Is All Aboard Florida A Match For Jacksonville?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3706194648_dngKk5x-M.jpg)
Quietly in late August, construction began on All Aboard Florida (AAF), a $2.5 billion passenger rail system that could eventually reach Jacksonville. The FEC eliminated passenger rail services between Jacksonville and Miami in 1968, during one of the most violet labor conflicts of the 20th century. While these days may be gone, what does appear to be back is Henry Morrison Flagler’s 19th century use of passenger rail along Florida’s East Coast as a means to enhance real estate development around railroad stations. Is it possible for Jacksonville to take advantage of the economic opportunity that could be headed its way?
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-nov-is-all-aboard-florida-a-match-for-jacksonville
Quick reply from the Jacksonville city council "What...Huh??? how much asphalt?"
Seriously, Ennis good article. I hope AAF is something Jacksonville chooses to use and leverage some of this city's future growth.
^more like "Let's spend a few million studying this and when the 'study' is done we can study some more." 25 years later "Turns out the Prime Osborn wasn't properly maintained so we can't use that. Let's do another study to see what our other options are."
Have cities like West Palm, et al contributed to the feasibility/ridership/economic studies for AAF... or has that been 100% done by AAF?
Obviously, there has to be a lot of coordination b/w public and private agencies in regards to land use planning, connectivity, etc issues at a local level... but were the initial studies a public/private partnership with municipalities, or completely handled by AAF?
100% funded by AAF.
I'm sure there are some that will say since AAF did the study, it is wrong, or biased. I'm sure they would not do this if not profitable. It's like they are opening a kiosk at the mall. This is major.
QuoteAAF plans to develop millions of square feet of commercial, office, and residential development around its downtown stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach.
So AAF owns the land surrounding the stations in all these cities? How and when did they obtain it? And if the answer is yes, that's your answer to them coming to Jacksonville. If they control the land surrounding a future station, they'll come. If they don't, why would they.
Quote from: finehoe on November 19, 2014, 10:42:21 AM
QuoteAAF plans to develop millions of square feet of commercial, office, and residential development around its downtown stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach.
So AAF owns the land surrounding the stations in all these cities? How and when did they obtain it? And if the answer is yes, that's your answer to them coming to Jacksonville. If they control the land surrounding a future station, they'll come. If they don't, why would they.
AAF is owned by Florida East Coast Industries. FECI also owns Flagler Development which is a huge commercial real estate company that owns all this land. Both of these companies are owned by Fortress Investments.
What do the people at JTA have to say about this topic? Have there been any interviews with them?
Most of the land surrounding the Prime Osborn is owned by JTA. From what I understand, AAF reps have been talking with JTA staff about some of the land and potential opportunities in the past year or two.
Quote from: cline on November 19, 2014, 10:47:23 AM
Quote from: finehoe on November 19, 2014, 10:42:21 AM
QuoteAAF plans to develop millions of square feet of commercial, office, and residential development around its downtown stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach.
So AAF owns the land surrounding the stations in all these cities? How and when did they obtain it? And if the answer is yes, that's your answer to them coming to Jacksonville. If they control the land surrounding a future station, they'll come. If they don't, why would they.
AAF is owned by Florida East Coast Industries. FECI also owns Flagler Development which is a huge commercial real estate company that owns all this land. Both of these companies are owned by Fortress Investments.
Fortress and Parkway have been looking at potential deals related to AAF in North Florida (not just Jacksonville). They certainly have interest. How feasible those opportunities are, is still a topic of conversation.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 19, 2014, 11:43:47 AM
Most of the land surrounding the Prime Osborn is owned by JTA. From what I understand, AAF reps have been talking with JTA staff about some of the land and potential opportunities in the past year or two.
Keep in mind, they already have major land holdings around FEC lines in Flagler, St Johns, Volusia, etc Counties
I've always wondered how affordable and usable this will be. If it's not cheaper than a plane and faster than a car, it won't compete. Maybe their land development ventures will pay off enough that they can keep the prices on the rides down.
As far as Jacksonville goes, it would be interesting if JTA could work something out with them to put some money into the transit center in exchange for a good deal on some of the surrounding property to develop. It sucks that our local leadership and media don't even seem to be aware of AAF.
I say sell the whole Prime Osborne back to the FEC, they built it in the first place.
I will believe it when I see FECI companies snatching up properties in strategic locations. They could probably build a station in San Marco south of Atlantic if they wanted to, their ROW is very wide there and most of the properties along the tracks there seem to be for sale.
They ended up purchasing additional property around the South Florida station sites for TOD. I suspect that the Prime would be attractive given the centralized location and blocks of available dirt surrounding it.
Quote from: mbwright on November 19, 2014, 10:22:05 AM
I'm sure there are some that will say since AAF did the study, it is wrong, or biased. I'm sure they would not do this if not profitable. It's like they are opening a kiosk at the mall. This is major.
I generally trust the private sector guys to get something right more than I trust the public sector to do so. That's not to say they can't be completely off, but I guarantee you there is a team of highly proficient private equity guys (i.e. FIG working together with FECI's best and brightest) working in conjunction with the highly proficient consulting guys (from one of the big firms from one of their top offices in one of the big cities, perhaps Miami) and some top real estate team from CBRE's Miami office or something like that (working with Flagler's top guys).
They have it put together, and no offense to the public sector guys, I would think the team they have is going to be smarter and more creative on average than if this were all done under the public umbrella.
Sounds like a very fun, very large and comprehensive private development to work on!
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2014, 12:46:18 PM
They ended up purchasing additional property around the South Florida station sites for TOD. I suspect that the Prime would be attractive given the centralized location and blocks of available dirt surrounding it.
Would be nice to get Bucky Clarkson out of the TOD business :)
Quote from: simms3 on November 19, 2014, 12:47:40 PM
They have it put together, and no offense to the public sector guys, I would think the team they have is going to be smarter and more creative on average than if this were all done under the public umbrella.
Perhaps, but hey have different priorities. The private sector is just interested in making as much as they can as soon as they can, and then, if necessary, bailing. The public sector has many more competing interests to consider.
No matter what their motives are, this clearly isn't a "make stacks and bail" situation. Getting into real estate development is playing the long game.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 19, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
No matter what their motives are, this clearly isn't a "make stacks and bail" situation. Getting into real estate development is playing the long game.
That's the point. It doesn't have to be any longer than long enough to find the next
sucker investor to sell it to.
QuoteThey have it put together, and no offense to the public sector guys, I would think the team they have is going to be smarter and more creative on average than if this were all done under the public umbrella.
The public sector uses the same consultants as AAF is using. Not a lot of public agencies do environmental impact statements (for example) in house.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 19, 2014, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 19, 2014, 11:43:47 AM
Most of the land surrounding the Prime Osborn is owned by JTA. From what I understand, AAF reps have been talking with JTA staff about some of the land and potential opportunities in the past year or two.
Keep in mind, they already have major land holdings around FEC lines in Flagler, St Johns, Volusia, etc Counties
Also, quite a while ago, Daytona leaders were informed by Congressman Mica's office that it would be prudent of them to start lobbying for a station of their own.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 19, 2014, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2014, 12:46:18 PM
They ended up purchasing additional property around the South Florida station sites for TOD. I suspect that the Prime would be attractive given the centralized location and blocks of available dirt surrounding it.
