Jacksonville's Ten Major Missed Opportunities
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3526740079_VM5H8FV-M.jpg)
Parts of Jacksonville would look completely different if the opposite decisions were made on these ten missed opportunities.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-jacksonvilles-ten-major-missed-opportunities
Something that really bugs me are the last two. I mean, really, Jacksonville? The number of kids who leave every fall for Florida State University & University of Florida, who work for Publix end up transferring to stores literally within walking distance of their universities. Club Pub, as it's known, the Publix next to FSU, stays open until Midnight. One can only imagine if Publix or Fresh Market would be literally right next door to a UNF or FSL, how many college kids would not only be working there, but using it on a daily basis for it's Deli and to pick up a few things. Multiply that by thousands a day? Cha-CHING.
Also, the Metropolitan Park System quite literally just blew my mind. At first, I wasn't sure if that was water or what, until I started reading. The first thought that comes to mind is the possible walking/bike trail that could've existed there. Instead, we have the S-Line Trail, which just isn't safe for 1 person to travel through on Bike or Foot. Biking for one, you take your chances with all the broken glass scattered throughout the entire trail. Baldwin is just so damn far, to have to load your bike up just to go biking takes the fun out of it.
There was a discussion on an earlier thread that called into question the apocryphal Disney-locating-in-Jacksonville story.
Quote from: danno on July 24, 2010, 07:31:45 AM
My Mother, God rest her soul, was the receptionist for Ed Ball up until 1964. That story had been going around fro a long time, she always said that she never ever heard of Mr Disney paying a visit.
I too question the Disney story. Wasn't he trying to covertly buy land ? Why would he openly ask Ed Ball about land? He set up dummy holdings to buy up land in Central Florida as he knew that once his name was attached, the land prices would double and triple in price.
The information I could find centered around buying St. Joe land and financing with Ball's Jax-based bank. I took that as North Florida and not necessarily City of Jax. Disney eventually ended up dealing with Orlando-based Sun Bank.
great article Ennis!
Definitely a great article, but frustrating to read. Wanted to share a recent article regarding UCF's plan to expand significantly in downtown Orlando.
http://today.ucf.edu/game-changer-ucf-pursue-expansion-downtown-orlando/ (http://today.ucf.edu/game-changer-ucf-pursue-expansion-downtown-orlando/)
When we launched Metro Jacksonville, I used to get frustrated. Now I don't. When you think about it, every place has a list of missed opportunities and opportunities that they've taken advantage of, over the course of their existence. Nevertheless, knowing what we know now about how the country has developed over the last century, one can only imagine the ultimate impact on the city's development pattern if a few decisions went in the opposite direction.
QuoteWhen you think about it, every place has a list of missed opportunities and opportunities that they've taken advantage of, over the course of their existence.
Just think, if the Earth would have allowed Jacksonville to be located where Virginia is located, we could have become jamestown? Or if the Spaniards would have had a better compass, we could have had the rich history that St. Augustine enjoys. Yeah, they are are unreal, but so is looking in the past. We're fortunate for all that we have, what we have become and the fact we are not Detroit. Look at how fast they changed? Motor city is now a bankrupt city.
Be thankful as we get closer to Thanksgiving for what you have, and build on what you have!
It's really disappointing seeing that "Disney in Jax" story in an article. I've discussed (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,15275.msg283348.html#msg283348) this (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,15275.msg283363.html#msg283363) story (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,15275.msg283432.html#msg283432) various (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,21414.msg374567.html#msg374567) times (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,21414.msg374605.html#msg374605) in the forums, and there's no evidence for it.
The closest there is is a *rumor*, reported years after the fact, that Disney had approached Ed Ball about land in the Panhandle. There's not even much of a rumor about Disney and Jacksonville outside of this site.
Shenanigans!
#8's already pretty weak. The Navy wanted the property back after they'd already abandoned us and let us invest $100 million in the site. Handing it over without recovering our investment (and without any assurance they wouldn't just abandon us again) would have been another epic boondoggle.
Lets look back and wallow in our sorrows, instead of looking forward to make Jax a better place. I personally think that the first two wouldn't have ever happened (Jacksonville replacing Hollywood, and Disney World being here). The 70's 80's downtown follies (tearing down buildings etc) is not unique to Jax.
