Who's Downtown Is Ahead? Jacksonville's or Tampa's?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3788026030_L9jKk2S-L.jpg)
Florida's first major cities have more in common than one would imagine in the rise, fall and rebirth of their historic downtown cores. With that in mind, there may be tools and ideas that one community has successfully implemented that the other could benefit from.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-jan-whos-downtown-is-ahead-jacksonvilles-or-tampas
Honestly I think they are pretty much tied. Tampa may be slightly ahead (current leadership being the single biggest reason). The Selmon Greenway opens in a few months and there are several other significant infrastructure projects that are approved and funded:
http://cltampa.com/politicalanimal/archives/2015/01/07/transforming-tampa-bay-tampas-finally-getting-its-cycling-act-together#.VL9lRmNVK1F
Tampa no doubt!
Tactical Urbanism! Enjoyed the comparison. Just asking and not picking on anyone but didn't Don Shea past Executive Director of the Civic Council and former DIA (Downtown Investment Authority) board member come from Tampa. Didn't Ron Barton former JEDC (Jacksonville Economic Development Commission) leave Jax and go to Tampa? tufsu1 didn't you come from Tampa. Who gets the next pick? Would love to hear about the legislation that is being created that allows all these positive benefits. Anybody feel sorry for the Baltimore guys? 2014-412
Appears from the pics more watercraft options from the water in Tampa. We know that is just the opposite in Jacksonville.
What is the situation with Uber and Lyft in Tampa. 2014-665 was deferred in Rules yesterday. Active legislation.
Both Uber and Lyft serve Tampa:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/10-things-to-understand-about-lyft-and-uber/2202683
Tampa, by far.
When I moved here nine years ago, downtown Jax. was slightly ahead and had all the momentum. Then the recession hit.
Tampa has come out in better shape and Jax. is severely hampered by still unresolved pension issues. Couple that with a Mayor and City Council that are strongly focused on the urban core, Tampa has been able to make great strides in the past few years.
At this point, Tampa's downtown is ahead and appears to have all the momentum. That said, recent announcements for downtown Jax. show glimmers of hope and my understanding is that there are more announcements teed up in the coming months.
I take regular trips down to Tampa and they are ahead.
Growing up in Tampa, I have to agree with most of the above statements: Tampa is ahead. Much of the stuff highlighted in Tampa was there in the late 80's-90's, it isn't just developing or has been developed in the past 10 years. Also, I know the comparison is between the two downtowns but I do have to say that I think what contributes to Tampa's downtown is the development of the surrounding areas that happened in the late 80's and into the 90's. The redevelopment of Ybor (although I do miss the old Ybor) and the development of Channelside, SOHO, Hyde Park (late 80's), etc. This contributes to a sense of a strong urban core, which I really would like to see Jax keep trying to move toward. Tampa tightened up its urban growth boundary and took other steps to incentivize core development, love to see more policies like that in Jax...
And I also believe USF has some kind of campus in DT Tampa.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2015, 09:12:59 AM
Jax. is severely hampered by still unresolved pension issues.
That's a pretty weak excuse. There are a myriad of things Jacksonville could do that in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the funding of pensions.
Im surprised you didn't mention jacksonvilles bike share when comparing apples to apples:
http://jacksonville.hyatt.com/en/hotel/activities/hotel-activities/bike-hyatt.html
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=22116.0
So, score that as a tie :) I wish we had bike lanes though.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on January 21, 2015, 09:49:41 AM
And I also believe USF has some kind of campus in DT Tampa.
not quite...they have a medical reserach facility (CAMLS) and are planning to build a med school as part of Jeff Vinik's Channelside redevelopment. For more on Vink's plans, check out this cool website
http://tampawaterfront2020.com/
Quote from: finehoe on January 21, 2015, 09:56:42 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2015, 09:12:59 AM
Jax. is severely hampered by still unresolved pension issues.
That's a pretty weak excuse. There are a myriad of things Jacksonville could do that in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the funding of pensions.
much of what downtown Tampa has done over the past five years has required capital investments from the City. That is something seemingly unattainable in Jacksonville right now given our long-term budget forecast.
First, thank you for the great article. I've been waiting for something like this.
While there are strong similarities as this article highlighted, there really is no comparison (currently)...it's Tampa all the way. I lived on Harbour Island and could walk/bike to just about everything in these photos. While certainly not perfect by any means, downtown Tampa is compact and has an energy/vibe that Jax hasn't been able to create yet. IMO, the following help to make downtown Tampa the clear winner:
1. Many more residential areas, including Harbour Island, Channelside district, Davis Islands and Bayshore, which are not considered to be in the downtown core, but close enough.