Would be nice to get Bucky Clarkson out of the TOD business :)
Yes, indeed.
^^^Yes, but I've personally witnessed the public sector get into the business of real estate development and seen them fail miserably (likewise, a private company not in the real estate business trying to enter it can run into similar blips).
My point was that aside from using a few lawyers and agencies to draft EIRs, many city run projects are handled by people with on average (imho) inferior capabilities as their private sector counterparts. Of course interests are different with a public project, and there are unique aspects that typically the private sector doesn't have to deal with, but overall private investment (as opposed to public interest) often spurs greater results and requires a deeper skill set (lack of government bureaucracy and ultimate flexibility/motivation for creativity and sheer smarts ensures this).
All the more reason for [most if not all] infrastructure projects to be handled by government (I guess these guys have found a way to make privatizing it work).
Quote from: finehoe on November 19, 2014, 01:50:41 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 19, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
No matter what their motives are, this clearly isn't a "make stacks and bail" situation. Getting into real estate development is playing the long game.
That's the point. It doesn't have to be any longer than long enough to find the next sucker investor to sell it to.
The thing about private investment in anything is that there are different types of investors looking for different types of returns. What you describe is a clouded, narrow-minded vision for private investment (AND, it's not like the public sector in FL is being proactive about rail or real estate!). There are plenty of investment platforms out there with managers who have fiduciary duties to uphold those investments to the best of their ability for long durations, promising varying types of returns along the way.
As others have noted, with a project of this scope, there are perhaps several different pockets of money available, perhaps several investing platforms/structures, perhaps several types of investors, and the strategy for an individual condo tower to be developed in Miami will be different overall than the strategy for any other building, rail investment, or other investment within the grander scheme of the project. You're right, though, they may want to throw up a few Architectonica shits in Miami and sell to all-cash Latin buyers as quickly as possible with minimal thought (cookie cutter high rise), to generate funds to build out the rail. I don't know which comes first, but I would assume most of the sub-investments (sub-funds perhaps?) are not necessarily crossed so they can have the flexibility they need.
Hey Lake,
Thanks for the AAF summary. Well worded and the civic challenge is right on.
If you think everyone is suddenly going to abandon driving their vehicles from city to city to jump on a train, I have some swamp land to sell you. Why is Amtrak always unprofitable if rail is such a thing of the future? I will use my car every time because I have something to get around the city where I am traveling to. If I go to Miami, I will drive rather than take the train and then rent a car. That's not efficient.
That's $2.5B with a B. Here's betting no one is putting their money on how many promises will not be fulfilled. 3M cars off the road? Ha Ha! Dream on!
QuoteIf you think everyone is suddenly going to abandon driving their vehicles from city to city to jump on a train, I have some swamp land to sell you. Why is Amtrak always unprofitable if rail is such a thing of the future?
To be fair, Amtrak IS profitable in the Northeast Corridor, although, to your point, there's a mass transit component in place in the cities up there that make it workable. I'm uncertain if this will work in Florida without investment in transit connections at each stop. But it might make a good tourist train and that might keep THEM off the roads...but, if that's the case, then it's less about regional transit and more about connecting tourist destinations.
While the TOD is certainly a part of the money making scheme, I do think they're looking at a long term reality here, which is to say that Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach...unless they depopulate...really have no choice but to densify even more and to incorporate mass transit. Tampa and Orlando MSAs, while nowhere near as populated nor as dense, are really...at the very least...building both dense cores and "fake downtowns," so while it may not make sense today...it might tomorrow.
Or global warming will drown the state and everyone will live densely anyway, because we have no choice.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on November 19, 2014, 09:22:08 PM
If you think everyone is suddenly going to abandon driving their vehicles from city to city to jump on a train, I have some swamp land to sell you. Why is Amtrak always unprofitable if rail is such a thing of the future? I will use my car every time because I have something to get around the city where I am traveling to. If I go to Miami, I will drive rather than take the train and then rent a car. That's not efficient.
That's $2.5B with a B. Here's betting no one is putting their money on how many promises will not be fulfilled. 3M cars off the road? Ha Ha! Dream on!
Good for you. Something tells me that the group and investors behind AAF probably aren't counting on Redbaron616 to make their endeavor a success either. They didn't make their billions by being idiots when it comes to thinking out their investment strategies. At the end of the day, regardless of whether they can pry your knuckles off your steering wheel or not, they believe they can provide a 100% privately funded mobility option on their own dime and make cash off of it. More power to them.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on November 19, 2014, 09:46:52 PM
QuoteIf you think everyone is suddenly going to abandon driving their vehicles from city to city to jump on a train, I have some swamp land to sell you. Why is Amtrak always unprofitable if rail is such a thing of the future?
To be fair, Amtrak IS profitable in the Northeast Corridor, although, to your point, there's a mass transit component in place in the cities up there that make it workable.
To be fair, Amtrak isn't profitable in the Northeast Corridor if you include cost to maintain the tracks their trains operate on. I believe their "profitability" is based on funds needed to operate and other entities are responsible for everything thing else.
QuoteI'm uncertain if this will work in Florida without investment in transit connections at each stop. But it might make a good tourist train and that might keep THEM off the roads...but, if that's the case, then it's less about regional transit and more about connecting tourist destinations.
This probably doesn't work if we're thinking of AAF's financing model being the same as a typical public transit system. However, it's not. AAF is a subsidiary of FECI with is owned by Fentress. Another Fentress company, FEC already owns and makes a profit off the infrastructure. So it's not like a new passenger rail system starting from scratch. Flagler Development, another subsidiary, is involved in real estate development and already owns thousands of acres along FEC's corridor. Rail enhancements made to provide AAF access to Orlando also open the door for FEC to provide freight service to one of the largest and most rapidly growing metropolitan areas in the state.
Infrastructure upgrades on FEC's tracks in South Florida also improve their ability to move freight from those ports and opens the door for commuter rail on FEC's tracks, which makes the numbers for their TOD look even better. When you own everything indirectly related, you can probably break even or make a profit on the passenger rail operations itself (assuming there's a market, which there appears to be).
My guess is passenger rail is being implemented in a innovate means that leads to all of their other subsidiaries also making more profit in their areas of focus. A brilliant plan that more should follow, if you ask me. The funny part is, this isn't some new sort of strategy. It's how modern Florida and most of America were built.
I wonder how much of it is connection fees. For instance, MCO. They aren't getting a stop for free. Will Disney/LBV be connected? While not "publicly funded", I wonder if the Cities of Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and Palm Beach are paying indirectly to have a stop on the line?
Finally, they are touting Miami to Orlando in 3 hours. That's pretty darn good. And considering the intracity traffic between the two, it could be quite a hit.
And $2.5Bn for this much rail is nothing. What IS something is the amount of eggs in just one basket (basically one PE group and its subsidiaries essentially making a bet on the quite risky and ever volatile in every which way State of Florida). FECI could be by far the largest investment in one of FIG's funds (and subsequently this could jeopardize their investment in FECI, or it could be a boon).