^Maybe, maybe not. ;) But it can't be judged on being weak or strong, totally based on the reader's opinion on if they like or don't like the individual opportunity mentioned.
In the Navy/Cecil situation, one could very well argue that recouping the $100 million infrastructure investment would have come back by having an additional 12k people employed in the area, spending their cash locally and the resulting spin-off businesses....all estimated at the time to be $1.2 billion in annual economic impact.
So $100 million in subsidies isn't crazy in today's world. Just look at what Nevada is giving Tesla. Over $1 billion in incentives for their new Nevada battery plant that will employ 6,500. In any event, regardless of if one wanted the Navy to return or not, it's hard to argue that the Westside would not look vastly different today if the opposite decision had been made in 2006. At the end of the day, that's what the article is about.
As for the Disney story in the article, no need to be disappointed. Jacksonville was not mentioned as the specific destination. Only this side of the state. Growing up in Central Florida, I'll say that Disney's decision to build in Osceola/Orange County has had an economic impact on every MSA down there from the Bay Area to Daytona. Who knows what type of impact it would have had on North or South Florida?
Anyway, the rumors aren't just on MJ. A quick Google search shows various stories and opinions on the matter are present in a variety of sources and are all over the place. In reality, the debate will always continue because the individuals involved died decades ago.
Quote from: I-10east on October 27, 2014, 01:22:17 PM
Lets look back and wallow in our sorrows, instead of looking forward to make Jax a better place. I personally think that the first two wouldn't have ever happened (Jacksonville replacing Hollywood, and Disney World being here). The 70's 80's downtown follies (tearing down buildings etc) is not unique to Jax.
Why wallow? Instead learn a little about your local history and move on with your day!
Nevertheless, don't worry. We'll have a feel good Jax version for you as well! Perhaps, 10 Opportunities That Worked In Our Favor? :)
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2014, 01:27:54 PM
Nevertheless, don't worry. We'll have a feel good Jax version for you as well! Perhaps, 10 Opportunities That Worked In Our Favor? :)
Excellent. I was also going to suggest a future article on opportunities that Jax has taken advantage of and how those have helped create a more active and vibrant downtown.
I still have my doubts that those 30k jobs would have ever made their way to Cecil Field. Even if the citizens of Jacksonville had not overwhelmingly voted against the proposal. Virginia had John Warner in their corner. He was head of the Senate Armed Services Committee at the time. And former Secretary of the Navy.
If I remember correctly. The person pushing the hardest to get the jet base back to Cecil Field was a business man from Ponte Vedra, who was not even able to vote on the measure.
^I believe that was after COJ backed out. Initially, Mayor Peyton and Governor Bush publicly advocated for the Navy's return. That ceased when the Better Westside group started gaining traction, creating a true community debate on if Jax really wanted to return Cecil or not.
The Navy's prospective return to Cecil was one of those things that sounds good on the surface, but which further inspection reveals to be a bum deal, like voting for certain Mayors who will remain nameless. We'd have kissed hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars goodbye for something that had already abandoned us once, that the Virginia pork connoisseurs would not easily part with, that may well have abandoned us again when the wind changed.
On Disney, unless I misread, the article originally said "Northeast Florida", ie, our part of Florida. However, all versions I've seen or heard (outside of Metro Jacksonville) indicate the land Disney was inquiring about was in the Panhandle, where St. Joe had most of their land. There's some indication (http://books.google.com/books?id=rEIw_sNZh8YC&pg=PA71&dq=%22Wakulla+Springs%22+Disney&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gvJfU9L-JeHgsATg74LgCw&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Wakulla%20Springs%22%20Disney&f=false) that Disney did look at Wakullah Springs, which was owned by St. Joe and was a personal favorite of Ed Ball's, in 1959. This seems to be the origin of the "carnival people" story, whether it's true or not. Land in the Panhandle wouldn't have done much for Jax (not any more than the Central Florida site has done). I've read and heard quite a number of versions, but this site is the only place I've ever heard associating it with land in "Northeast Florida".
Quote from: deathstar on October 27, 2014, 03:32:37 AM
Baldwin is just so damn far, to have to load your bike up just to go biking takes the fun out of it.
Not sure where you're coming from, but from Riverside area it's only about 8 miles. What's another 16 miles if you're planning on 50? Just don't ride the entire thing.
