We've previously noted that many members of ISIS were members of Saddam Hussein's secular Baath Party who converted to radical Islam in American prisons.
And we've documented that torture creates more terrorists. Indeed, Salon notes:
Among the most notable victims of torture was Sayeed Qutb, the founding father of modern political jihadism. His 1964 book, "Milestones," describes a journey towards radicalization that included rape and torture, sometimes with dogs, in an Egyptian prison. He left jail burning with the determination to wage transnational jihad to destroy these regimes and their backers, calling for war against all those who used these methods against Muslims
***
"Milestones" remains one of the Arab world's most influential books. Indeed, it was the lodestar of Al Qaeda leaders like Ayman Al-Zawahiri (who was also tortured in Egyptian jails) and the late Osama Bin Laden.
In other words, it was torture which drove the founder of modern jihad to terrorism in the first place.
ISIS ... Created By Torture
The head of ISIS (al-Baghdadi) spent 4 years as a prisoner at the U.S. Bucca Camp in Iraq. As the Washington Post reports:
But the narrative solidifies in 2005, when [al-Baghdadi] was captured by American forces and spent the next four years a prisoner in the Bucca Camp in southern Iraq. It was from his time there that the first known picture of Baghdadi emerged.
Kathy Kelly wrote in September:
In January of 2004 I visited "Bucca Camp," a U.S.-run POW camp ... located near the isolated port city of Umm Qasr, in southern Iraq ....
***
These men at Bucca had been marched naked in front of women soldiers. They'd been told to say "I love George Bush" before they could receive their food rations. They'd slept on the open ground in punishingly cold weather with no mat beneath them and only one blanket. The guards had taunted them and they had had no way of telling their friends they were still alive.
***
It's widely acknowledged that the 2003 invasion of Iraq radicalized Al-Baghdadi, with his humiliation at Camp Bucca further hardening him.
Mother Jones noted in July:
According to the Telegraph, members of his local mosque in Tobchi (a neighborhood in Baghdad) who knew him from around 1989 until 2004 (when he was between the ages of 18 and 33) considered Baghdadi a quiet, studious fellow and a talented soccer player. When the United States invaded Iraq in 2003, Baghdadi was earning a degree in Islamic studies in Baghdad.
But within a couple years of the US invasion, Baghdadi was a prisoner in Camp Bucca, the US-run detainment facility in Umm Qasr, Iraq. And a US compound commander stationed at that prison—and other military officials—have in recent weeks wondered whether Baghdadi's stint there radicalized him and put him on the path to taking over ISIS in 2010 and guiding the movement to its recent military victories.
***
The reason why he was apprehended is not publicly known; he could have been arrested on a specific charge or as part of a large sweep of insurgents or insurgent supporters. (A confidential Red Cross report leaked in May 2004 suggested than around 90 percent of detainees of Iraqi origin were arrested "by mistake.") Army Colonel Kenneth King, the commanding US officer at Camp Bucca in 2009, recently told the Daily Beast that he distinctly remembered a man resembling Baghdadi: "He was a bad dude, but he wasn't the worst of the worst." King noted he was "not surprised" that such a radical figure emerged from the facility.
***
James Skylar Gerrond, a former US Air Force security forces officer and a compound commander at Camp Bucca in 2006 and 2007, says that he believes Baghdadi's stay at the prison contributed to his radicalization—or at least bolstered his extremism. After Baghdadi proclaimed the Islamic State a new nation and himself its leader, Gerrond tweeted, "Many of us at Camp Bucca were concerned that instead of just holding detainees, we had created a pressure cooker for extremism." Gerrond is now a civilian working for the Department of Defense.
The Guardian reported in 2009
Critics of the facility say it had in effect become a terror training institute, run by resentful inmates under a strict interpretation of Islamic law."It is al-Qa'ida central down there," said Sheikh Ali Hatem Suleiman, a tribal leader from Anbar province. "What better way to teach everyone how to become fanatical than put them all together for scant reason, then deprive them?"
Indeed, many of the top ISIS commanders – including Abu Ayman al-Iraqi and Abu Abdulrahman al-Bilawi – were high-level Iraqi officers under Saddam Hussein who were imprisoned at Camp Bucca by American forces.
There was unquestionably widespread torture at Camp Bucca ...
Allen Keller M.D. – Assistant Professor of Medicine at the NYU School of Medicine, attending Physician in the Bellevue Hospital Primary Care Medical Clinic, and a recognized expert on torture – documents in the journal Perspectives in Biology and Medicine various forms of torture at Camp Bucca ... including surgeries without anaesthetic, rape and various types of beatings (search for the word "Bucca").
The Red Cross and 60 Minutes reported that prisoners were shot at Camp Bucca.
The Seattle Times reported in 2004:
A U.S. resident who was held prisoner by the United States in another detention center in Iraq last year says prisoners there were also beaten and sexually humiliated.