To put things in perspective, here in CA, more specifically the Bay Area, just to electrify our existing commuter rail line is projected to cost over $2Bn (that is right now all trains are pulled by DMUs, but they need to electrify the system to expand capacity and allow for CA HSR). Just to build a transit center in DT SF to accomodate an electrified Caltrain underground and potentially CA HSR, and buses, with a park on top, is costing $4.5 Bn. A 1.7 mile underground extension of Muni Metro here in SF is costing $1.6Bn (that is one billion dollars per mile). CA HSR is projected to cost $65+ Bn. The Eastern span of the Bay Bridge was replaced for $6.4 Bn. A new BRT line down Van Ness (just 2-3 miles worth) will cost $125M.
So all in all, that is $14.7 Bn for a BRT route, 1.7 miles of LRT subway, electrification of an existing commuter rail line, a central transit center that only includes 2 modes, and half of a bridge.
So rail around the entire state of FL for a few billy is pretty pretty good!
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2014, 10:23:32 PM
My guess is passenger rail is being implemented in a innovate means that leads to all of their other subsidiaries also making more profit in their areas of focus. A brilliant plan that more should follow, if you ask me. The funny part is, this isn't some new sort of strategy. It's how modern Florida and most of America were built.
There are definitely synergies. No major investor of a publicly traded company such as FECI would allow for such a bold move if there weren't upside across multiple areas of the business. It could be a way of doubling down to increase risk somewhere, and thus return.
I don't think any of the South Florida cities are paying indirectly to have a stop on the line. Keep in mind that FEC has owned huge parcels of land in downtown Miami since the days of Flagler. Time will tell if AAF is a success, but clearly FECI believes it will be. As for the question of whether people will give up driving between Miami and Orlando, I'd bet yes on that one. A three hour train ride will be faster than flying when you factor in all of the waiting time at the airport. There's no question tourists will make up much of the potential customer base...and the transit necessary to get people from the downtown station to Miami Beach on one end, or Disney and other tourists sites on the other end is or will be in place. For non-tourists, the train alternative makes plenty of sense too...and you can always pick up a rental car when you arrive, just as flyers do.
Conceivably, the money from the real estate ventures associated with the project, in addition to improved infrastructure for freight trains, is worth the price of admission for FEC.
Quote from: simms3 on November 19, 2014, 10:26:08 PM
I wonder how much of it is connection fees. For instance, MCO. They aren't getting a stop for free. Will Disney/LBV be connected? While not "publicly funded", I wonder if the Cities of Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and Palm Beach are paying indirectly to have a stop on the line?
I wouldn't loop Orlando's plans for Sunrail, Fort Lauderdale's plans for the Wave Streetcar, and Miami's Metrorail and Metromover as "connection fees" for AAF. These are all transit projects those cities already have or were proposing anyway. In Orlando, FEC stepping in pretty much fills the void created by the death of the old Florida High Speed Rail project. Instead of the first phase going to Tampa, it will be going to Miami. Nevertheless, because they do complement each other, these public investments bolster AAF's potential, while AAF feeds riders into them as well.
^^^Right, but I wasn't even referring to other transit modes (because it's FL, none even came to mind), however, now that you bring that up, why wouldn't AAF charge Sunrail some sort of fee? Who complements who, more? A big railway like AAF is going to have many more riders than those who ride Sunrail daily - I would bet Sunrail benefits more from connecting to AAF than AAF benefits from connecting to Sunrail.
And Sunrail being a public agency tasked with providing public (for a ticket price) access to transportation to the area's destinations, it would seem logical that in a way an airline pays gate fees it would pay AAF for a direct connection, or at least cover 100% of the cost to connect the two as seamlessly as possible.
In Jacksonville's case, why would Flagler pick up downtown land to develop? It's far too risky and probably isn't accretive to the overall AAF scheme. So all FECI has in Jacksonville's case is a connection to a smaller metro with less flow to the other two (not like an Orlando-Miami connection). Why would FECI cover all the costs to provide that service? It's not a public agency. I would assume it benefits Jacksonville more than Jacksonville benefits it, so why wouldn't they demand something from Jacksonville to bring AAF up?
I guess that's what I meant by "connection fee".
It's really no different than heavy rail out to suburban counties (or similarly, a highway). The added infrastructure benefits the county more than the county benefits the overall system (it really taxes the system), so the county should pay for the connection.
It's also no different than real estate development. In DT Jax, the City needs to provide a ton of incentives to make something pencil because whatever gets built at this point is going to benefit the city moreso than the benefit received on the developer's part for building something downtown. The reverse is true in a boomtown, such as Boston or SF right now. If a developer wants to build something, he must pay the city a boatload to play.
I'm sure FECI sees a roadmap to operational profitability when looking at the rail by itself, however, I would think that its profitability comes from sheer scope and expansion, which in my mind would include these sort of connection/pay to play fees.
Quote from: simms3 on November 19, 2014, 11:39:56 PM
In Jacksonville's case, why would Flagler pick up downtown land to develop? It's far too risky and probably isn't accretive to the overall AAF scheme. So all FECI has in Jacksonville's case is a connection to a smaller metro with less flow to the other two (not like an Orlando-Miami connection). Why would FECI cover all the costs to provide that service? It's not a public agency. I would assume it benefits Jacksonville more than Jacksonville benefits it, so why wouldn't they demand something from Jacksonville to bring AAF up?
I guess that's what I meant by "connection fee".
I believe the big bucks Fortress is betting on isn't coming from passenger rail. I think AAF is simply a means to enhance revenue opportunities for all of their various real estate and logistics businesses. That ROW and surrounding property can be utilized in a lot of revenue generating ways. So I don't see how charging a connection fee would would come into play or be viable. I doubt any of Florida's cash strapped cities would pay big bucks to play. Especially Jacksonville. We can't even keep our libraries open decent hours, so no why we're ponying up cash for a privately own and operated passenger train. In the event some are willing to pay, it's not known if areas willing to pay would be areas worth being served for the type of system being built. With that said, I don't know what FEC's true vision is. Ock seems to think what really makes sense from a passenger rail standpoint is an eventual Miami to Atlanta route via a partnership with NS. If that's the case, Jax becomes a place that benefits from being in the right place and the right time.
^^^Miami would be the big real estate play (obviously), and the vast bulk of that is condos, which I would think don't necessarily need AAF (foreign buyers come to Miami with or without rail and they don't live there year round, or often at all). I agree cash strapped cities won't pay anything, was just something I was positing.
I would bet that AAF essentially replaces Tri-Rail in South FL. DT Palm Beach to DT Miami, a far better route than Tri-Rail. I think FIG is looking at at least a decade's time with its general rail investment in FL. There's no way running an Amtrak like service, albeit improved, is profitable on its own. But technologies are improving at a rapid rate (to lower cost and really speed things up) and you have infrastructure that serves to benefit your other investments in the state, and with time you can exit by selling the dream (perhaps sell FECI altogether rather than Flagler, AAF, FEC, etc separately). I think they really need CA HSR to get going though. There needs to be momentum at some point, not pipe dreams.