I have this 'discussion' about 3-4 times a month when I'm asked where I went, lol.
"Why didn't you tell me that's where you were going, we could have loaded up both bikes." [facepalm]
Quote from: BD51 on October 27, 2014, 01:44:48 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2014, 01:27:54 PM
Nevertheless, don't worry. We'll have a feel good Jax version for you as well! Perhaps, 10 Opportunities That Worked In Our Favor? :)
Excellent. I was also going to suggest a future article on opportunities that Jax has taken advantage of and how those have helped create a more active and vibrant downtown.
Amen! Would love to see that list. To be honest many of the missed opportunities of Jax mirrors that of countless cities that valued their suburbs over their urban core, and many of those mistakes now provide the teaching lessons we use to promote sounds urban development. But it's those big time "gets" of cities that gets everyone talking.
A good example would be the importance and impact of Jacksonville landing the southern headquarters of Prudential Insurance over Savannah and Charleston back in the 50's.
All this means is that you have 20-20 hindsight. Who doesn't? Stop trying to make Jacksonville something it isn't. If all those things did come to pass, you would whining about the lack of affordable housing, etc. Be happy and stop trying to compare Jacksonville with every city in America. If you don't like Jax, there are plenty of moving vans available. Cheer up. The glass is half full, not half empty!
I think the courthouse disaster should be in a category all to its own. It's not necessarily a missed opportunity, but the epitome of government's efficiency in wasting other people's money.
Chalk one up to Quail Hunting,a penchant for Natural Lands. Screw You Bambi!!! Yea!!!
Regards Disney, one focus included a sizeable 'single owner' tract southwesterly of Orange Park. Sanlebrydo Lumber Company.Gordon Sandridge ("San") ,Clay Booster. Et Al
Now the site of the 20,000 acre + site of Jennings State Forest.
Thanks in part ( or horrors for the Growth Gang...) to then expanding Cecil Field Military Operations, related aircraft pattern 'restrictive foot print'.....and a quail hunter descendent of Governor Jennings.......and also,Sandy Sandridge.
Jennings State Forest was a key element of Public Conservation Land Acquisition of the 90's era,and continues to accommodate "Mitigation" procedures that allow regional growth. Hey,how bad can that be....? better than Tourist Dollar some would say!!
The development of the Jennings State Forest would have syphoned off even more "Jacksonville" development draw.
(Gosh...future envisioned nearby " Outer Outer Beltway" could have been a real driver,even if decades "too late".)
(I got my picture on the front cover of Folio over this.... 8) )
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2014, 04:19:00 PM
? seriously missing the point.
The past exists, and we can learn from it.
And if you don't like the fact that there is a lot of analysis going on here, then there are plenty of news sites with intelligent, informed local conversation available. (or.....something like that)
I never understand this idea that metrojacksonville is actually a marketing arm for failed city policies of the past.
We aren't, we look at what is possible and we look at the record of things that have actually happened.
The number of successful & failed ideas from the past, that came to fruition, of which I have learned all about here on MJ, have opened my eyes up to where Jacksonville has been, where it's at, and where it's going. I enjoy reading about other cities I may never visit in my lifetime, how similar they are or how different we are from them. See what's working there and see how it could apply to a vision for our very own Jacksonville. I mean, where else could I have learned about the Terminal Train Station & the down and dirty exploring Ock did to snap photos of what exists now, only to find what it looked like before in a photography collection on Flickr doing a random search for something else? That's just 1 example of hundreds
QuoteWe aren't, we look at what is possible and we look at the record of things that have actually happened.
I love the saying, IF....."Ifs and Buts were Candy and Nuts, everyday would be Christmas". It ranks right up there with the idea of "Hope being a strategy".
Let's move on and deal with the issues of where we are today. We can pontificate on New Years Eve as we set goals for 2015 and discuss what we did or did not do in 2014.
I think whiffing on Florida Coastal School of Law may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. That place has some serious problems:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/08/the-law-school-scam/375069/
I think it was actually Busch Gardens that wanted to move here. They wanted to buy the zoo and expand. That was the 70s,I think.
Quote from: Adam12 on October 28, 2014, 06:54:26 PM
I think whiffing on Florida Coastal School of Law may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. That place has some serious problems:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/08/the-law-school-scam/375069/
WOW! Helps to understand the FSCJ midnight email by the Pres. asking for an EXTRA, EXTRA, $500,000 and then voted on by a Board that same day.