Hossam Shaltout said widespread mistreatment by soldiers in Camp Bucca detention center in southern Iraq was as inhumane as that depicted in recent photos from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
He described Camp Bucca as a "torture camp," where soldiers beat and humiliated prisoners. He said he saw soldiers tie groups of naked prisoners together. He said they hogtied his hands and legs and placed scorpions on his body.
"American soldiers love scorpions," Shaltout said in an interview arranged by his U.S. lawyer.
The Washington Post reported in 2004:
On May 12, four soldiers from the 320th Military Police Battalion, based in Ashley, Pa., were charged with beating prisoners after transporting them to Camp Bucca. MPs from a different unit reported the incident, saying the legs of prisoners were held apart while soldiers kicked them in the groin.
The rise of ISIS confirms what we've been saying for years ... torture reduces our national security:
A former FBI interrogator — who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects — says categorically that torture turns people into terrorists
A 30-year veteran of CIA's operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:
Torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize.
A former US Air Force interrogator said that torture just creates more terrorists
A former U.S. interrogator and counterintelligence agent, and Afghanistan veteran said:
Torture puts our troops in danger, torture makes our troops less safe, torture creates terrorists. It's used so widely as a propaganda tool now in Afghanistan. All too often, detainees have pamphlets on them, depicting what happened at Guantanamo.
The Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously stated:
"The administration's policies concerning [torture] and the resulting controversies ... strengthened the hand of our enemies."
Two professors of political science have demonstrated that torture increases, rather than decreases, terrorism
General Petraeus said that torture hurts our national security
The head of all U.S. intelligence said:
"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world," [Director of National Intelligence Dennis] Blair said in the statement. "The damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
A top counter-terrorism expert says torture increases the risk of terrorism (and see this)
One of the top military interrogators said that torture by Americans of innocent Iraqis is the main reason that foreign fighters started fighting against Americans in Iraq in the first place (and see this).
Former counter-terrorism czar Richard A. Clarke says that America's indefinite detention without trial and abuse of prisoners is a leading Al Qaeda recruiting tool
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2014/12/how-u-s-torture-led-to-the-rise-of-isis/
I think you should do your fellow American apologists a favor by personally traveling to Raqqa to apologize to Al-Baghdadi and other ISIS members who feel wronged by the USA.
Quote from: Jameson on December 23, 2014, 03:43:53 PM
I think you should do your fellow American apologists a favor by personally traveling to Raqqa to apologize to Al-Baghdadi and other ISIS members who feel wronged by the USA.
I have a better idea. Why don't you get some of your teabagger buddies to rectally feed you so you can "prove" that it's not really torture.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on December 24, 2014, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: Jameson on December 23, 2014, 03:43:53 PM
I think you should do your fellow American apologists a favor by personally traveling to Raqqa to apologize to Al-Baghdadi and other ISIS members who feel wronged by the USA.
Oh, yes. Us "Apologists" who believe in true American values and don't want to see us become as evil as the men we are fighting. We rational thinkers who realize torture doesn't provide actionable intelligence and actually puts us in more danger. Great zinger, bro.
Indulge me then. Tell me what method we should use on irrational thinking terrorists (who if not in captivity would be to kill you and I) to gather intelligence.
The whole point of the argument is flawed by spoiled American's who have never had the pleasure of living in a Southeast Asian Jungle, or Mideastern Wadi. They've never passed the bodies of a 15 year old girl, who gave birth at the point of a sword bleeding out in the dirt sometime before the forced abortion and having every bone in her body broken with a piece of lead pipe. Spoiled Yankee children that have never been shelled, never shot at, never had to run for their lives and never bled. The've never seen the victors dance on the body of your brother, mother or best friend and they've certainly never had the thrill of having a 5 year old child, packing live grenades, run up for a piece of candy. Do you shoot him? Do you blow up with him? Do you run?
The guy's that did these things are not motivated by some American setting of a fire cracker, making a youtube video or using sanitized torture such as water boarding. They have no interest at all in what we do or have done except to hit us and hit us hard because we are 'The Great Satan.' In Vietnam, where some of the above actually happened, there was a 'cleaner' way of getting the information from the rabid killers. Simply load 5 of them up in the helicopter and take them up 1,000 feet. "TALK!" And when they don't, one joins the birds... Generally speaking the other four will then sing in harmony, but since dragging them along through the jungle is suicidal, you kick their butts out the door too. Problem solved.
This is the part where some gullible nut basket gets on here and tells me how ugly I am. I've got some 'friends' in the jungle that would like to meet you, and I suspect Jameson does too!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 24, 2014, 03:22:16 PM
The whole point of the argument ...
It's pretty obvious you've missed the whole point.