Also keep in mind that because FIG is a very traditional and quite large PE firm that has many many focuses, FECI could be owned by more than one fund with similar, but perhaps slightly different strategies. I was just looking into their business. I think, from what I've read, that FECI is wholly owned by FIG through one fund or another (rather than a JV between funds run by two or more separate firms). They also own Intrawest, which is the 2nd largest investor in a company that counts my firm as the majority investor, an asset that I work on. Flagler was valued separately from FECI, which indicates to me that for all intents and purposes, FIG treats them as two separate entities (one with RE backing and another with other assets backing it, e.g. infrastructure and a business). Intrawest and Flagler are two of FIG's largest investments.
With that said, I'm really impressed with the comprehensiveness of this. Through Flagler, FIG owns a ton of industrial land, and it owns directly and indirectly several logistics companies (or solutions companies).
To all those who think FIG is trying to rape and pillage the state for profits, and trying to build it all and get out quick, it really won't work that way. All of this only works, over time, as a series of complimentary businesses under the control of one sort of control tower.
My own firm controls the largest mortgage REIT in the country, and through that REIT owns LNR, which itself controls a large stake of Auction.com. In similar fashion, one of our funds owns a ton of land around the country. We develop lots and then sell to homebuilders. The same fund happens to be the largest shareholder of one of the top 10 largest homebuilders in the country (a conglomerate of about 6-7 homebuilders under one overall umbrella...one ticker).
So just examples of investment vehicles with many complimentary investments under the control of one firm.
I think the analogy to Nashville's new convention center is real, too. That's a solid foundation to stand on, speaking for other investments in the area. I doubt real estate developers (locals/partnerships, hotel groups, etc) would have considered SoBro for a very long time without the CC. Whether or not the CC actually benefits a condo tower or a new hotel that's more dependent on greater Nashville market conditions than CC business is beside the point. It's a story and a foundation for someone to make a bet. There's no bet to be made without some sort of foundation.
Developing a condo tower on its own in DT Miami doesn't need AAF. However, as sort of a portfolio premium of sorts, perhaps you get condo pricing pop if you have a master-developed "center" around "Miami's 'Grand Central' of Florida", inclusive of retail, restaurants, office, and entertainment. All of that comes with a great story, great backing, and it's all about selling the dream, a dream which is marketed around this rail concept.
I don't know how Jax can't figure out how to gin up a tool like that with a solid public works, such as a convention center. Show me a single new convention center that hasn't led to some sort of revitalization of an area and significant economic development! I don't give a shit if bookings are dropping - it's still a tool that should be used.
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2014, 01:15:43 AM
^^^Miami would be the big real estate play (obviously), and the vast bulk of that is condos, which I would think don't necessarily need AAF (foreign buyers come to Miami with or without rail and they don't live there year round, or often at all). I agree cash strapped cities won't pay anything, was just something I was positing.
I would bet that AAF essentially replaces Tri-Rail in South FL. DT Palm Beach to DT Miami, a far better route than Tri-Rail. I think FIG is looking at at least a decade's time with its general rail investment in FL. There's no way running an Amtrak like service, albeit improved, is profitable on its own. But technologies are improving at a rapid rate (to lower cost and really speed things up) and you have infrastructure that serves to benefit your other investments in the state, and with time you can exit by selling the dream (perhaps sell FECI altogether rather than Flagler, AAF, FEC, etc separately). I think they really need CA HSR to get going though. There needs to be momentum at some point, not pipe dreams.
Also keep in mind that because FIG is a very traditional and quite large PE firm that has many many focuses, FECI could be owned by more than one fund with similar, but perhaps slightly different strategies. I was just looking into their business. I think, from what I've read, that FECI is wholly owned by FIG through one fund or another (rather than a JV between funds run by two or more separate firms). They also own Intrawest, which is the 2nd largest investor in a company that counts my firm as the majority investor, an asset that I work on. Flagler was valued separately from FECI, which indicates to me that for all intents and purposes, FIG treats them as two separate entities (one with RE backing and another with other assets backing it, e.g. infrastructure and a business). Intrawest and Flagler are two of FIG's largest investments.
From what I understand, Tri-Rail will expand with a second line down FEC's tracks.
QuoteTri-Rail moving ahead with coastal railroad expansion
A plan to expand Tri-Rail service would deliver commuters smack in the center of downtowns from West Palm Beach to Miami.
A proposed Tri-Rail service, called the "Coastal Link," would use the train tracks running through coastal downtown communities such as West Palm Beach, Boca Raton and Fort Lauderdale. The trains would be added to the Florida East Coast Railway tracks that run along Dixie Highway, but would not replace Tri-Rail service on the tracks along Interstate 95.
Earlier this year, Tri-Rail and All Aboard Florida reached an agreement on how the two services would operate. Basically, they agreed not to compete with each other, leaving Tri-Rail as the local commuter service and All Aboard Florida as a limited-stop service.
Two construction projects critical to Tri-Rail's coastal service are in the works. Work on two additional connections that link the coastal railroad to the tracks near I-95 should begin within a year. Those connections would allow Tri-Rail trains to travel between the two railways.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2014-08-23/news/fl-tri-rail-coastal-link-20140816_1_tri-rail-service-coastal-tracks-second-track
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2014, 01:15:43 AM
I would bet that AAF essentially replaces Tri-Rail in South FL. DT Palm Beach to DT Miami, a far better route than Tri-Rail.
umm, no. TriRail charges about $6 for that trip and AAF will charge about $35.
As Lake noted, TriRail is looking to run a second line on the AAF tracks. They will come into AAF's Miami Central Station and TriRail will pay AAF about $50 million for the extra track, platform, and station needs.
How much will Tri Rail pay FEC to use their tracks and infrastructure? Curious as to how that works because I'm sure FEC will be making money on it.
Are the additional Tri Rail trains included in the AAF traffic and bridge studies? If not they better hope no one realizes it.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 20, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2014, 01:15:43 AM
I would bet that AAF essentially replaces Tri-Rail in South FL. DT Palm Beach to DT Miami, a far better route than Tri-Rail.
umm, no. TriRail charges about $6 for that trip and AAF will charge about $35.
As Lake noted, TriRail is looking to run a second line on the AAF tracks. They will come into AAF's Miami Central Station and TriRail will pay AAF about $50 million for the extra track, platform, and station needs.
Well there we go...Tri Rail will presumably pay AAF to operate on its tracks and will shuffle over. There's still no reason that "AAF won't replace Tri Rail" effectively, as Tri Rail's older tracks would become largely obsolete, and they are shuffling over in recognition that it's a superior route (and as it stands now, there isn't much ridership on Tri Rail's current tracks).
Quote from: acme54321 on November 20, 2014, 08:49:44 AM
Are the additional Tri Rail trains included in the AAF traffic and bridge studies? If not they better hope no one realizes it.
the bridge and traffic concerns are north of Palm Beach County. TriRail will not run further north than Jupiter.