Doesn't really matter what the specifics of the past are. Look at the specifics of TODAY! We continue to miss opportunities for positive growth as we are handcuffed by infighting, politics, racial divide, crime, the need to build monuments to our organizations or leaders of the day - including the Chamber, the Courthouse and the library - and so many other shortsighted behaviors. Downtown Development for recreation and enterprise is moving in the wrong direction (except for big boards and swimming pools in our under-performing sports stadium or tax breaks and subsidies for already failed enterprises and venues such as The Landing) and sprawl in all directions has fragmented both vision and dollars to total ineffectiveness. While the Better Jacksonville Plan had some large strings attached and many balked at the expense and funding means for the plan, at least it was A PLAN! When Jacksonville defines what it wants to be when it grows up, what it CAN be with leadership and vision, it will be a start. I suspect we will be long gone by then. I WILL say, however, that we have a pretty good streets, roads and bridges plan and execution for major thoroughfares, with logical pathways about town. But now we are cutting bus service by frequency and routes, which is further regression as it forces more individual vehicles onto the roadways. Two steps forward, five steps back. We need some leadership and vision in public office, by people who don't demand a paycheck or a contract in return for their service... The Bold New City of the South just isn't...
QuoteLets look back and wallow in our sorrows, instead of looking forward to make Jax a better place. I personally think that the first two wouldn't have ever happened (Jacksonville replacing Hollywood, and Disney World being here). The 70's 80's downtown follies (tearing down buildings etc) is not unique to Jax.
I agree that, at best, Disney World in JAX was a brief passing thought over at the House of Mouse. I believe the closest runner-ups were either Metro Atlanta (rejected for Southern race issues and land costs,) and Palm Beach County (favored for beach access; rejected for land costs.)
As for the motion picture industry locating in JAX, that's 100% true and 100% a missed opportunity of the city and region. 100% supported by verifiable historical fact. At the beginning of the industry, JAX would have been massively preferable to LA, as it was closer to NYC via the railroad (and private cars, for that matter,) and didn't require massive feats of water/river diversion to actually create paradise: it was already here. Hands down, bar none, the rejection of the movie industry entirely changed the fate of the city and the region.
QuoteTo be honest many of the missed opportunities of Jax mirrors that of countless cities that valued their suburbs over their urban core, and many of those mistakes now provide the teaching lessons we use to promote sounds urban development.
That misses the point a bit. Yes, collectively, American cities abandoned their cores and suburbanized and exurbanized. Jacksonville, however, has missed the urban core gentrification trend, almost in its entirety, as reported by numerous sources noting that continued loss of population, vitality and value. I'm not one to posit as to why, but it's important to note that the other three major MSA regions of Florida have revitalized their urban cores, and that in South Florida's case at least, that "Eastward Ho" revitalization is driving the energy of the region, the recovery from the recession and the resurgence in growth. The reawakened cores nationwide are in cities and metro regions, whether or not they are "car cities," that are moving forward. Heck, even HOUSTON woke up their downtown. HOUSTON.
QuoteIf you don't like Jax, there are plenty of moving vans available.
I believe that what the owners of the site don't like is stagnation and regression of the Jacksonville region and the urban core, yes?
...and be careful what you wish for. The Florida University Brain Drain to other states is a key, long-term issue for the vitality of the state.
For the same reason Jacksonville doesn't have huge snowbird population,WDW was going to be in Central or South Florida. It gets just a little to cold in Jax. My mom's good friend retired from NJ and loved Jacksonville when she visited. She wanted the beach nearby and liked having the city close. She chose Ft Myers area for year round beach weather.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on October 29, 2014, 12:17:36 PM
QuoteLets look back and wallow in our sorrows, instead of looking forward to make Jax a better place. I personally think that the first two wouldn't have ever happened (Jacksonville replacing Hollywood, and Disney World being here). The 70's 80's downtown follies (tearing down buildings etc) is not unique to Jax.
I agree that, at best, Disney World in JAX was a brief passing thought over at the House of Mouse. I believe the closest runner-ups were either Metro Atlanta (rejected for Southern race issues and land costs,) and Palm Beach County (favored for beach access; rejected for land costs.)
