway and Wekiva Parkway, etc. aren't politically influenced.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2015, 10:20:48 AM
^He asked if anyone could make a link between these influential landowners and the decision makers. All I provided was one example of a link. I'm sure if I or anyone else took additional time, we'd find a lot more. Heck, I think it would be a harder time proving that major projects like the First Coast Expressway and Wekiva Parkway, etc. aren't politically influenced.
Do you really think Ringhaver (RingPower) wants this road? Sure, he'll make some money on the construction equipment. Reinhold Corp? Gustafasons?
For it would likely be Silverleaf (Whites Ford Timber) and maybe St Joe (Rivertown). But that's adjacent to I95.
What's the connection with FCE?
The main reason the study area for the Tampa-Jax corridor is so wide at the north end is Plum Creek...and the ONLY reason why the Heartland Parkway is being considered is because of the influence of a few major landowners.
Now maybe this is good planning and foresight....or as southside noted earlier, perhaps its the chicken and egg thing....I just question who is the chicken.
Bad idea...I dont like it.
If further traction and continued forward project movement,at some point,the window of opportunity for the legally binding "No Build" option will appear.
Often missed Exit.
We are currently building an outer beltway from I-95 south of WGV to I-95 at the current Yulee exit. The closest approach between this beltway and I-75 would be just to the north of the Blanding Interchange. This could be a good starting point for a limited access highway from Jacksonville to Tampa.
It is likely the Outer Beltway could be designated as I-895. The best way connect Jacksonville to Tampa is to use this Outer Beltway, I-10 and I-75 in conjunction with a new spur. This spur could be designated as either I-795 or I-895 and run form Jacksonville's Outer beltway with the intercept at point a couple of miles northwest of the Blanding Boulevard Interchange to I-75 with an intercept at a point between the cities of Alachua and Gainesville.
It would be likely that I-75 would need to be widened to 8 lanes (4 each way) from the intercept point to I-275 in Tampa. All the needed construction and improvements would be a part of the interstate system and should be eligible for federal funding of between 75% and 90% of the project cost. Such a project could cut 30 minutes off of travel times from Jacksonville to Gainesville, Ocala and Tampa. This would also allow for new industries in central Florida along the I-75 corridor to have better access to the ports at Jacksonville and Fernandina Beach.
It's not a given that a north leg of the First Coast Expressway will be built between I-10 and I-95. It's still a dream by some at this point.
Ironic that at the end of Back to the Future when Doc said "Roads? Where we're going, we won't need any roads" he was talking about the year 2015.
Quote from: brucef58 on February 15, 2015, 06:24:39 AM
We are currently building an outer beltway from I-95 south of WGV to I-95 at the current Yulee exit. The closest approach between this beltway and I-75 would be just to the north of the Blanding Interchange. This could be a good starting point for a limited access highway from Jacksonville to Tampa.
It is likely the Outer Beltway could be designated as I-895. The best way connect Jacksonville to Tampa is to use this Outer Beltway, I-10 and I-75 in conjunction with a new spur. This spur could be designated as either I-795 or I-895 and run form Jacksonville's Outer beltway with the intercept at point a couple of miles northwest of the Blanding Boulevard Interchange to I-75 with an intercept at a point between the cities of Alachua and Gainesville.
It would be likely that I-75 would need to be widened to 8 lanes (4 each way) from the intercept point to I-275 in Tampa. All the needed construction and improvements would be a part of the interstate system and should be eligible for federal funding of between 75% and 90% of the project cost. Such a project could cut 30 minutes off of travel times from Jacksonville to Gainesville, Ocala and Tampa. This would also allow for new industries in central Florida along the I-75 corridor to have better access to the ports at Jacksonville and Fernandina Beach.
FCE will start from I-95, north of the IGP interchange (not south), and will connect to I-10 at the Cecil Commerce Center (Branan-Field Chaffee Road).
http://firstcoastexpressway.com/ (http://firstcoastexpressway.com/)
The project is be funded by the State of Florida and Florida's Turnpike Enterprise, and not directly by federal funds. There are no publicly announced plans to designate the corridor as interstate. If there were federal funds were to be used, there would likely be a need for a state match.
I appreciate that you're thinking/discussing options about how to connect, but your post was a bit inaccurate.
Quote from: copperfiend on February 15, 2015, 09:13:53 AM
Ironic that at the end of Back to the Future when Doc said "Roads? Where we're going, we won't need any roads" he was talking about the year 2015.
+1000
Quote from: spuwho on February 07, 2015, 09:11:01 AM
Chickasaw Turnpike in southern OK comes to mind.
Maybe so, but the Chickasaw actually serves some purposes:
The former freight rail line Eastern Oklahoma Railroad/Santa Fe was pulled up.
Ada on the east was the junction and is the capital of the Chickasaw Nation
The turnpike itself is short, and much of it just 2 lanes wide, but it cuts off many miles from the older route.
It ties Ada to the Sulphur National Recreation Area, formerly Chickasaw National Park, where many work.
It also ties Ada to the park and it's recreational City of Davis, which is where the Amtrak train stops, Turner Falls, Falls Creek, Travertine Creek and the Arbuckle Mountains are located. In our area it would be like paralleling Blanding with a two lane limited access, high speed 70/75 mph toll road that angled over to Starke cutting the distance to Gainesville. Not a heck of a lot in the middle, but a decent cluster on each end.
