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Well it finally happened, our age old rival Atlanta has dumped us again, being first to go streetcar... And of course Tampa trumped us in Florida... Orlando and Miami with commuter rail... Miami with heavy rail.... Charlotte..well you get the idea! DAMN!
Can you imagine the thousands that will turn out for the 'First Coast Flyer Bus' opening? Will JSO have to escort the buses through the streets? EPIC FAIL!
the real question...will this be more than just a tourist train
It runs from a tourist district through DT to another a tourist district. It will be a tourist train.
Anything wrong with it being a tourist train?
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 31, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
Anything wrong with it being a tourist train?
ask Tampa how that's working for them ridership-wise
NY Times coverage
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/31/us/atlanta-hopes-streetcar-route-will-grow-into-a-traffic-fix.html?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0
Yeah, we SURRRRRRELY missed to boat, or I should say streetcar with this situation. Each streetcar will come with it's own weather phenomenon, sunshine and rainbows. I'm realllly feeling envious that every city with a streetcar *cough cough potential boondoggle* already 'dumped on us', awww shucks!!!!
Quote"These are not projects for right now," said Keith T. Parker, the chief executive of the Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority. "These are projects for the future, and when you look around, the cities who we're competing with around this nation and around the world, they've made investments in public transportation."
Quote"If we're going to have bad traffic, we might as well have something cool and cute that makes us look like the rest of the world, right?" Ms. Williams, 29, said. "There's plenty of other cities that are doing so much better. Why? It's because of their transportation. It's about time that we catch up."
A version of this article appears in print on December 31, 2014, on page A11 of the New York edition
It remains to be seen where this goes. ANYONE that knows Georgia's transportation, especially urban transportation issues knows that historically they have been about 666 times more backward or reluctant to improve then has Florida. MARTA, biggest cat fight in the history of rail. Atlanta Commuter Rail, Georgia sponsored Section 403B and 403C Amtrak trains, "Yes we are..." "No we're not..." "Any day now..." "Next year..." "Tomorrow..." "Oh you'll see..." "Yes we are..." "No we're not..." "Any day now..." "Next year..." "Tomorrow..." "Oh you'll see..." "Yes we are..." "No we're not..." "Any day now..." "Next year..." "Tomorrow..." "Oh you'll see..." "Yes we are..." "No we're not..." "Any day now..." "Next year..." "Tomorrow..." "Oh you'll see..." "Yes we are..." "No we're not..." "Any day now..." "Next year..." "Tomorrow..." "Oh you'll see..."
So it's something of a tourist streetcar for the moment, a circle of track for a circulating rail car, but if they don't do the Tampa and operate only in the afternoon, they'll no doubt reach their ridership goal. However unlike Jacksonville, Orlando, Miami, West Palm Beach, Pensacola or Key FRIGGIN' West, they've actually FINALLY acted. This will increase demand from other neighborhoods to reach them by streetcar.
Now move the Atlanta 'idea' to Jacksonville, we lay a 'heritage streetcar,' across Water/Independence to Newnan, North on Newnan to Duval, West on Duval to Lee, South on Lee to Water/Independence. Just a big circle and nobody's idea of ideal... That is unless you are wise enough to see that right-of-way up through the Springfield Parks to UF, or up Newnan to Beaver to the Stadium, or from Beaver to Gateway, or from Lee at Water south to Riverside. The key is you can do that most critical part of the system, as a 'cute historic downtown circulator,' on the cheap. The good thing about this strategy is that it can lead to gradual acceptance of the idea and ongoing implementation.
If you are simply happy with the status quo and have zero vision for the future you might perceive every other city's success as a *cough cough potential boondoggle* AS USUAL SURRRRRRELY missing the point of MJ!!!!!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 31, 2014, 10:22:14 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 31, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
Anything wrong with it being a tourist train?
ask Tampa how that's working for them ridership-wise
[/quote
A lot more going on in Atlanta, and I don't see Tampa digging up any streetcar lines.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 31, 2014, 08:20:10 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 31, 2014, 10:22:14 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 31, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
Anything wrong with it being a tourist train?
ask Tampa how that's working for them ridership-wise
A lot more going on in Atlanta, and I don't see Tampa digging up any streetcar lines.
they constantly have the same argument we do here regarding the Skyway...if they discontinue the service, they owe the Feds money
The point many Jaxson's seem to be missing whilst either denying that Jacksonville needs to improve anything... ever... is that Tampa and now Atlanta have an advantage we don't and apparently don't want to have; they've already got the core of their systems built.
