QuoteBy
Special to the Times-Union
Note to readers: We asked members of our E-Mail Group what they think of the concept of mass transit by rail. This can take many forms, whether commuter rail or light rail in the city.
Commuter business: The concept of using commuter rail lines along tracks that parallel the city is currently in place in major cities such as the Pennsylvania-New Jersey-New York corridor. Rail lines that serve the Philadelphia and Trenton areas allow people to leave their cars at home or a designated lot and travel to their workplaces. This same type of service can be accomplished in the Jacksonville area, along with the adjoining counties of Clay and St. Johns. With a little cooperation between the counties and railroad companies, along with no immature squabbles, this system can be set up. Having a system like this in place would save millions of gallons of fuel, along with the improvement of the environment. The cities and counties would also have increased revenue from the sale of commuter tickets. - Kenneth R. Soffer, Fleming Island
Too spread out: I'm afraid Jacksonville is too spread out for effective use of light rail.
It's like Miami, where I used to live, and which invested lots of taxpayers' money in a little-used system. Stations invariably required blocks of walking to and from. However, it was popular with the politicians who had to endure fact-finding trips to Paris before finalizing their plans. Jacksonville politicos, of course, would be above such boondoggles. - George Patrick, Amelia Island
What is the cost? Does the JTA have accurate figures for the "true cost of rail?
The real numbers that we, the taxpayers, can see are the losses incurred for the Skyway. Here we are in 2008, 20 years later, and where are the riders? Should we trust the JTA with the spending of millions of dollars for a new rail system, when citizens have spent $200 million for a system that has yet to pay for itself? Is this the right time to be spending any money on transit when the city has to finish Better Jacksonville transit overpasses? - Jack Bobeck, Avondale
Back to future: A trip to St. Augustine on rail would not be new, rather a revival.
In my courting years about 60 years ago, we used the train to go to the Ponce de Leon Hotel for dinner. Bring it on. - Charles Krueger, Jacksonville
Buses more practical: Most people say they are in favor of mass transit for other people, but they personally would not be able to use buses, light rail, because they need the car, because the distance from the bus line is too far or any number of excuses, most of them legitimate. As for the option of light rail, it is very expensive. Most of us who will have to help pay for it will never have occasion to use that particular route. (Example: downtown Skyway). Buses are far more practical. - Marg Cutts, Atlantic Beach
People love cars: I am a big fan of public transportation, and I have been taking the bus to work for the last five years. I live near the train tracks on Roosevelt Boulevard, so the topic of light rail sure sounds great, but I don't see how it would be successful without a lot of costs. In general, residents are in love with their cars, and they are willing to pay high gas costs rather than deal with the inconveniences of public transportation. As much as I would favor light rail, I don't see it working in Jacksonville anytime soon. - Scott Hudmon, Jacksonville
Overdue: The light rail idea is past due! It should have been started 10 years ago when Mandarin and the Intracoastal West areas started growing. - Rob Handres, Clay County
Mass transit is superior: Mass transportation beats private auto transportation hands down in terms of economy, traffic congestion, air pollution and mental well-being. The only thing mass transportation lacks is convenience and availability. Only the rich and the psychologically impaired would choose to drive a private auto at these gas prices and parking prices we see downtown. We have railways throughout Jacksonville. To become a great city, Jacksonville needs to lead in the development of mass transportation. How about a monorail? It works at Walt Disney World. - William V. Choisser, Orange Park
Look at Atlanta: I am definitely a proponent of a light rail system in Jacksonville, and I would certainly use it rather than drive my vehicle daily. This would be an excellent way to save money on buying gas, and I think it would ease congestion on the highways. When I was a resident of Atlanta, I used the MARTA rail system regularly and it was great. - Tommi Cleme, Jacksonville
Rail defines city: The problem in Jacksonville, like many modern American cities, is the sprawl. Rail will redefine the layout of a city. Just as new commercial centers arrange around interstate exits, so will a city realign itself around a solid transit system. There will be fewer cars, but also more centralized amenities and defined districts. This helps give each area character, better access and less thoroughfare. We can return to our industries being located together, instead of the current system where office parks are ruled by congestion patterns. Light rail is more than just moving people, it's a framework for the future. - Jeff Brewer, San Marco
This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/052208/opl_281405911.shtml.
Those comments actually seemed to be pretty constructive opinions, unlike other TU polls.