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2014, 11:04:11 AM
Well there we go...Tri Rail will presumably pay AAF to operate on its tracks and will shuffle over. There's still no reason that "AAF won't replace Tri Rail" effectively, as Tri Rail's older tracks would become largely obsolete, and they are shuffling over in recognition that it's a superior route (and as it stands now, there isn't much ridership on Tri Rail's current tracks).
what the heck are you talking about? The current TriRail ridership is pretty decent for a single line system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_commuter_rail_systems_by_ridership
The current tracks are very conveniently located for capturing commuters on the I-95 corridor. Plus, for long-haul trips (like West Palm to Miami) that line will still be far superior. The new line will be more like urban commuter rail with stops every 1-2 miles (like BART).
Quote from: finehoe on November 19, 2014, 10:42:21 AM
So AAF owns the land surrounding the stations in all these cities? How and when did they obtain it? And if the answer is yes, that's your answer to them coming to Jacksonville. If they control the land surrounding a future station, they'll come. If they don't, why would they.
Julia Tuttle purchased the Egan grant of 640 acres (1-square mile) which included the original Fort Dallas buildings which she rebuilt into her own home. Tuttle had long envisioned a city on Biscayne Bay, and when the Great Freeze of 1895 cut down agriculture as far south as West Palm Beach, Tuttle sent Henry Flagler a box of fresh flowers from her garden. Flagler sent a task force to investigate agreeing to divide her property between them in alternating parcels, as well as supplying a depot, hotel, streets, water, power, school and church... The first train arrived on April 15, 1896, and within a week the city was a massive construction site. THIS is where the railroad got the land which has been divided, sold, built up, torn down, resold, repurchased, rebuilt, etc.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on November 19, 2014, 09:22:08 PM
If you think everyone is suddenly going to abandon driving their vehicles from city to city to jump on a train, I have some swamp land to sell you. Why is Amtrak always unprofitable if rail is such a thing of the future? I will use my car every time because I have something to get around the city where I am traveling to. If I go to Miami, I will drive rather than take the train and then rent a car. That's not efficient.
Amtrak is only 'unprofitable' because the entire national system, with the exception of a few short corridors, try to support all of the infrastructure, shared maintenance, some track ownership and maintenance, stations, staff, commissary, supply, locomotive and car maintenance and about 100 other tasks with a single daily train in each direction. A couple of the routes even 'feature' tri-weekly service. This is like the government opening a Target store and only stocking a single shelf, and opening one hour a day. Lose money? You betcha!
In the bigger picture, Amtrak doesn't lose any more money and you didn't spend nearly as much for it in last years tax bill as you (and the rest of us) did for the street in front of your house, or JIA last year. Why would people ride? Its a choice made by the modern business and traveling public anywhere that the discovery of having 10 toes and 10 fingers isn't considered a major life achievement.
As for economics? It currently cost 'as little' as $319 dollars for economy and $517 for business class AIR FARE between Washington DC and New York City. That doesn't include the 'last mile' of your trip, which with air travel is typically more like 20 miles. The trip by car is 226 miles from downtown to downtown, consuming, 3 hours and 44 minutes. This doesn't include tolls (which are hefty) but at least you'd have your truck when you arrived. Oh and did I mention that according to AAA that trip will set you back $178.62 ONE-WAY or $357.24 roundtrip. The alternative of course is to take the train which will set you back $86 for coach, roundtrip or $149 for business class, consuming 2 hours and 45 minutes.
Tell you what, drive that wagon and start counting those toes and we'll wave from the window of the train as we leave you in the dust... ;)
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2014, 01:15:43 AM
I would bet that AAF essentially replaces Tri-Rail in South FL. DT Palm Beach to DT Miami, a far better route than Tri-Rail. I think FIG is looking at at least a decade's time with its general rail investment in FL. There's no way running an Amtrak like service, albeit improved, is profitable on its own.
AAF or Amtrak won't replace Tri-Rail on any route, they will compliment each other. There are a ton of ways that railroads operate on each others tracks, shared track, joint track, charged by the wheel, by the car, by the ton or through reciprocal agreements (example - FEC to Atlanta/NS to Miami). There will also be restrictions on tickets, tickets vended on one won't be usable on the other, typically a Amtrak or AAF schedule will read, 'stops to entrain or detain passengers to or from points north of West Palm Beach,' or 'no local fares.'
Amtrak could be marginally profitable, but the best opportunities for the long haul is to privatize it M/L in the AAF model through federal and state tax incentives. Indiana is about to launch a frequent 'Hoosier' service from Indianapolis to Chicago, with Louisville and Cincinnati on the 'expansion map,' through private operators.
QuoteI think they really need CA HSR to get going though. There needs to be momentum at some point, not pipe dreams.
On this front watch Texas, where the Japanese National Railroads are investing in a Houston-Dallas project that appears to have legs.
QuoteAlso keep in mind that because FIG is a very traditional and quite large PE firm that has many many focuses, FECI could be owned by more than one fund with similar, but perhaps slightly different strategies. I was just looking into their business. I think, from what I've read, that FECI is wholly owned by FIG...
...With that said, I'm really impressed with the comprehensiveness of this. Through Flagler, FIG owns a ton of industrial land, and it owns directly and indirectly several logistics companies (or solutions companies). ...To all those who think FIG is trying to rape and pillage the state for profits, and trying to build it all and get out quick, it really won't work that way. All of this only works, over time, as a series of complimentary businesses under the control of one sort of control tower.
Because railroads are extremely cash intensive most of those involved tend to be very conservative and traditional business models.
The biggest part of this as far as major cash flow is concerned is freight and the improvements that have been, and/or are are being made to the railroad. JAXPORT is at Port Canaveral, JAXPORT handles all Disney cargoes, FEC is positioned in Atlanta, Port of Miami is positioned for one additional 18,000 TEU container ship from the Orient per company, per year. HUGE. There is no way to escape the impact on Jacksonville (in spite of itself) as no rail car can enter or exit the peninsular of Florida without passing through our railroad yards. Jacksonville has a complete monopoly on Florida rail freight, a point not lost on FEC, CSX or NS.
Quote... if you have a master-developed "center" around "Miami's 'Grand Central' of Florida", inclusive of retail, restaurants, office, and entertainment. All of that comes with a great story, great backing, and it's all about selling the dream, a dream which is marketed around this rail concept.
I don't know how Jax can't figure out how to gin up a tool like that with a solid public works, such as a convention center. Show me a single new convention center that hasn't led to some sort of revitalization of an area and significant economic development! I don't give a shit if bookings are dropping - it's still a tool that should be used.
However one see's Jacksonville you cannot escape the fact that there are 1.4 million of us calling this home. There is still a lot of 'Old Florida' money floating around, international shipping and industrials, etc... There is simply no reason why Flagler/AAF/FIG/FECI couldn't pull off a smaller version of Grand Central at the traditional old railroad depot. The JTA revamp, BRT, Skyway expansion, are just a small part of what's going on behind the curtains. I promise!
I've got 10 on both my hands and feet! God, my sarcasm knows no bounds!
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 20, 2014, 11:38:10 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2014, 11:04:11 AM
Well there we go...Tri Rail will presumably pay AAF to operate on its tracks and will shuffle over. There's still no reason that "AAF won't replace Tri Rail" effectively, as Tri Rail's older tracks would become largely obsolete, and they are shuffling over in recognition that it's a superior route (and as it stands now, there isn't much ridership on Tri Rail's current tracks).
what the heck are you talking about? The current TriRail ridership is pretty decent for a single line system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_commuter_rail_systems_by_ridership
The current tracks are very conveniently located for capturing commuters on the I-95 corridor. Plus, for long-haul trips (like West Palm to Miami) that line will still be far superior. The new line will be more like urban commuter rail with stops every 1-2 miles (like BART).