Quote
Mass transit
TAMPA BAY TIMES, 12-31-14
The defeat of the Greenlight Pinellas transit referendum was a significant setback for creating a viable mass transit system for Tampa Bay. That does not mean the region should give up on establishing a robust bus system and building light rail.
Pinellas public officials and business leaders have to regroup in 2015. They should reject suggestions to settle for less revenue and a smaller transit system that would not meet the need. They should rework the Greenlight plan, including the proposed rail route. In Hillsborough, officials should proceed with plans for a 2016 referendum and draft a plan that relies less on new road projects and more on mass transit.
Leaders throughout Tampa Bay also should brainstorm about meeting the biggest challenge: building a rail system that spans the bay and connects Tampa with St. Petersburg.
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-five-issues-to-watch-in-2015/2212021
...But it's just a tourist trolley! Indeed it is, but it's also much, much, more then that.
Hard to believe the Tampa street car is not doing well, it goes right be some of there viable tourist districts. Perhaps just like the skyway they need to expand it so ridership can increase. I don't think Atlanta will have an issue,
Tampa's doesn't do well because outside of a few attractions, hotels and the residential units it's helped spur, it does not penetrate downtown or surrounding neighborhoods with a decent population base. Also, service starts at 12 noon Sunday Through Thursday and 11am on Friday and Saturday. That's simply not going to work for residents working a 9-5.
Atlanta's won't break ridership records but it should attract a lot more riders than Tampa's. It connects two bonefide tourism destinations on either end, with downtown Atlanta, MARTA and Georgia State University in the middle. IMO, they would have been better off, losing the loop and going with a bi-directional single track with occasional sidings. For the same cost, they could have hit the same destinations, while penetrating an adjacent urban neighborhood or two, to adding commuters to the potential ridership pool.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 31, 2014, 03:54:06 PM
Now move the Atlanta 'idea' to Jacksonville, we lay a 'heritage streetcar,' across Water/Independence to Newnan, North on Newnan to Duval, West on Duval to Lee, South on Lee to Water/Independence. Just a big circle and nobody's idea of ideal... That is unless you are wise enough to see that right-of-way up through the Springfield Parks to UF, or up Newnan to Beaver to the Stadium, or from Beaver to Gateway, or from Lee at Water south to Riverside. The key is you can do that most critical part of the system, as a 'cute historic downtown circulator,' on the cheap. The good thing about this strategy is that it can lead to gradual acceptance of the idea and ongoing implementation.
The bad thing about this strategy is that it will fail to pull in enough riders to demonstrate initial success, thus losing public support to expand. If success is partially determined by high ridership, forget the loop where a few people live and go with a single line that stretches into adjacent neighborhoods like Springfield and Riverside. In this scenario, for just about the same cost as building a circle in downtown, you'd have something penetrating areas of high employment and residential population, with DT in the middle. The higher usage from that initial segment can then fuel the push to expand or increase capacity where needed.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 31, 2014, 08:07:25 AM
the real question...will this be more than just a tourist train
i used to walk most of that area trolley covers, they say this new Atl trolley is the small part of a bigger trolley system. I have not ridden it yet, but I know this area pretty well. If I was the powers, this trolley would be better as an arm extension from Martas Midtown Station to Georiga Tech and Piedmont Park. Auburn Avenue doesnt JUMP as much as 10th and the 14th Street. Another idea would be develop the area around Turner Field and run the trolley from Georgia State Station to Turner Field to West End....but the Braves are moving to suburbs so.....im curious how it will do, but dont let this over hype fan fare fool you guys into feeling bad about Duval not having one.