Its true that mass transit won't benefit everyone, especially someone in Amelia Island who likely has very little to do with Jacksonville. It could be nice for them to be able to catch a train in Fernandina to the airport to fly down to Miami to see their friends and relatives though...
Cars will still be a fact of life for many/most in Jacksonville but the benefits of rail based transit to the city's future are endless.
I also noticed there is still a big misconception on the type of rail that MetroJacksonville is proposing. Light rail is NOT commuter rail. We need to continue to educate the masses on the differences.
Seems to be a couple of odd views here that the TU or Folio could help to fix.
One: Expense, the Skyway was a Federal "gift" project and we spent like fools on what could have been a 10 mile system for the same $$$. In JTA's defence we had to do certain things, but we could also have used a little forethought.
Two: Passenger Count, As gas soars beyond reach, mass transit is going to be the mobility of the people. Otherwise get ready for Beach or Blanding looking like a Chinese Highway, with 50% motorbikes and scooters mixed with bikes and walkers and a scattering of autos. How many 3 piece suits will make that August trip from the burbs to Baymeadows or City Center on a bike??
Three: Crippled Skyway, with the Skyway dead-in-the-water, we can't expect anything more of it. It is an horizontal elevator that doesn't go all the way to the top. Not too many are going to lay out cash for a many-million dollar building that depends on a dead end railroad, and no resolve to fix it.
Four: Finally, Development, we completely missed the Billions in development that city after city has experienced with Streetcars and Light Rail. How do you put a price on Billions in new jobs, development, homes and industry, none of which is auto-dependent?
Five: Jason your right, the people don't know the difference in Skyways or Commuter Rail or Light Rail, but then neither does JTA. In the most pure form, all ARE types of Commuter Rail. The real pinch is that our words Commuter Rail usually means a DMU or Locomotive Hauled Passenger Train of railroad size. But the public should be made aware that all rail that carries passengers in an urban setting, is in fact, Commuter Rail.
Ocklawaha
This one is pretty funny:
QuoteIt's like Miami, where I used to live, and which invested lots of taxpayers' money in a little-used system. Stations invariably required blocks of walking to and from. However, it was popular with the politicians who had to endure fact-finding trips to Paris before finalizing their plans. Jacksonville politicos, of course, would be above such boondoggles. - George Patrick, Amelia Island
:D
Jokes aside, South Florida is laughing at us right now. At least those residents now have the option of hoping on Tri-Rail, Metromover and Metrorail instead of paying almost $4 for a gallon of gas and they appear to be taking that option.
QuoteTri-Rail ridership hits another high point
Tri-Rail announced Wednesday it broke another ridership record -- exceeding the 16,000 single-day mark for only the second time in the commuter rail system's history.
The 16,024 riders who boarded Tri-Rail on Tuesday made it the system's second-biggest day ever, exceeded only by the 18,452 passengers who used the three-county commuter train in June 2006 to attend the Miami Heat NBA championship victory parade.
With gas prices approaching $4 a gallon, and predicted to go higher, public transportation ridership is increasing across the U.S. Tri-Rail is among the nation's leading systems in terms of percentage growth in total ridership.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami_dade/story/542334.html
Out of a population of 5+ million, is 16,000 riders a day really a successful program though?
Well, we would have to take into account the fact that Tri-Rail does not and can not serve 5+ million residents with one single line. Its also one part of a very large mass transit network down there. For example, Metrorail, which only has one 22 mile long line, running between Hialeah and Kendall carries nearly 60,000 riders a day. Metrobus, Metromover, Broward County Transit and Palm Tran (all integrated with Tri-Rail) carry thousands more. The major point is South Florida residents have a variety of options, we don't and won't as long as attitudes like George Patrick's remain the norm.
So my wife and I were going to see her grandparents at marsh landing tonight so I was trying to talk her into riding the bus, from River City market place to the beach, and I almost had her talked into it, So i figured up the cost of the bus vs. The cost of driving my car....and the results, I can drive my car from Callahan to Marsh landing nearly 2$ cheaper than it would cost to take the bus, and I can go on my schedule. So with gas a 3.88 its still cheaper to drive... :-\
Quote from: RiversideGator on May 22, 2008, 04:22:00 PM
Out of a population of 5+ million, is 16,000 riders a day really a successful program though?
add on top of that the ridership on the south route of Metrorail....as much as 25% of commuter trips along the US 1 corridor are on metrorail!