Hmm, I don't think it's very good ridership, but what do I know. Caltrain is a very similar single line system with over 4x the ridership.
57,500 vs 14,600 (http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2014-q2-ridership-APTA.pdf) using essentially an equivalent system (single line DMU with no major DT stops) and through equivalent density down a highway corridor
Also, stops every 1-2 miles? That's 14-28 stops between Miami/Fort Lauderdale, and dozens more to West Palm (doesn't sound like commuter rail, and if they are using DMUs, that pretty much sucks as acceleration and deceleration, loading and offloading are inefficiently slow). They'll have to implement express trains if they want the network to be effective. Are there enough tracks for express trains? I'm assuming so if they're going to operate intracity rail on the same tracks.
Anyway, POINT STILL STANDS. Tri Rail is using AAF tracks to allow for commuting. That's no different than what I originally said, except by way of technicality.
Quote...the state of Florida provided land grants and financial assistance to railroad builders...
Gregg M. Turner. A Journey into Florida Railroad History. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008, ISBN 978-0-8130-3233-7.
Thank goodness there was no government interference in the economy or socialism in the 19th century.
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2014, 12:54:10 PM
Hmm, I don't think it's very good ridership, but what do I know. Caltrain is a very similar single line system with over 4x the ridership.
57,500 vs 14,600 (http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2014-q2-ridership-APTA.pdf) using essentially an equivalent system (single line DMU with no major DT stops) and through equivalent density down a highway corridor
Also, stops every 1-2 miles? That's 14-28 stops between Miami/Fort Lauderdale, and dozens more to West Palm (doesn't sound like commuter rail, and if they are using DMUs, that pretty much sucks as acceleration and deceleration, loading and offloading are inefficiently slow). They'll have to implement express trains if they want the network to be effective. Are there enough tracks for express trains? I'm assuming so if they're going to operate intracity rail on the same tracks.
^ 11 stops from downtown Ft. Lauderdale to downtown Miami to be exact. And yes, I agree that it will not be a quick train. That is why the current system will remain active and be more attractive for long distance commuters. Also don't forget that the current line goes to Miami International Airport and that is a big draw.
There is not room for express tracks on the coastal route. In fact, much of the coastal corridor is just a single track today.
As to TriRail's ridership, other than CalTrain, it is the best performing single line in the country. The stats link I provided shows that there are 24 commuter rail systems in the U.S. and that TriRail ranks 9th for passengers per mile. So yes, I stand by my challenge of your statement that "there isn't much ridership" on TriRail.
^^^Except that despite having 11 stops, it will still be quicker to get from Fort Lauderdale to Miami on the AAF tracks. Having ridden Tri-Rail from the FTL airport to DT Miami, it's painfully slow (and it was an empty train when I was on it). The transfer to metrorail takes a while as headways aren't ideal, and then there are all the metrorail stops along the way, as well.
I still think Tri-Rail on AAF tracks will see higher ridership. It connects the downtowns and goes through high population density! There's no reason for it not to see higher ridership. Similarly, Caltrain is attempting to link to Downtown San Francisco, and thus more effectively connect with BART and Muni Metro (as well as the regional bus agencies). It's always better when the downtown areas are a stop/endpoint (as with the current systems in NYC, Chicago, Boston, LA, and Philly).
Also, and part of the reason I think commuter rail would be a waste in Jax, most of these systems are relatively pointless. Being a "top 10" commuter rail system in the US is like saying you went to one of the 10 best colleges in Utah. It's rather meaningless when your overall competition is the Nashville Star, Austin Capital Metrorail, New Mexico Rail Runner Express, etc etc
The only legitimate/complete systems are New York's, Chicago's, Philly's, and Boston's.
sorry simms but you're changing your story. You originally stated that AAF would effectively replace TriRail. Lakelander and I showed that is not the case.
You forget that there is this new little thing called the Miami Intermodal Center, making TriRail to Miami's airport a pretty attractive service. And yes, MetroRail goes there now too.
http://www.micdot.com/
Quote from: finehoe on November 20, 2014, 12:59:12 PM
Quote...the state of Florida provided land grants and financial assistance to railroad builders...
Gregg M. Turner. A Journey into Florida Railroad History. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008, ISBN 978-0-8130-3233-7.
Thank goodness there was no government interference in the economy or socialism in the 19th century.
Contrary to the short version of the story, IE: railroads got free land, the truth is the land grants were credit extended to allow the railroads to leverage their value to finance and build lines into unpopulated territories. As a result of all of that 'free' land the railroads were required to carry the US Mail, government freight, military, in short, ANY government movement free of charge. This was capitalism of the first order, in 1940 the US Supreme Court of Claims, estimated that the railroads had repaid the 'land grants' as much as 900 times.
Here's a page from the Congressional inquiry:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15649997848_48589b5c4b_z.jpg)
Gregg simply followed the school textbooks and stopped short of telling the whole story. Many of the grants in Florida were outright revoked after the track had been laid under a Tallahassee order stating the state grants were illegal.
I cannot in good conscience fault you for this belief or even some research as the railroads have been catching hell for this for over 100 years. The trouble is, even with all of their capitalist power, they were unable to get the message out.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 20, 2014, 01:47:28 PM
sorry simms but you're changing your story. You originally stated that AAF would effectively replace TriRail. Lakelander and I showed that is not the case.
You forget that there is this new little thing called the Miami Intermodal Center, making TriRail to Miami's airport a pretty attractive service. And yes, MetroRail goes there now too.
http://www.micdot.com/
Sims, this is like saying the Bayshore will replace all traffic on highway 101... Not going to happen. Many suburbanites live west of the CSX tracks, in fact whole cities are west of the tracks (Coral Springs, etc.). Meanwhile the FEC is the older line having arrived in the 1890's rather then the 1920's, and is more of a city center to city center type railroad. The traffic mix will be different, but all in all, the AAF-Amtrak customer is not a Joe Lunch Bucket, rushing to get to work.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 20, 2014, 01:47:28 PM
sorry simms but you're changing your story. You originally stated that AAF would effectively replace TriRail. Lakelander and I showed that is not the case.
You forget that there is this new little thing called the Miami Intermodal Center, making TriRail to Miami's airport a pretty attractive service. And yes, MetroRail goes there now too.
http://www.micdot.com/
No, I didn't realize Tri-Rail was going to operate on AAF's tracks, but clearly since they are, they see a reason to, and it still stands that effectively it could "replace" the other Tri-Rail (which is purely figurative...with the investment in Tri-Rail, obviously they aren't deconstructing it and it does serve a purpose). AAF's Miami station will be very close to Metrorail, as well (where both lines converge offering better headways). Not inconceivable that people can use Tri-Rail on AAF's tracks to also reach Metrorail, and thus the Intermodal terminal.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2014, 01:50:11 PM
This was capitalism of the first order, in 1940 the US Supreme Court of Claims, estimated that the railroads had repaid the 'land grants' as much as 900 times.