2. University of Tampa and the newer USF Medical Research facility (Medical School in the future)
3. Convention Center. Without it, the Embassy Suites and Marriott would not exist. The convention center has a large impact on downtown Tampa.
4. Amalie Arena. This is more about the location of the arena in comparison to Jax. It also helps to host 40 NHL games per year.
We all know Jax has great potential, but it has some catching up to do.
N.B. - whose*
Quote from: coredumped on January 21, 2015, 10:00:31 AM
Im surprised you didn't mention jacksonvilles bike share when comparing apples to apples:
http://jacksonville.hyatt.com/en/hotel/activities/hotel-activities/bike-hyatt.html
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=22116.0
So, score that as a tie :) I wish we had bike lanes though.
Jacksonville does not have bike share. JTA applied for a TIGER grant last year to fund it and a Skyway extension but didn't win. One day, we'll get there though.
Quote from: stephendare on January 21, 2015, 10:24:00 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2015, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: finehoe on January 21, 2015, 09:56:42 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2015, 09:12:59 AM
Jax. is severely hampered by still unresolved pension issues.
That's a pretty weak excuse. There are a myriad of things Jacksonville could do that in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the funding of pensions.
much of what downtown Tampa has done over the past five years has required capital investments from the City. That is something seemingly unattainable in Jacksonville right now given our long-term budget forecast.
the validity of which, no one in this town seems capable of challenging.
If I tell you that I am only going to budget 15 dollars a month for transportation, despite making 8 thousand dollars a month in income, then according to my budget forecast, I can only 'afford' to finance a small tricycle to get around on. Maybe a homemade skateboard.
Stealing a bike might be an option, depending on if a pawn shop had some reasonably priced bolt cutters.
But just because I have decided to pretend that there is no money for anything (except of course a thirty million dollar billboard) doesn't mean that that is the 'truth'.
Its true because I've made up that ridiculous rule and never reexamined it.
Yea I say if the City has tens of millions to build a billionaire some stupid new billboards, I mean videotrons for the record book, then yes, the City has more money than it's capable of admitting to fund improvements to downtown.
Quote from: stephendare on January 21, 2015, 10:24:00 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2015, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: finehoe on January 21, 2015, 09:56:42 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 21, 2015, 09:12:59 AM
Jax. is severely hampered by still unresolved pension issues.
That's a pretty weak excuse. There are a myriad of things Jacksonville could do that in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the funding of pensions.
much of what downtown Tampa has done over the past five years has required capital investments from the City. That is something seemingly unattainable in Jacksonville right now given our long-term budget forecast.
the validity of which, no one in this town seems capable of challenging.
If I tell you that I am only going to budget 15 dollars a month for transportation, despite making 8 thousand dollars a month in income, then according to my budget forecast, I can only 'afford' to finance a small tricycle to get around on. Maybe a homemade skateboard.
Stealing a bike might be an option, depending on if a pawn shop had some reasonably priced bolt cutters.
But just because I have decided to pretend that there is no money for anything (except of course a thirty million dollar billboard) doesn't mean that that is the 'truth'.
Its true because I've made up that ridiculous rule and never reexamined it.
Regarding bike infrastructure, Monday's article applies well here. Below, a DT Tampa image from a 2010 MJ article, shortly after the installation of bike lanes....via changing lane widths with paint.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Tampa-Dec-2010/i-nn9SDKT/0/L/P1430577-L.jpg)
Same concept as what has taken place on Jefferson and Broad Streets. Just using the paint for a different mode:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Roads-and-Bridges/Jefferson-Broad-Street/i-VFFDd6X/0/L/P1730995-L.jpg)
A little extra paint could easily be applied on roads (like the examples below) throughout Jax's core for minimal expense. We just need the will power.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1386653580_fmMmkWk-L.jpg)
Myrtle Avenue(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Park-Street-Brooklyn/i-XJnQSRz/0/L/P1450899-L.jpg)
Park Street - Yeah, traffic would move just fine if this were a two-lane road.(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Jacksonville-Julia-Street/i-f2bHJkg/0/L/P1220101-L.jpg)
Julia Street - lots of pavement waiting for a rush hour that doesn't exist....Oh, two more examples of extra paint in Orlando and New Orleans...
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Street-Scenes/College-Park-Orlando/i-qDKMBTx/0/L/P1370213-L.jpg)
College Park in Orlando.(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/New-Orleans-Warehouse-District/i-SXNK2L6/0/L/P1330933-L.jpg)
New Orleans Warehouse DistrictPaint to improve bike and ped safety is just one example of how to enhance an area's quality-of-life for minimal expense. There are more innovate solutions out there for other issues as well. All it takes is will power to get the ball rolling. Come on Jax, we can do it!