Opinion
Miss Traffic vs. i-Ride: Clash of the Transit Contests
Contributed by Fred Camino on February 22nd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Transit Prize Fight
Who will win, Metro’s Miss Traffic or Capital Metro’s i-Ride?
Cue the Rocky theme song, because today ladies and gentlemen, we here at MetroRiderLA are bringing you ringside to the transit fight of the season….
Miss TrafficIn one corner we have the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transit Authority, better known as Metro. Metro is a heavyweight in the transit world, holding the record for third largest transit agency in the country. Metro has a daily ridership of 1.6 million people, 191 bus routes covering 1,433 square miles, 5 rail lines (3 light rail and 2 subway) with 73 miles of track, and was voted “America’s Best†in 2006 by the American Public Transit Association. In addition, Metro has made numerous television and film appearances. Metro is the very definition of a contender.
i-RideIn the other corner we have the Capital Metropolitan Transit Authority, also known as Capital Metro. This bantamweight from Austin, TX is scrappy in every sense of the word. With only 68 bus routes, no rail (a commuter line is scheduled to open this year), and a ridership of 130,000, Capital Metro is a David to Metro’s Goliath. Sure Capital Metro offers dirt cheap fares (50 cents is the most you’ll pay), interactive Google based bus maps, HTML formated schedules, and Wi-Fi access for passengers, but does that stuff even matter?
What’s brought these two clearly unbalanced fighters here today is the marketing contests both agencies are currently promoting. Metro will henceforth be represented by Miss Traffic and Capital Metro will be reprsented by i-Ride. Miss Traffic and i-Ride are both contests that attempt to get people excited about transit by telling stories about why they ride. This fight is over which contest is better.
Let’s get ready to rumble!!!
Round 1 - Concept
Both Miss Traffic and i-Ride are based on the idea of riders telling, in their own words, why they ride their respective systems.
* Miss Traffic blurb:
Did you knit a sweater for your grandmother on the 920 while missing all the traffic on Wilshire Boulevard? Do you study for exams on the Red Line while missing the Hollywood Freeway gridlock? Or do you just relax with your iPod and stare out at all the traffic you’re missing from the window of Metro Local Line 204? Here’s your chance to be “crowned†as the next Miss Traffic! Just tell us how you miss traffic by going Metro.
* i-Ride blurb:
Why do you ride Capital Metro? Tell us. It’s what our new i-Ride campaign is all about â€" you and the reasons why you take the bus. Enter our “Tell Us Your Story†contest and let us know how you use Capital Metro to get you to wherever your life takes you.
WINNER:
i-Ride
i-Ride
Miss Traffic just can’t compete in this round. Sure, the overall concept is the same, but she has some fatal kinks in her armor. Mostly, the pun-y name. Miss Traffic? So are we eliminating all men from this contest? I know in Mexico they are eliminating men from buses, but c’mon! I don’t know how many guys, save for some along Santa Monica Boulevard, no matter how much they love Metro, are going to want to be crowned “Miss Trafficâ€. But that’s not all that’s wrong with the name. “Miss Trafficâ€, to me, sounds like “I miss trafficâ€â€¦ “miss†meaning regretting the absence of. The query, “Just tell us how you miss trafficâ€, makes me want to write something like “I miss traffic because no matter how bad it is it sure beats sitting next to this smelly vagrant and having 3 buses pass me by when I Go Metroâ€. Of course, Metro intends for it to mean “how do you AVOID trafficâ€. The problem with puns, aside from being lame, is that if a word has more than two meanings (â€miss†has at least 14 according to Dictionary.com) you’re going to have the opportunity for tons of puns that may mess up your intended pun. Tons of puns is not much fun.
i-Ride, on the other hand, is a great name. It instantly targets a demographic and generation, and references a thing that is pretty much universally loved, the i-Pod. It’s witty and smart, and doesn’t confuse the message. i-Ride cleanly translates into “I ride because…†which is what the whole contest is about. i-Ride throws a knock-out punch on this round.
Round 2 - Entering the Contest
How do you play the game?
* Miss Traffic asks riders to submit their stories via a web-based form and to keep the stories to 100 words or less.
* i-Ride encourages riders to submit their stories online as videos (via YouTube), writing (500 word limit), song, or artwork.