I doubt Disney ever seriously considered Atlanta. From at least 1959, if they were putting the park in the South it was going to be in Florida. It's hard to imagine Atlanta being considered after the issues with "Song of the South" in 1946.
It seems likely Disney did give Northeast Florida a look when his group was exploring Florida sites. They looked all over the state between about 1959 and 1963, and as I said above, there's some indication they looked at land in the Panhandle. This is what the Ed Ball "carnival people" legend was about.
It is known that Disney seriously considered Palm Beach County in 1959, but rejected it as it would be difficult to get the amount of land he wanted, it was too close to a populous city, and there would be competition with the beach for tourists. As all those things are also true of Jacksonville, it's exceedingly unlikely any possible plans for a Jax site got past the exploratory stage. He continued looking around Florida and elsewhere, including in St. Louis and Niagara Falls. By 1963, Disney had settled on one of four sites in Florida, all in Central Florida. He eventually selected the Reedy Creek site (the current location) and the rest is history.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on October 29, 2014, 12:17:36 PM
As for the motion picture industry locating in JAX, that's 100% true and 100% a missed opportunity of the city and region. 100% supported by verifiable historical fact. At the beginning of the industry, JAX would have been massively preferable to LA, as it was closer to NYC via the railroad (and private cars, for that matter,) and didn't require massive feats of water/river diversion to actually create paradise: it was already here. Hands down, bar none, the rejection of the movie industry entirely changed the fate of the city and the region.
Not quite. Jacksonville became the major location of
winter filming for studios based in New York and the Northeast. Hollywood allowed for year-round filming in one place, as well as cheaper land and a more pliant government than could be found in the previous system. When Hollywood proved to be feasible, the New York studios flocked there. Jacksonville's ambivalent relationship with the studios, combined with historical factors that bankrupted many of the studios already invested here, just put another nail in the coffin.
It's certainly possible, however, is that a more supportive response from locals and the government in 1917 could have kept some of the studios here, at least for a while. However, the people spoke in that year's mayoral election by choosing John W. Martin over ardent film supporter J.E.T. Bowden. Martin wasn't necessarily against the film industry, but he didn't strongly approve and didn't do anything to save the studio. He was the Alvin Brown of the era.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on October 29, 2014, 12:17:36 PM
QuoteTo be honest many of the missed opportunities of Jax mirrors that of countless cities that valued their suburbs over their urban core, and many of those mistakes now provide the teaching lessons we use to promote sounds urban development.
That misses the point a bit. Yes, collectively, American cities abandoned their cores and suburbanized and exurbanized. Jacksonville, however, has missed the urban core gentrification trend, almost in its entirety, as reported by numerous sources noting that continued loss of population, vitality and value. I'm not one to posit as to why, but it's important to note that the other three major MSA regions of Florida have revitalized their urban cores, and that in South Florida's case at least, that "Eastward Ho" revitalization is driving the energy of the region, the recovery from the recession and the resurgence in growth. The reawakened cores nationwide are in cities and metro regions, whether or not they are "car cities," that are moving forward. Heck, even HOUSTON woke up their downtown. HOUSTON.
Agree entirely. Everywhere struggled with this issue, but many have managed to bounce back to a degree, while we continue to struggle.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on October 29, 2014, 12:17:36 PM
QuoteIf you don't like Jax, there are plenty of moving vans available.
I believe that what the owners of the site don't like is stagnation and regression of the Jacksonville region and the urban core, yes?
...and be careful what you wish for. The Florida University Brain Drain to other states is a key, long-term issue for the vitality of the state.
There are many things in Jax that truly work, and many, many others that are fixable with a little vision and hard work. Not accepting the status quo does not equal hating the city.
Quote from: I like Jax on October 29, 2014, 02:27:54 PM
For the same reason Jacksonville doesn't have huge snowbird population,WDW was going to be in Central or South Florida. It gets just a little to cold in Jax. My mom's good friend retired from NJ and loved Jacksonville when she visited. She wanted the beach nearby and liked having the city close. She chose Ft Myers area for year round beach weather.
I think this is a major positive for us. Areas that get a ton of tourists and snowbirds tend to have their local economy and culture driven by it. Our economy is much more diverse than other parts of the state, and we have a chance to establish ourselves as a different type of Florida community.