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1013897602_VtFJwF8-L.jpg)
King Street between Riverside and Beaver Street in Mixon Town.
I'm sure the depth of the river has something to do with it, but would it be possible to move the cruise terminal closer to downtown? Like near the Matthews bridge? I feel like the current location is so far out of view of downtown that people cruising don't even consider it a port of call, unlike Miami, Key West, Tampa, etc which are all within walking distance of downtown.
The Carnival Fascination has cruises every week out of Jacksonville and they regularly averages 2,500-3,000 passengers including crew. Due to the ports location how many of those people do you think actually book downtown / visit. I know from talks with passengers on my previous 2 sailings on Fascination, most of the people book hotels near the airport and don't visit much if anything in the area. It'd be nice to have the ship a little closer to downtown and inject a few hundred into the hotels there. The water taxi could even add a route to the terminal to pick up people wanting to go to the Landing, Mosh, etc
^I was going to say that the height of the Dames Point Bridge hampers our ability to have a cruise port close to downtown. However, I just realized it has the same vertical clearance as the Sunshine Skyway Bridge. Tampa's channel depth is 43 feet and Jax's is 40 feet. So I guess, using those basic parameters, anything north of the Mathews Bridge would be game. Yet, ships are getting larger. Anyone know what Tampa's plans are in dealing with the height of the Sunshine Skyway Bridge?
Currently the Fascination goes under the Dames Point! lol It's quite funny watching everyone on the lido looking up to make sure the exhaust stacks don't hit the bridge. I'm fairly certain there's at least 10 - 15ft of clearance, but from an angle it doesn't look like there's much. Most of Carnivals ships are only slightly taller than the Fascination, about 10-15ft. So if the Dames point was ever raised, we could probably house 2 ships! A larger one for 7-9 day cruises and the smaller Fascination for 4-5 day cruises.
^ I think it would be cheaper to lower the exhaust stacks on the ship. RCCL's largest ships have retractable stacks so they could get out of the shipyard they were built in.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 21, 2015, 11:47:39 AM
Anyone know what Tampa's plans are in dealing with the height of the Sunshine Skyway Bridge?
Hope for the best at this point. The Skyway is actually only one limiting factor when it comes to the largest cruise ships. The port's berths are too small to handle them and they would not be able to turn around once they got in there. Tugboats are currently used to turn ships around in the turning basin, which is both too narrow and too shallow for the largest ships to use. Even the shipping channels themselves are too narrow for two such large vessels to pass each other as well as being too shallow. The only practical option imo is to build a new terminal west of the Skyway.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/tampas-mega-cruise-ship-options-limited-expensive-risky/2188201
I think there is another aspect that needs to be recognized also. Urban areas become hip and lively with the influx of younger residents right? Well, Jacksonville in someways is a victim of its own success. This is because of the huge popularity of the beach communities. In Tampa for a fun urban lifestyle you must go to either the Core or Ybor; while in Jax it's either the Core, Riverside or the Beaches. Young people are more spread out because they have lifestyle choices. To clarify I agree there are huge opportunities that have been missed in DTJax and there seems to be strong opposition to change in the area but I think when we look at this we should also realize that Tampa doesn't really have to compete with another hip area within close proximity. One could possibly argue that St. Pete is that place but they are so far apart I don't think it really counts. Leaders need to start doing a better job with DTJax! They need to realize they are competing even within their own community for lively residents. Just a thought.
I disagree with the statement "Tampa/St. Pete" being far....
DT Tampa to DTSP (23.8 miles -- 30 minutes)
Jacksonville to JAX Beach (18 miles -- 30 minutes)
I relocated back to Tampa after finishing undergrad at UNF in 2013. Prior to Buckhorn I wanted to flee Tampa. Since my return, I have noticed a renaissance emerging more infill, a greater sense of civic pride, weekly festivals, more local businesses/restaurants, greater focus on globalization and diversity (Copa Airlines, upcoming direct flight Frankfurt via Lufthansa).
Seminole Heights (Riverside esque) is beginning to see urban infill along Florida Ave. kind of like Edgewood Ave in Murray Hill. More coffee shops, and "Hipsters" moving in. Green ARTery going live in 2018 similar to Atlanta Beltline on a smaller scale.
Hyde Park great neighborhood for the young and old
Ybor City beginning to see another boom, and more tech companies....
Westshore gaining steam on infill and international presence for tourists and natives.