WINNER:
i-Ride
i-Ride
Miss Traffic falls again in Round 2. In fact, she got positively walloped. 100 measly words? Doesn’t really give a lot of room for creative freedom. To get an idea of what 100 words is, check out this brief MetroRiderLA post about the awesome Madrid Metro advertisement… it rings in at 110 words. i-Ride gives you the chance to use up to 500 words, but it also lets you use other mediums, including the ever popular YouTube video. How much more interesting is it from a marketing perspective to see a video, song or artwork created about your organization rather than a few paltry words. And how very 2008 of Capital Metro to make use of internet technologies in their contest. i-Ride encourages and enables its riders to be creative, Miss Traffic is simply passing out busy work.
Round 3 - Web Site
Both contests are web based, so who has the better site?
* Miss Traffic can be reached by clicking the Miss Traffic image on the Metro.net home page. From there you are taken to a page with news briefs and a loud Metro commercial that automatically plays. There is also a blurb about Miss Traffic and a link to the Miss Traffic page. Or you can simply type in the URL: http://www.metro.net/riding_metro/riders_guide/misstraffic_contest.htm . The page itself contains the now famous Miss Traffic photograph, a few paragraphs about the contest, and links to the entry from and the contest rules.
* i-Ride has its own website and URL: http://www.iridecapmetro.org/ . The home page is features a charming and colorful animated illustration and the option to customize the color of the page. Clicking the “Contest†link will take you to a new page (with more charming illustrations) that has the contest summary, inspirational tips, and links to the entry forms for the different categories (video, writing, song, and art). There’s also a section on the site called “i-Riders†which has submissions and profiles of the submitters and allows comments and ratings. The “Community†section has links to the i-Ride Facebook profile, YouTube Channel, and Flickr Pool.
WINNER:
i-Ride
i-Ride
Oh, that was BRUTAL. i-Ride totally smashed Miss Traffic’s pretty little face in this round. A unique and good URL, a full site instead of just a page, lovely illustrations, Web 2.0 connections, what more could you ask for? Miss Traffic gives us one pathetic page that’s not particularly attractive or easy to get to. I can see why she didn’t get a unique URL though, imisstraffic.com would be a bit odd for a transit agency (see Round 1). KO.
Round 4 - Prizes
Miss Traffic has taken a pummeling the last few rounds, but maybe she’s got a great prize to give away that a lightweight like i-Ride just can’t offer…
* Miss Traffic entries will be judged and three finalists will be chosen. These lucky three will receive the following: one (1) Metro T-Shirt valued at approximately $15. The finalists will also be featured in short videos in which they can tell their stories, and the video will be posted online for others to vote on their favorite. The winner of this vote will be crowned Miss Traffic and will receive the following: one (1) faux tiara, one (1) sash, and one (1) bouquet with an approximate total value of $50.
* i-Ride will have 13 winners: 1 Grand Prize Winner, 1 First Prize Winner, 1 Second Prize Winner, and 10 Third Prize Winners. The Grand Prize Winner will be able to choose from the following: one (1) 8gb iPhone (valued at $399) and $500 cash -OR- one (1) 8gb iPod Touch (valued at $299) with a $100 iTunes Gift Card and $500 cash. First Prize Winners will receive the following: one (1) 8gb iPod Nano (valued at $199). Second Prize Winners will receive the following: one (1) iPod Shuffle (valued at $49). Third Prize Winners all receive: one (1) $15 iTunes Gift Card.
WINNER:
i-Ride
i-Ride
TKO. Someone check Miss Traffic’s pulse, I’ve never seen anyone take a clobbering like that. A Metro T-Shirt? Are you KIDDING ME? Left-over props from the Miss Traffic photo shoot??? Is this a JOKE? Miss Traffic’s prizes are so pathetic I’m not even sure it can be called a contest anymore. I mean you’d have to PAY ME to take the faux tiara and sash, I’m sure as heck not writing 100 words for it. I can’t think of any human on this earth who would want those prizes. i-Ride on the other hand has AWESOME prizes. The most in-demand gadget of our time? CHECK. A massive amount of cash? CHECK. Tons of other prizes? CHECK. I’m thinking of moving to Austin for a while just to make a video and win the damn iPhone.
OVERALL WINNER: i-Ride… duh. Your faux tiara is in the mail Capital Metro. You deserve it.