Not really, my point is, if you've ever seen their work, you'd gladly roast them over a low fire.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 24, 2014, 03:40:29 PM
you'd gladly roast them over a low fire.
A confidential Red Cross report leaked in May 2004 suggested than around 90 percent of detainees of Iraqi origin were arrested "by mistake."
The rise of ISIS confirms what we've been saying for years ... torture reduces our national security:
A former FBI interrogator — who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects — says categorically that torture turns people into terrorists
A 30-year veteran of CIA's operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:
Torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize.
A former US Air Force interrogator said that torture just creates more terrorists
A former U.S. interrogator and counterintelligence agent, and Afghanistan veteran said:
Torture puts our troops in danger, torture makes our troops less safe, torture creates terrorists. It's used so widely as a propaganda tool now in Afghanistan. All too often, detainees have pamphlets on them, depicting what happened at Guantanamo.
The Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously stated:
"The administration's policies concerning [torture] and the resulting controversies ... strengthened the hand of our enemies."
General Petraeus said that torture hurts our national security
The head of all U.S. intelligence said:
"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world," [Director of National Intelligence Dennis] Blair said in the statement. "The damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
One of the top military interrogators said that torture by Americans of innocent Iraqis is the main reason that foreign fighters started fighting against Americans in Iraq in the first place.
Former counter-terrorism czar Richard A. Clarke says that America's indefinite detention without trial and abuse of prisoners is a leading Al Qaeda recruiting tool
We have a saying in the American Military; "Kill them all and let God sort them out." Problem solved and neither the left nor the right need be involved, just give us the go-ahead and get the hell out of our way.
Haven't been here in a while. Just checked in to see if the idiots here are still in charge. The answer is a resounding YES.........Finehoe leading the way.
It's a baseless argument. American torture didn't create ISIS. The above terrorists mentioned were radicals before being tortured. Not the other way around.
Typical Islamic sympathizer blame everything on US crap, what else is new? I bet that you sympathizers are against Charlie Hebdo's right to free speech also. Just because a bunch of barbaric jihadists take offense to something, cater to them...This is what the modern day American liberal has become... The US can't make 'French retreating' jokes anymore, because the French has more bigger balls, and they actually have real liberals.
Quote from: I-10east on January 14, 2015, 02:02:14 AM
Typical Islamic sympathizer blame everything on US crap, what else is new? I bet that you sympathizers are against Charlie Hebdo's right to free speech also. Just because a bunch of barbaric jihadists take offense to something, cater to them...This is what the modern day American liberal has become... The US can't make 'French retreating' jokes anymore, because the French has more bigger balls, and they actually have real liberals.
Are you really so fucking stupid that you think being against torture makes one an "Islamic sympathizer"?
^^^Nope. You care about the feelings of terrorists over Americans, that's what makes you a sympathizer. Do a poll of the Americans who actually care about this shit (small fringe left-wingers) then get back at me... The sentiment of some actions being the 'proverbial straw that broke the camel's back' concerning terrorists is ludious.
Quote from: I-10east on January 14, 2015, 09:13:43 AM
^^^Nope. You care about the feelings of terrorists over Americans, that's what makes you a sympathizer. Do a poll of the Americans who actually care about this shit (small fringe left-wingers) then get back at me... The sentiment of some actions being the 'proverbial straw that broke the camel's back' concerning terrorists is ludious.
Just because you don't want America to sink as low as it's enemies, does not mean you care more about the feelings of terrorists than Americans. I think history shows that 'speak softly and carry a big stick' works better than knee-jerk cowboy swagger. If John McCain says torture does more harm than good, that ought to give anyone pause in using them.
Quote from: finehoe on January 14, 2015, 08:31:34 AM
Quote from: I-10east on January 14, 2015, 02:02:14 AM
Typical Islamic sympathizer blame everything on US crap, what else is new? I bet that you sympathizers are against Charlie Hebdo's right to free speech also. Just because a bunch of barbaric jihadists take offense to something, cater to them...This is what the modern day American liberal has become... The US can't make 'French retreating' jokes anymore, because the French has more bigger balls, and they actually have real liberals.
Are you really so fucking stupid that you think being against torture makes one an "Islamic sympathizer"?
LOL. I thought the exact same thing. I typed out a pretty long counter-argument...then deleted it under the idea that you can't argue with stupid.
Quote from: I-10east on January 14, 2015, 09:13:43 AM
^^^Nope. You care about the feelings of terrorists over Americans, that's what makes you a sympathizer. Do a poll of the Americans who actually care about this shit (small fringe left-wingers) then get back at me... The sentiment of some actions being the 'proverbial straw that broke the camel's back' concerning terrorists is ludious.
Huh?!?!?! Care about the "feelings" of terrorists over Americans? Dude, you've lost it. [In other words: go read a book.]