Coolyfett I don't that think that was the intention of this thread about the hype.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 01, 2015, 09:17:13 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 31, 2014, 03:54:06 PM
Now move the Atlanta 'idea' to Jacksonville, we lay a 'heritage streetcar,' across Water/Independence to Newnan, North on Newnan to Duval, West on Duval to Lee, South on Lee to Water/Independence. Just a big circle and nobody's idea of ideal... That is unless you are wise enough to see that right-of-way up through the Springfield Parks to UF, or up Newnan to Beaver to the Stadium, or from Beaver to Gateway, or from Lee at Water south to Riverside. The key is you can do that most critical part of the system, as a 'cute historic downtown circulator,' on the cheap. The good thing about this strategy is that it can lead to gradual acceptance of the idea and ongoing implementation.
The bad thing about this strategy is that it will fail to pull in enough riders to demonstrate initial success, thus losing public support to expand. If success is partially determined by high ridership, forget the loop where a few people live and go with a single line that stretches into adjacent neighborhoods like Springfield and Riverside. In this scenario, for just about the same cost as building a circle in downtown, you'd have something penetrating areas of high employment and residential population, with DT in the middle. The higher usage from that initial segment can then fuel the push to expand or increase capacity where needed.
No argument here, which is why I said; "and nobody's idea of ideal... " Just responding to the idea that Atlanta is somehow stupid for moving ahead of us and we are somehow brilliant for standing in our own, comfortable little mud hole. I had much rather us build that box through downtown using one 'L' or 'I' link at a time and actually connect something.
I do still feel, if you want modern streetcar, full blown LRT or a heritage line, you are far better off starting with the 'heritage concept' as Charlotte, Tampa and Tucson did. Get the minimalist track down, with minimalist simple trolley wire and no other furnishings but trolley stop signs and a metal shed to cover a small work space. DONE. Once the system is operating on one of those links, you've got rail and it is going to be easier to improve on that then to shift from flying buses to real rapid transit.
Oh I don't feel bad, Cooly. I'm happy for Atlanta and any other city enjoying the benefits of investing in itself.
Per Trains:
Atlanta plans streetcar expansion
ATLANTA – Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed has shared plans to expand the new Atlanta Streetcar line, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports. Speaking at the annual State of the City business breakfast, Reed says the city is taking the "first steps" to connect the Atlanta Streetcar's downtown track eastward three-quarters of a mile, ultimately connecting the streetcar line with the Beltline trail.
The mayor did not say how the expansion to the streetcar, which cost $96 million in its first phase, would be funded.
Plans for the streetcar to connect to the Beltline's eventual 22-mile loop of parks and trails have long been in the works, but many are skeptical it will become reality because of lack of funding.
Atlanta's new 2.7-mile streetcar line opened Dec. 30, 2014 with passengers riding the line free for the first three months of operation. The line loops from Centennial Olympic Park to the King Center. It uses four streetcars built by Siemens under a $17.2 million contract based on the company's S70 low-platform vehicle.
First projected to be free for just 3 months, due to a benefactor, it will be free for the remainder of 2015.
Per Trains:
Atlanta Streetcar to operate fare-free for reminder of 2015
ATLANTA – The new Atlanta Streetcar Line will operate fare-free for the rest of 2015. The city will take additional time to review system attributes and determine how the streetcar's fare system can best interface with the Marta Breeze fare system, while also taking advantage of emerging technology.
"The fare collection system should be easy for commuters and visitors, and in this case, we can do better. We want the Atlanta Streetcar to be a habit for Atlanta's residents and visitors, and streamlining the fare process will benefit our riders," Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed says.
The city is looking at smartphone apps that would include trip-planning tools, including alerts and schedule information, and the ability to check real-time arrivals and find information about streetcar-accessible activities and events.
The original budget for the streetcar projected $304,000 in ticket revenue this year. Private, philanthropic support and operational savings will supplement these funds, the city says.
Atlanta's 2.7-mile streetcar line opened Dec. 30, 2014. The line loops from Centennial Olympic Park to the King Center. It uses four vehicles built by Siemens under a $17.2 million contract based on the company's S70 low-platform vehicle.