Quote from: johncb on October 29, 2014, 02:16:06 AM
I think it was actually Busch Gardens that wanted to move here. They wanted to buy the zoo and expand. That was the 70s,I think.
Not quite.
Busch did express interest in developing a proto-Busch Gardens type park in the 1910s or 1920s in the Brooklyn or Riverside area...not a coaster-fest, but something akin to the original Busch Gardens in Tampa, with the emphasis on gardens. The city turned down this idea.
In the 1970s, I understand Busch was approached about acquiring the zoo but was not interested. This is referenced in the zoo's recently released 100th anniversary book.
As for Disney, the very detailed book "Married To The Mouse" indicates that in addition to all the sites Aaronius mentions, as well as the Ed Ball/Panhandle option, the DC area was considered for an east coast Disney World (in the 60s, that is - I'm not referring to the 90s attempt at "Disney's America" in northern Virginia). It makes no reference to the Jacksonville legend, which seems to be a myth.
QuoteI think this is a major positive for us. Areas that get a ton of tourists and snowbirds tend to have their local economy and culture driven by it. Our economy is much more diverse than other parts of the state, and we have a chance to establish ourselves as a different type of Florida community.
To be fair, that's kind of the paradigm for Tampa Bay and pretty much non-beach-coastal South Florida (You don't get to nearly 6 million people densely populated on the tourist economy alone. Or, to put this another way, there aren't any snowbirds in Coral Springs.) And it should be noted that with the exception of Orlando (or nationally, Vegas,) MOST major Florida MSAs (Tampa, SoFla,) are defined by the diversity of their economies. Furthermore, they diversified their economies SPECIFICALLY because Disney slurped up the middle class to premium vacation dollars and had no choice but to do so.
QuoteAgree entirely. Everywhere struggled with this issue [inner core redevelopment], but many have managed to bounce back to a degree, while we continue to struggle.
I'd argue that's not because there's not the potential to do so...it's a lack of collective political will and one suspects developer/business interests sitting on the land until it reaches X amount of value.
I'd also argue that at least some of this is the result of consolidation masking the problems of the core. Yes, Jacksonville is still growing, but that growth is in the suburbs...which are a part of the "city" of Jacksonville. (On a side note, it also makes city-to-city comparisons hard.)
QuoteAs for Disney, the very detailed book "Married To The Mouse" indicates that in addition to all the sites Aaronius mentions, as well as the Ed Ball/Panhandle option, the DC area was considered for an east coast Disney World (in the 60s, that is - I'm not referring to the 90s attempt at "Disney's America" in northern Virginia). It makes no reference to the Jacksonville legend, which seems to be a myth.
This is also detailed as background history for the book "The Disney War." They note that Atlanta
was in the running specifically because of their pro-business environment and because of their already quite connected airport. Orlando was ultimately chosen because of its highway confluence as well as the cheap, cheap land...and notably, they sacrificed a slice of coastal property for epochally MORE property.
...and don't get me wrong. Across the board, not only Florida but all of America basically rejects transit. Now, they may want the OPTION of transit and they may want the OPTION of living in a connected, town/village/city TOD or, traditional human, non-suburban construct. And quite a few places HAVE relaunched their downtowns or carved out "fake downtowns" in former malls in the 'burbs. But...they all drive there.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on October 29, 2014, 03:50:18 PM
QuoteI think this is a major positive for us. Areas that get a ton of tourists and snowbirds tend to have their local economy and culture driven by it. Our economy is much more diverse than other parts of the state, and we have a chance to establish ourselves as a different type of Florida community.
To be fair, that's kind of the paradigm for Tampa Bay and pretty much non-beach-coastal South Florida (You don't get to nearly 6 million people densely populated on the tourist economy alone. Or, to put this another way, there aren't any snowbirds in Coral Springs.) And it should be noted that with the exception of Orlando (or nationally, Vegas,) MOST major Florida MSAs (Tampa, SoFla,) are defined by the diversity of their economies. Furthermore, they diversified their economies SPECIFICALLY because Disney slurped up the middle class to premium vacation dollars and had no choice but to do so.
The Tampa area and South Florida, not to mention other parts of the state, are much more dependent on tourism and the retiree economy than we are up here. "Snowbird season" is not something that affects us. Things have been changing somewhat, as more snowbirds and permanent retirees are going to even cheaper pastures on the outskirts of the MSAs or beyond; today are moving to to the Southwest and Treasure Coast areas (or not coming to Florida at all).