Quote from: Tommi Cleme on May 22, 2008, 08:33:52 AM
Quote
Look at Atlanta: I am definitely a proponent of a light rail system in Jacksonville, and I would certainly use it rather than drive my vehicle daily. This would be an excellent way to save money on buying gas, and I think it would ease congestion on the highways. When I was a resident of Atlanta, I used the MARTA rail system regularly and it was great. - Tommi Cleme, Jacksonville
Hmmmm...Im learning that many people don't use trains because its hassle. I actually hear that a lot here in Atlanta, especially from the chicks. They want the train to be there as soon as they walk up. Using trains DOES save money. It also keeps you healthy from walking from station to destination. I only use my car when I really really really have to. With planning you can go where you want on time. Its nice to have the OTHER OPTION. Funny thing is I actually had to teach new friends that lived here most of their life how to use the train, only after arguments of way it was so ridiculous to drive where we were going. I hope Jax get trains...I really really do. And I appreciate all the cats behind this site, but the people of the city (turtles) I just don't trust they will us it. Even if built perfectly.
Quote from: Jason on May 22, 2008, 09:49:49 AM
I also noticed there is still a big misconception on the type of rail that MetroJacksonville is proposing. Light rail is NOT commuter rail. We need to continue to educate the masses on the differences.
Your right, because honestly I still don't know nor understand the difference. I know there was a topic on here one time when Ock was dropping knowledge, but I was still a lil confused.
Hey I know the difference between Monorail and Heavy Rail ;D ;D......do I get any points for that??
^ 10 points to you Coolyfett.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 22, 2008, 04:30:59 PM
Well, we would have to take into account the fact that Tri-Rail does not and can not serve 5+ million residents with one single line. Its also one part of a very large mass transit network down there. For example, Metrorail, which only has one 22 mile long line, running between Hialeah and Kendall carries nearly 60,000 riders a day. Metrobus, Metromover, Broward County Transit and Palm Tran (all integrated with Tri-Rail) carry thousands more. The major point is South Florida residents have a variety of options, we don't and won't as long as attitudes like George Patrick's remain the norm.
I am all for mass transit but in a time of smaller budgets, we have to set priorities. I was just pointing out that perhaps some of these systems are not as effective as we would hope.
Of course, like war isn't always as effective as we would hope ;). This is one of the reasons, we've been pushing a commuter rail focused alternative over traditional light rail. Its more cost effective, given our finances and landscape.
However, we are finding out now that the decisions South Florida made to investment in rail based transit during the 1980s, was the right choice. Twice as money money would have had to be invested in South Florida's roads to accomodate the traffic those rail systems now carry. Probably three times as much would have to be invested now, to construct what they built 20 years ago. We also can't under estimate the amount of infill development the city has had occur because it offers the alternative of rail based mass transit. Without rail in place, there's a good argument that the real estate boom Miami just went through, could have had more of an impact in the unincorporated suburbs, as opposed to the actual city.
http://news.jacksonville.com/justin/2008/05/28/trains-in-jacksonville/
The T-U is (again) looking for thoughts on commuter rail in Jacksonville:
"Would you be interested in commuting to work on a train? The Jacksonville Transportation Authority is now conducting a study looking into the feasibility of having more commuter rail in the Jacksonville area. Is it a good idea to have commuter rail? Where should the trains go? Tell Florida Times-Union reporter Larry Hannan what you think by calling him at (904) 359-4470 or e-mail him at larry.hannan@jacksonville.com"
As of now, there are 67 comments, with only 3 saying it wouldn't work (plus 2 that are just ridiculous - thank you T-U Commenters)
When was the last time 95% of any group agreed on anything?
A few are funny:
QuoteWe should all just stick to our hummers. Trains are for unamerican sissies.
QuoteI would prefere to drill for oil through the heads of liberals and up the carabou’s rump! I am an American, not a friggin’ European. I want my car not a train!
Quote from: thelakelander on May 28, 2008, 06:09:30 PM
A few are funny:
QuoteWe should all just stick to our hummers. Trains are for unamerican sissies.
QuoteI would prefere to drill for oil through the heads of liberals and up the carabou’s rump! I am an American, not a friggin’ European. I want my car not a train!
Those were actually the two that I excluded above.
I love when people talk about transit systems needing to be subsidized. No form of transit is subsidized like roads you have the occasional toll road but most is just our tax money.
No doubt. Compared to road construction and upkeep, rail is a drop in the bucket.