Hemming Plaza vs NYC's Bryant Park: A Tale of Two Parks
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3619106751_5cNtN6S-M.jpg)
What Jacksonville’s Hemming Plaza Can Learn from the Historic Restoration of New York’s Bryant Park by Metro Jacksonville contributor Ken Bowen.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-hemming-plaza-vs-nycs-bryant-park-a-tale-of-two-parks
Great job, Ken.
Wow. Really thoughtfully written and thoroughly researched piece. Great job Ken.
I have concerns that the unshaded central lawn would be inhospitable in our sub-tropical sun most of the year.
Amazing post! I really hope that central lawn becomes a reality. What's the timeline on something like this actually happening? With the Sweet Pete's compound opening soon, and work on the Trio starting, how long before Hemming is ready to go along with those?
Damn you, Ken. I was planning about 5 minutes to skim through another MJ article and 30 minutes later.....
Great job.
This was greet. Thank you so much.
Come on, finehoe: "inhospitable in our sub-tropical sun most of the year" ??? It somehow became *the* central meeting spot with that same sun. I don't think that will be an issue.
Really outstanding job, Ken. I'm genuinely excited by the clear potential of Hemming Park. It sure would be nice, too, if the Confederate Statue could be joined by statues honoring the Union *and* those of the USCT so that we have a modern, respectful remembrance of the Civil War in our central square honoring all who fought.
very impressive....well done Ken!
I wish that I could say I'm wild about the final rendering. It look too unshaded (like finehoe said) and ultra-simplistic. Let me preface by saying obviously the current Hemming needs some kind of revitalization/makeover; IMO the current Hemming Plaza is like an 'old park with some charm' shaded but needs more grass, while the rendering screams "new plopped down bare park with no character outside of the impressive sign". I'm aware of the flexibility that Hemming could have, I'm just not feeling the transformation though. Just an opinion from a regular guy.
I hope this happens sooner than later. Flat out awesome!
Quote from: RattlerGator on October 17, 2014, 12:12:22 PM
It somehow became *the* central meeting spot with that same sun.
It "somehow" did this with tree cover:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3619106557_xLLRLrW-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3619105909_Nf67nCP-M.jpg)
Greenery-wise, I'm not sure if we ever could get that 'scaled down' version of Bryant Park, a park that's MUCH larger than Hemming Plaza. Notice the nice buffer of trees that surrounds Bryant Park, which is non-existent with the new renderings of Hemming. I get that everyone wants the old 'village green' feel with flexibility; I'm cool with that, but I have concerns with the lack of foliage in the renderings.
I guess you missed "Lyndon Johnson Speaks at Hemming Park" and all those people standing out in what appears to be the midday sun.
I'll never understand Floridians writing as if we're dealing with Great Britain.
The sun? The sun !?! Are you kidding !?!
All of those trees added over the years are part of the problem, you know.
Quote from: RattlerGator on October 17, 2014, 01:29:23 PM
All of those trees added over the years are part of the problem, you know.
I beg to differ.
(https://img1.etsystatic.com/035/0/6137993/il_570xN.584706181_scj9.jpg)
Memorial Park in Riverside is essentially a large, uncovered, lawn bordered by trees, but that does not seem to deter folks from enjoying it. I like the design.
All of these 'mixed use' parks that I've saw before are large (Memorial Park, Bryant Park etc) and still they have a decent amount of trees. Hemming Plaza is just 1.54 arce, far from a large flexible use park like Bryant. Show me the Hemming Plaza equivalent (near it's size, smaller than 2 acres) that's a small flexible park? I don't understand suddenly why trees are supposedly 'unwanted' at a city park, when most think that shade is synonymous with an urban park. Because everybody prefer to bake in the sweltering sun...
That rendering reminds me of a Hemming Plaza version of those Landing proposals, far from ideal IMO. It looks like a retro-futuristic soccer field, very out of place in the center of historic Jax. The more and more I look at the rendering, the more and more I don't like it.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the kind words!
Try not to get too wrapped up in the renderings. They are merely there to provide a bare-bones visualization of the best practices suggested in the article. Totally agree that Hemming needs to maintain some of that old southern park charm, and I'd hope that when it does come time for a redesign, we'd spare no expense in finding an architect that would do the project justice.
Supposedly HDR put together 60% plans for a similar redesign a couple of years ago, but I don't think they were ever made publicly available.
Disagree that the sun would be an issue. If over 60,000 locals are willing to pay $60 a pop to bake in an open concrete bowl in August to watch the Jags get beat by 40 points, I don't see why they'd be averse to hanging out in the park for an hour or two (or a lunch break) in the summer and enjoying free programming or recreation. This isn't Tunisia. October through May are beautiful in Jacksonville, and it's raining half the time during the summer months anyway.
I-10, several of the parks noted in the article are actually smaller than Hemming. Campus Martius Park in Detroit is only 1.2 acres, Post Office Square in Boston is 1.7 acres, etc. Yes, Bryant is dramatically bigger, but don't forget that a) the acreage for Bryant Park also includes the enormous New York Public Library, and b) Bryant is meant to serve a much larger population. Hemming Plaza isn't a miniscule space, and if you really wanted to get creative, there's no reason that you couldn't slightly expand it by removing the perimeter parking or closing the adjacent portions of Monroe and Duval to vehicular traffic.