Quote from: AaroniusLives on October 29, 2014, 03:50:18 PM
QuoteAgree entirely. Everywhere struggled with this issue [inner core redevelopment], but many have managed to bounce back to a degree, while we continue to struggle.
I'd argue that's not because there's not the potential to do so...it's a lack of collective political will and one suspects developer/business interests sitting on the land until it reaches X amount of value.
I'd also argue that at least some of this is the result of consolidation masking the problems of the core. Yes, Jacksonville is still growing, but that growth is in the suburbs...which are a part of the "city" of Jacksonville. (On a side note, it also makes city-to-city comparisons hard.)
I think you're spot on here.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on October 29, 2014, 03:50:18 PM
QuoteAs for Disney, the very detailed book "Married To The Mouse" indicates that in addition to all the sites Aaronius mentions, as well as the Ed Ball/Panhandle option, the DC area was considered for an east coast Disney World (in the 60s, that is - I'm not referring to the 90s attempt at "Disney's America" in northern Virginia). It makes no reference to the Jacksonville legend, which seems to be a myth.
This is also detailed as background history for the book "The Disney War." They note that Atlanta was in the running specifically because of their pro-business environment and because of their already quite connected airport. Orlando was ultimately chosen because of its highway confluence as well as the cheap, cheap land...and notably, they sacrificed a slice of coastal property for epochally MORE property.
I've read Disney War (and Married to the Mouse, a great book), and I don't remember anything about Atlanta, though of course Disney looked at a lot of places, with varying degrees of seriousness. I'd imagine Atlanta may have been one of those places that was explored and rejected early on. Disney was leaning to Florida pretty heavily from 1959, and was dead set on it by 1963. After that point, their other plans were basically a way to throw everyone off about Florida.
Consolidation was one of the best things that happened in Jacksonville. It was a time when lots of exciting things happened.. The downtown library, new JIA, Anheuser Busch brewery and there was lots of hope for the future of Jax. I would love some vision like that today. Jax consolidation gives an advantage
Included in this list should be Shipyards. 10 years ago I recall participating in the American Heritage Rivers meeting that was held here in Jacksonville and every morning when boarding the bus with the 14 River Navigators that represented their rivers to another Destination outside of Jacksonville and explain that what we are going by is the Billion dollar mile that is Shipyards and a presentation on Shipyards is part of your itenarary in an evening event.
After 3 days and the questions would keep coming. So they are going to build Shipyards before Super Bowl XXXIX? And the city is not saving part of the Old Fuller Warren Bridge for Public Access?
QuoteIncluded in this list should be Shipyards. 10 years ago I recall participating in the American Heritage Rivers meeting that was held here in Jacksonville and every morning when boarding the bus with the 14 River Navigators that represented their rivers to another Destination outside of Jacksonville and explain that what we are going by is the Billion dollar mile that is Shipyards and a presentation on Shipyards is part of your itenarary in an evening event.
Would you be referring to this?
http://www.coroflot.com/aaronmichaelgordon/Shipyards-This-Changes-Everything-PDF-File
No.
Its only a missed opportunity if Jacksonville would be a better place because of it. Some were, some weren't.
LaVilla - Definitely
Streetcars - Yes but that was as the article mentions, a national trend- Greyhound's Southeastern Lines was headquartered here in 1928 and played a big role in what was then considered a progressive move forward.
UNF/Coastal School- Yes but the land was given to them. there is still opportunity to locate classrooms if not satellite campuses Downtown.
Beltway Park- I had not heard of it, it would be cool, but at the same time we still have more parks than we know what to do with.
Disney?- No thanks, I would rather live in New Jersey than a lost, soulless town such as Orlando.
Oceana to Cecil relocation- definitely NOT a missed opportunity. For one it was just a bluff all along to address resident complaints about noise, it was never actually going to happen. Second, the city is much better off having private industry, operate, employ and pay taxes out of there. Sure, all of the residential growth is currently to the south right now. But the westside will be an industrial powerhouse in 20 years thanks to that Commerce Center.
Probably the largest missed opportunity would be placing all of the government buildings on the river but that goes right in there with how DT has been mismanaged. The good news is that train of thought has changed and change is in process as we speak.