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:32:41 PM
LMAO at all the comments. So typical of MJ. Anyone actually read the report?
If many of you were the decision makers, Florida would be untouched land. Nothing but 2 lane rural roads everywhere.
......and some decades after Governor Martinez era "Jax -Tampa" attempt- a dandy "Conservation Corridor",huge swaths of Rural Lifestyle and suprisingly dynamic,profitable associated development and demand,Timberlands,Agriculture,Recreation,Water Supply,Air Quality and Associated Credits.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2015, 10:20:48 AM
^He asked if anyone could make a link between these influential landowners and the decision makers. All I provided was one example of a link. I'm sure if I or anyone else took additional time, we'd find a lot more. Heck, I think it would be a harder time proving that major projects like the First Coast Expressway and Wekiva Parkway, etc. aren't politically influenced.
Are you kidding?
Recall I have provided Official Record Book/Page connection to key First Coast events. Even Calvin Burney trip up;the erroneous image of Brannon Chaffe as viable Blanding alleviation; a certain n umber of vehicles (in the tens of thousands) that would utilize the new BC facility "as soon as it opens",actually referring to ADT over a period of time,as a result of the development the new facility would spur-you know,the misquote the Times Union backed away from. Of course,that was some time ago,and even now,no doubt so many go numb.
An internet forum is obviously lacking in altering outcome of some things. Probably a good thing.
Lake you now have a Seat,exactly and perfectly timed to First Coast Beltway Outcome No Matter. That was easy!
The North half of Section 19- the Northerly leg.
Reinhold Corp. Lake Asbury Sector Plan 1 & 2 (1 curiously deemed unauthorized).
Planners & Consultants- see connections between Brannon Chaffe Sector Plan & Lake Asbury Sector Plan ("1" & 2). For starters.
And why would development not be a key driver,even though politically,the Beltway was born via "Stand Alone" Brannon Chaffee so successfully sold to as viable "alternative" to Blanding to then current roadway users?
The Clay development driver even a factor in the placement of a DOT Director. Hard name to spell.
It's rather hilarious to see this discourse here. Probably worth higher profile effort.
I must concede to the Beltway Boosters - in fact the Outer Outer Beltway will in fact contribute to regional network alleviation- circumventing traffic load out of core Duval. No wonder I witnessed Blue hairs in Avondale touting the FC Beltway- investments notwithstanding.
The facility will enable white flight.
The Re-Routing of First Coast in deference to State Conservation Lands/Ravines Conservation Area was a historical shift for the FDOT,WMD and others,a policy reflected in Jax Tampa routing.
Onward!
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/289740-bill-galvano-transportation-plan-teed-up
Sending the Suncoast up to Georgia near US 19 makes almost no sense. There is literally nothing on US 19/98 north of Citrus.
I would much prefer the Coastal Connector plan and major upgrades along 301 north (like the Starke and Baldwin Bypasses) and limit development along 301 in rural areas. 75 has been an absolute mess of recent years from Ocala to Tampa, and especially around the Turnpike. An easier connection for JAX-Gainesville-Ocala-Brooksville-Tampa-St. Pete would be beneficial to the state by relieving traffic on 75, I-4 and 275 in downtown Tampa.
It makes sense if you have land penetrated by this highway....so you can make money from it being developed!
Wait, so Republicans want to spend taxpayer dollars on expanded roads and expressways that would benefit their buddies that bought land cheap in those areas in advance? Are these by any chance friends of Lenny? ::)
If a road is going to be built between Jax to Tampa, the easiest way is just to go down the US 301 then cross over to I-75 north of Ocala near CR 326.
301 has 200' of R/W, a Limited Access road could be built within the existing R/W with frontage roads on each side for local traffic. It would require a few more by-passes, like the one being completed around Starke. It would also need bridges at each major and some minor crossings. Bridges would also need to be added for wildlife crossings as well. This is really the only way to add a major new roadway with minimal impacts on the existing environment. Any new alignment will not be built without approval first of all of the environmental groups.
But we already have 301 and it does its job well. I worked in St Pete for 2 years and commuted from Jax every other week, usually jumped on 301 near Keystone Heights, south of Waldo. But there was no good way to get from Jax to 301 without going way out of the way. What would be more useful would be to extend 9b straight SE down to Hawthorne, then improve 301 from there south to Ocala as mentioned. This would also give a good route from Jax to Gainesville and would be a great way for travelers passing through to skip the Orlando mess.
SR 23, the outer beltway, FCX, First Coast Express, is better to 301. The problem is that it is a new alignment and would take at least a decade to get approved if you could even get it improved. EIS required, R/W to buy, etc. You might have to buy some R/W on the US 301 corridor, but mostly just small pieces and maybe a few town by-passes, like is being completed in Starke. Much easier to get approved and permitted, less public resistance.
New alignments are hard and take lots of time. I know they are talking about in Tallahassee now, but that is politicians, not the folks who do this every day. FCX really got started around 2005 or so and it still has a long way to go before anyone can drive on it, expect the section from I-10 to Blanding.
FCX really got started around 2005 or so and it still has a long way to go before anyone can drive on it, [except] the section from I-10 to Blanding.
True.
Talk about FCX dates back at least 30 years. But everyone is correct that it takes a lot of time to get massive infrastructure projects like this off the ground, funded and constructed.