Not advocating getting rid of trees entirely, but without flexibility, you are severely handicapping Hemming's ability to provide destination programming and activities, and you are also severely handicapping the park's ability to generate the revenue necessary to keep it staffed and programmed.
Quote from: KenFSU on October 17, 2014, 04:09:22 PM
Hemming Plaza isn't a miniscule space, and if you really wanted to get creative, there's no reason that you couldn't slightly expand it by removing the perimeter parking or closing the adjacent portions of Monroe and Duval to vehicular traffic.
^This is something I really hope the Hemming Park group pushes for an analysis of in any park redesigns. I don't know that closing Hogan would add much due to the Skyway station and lack of street interaction from the courthouse, but I do think closing portions of Laura (from Duval to Adams), Monroe, and Duval around the park would be huge and something worth exploring. Expanding the park to City Hall, MOCA, Library, and Snyder not only opens up valuable space, but would open up so many design possibilities. Think of all of the outdoor seating options at Café Nola, and along Monroe and Laura (between Monroe and Adams).
From what I can see on Google street view, there is only one spot in the areas listed above that needs access for deliveries (west of Dalton Building), but I'm sure there is a solution.
The beauty of the grid is that there are a million different ways to maneuver through it. Closing down a small portion of it, may take some getting used to, but would be FAR more beneficial to the pedestrian environment than it would erode the automotive one.
Quote from: I-10east on October 17, 2014, 03:01:41 PM
All of these 'mixed use' parks that I've saw before are large (Memorial Park, Bryant Park etc) and still they have a decent amount of trees. Hemming Plaza is just 1.54 arce, far from a large flexible use park like Bryant. Show me the Hemming Plaza equivalent (near it's size, smaller than 2 acres) that's a small flexible park?
If you ever visit Detroit, check out Campus Martius Park. It really is a great space.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3370410760_mSRp2Nj-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3370411283_bKWm7bf-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3370411821_jtcDPHf-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3370395488_BNbtv3c-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3370396082_2tztnGZ-M.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/mainst_park/site_plan.jpg)
Some random pictures of Hemming during the 1950s and 1960s.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4743-hemming-2.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4742-hemming-1.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4730-hemming-vpnixon.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1983631513_XTMv7vX-M.jpg)
Great stuff. So good that my imagination kept making me think it is a real proposal. I was getting so excited about the ice skating :/
Ahhh the Robert Myer. That was such a giant building it is a shame that is gone. It would have made a good condo/apartment building. The Seminole hotel was my favorite though.
Very impressive article. I hope we see some of this stuff come to fruition.
Awesome article!! I was forced to read the whole article lol. I really hope something like this really happens, that's exactly what we need DT. I would love to be able to ice skate during the holiday season.
Cool stuff. I actually thought it was a professional proposal as well.
I wonder how this plays out as Unity Plaza is hoping to create essentially the same thing, but in a less prime spot (potentially, not currently).
I am sure the homeless will enjoy their new 1 million dollar Hemming Park, this should give them a break from their $700,000 pocket park across the street from the library on Main Street.......downtown Jax will not change until the city takes serious steps to relocate the homeless population & services from its urban core........history repeating itself............over and over again....
San Diego suggests otherwise. It appears to have a much larger homeless problem in its downtown than we do in ours. It's just harder to focus on them because the downtown is vibrant. Nevertheless, it's not uncommon to step over people sleeping on the sidewalks of the Gaslamp District. Here's a few photographs. In each, if you look hard enough, you'll see examples of the problem some claim DT Jax must resolve before anything else successful can happen:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-n9rvCTV/0/XL/P1480583-XL.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-XdQ5wpM/0/XL/P1490115-XL.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-VcgFP4M/0/XL/P1490137-XL.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-nDdT47M/0/XL/P1480976-XL.jpg)
Best proposal I've seen so far. I really love the idea of adding things like MShack and Black Sheep to the park. Here's to this being read by FHP and having a serious impact on their ideas for the park.
Ken and Lake, I appreciate the feedback. I understand that nothing is written in stone and this is just a proposal (albeit a very popular one). I really strongly believe that tearing down ALL of Hemming's majestic trees (like the proposal) and it would be a huge mistake in subtropical high humidity Jacksonville, in contrast the temperate temperatures of NYC, Boston, Detroit etc, as they can get away without having any shade; Not to mention that they add beauty and character to the park. I wouldn't call current day Hemming Plaza the Gangsta's Paradise that circa 80's Bryant Park was (no hiding places, major terrain contrasts, high crime etc). Even many MJers already attested to that (like with the removal of the benches thread).
Like I said before, I understand that a flexible Hemming would make it more viable. I would keep as many of the perimeter area trees as I can, and remove the trees in the middle and the old fountains. There would still be plenty of space for green flexibility without making Hemming Plaza into a barren soccer field. Also I prefer smaller-sized parks to be somewhat asymmetrical (landscaping etc) to give it some character (like Campus Martius). I understand that Bryant Park is basically symmetrical, but it's also larger than Hemming. I don't believe that closing any streets to make the park larger is the answer, especially Laura (which of course we all know is the keyhole to the river); In speaking of something else that I disagree with, but that's for another time...