And all citizens/businesses had an equal chance at obtaining this government assistance, right?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2014, 01:50:11 PM
Quote from: finehoe on November 20, 2014, 12:59:12 PM
Quote...the state of Florida provided land grants and financial assistance to railroad builders...
Gregg M. Turner. A Journey into Florida Railroad History. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008, ISBN 978-0-8130-3233-7.
Thank goodness there was no government interference in the economy or socialism in the 19th century.
Contrary to the short version of the story, IE: railroads got free land, the truth is the land grants were credit extended to allow the railroads to leverage their value to finance and build lines into unpopulated territories. As a result of all of that 'free' land the railroads were required to carry the US Mail, government freight, military, in short, ANY government movement free of charge. This was capitalism of the first order, in 1940 the US Supreme Court of Claims, estimated that the railroads had repaid the 'land grants' as much as 900 times.
Here's a page from the Congressional inquiry:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15649997848_48589b5c4b_z.jpg)
Gregg simply followed the school textbooks and stopped short of telling the whole story. Many of the grants in Florida were outright revoked after the track had been laid under a Tallahassee order stating the state grants were illegal.
I cannot in good conscience fault you for this belief or even some research as the railroads have been catching hell for this for over 100 years. The trouble is, even with all of their capitalist power, they were unable to get the message out.
Finehoe did not characterize the land grants as gifts but as government interference. You seem to have proved that positive point.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5614/15650298148_f7faae0b9e_z.jpg)
Oklahoma Territory 1889 Land Run
Yes, they did, note the famous Oklahoma Land Runs... FREE LAND! The Homestead Act was good in nearly every state and it still exists in remote areas, especially Alaska. The lineal grants such as the railroads got were also extended to roads (which were virtually all private decent ones in the 19Th Century and known as Pikes) Otto Perry was the most famous road builder of the Rockies, constructing toll roads throughout the mountains for example. The canals, Erie, Ohio etc. were all built with the same deal. In fact the order granting this to the railroads was basically a carbon copy of the previous modes.
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 20, 2014, 02:27:47 PM
Finehoe did not characterize the land grants as gifts but as government interference. You seem to have proved that positive point.
No would I consider it interference if you went down to the surplus yard south of NAS JAX and bought a truck for $100 bucks. Of course you could probably get a deal on 200 surplus trucks with no cash involved, just carry the mail in those big trailers for free for 50 to 100 years. That's neither interference or a free gift, its simply a decent business deal agreed on by both parties.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2014, 02:40:16 PM
That's neither interference or a free gift, its simply a decent business deal agreed on by both parties.
Shorter Ock: If it's something I like, gummit interference in the "free" market is a-ok, but if it's something I don't like it's Socialism.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2014, 02:36:21 PM
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5614/15650298148_f7faae0b9e_z.jpg)
Oklahoma Territory 1889 Land Run
BTW, Did y'all know that 'The Sooners' were cheaters that snuck into the federal lands on penalty of being shot on sight, and established claims and houses illegally? On surprised member of a land run family found a creek with a cabin and crops 3 feet tall along the creek bottoms. WTF? The cabin owner told him; Got here this morning, richest damn land I ever saw!'
Just like a bunch of 'SOONERS' to cheat! (Okay, so I couldn't resist that one!) GO POKES! GO POKES! OSU!
Sorry for the delay, had to pick up Lil' Robert.
No Finehoe, if it was Socialism the government would have built, owned and operated (or at least tried to) all of the railroads, canals and pikes. The farms would have been private but micro managed 'for the greater good,' by Uncle Sam. If Communist the goverment would own everything including thought.
All Aboard Florida would be a great fit if:
The City would get off of the Prime Osborn immediately and move whatever convention activity, trade shows etc... to the Arena until a proper convention center can be built.
Form a Public/Private partnership with AAF/JTA/COJ/INTERCITY MOTOR COACH operators as a new 'Jacksonville Terminal Company.'
Follow Milwaukee or Denver's example in the creation of a compact, single stop, single station.
Allow the new Terminal Company to launch on a 'new downtown' of mixed use with street level retail, restaurants and apartments/condo's/office towers. Become the catalyst for action.
Continue to focus JTA'S energies on expansion of fixed rail (monorail or elevated streetcar) across downtown per Husein Cumber's comments. Focus on getting over the FEC in San Marco, getting into Brooklyn @ Forrest and reaching the stadium. If a streetcar conversion took place, these could be built as grade level streetcar from Brooklyn South, FEC south into San Marco/San Jose as well as north of State Street into Springfield. BRT at a more serious level should take place both north and east of downtown, east of San Marco and Blanding (as a freeway flyer between Kent Campus and Downtown on Roosevelt-Connector/I-10/I-95.
If for whatever reason the City simply must keep the clumsy Prime as a Convention Center, then build a multi level garage on the property west of the old burned out depot, connect this with a continuing second level concourse to the rail platforms, and a Central Station at the Skyway location... All on the second or Skyway level. Escalators and elevators take passengers below the current Skyway station to JTA, and west of the station for Intercity Motor Coaches.
Create/RFP for a mid rise hotel serving the station and convention center.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2014, 09:06:37 PM
All Aboard Florida would be a great fit if:
The City would get off of the Prime Osborn immediately and move whatever convention activity, trade shows etc... to the Arena until a proper convention center can be built.
I think we have at least 3+ years before All Aboard Florida could be here anyway...so no need to move stuff to the arena (which, btw, doesn't have the floor space for trade shows)....we just need to get moving on building at least a temporary exhibition space adjacent to the Hyatt
While we try and figure things out, it appears that AAF plans to build the tallest tower in the US outside of Chicago and NYC at their MiamiCentral station:
QuoteMiamiCentral Supertower Could Become One Of The Tallest In The U.S.
All Aboard Florida has been calling one of the planned towers at MiamiCentral a 'supertower,' and it could could become one of the tallest buildings in the country.
According to a recent filing with the FAA, All Aboard Florida wants to build the tower as high as 1,120 feet above ground (or 1,131 above sea level). That would make it taller than any building that exists or is under construction in the U.S., outside of New York and Chicago.
It also won't be the only tall tower at MiamiCentral. At least one other high rise at the site is proposed to rise to 840 feet above ground.
Site work is already underway at MiamiCentral and the first phase will begin full construction soon.
Full article: http://www.thenextmiami.com/index.php/miamicentral-supertower-become-one-tallest-u-s/
A tall building will be useful to get above the rising sea level.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 21, 2014, 10:24:25 AM
A tall building will be useful to get above the rising sea level.
I'd go for 'cheap,' and issue canoes since the scientist that first postulated the 'Global Warming' theory has retracted his study and announced; 'I was wrong!'
However, a building over Bay St. at Skyway Station Level would free up the area to the west of the station for intercity buses, and make for a dual service parking garage at the old Railway Post Office lot.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 21, 2014, 12:14:47 PM
...the scientist that first postulated the 'Global Warming' theory has retracted his study and announced; 'I was wrong!'
Who might that be, Dr. Koch?