Downtown (Core): Gaining traction with all of the aforementioned, Selmon Greenway, more infill (2) approved 23+ story towers, a couple of mid-size projects, plus "Vinikville"
I'm finally seeing "hope" however, I still want MASS TRANSIT (commuter or light rail)! The city wants it however there's a political struggle since the county lacks the will and prefers "BRT." Mayor recently announced to fund streetcar and get the ball rolling for Vinik. Viking (Lightning owner) wants mixed-use, neighborhood, with transit. Vinik wants to break ground on his project this summer. Hopefully, will see modern conversion + line going to Seminole Heights by end of decade. Within 10 years I truly think Tampa/Tampa Bay will become more "urbanized."
Jacksonville IMO has the potential to be one of the greatest metro's in the SE. There has to be a political and social will to utilize assets, and bring in diversity. JAX should really push for a greater international presence. It's still "home" to me as I have family and close friends however I was ready to depart once I walked across the stage. It would be cool to see some 23-30+ story residential towers in Brooklyn/LaVilla, and of course the core.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on January 21, 2015, 03:47:16 PM
I think there is another aspect that needs to be recognized also. Urban areas become hip and lively with the influx of younger residents right? Well, Jacksonville in someways is a victim of its own success. This is because of the huge popularity of the beach communities. In Tampa for a fun urban lifestyle you must go to either the Core or Ybor; while in Jax it's either the Core, Riverside or the Beaches. Young people are more spread out because they have lifestyle choices. To clarify I agree there are huge opportunities that have been missed in DTJax and there seems to be strong opposition to change in the area but I think when we look at this we should also realize that Tampa doesn't really have to compete with another hip area within close proximity. One could possibly argue that St. Pete is that place but they are so far apart I don't think it really counts. Leaders need to start doing a better job with DTJax! They need to realize they are competing even within their own community for lively residents. Just a thought.
I disagree for a few reasons -
First, the SoHo area in south Tampa is by far the most popular place in Tampa for young college kids. Most of the UT and USF students hang out there, and as a result many want to live near there.
Second, downtown St Pete is FAR more vibrant and dense than downtown Tampa. There is a LOT of "cross pollination" too; people from one city hanging out or visiting friends across the bay. A lot of folks live on one side and work on the other.
Third, Clearwater Beach, Fort De Soto and other Pinellas county beaches are a far larger tourist draw. Pinellas county's bed taxes are usually noticeably higher than Hillsborough's for that reason. So Tampa definitely has to compete with those beach areas.
The policies implemented by local leaders are the difference without a doubt. There is no excuse for downtown Jax to not expand its bike/ped infrastructure, for example. There should be a good plan in place to expand the S-Line and connect it to things (parks, amenities, the trail to Baldwin, the riverwalk, etc). The money is there. The desire is not.
I cant imagine any place the same size as Jax and have a more dead downtown.
The downtowns in Dayton, OH, Birmingham, AL, Buffalo, NY and Rochester, NY all appeared to be pretty sleepy to me during previous trips to those cities. Other than Birmingham, it's been five or six years since I've visited the other cities so they may have changed since then.
I suppose you guys are right. I was just in the opposite situation, I lived in Tampa about four years ago and a lot of what is happening today was only in its infancy then. Hopefully that is the trend we will see in Jax in coming years. Things are beginning to rev up here but its all still small steps. There is no doubt we need better leadership and action from city hall. Bill Bishop?...
To be fair, the Bay Area is twice as large as Jax. We've enjoyed some similar successes.....and failures, but the scale of activity is different due to the size of the communities. Living in Lakeland, before I moved to Jax, it always seemed to me that while larger, Tampa seemed to be a bit more conservative than Orlando. However, the rapid growth of Orlando seemed to fuel a desire in the Bay Area to attempt to compete. To that level, I think some of the positives of friendly competition have helped the Bay Area move forward. The same could be said of St. Petersburg and Tampa's rivalry as the two major cities in the Bay Area. Jax, on the other hand, is a bit more isolated and lacks that decent sized regional neighbor to fuel the competitive civic spirit. For the Tampa people out there, is this a fair observation?
Quote from: thelakelander on January 21, 2015, 06:21:47 PM
To be fair, the Bay Area is twice as large as Jax. We've enjoyed some similar successes.....and failures, but the scale of activity is different due to the size of the communities. Living in Lakeland, before I moved to Jax, it always seemed to me that while larger, Tampa seemed to be a bit more conservative than Orlando. However, the rapid growth of Orlando seemed to fuel a desire in the Bay Area to attempt to compete. To that level, I think some of the positives of friendly competition has helped the Bay Area move forward. The same could be said of St. Petersburg and Tampa's rivalry as the two major cities in the Bay Area. Jax, on the other hand, is a bit more isolated and lacks that decent sized regional neighborhood to fuel the competitive civic spirit. For the Tampa people out there, is this a fair observation?