For those who say AAF is a money sink, this is proof that the real estate is the true profit center.
Renderings of AAF's proposed Orlando airport station courtesy of Prahaboheme at http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6816811&postcount=506
(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah315/briandavise/Intermodalstation_zps2f13c603.png)
(http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah315/briandavise/Intermodalstation2_zps5e623cf4.png)
Ground clearing underway at the MiamiCentral station courtesy of bobdreamz at http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6814446&postcount=503
(http://i.imgur.com/i1AdtGM.jpg)
In reading the Next Miami article, I have to wonder how Miami can support that much new construction. 5+ buildings over 1,000 feet is millions of square feet. There is no way all of this new space will be occupied.
Foreign buyers:
(http://mt1.miamitoday.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/p18-brickell-heights-4c.jpg)
QuoteFor downtown and the surrounding areas, in coming years residents can expect greater infill. But interest isn't the only factor that infill depends on.
"The infill projects will happen more rapidly once the transportation options get further developed in Miami as well," Ms. Salk said.
The development authority's study offers a snapshot of development in the moment. Where Brickell and Edgewater are growing fastest, areas like Midtown are in the earlier stages of life. Long-term growth is expected in the Central Business District and Arts and Entertainment areas, the study says.
Unsurprisingly, domestic buyers aren't the ones snapping up residential units in greater downtown. The study reported that 90% of buyers of new residential units are from abroad. In a city like Miami, that's par for the course.
"That's been consistent in Miami forever. Miami is a city that has been built by immigrants," Ms. Cervera Lamadrid said.
"Out-of-country investors have an edge on how to make some money in real estate in Miami," Ms. Salk said. As financing becomes more readily available, however, greater downtown could see more domestic buyers.
full article: http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2014/07/30/fastest-housing-growth-brickell-edgewater/
Hmm, massive, expensive real estate speculation. What could possibly go wrong?
I'm curious how the timeline ends up fitting together concerning
the completion of the [eventually] needed (?) Full interchange at Atlantic to see how it will do for Hendricks what the Forest St. Interchange has done for SR211 in Brooklyn,
the rebirth of the not-yet-built community across from the relocated now vacant Volvo dealership [Jackson Square FEC stop at Alexandria park?], the East San Marco Publix, "Healthy"Town, Kings Ave reinvigoration - which have the power to help heal the issues felt by River Oaks residents East to Douglas Anderson area/Empire Point, St.Nick,
Sorry for the tangent, but is it likely the Southbank Riverwalk will ever contiguously reach Nemours from Healthy Town?
(rail just forces me to think growth)
Preposterous to imagine anything like a St.Louis arch over the St.Johns connecting the Ship Yards to Healthy Town, rail to the Zoo?
Question:
General consensus,
will it take all of that happening,
the Parador garage having retail,
the Landing being redeveloped,
a new convention center built,
the Trio being complete,
AND A HOTEL in Brooklyn
before a streetcar line + tiny & simple skyway extension reach anywhere near Blue Cross, Black Knight Financial et al, Annie Lytle old public school no. 4, the Gorrie dog park, 'artists promenade' spanning RAM to Riverside Park AND SPRINGFIELD?
Will Beacon Riverside, AND a possible future northbank riverwalk extension South from RAM to Post St. at the Garden Club, Woman's Club end of the Cummer campus have to be complete BEFORE JAX gets a streetcar line for our hospitals?
Connecting UF, BAPTIST, St.Vincents areas,
an S Line streetcar with extensions East and West reaching the stadium, the old Ford plant and the Farmers Market, all seem to make too much sense to happen as quickly as it seems it could.
Springfield, Five Points, DT & the Skyway need STREETCAR, now.
JACKSONVILLE NEEDS Springfield, Five Points, Down Town, the skyway, and yes even BRT to have STREETCAR.
Thanks for the book Ock & team!
You guys make me think.
(preposterous to build something like a St.Louis arch over the St.Johns between Shipyards & Healthy Town?)
Stay well!
On the brighter side, the citizens who prevailed upon the FDOT and others to successfully advocate for pedestrian facilities in the Fuller Warren widening, and bike facilities along Atlantic below the overland bridge once finished: be proud of yourselves for moving something so basically essential to the forefront!
cheering you all on!
Be proud!
More rail!
I'm such a nerd for all of this, for instance I'm thrilled that the Arlington Expressway conversion to more normal Boulevard all at the same grade is being explored.
If this new facility is designed to acconodate rail to Regency, streetcar loops through UNF & JU,
even before the Mathews replacement is drawn on its last napkin, and Lonestar connects Regency to JU area, so much will change for.the better so long as pedestrians are the focus.
A section view of AAF's Miami station.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7481/16025289125_809ce03b6c.jpg)
http://www.miamitodaynews.com/2014/12/10/aboard-florida-revises-station-plans/
Updated rendering of Miami's station:
(http://i.imgur.com/6ltFiC9.jpg)
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=198371&page=27
For people wondering about the size of potential DOT loans to AAF, here is one with a similar amount.
Per Trains:
Sound Transit receives $1.3 billion USDOT loan
(http://trn.trains.com/~/media/images/railroad-news/news-wire/stock2/sounder-jason-berg.jpg?h=400&la=en&mw=600&w=600)
SEATTLE – Sound Transit has executed a $1.3 billion federal loan under the Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act. This represents the largest single such loan to a transit agency in the country and the second largest such loan overall, and at the lowest rate – 2.38 percent – in the 25-year history of the program.
The low-interest loan, which offers more favorable terms than traditional bonds, will increase Sound Transit's financial capacity by an estimated $200-300 million. Over the coming years the capacity will enable the Sound Transit board of directors to potentially restore some voter-approved "Sound Transit 2" projects that were suspended as a result of the recession and will help reduce risks of scope reductions or delays.
"This is great news for commuters, the local economy, and Washington state taxpayers," says U.S. Senator Patty Murray. "I was proud to support this funding for Sound Transit as they continue building a world class transit system that will help our economy continue to grow and create jobs here in Washington state."
"As ridership on our trains and buses grows, more investments in our transportation infrastructure are needed to meet the demand for transit services," says Sound Transit Chairman and King County Executive Dow Constantine. "This innovative financing allows local tax dollars to go farther in building the regional system. We are grateful to Senator Murray and Secretary Foxx for their outstanding leadership and support."
Some of the projects suspended during the recession that the Board could consider moving forward include:
Light rail between Kent/Des Moines and South 272nd Street in Federal Way
Preliminary light rail engineering and right-of-way acquisition from South 272nd Street in Federal Way to the Tacoma Dome
Improvements for accessing Kent Station
Improvements for accessing Auburn Station
Sounder platform extensions
Preliminary light rail engineering between Redmond's Overlake and downtown areas
A permanent multi-modal station at Edmonds
Sound Transit applied for the U.S. Department of Transportation loan after the recession wiped out $4.5 billion in projected Sound Transit 2 initiative revenues. The reduced revenues required the agency to realign the program, which included suspending some of its capital projects and transit services and reducing costs. The loan allows the agency to borrow money at a lower cost than assumed in the current financial plan for the agency — 2.38 percent instead of 5.75 percent.