Ennis I think your comparison and article was right on point! Marion Transitway is a bust should have streetcar going down. River walk was finally built etc. The "competition" has even filtered into Lakeland. I took my boyfriend to the Polk Museum of Art and Legoland and he was impressed with the growth+potential there as well. As The I-4 corridor continues to merge into the "superregion" I think there will be a greater sense of working together. I think there's less provincialism in Tampa Bay than years past (Kriseman and Buckhorn) really teaming to push the region forward. I think what helped Orlando (politically) was the sense of "togetherness," migration, and tourism. Here in Tampa Bay we struggled with the "old-timers" having bitter memories from Tampa-St. Pete rivalry. I think at one point (80's-early 90's) Pinellas had a larger pop than Hillsborough.
What does JAX have planned for the Landing? Maybe Khan will invest? Is there a chance for a Mayor that wants to champion LGBTQ + ally community and retain Millenials? Has the city considered sending RFP to Novare? Surprised there isn't a Skyhouse yet.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 21, 2015, 06:21:47 PM
To be fair, the Bay Area is twice as large as Jax. We've enjoyed some similar successes.....and failures, but the scale of activity is different due to the size of the communities. Living in Lakeland, before I moved to Jax, it always seemed to me that while larger, Tampa seemed to be a bit more conservative than Orlando. However, the rapid growth of Orlando seemed to fuel a desire in the Bay Area to attempt to compete. To that level, I think some of the positives of friendly competition has helped the Bay Area move forward. The same could be said of St. Petersburg and Tampa's rivalry as the two major cities in the Bay Area. Jax, on the other hand, is a bit more isolated and lacks that decent sized regional neighborhood to fuel the competitive civic spirit. For the Tampa people out there, is this a fair observation?
I think that's very fair. I've never considered the effects that competition of that nature could have on a city, but it certainly makes sense. Tampa has also been extremely lucky. Any city, given high quality leadership, can make itself a nicer place to live.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 21, 2015, 07:45:38 AM
Both Uber and Lyft serve Tampa:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/10-things-to-understand-about-lyft-and-uber/2202683
Good info. Thanks for posting.
Here are the substitutes to active legislation 2014-665 Uber and Lyft in Duval county that has to get through RULES before being voted on and becoming law when and if passed by the Jacksonville city council. It was deferred at the 1/20/15 RULES Committee meeting.
1. EXPANDS the definition of vehicle for hire.
2. Conforms the City's insurance requirements with the State's requirements and clarifies that such insurance covers times while vehicles for hire are operating without an active passenger.
3. Allows the City Parking Division and Jacksonville Airport Authority to Seize, impound or immobilize for hire vehicles used in violation of ordinance Chapter 220
Quote from: thelakelander on January 21, 2015, 11:47:39 AM
Anyone know what Tampa's plans are in dealing with the height of the Sunshine Skyway Bridge?
FDOT did an initial study on options last year. None were in any way cheap. They will be conducting a more detailed study in 2015/2016.
I take issue with the emboldened words below:
Quote from: Adam12 on January 21, 2015, 04:43:57 PM
I disagree for a few reasons -
First, the SoHo area in south Tampa is by far the most popular place in Tampa for young college kids. Most of the UT and USF students hang out there, and as a result many want to live near there.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 21, 2015, 06:21:47 PM
To be fair, the Bay Area is twice as large as Jax. We've enjoyed some similar successes.....and failures, but the scale of activity is different due to the size of the communities. Living in Lakeland, before I moved to Jax, it always seemed to me that while larger, Tampa seemed to be a bit more conservative than Orlando. However, the rapid growth of Orlando seemed to fuel a desire in the Bay Area to attempt to compete. To that level, I think some of the positives of friendly competition have helped the Bay Area move forward. The same could be said of St. Petersburg and Tampa's rivalry as the two major cities in the Bay Area. Jax, on the other hand, is a bit more isolated and lacks that decent sized regional neighbor to fuel the competitive civic spirit. For the Tampa people out there, is this a fair observation?
Similarly, "USC" to describe South Carolina. lol
Well this seems to be what Tampa thinks of us so I guess this is a situation of "it's always greener on the other side"! Even though Jax surely needs work we shouldn't forget about the great things we do have. And pretty much all of it is because of ordinary citizens adding something to the community. This is awesome exposure for the city! http://tbo.com/lifestyle/jacksonville-overflowing-with-new-thrills-20150125/
Great article!