I kept seeing references to Bryant Park being larger than Hemming Park, but no numbers, I asked my friend Google.
Bryant Park is 9.6 acres.
Hemming Park is 1.5 acres
A factor of 6.
Creating some more flexible space in the middle could be good. But removing to many trees is not a good idea.
Quote from: I-10east on October 19, 2014, 04:15:17 AM
Ken and Lake, I appreciate the feedback. I understand that nothing is written in stone and this is just a proposal (albeit a very popular one). I really strongly believe that tearing down ALL of Hemming's majestic trees (like the proposal) and it would be a huge mistake in subtropical high humidity Jacksonville, in contrast the temperate temperatures of NYC, Boston, Detroit etc, as they can get away without having any shade; Not to mention that they add beauty and character to the park.
Just for further clarification, I wasn't advocating for the removal of Hemming's trees. I was just showing examples of a smaller space (Campus Martius Park = 1.2 acres) that is vibrant and designed to attract a diverse amount of residents and tourist. If Detroit can pull of something like that, I'm sure Jacksonville can as well.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 19, 2014, 08:50:25 AM
I kept seeing references to Bryant Park being larger than Hemming Park, but no numbers, I asked my friend Google.
Bryant Park is 9.6 acres.
Hemming Park is 1.5 acres
A factor of 6.
Creating some more flexible space in the middle could be good. But removing to many trees is not a good idea.
Charles, if you take a closer look, those acreage numbers are very misleading. The massive New York Public Library, one of the largest city libraries in the world, is technically considered part of Bryant Park, as is the front and rear library entrance and surrounding sidewalk. Looking at the aerial, you can easily cut at least 40% or so off that acreage.
(http://i.imgur.com/DTOfCie.png)
For a more accurate comparison, Bryant Park's central lawn is 1.1 acres, compared to Hemming Plaza's overall size of 1.54 acres. The yellow box below gives you a rough idea of how big Hemming Plaza is relative Bryant Park. Sure, Hemming is smaller, but so is Jacksonville. We don't need something as big as Bryant Park, and a smaller, more densely populated park would be more beneficial than an larger, sparsely populated space anyway.
(http://i.imgur.com/dv9Ab9y.png)
1.54 acres, plus anything you can add to the periphery, is more than enough space to create something truly special.
Their library is considered part of the park?
Thanks for the clarification, and the aerial, gives a better feel for the comparative sizes. But, as someone else said, I don't favor permanently closing the perimeter streets to increase the Park's footprint. Runs counter to the efforts to replace one-way streets with two-way.
There was nothing wrong with the design of Bryant Park when it was originally built. Back then, the population was generally God-fearing and law-abiding. Can't say the same today, which is sadly why this design would never work now. We have lost much from our descent from a moral (overall) society.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 19, 2014, 12:58:01 PM
But, as someone else said, I don't favor permanently closing the perimeter streets to increase the Park's footprint. Runs counter to the efforts to replace one-way streets with two-way.
Not sure how often you frequent the area, but I think if you're around there and you pay specific attention, you might re-consider that.
For the record I'd only be for closing 2 streets: Monroe and Duval. There is minimal thru-traffic on either, mostly just parking for JSO (Monroe) and news vans (Duval). I would like to see a large, accented pedestrian crosswalk in the middle of the block to allow for easier access to and from the MOCA, library and park, though.
On the other side, Hogan gets some thru-traffic, but the Skyway is more of a natural barrier and doesn't really allow for any reasoning to open up that side of the park.
But by removing both streets, you would increase the park by another 20ish feet on either side.
I'm not sure much is gained by closing any streets. The major problem I see is that most of the uses surrounding Hemming (the Outer Square) don't really interact with it. Better interaction can be achieved with or without street closure. Instead, something similar to what the City of Orlando does with Church Street might by more appropriate.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Orlando-2013/i-P9Hpzfj/0/XL/P1670494-XL.jpg)
Church Street is open to vehicular traffic most of the time.
(http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/lastcall/files/2011/01/amway.jpg)
However, it has movable bollards that allow it to become an outdoor extension of arena activities and special events when needed.
Using COJ's GIS system, it appears that there is 70' of ROW on both Monroe and Duval. The length of both blocks is about 315'. Closing off each street and expanding the park's boundaries to the adjacent buildings adds approximately 22,050 square feet. Add those two up and you get 44,100 square feet, or just over an acre. Incorporating both those blocks increases the park space from 1.54 acres to 2.55 acres.
If you close off Laura, you add an approximately 14,400 square feet (60' by 240') or . 33 acres. With that addition, you nearly double the park's size from 1.54 acres to 2.88 acres. If you further the road closing on Laura between Adams and Monroe (the holy grail of road closings), that number jumps to 3.27 acres. Closing Laura between Adams and Monroe opens up fantastic outdoor dining and block party possibilities, and would also serve as a great entryway into the park.
Now of course some of that park space "added" is already a functional part of the park, and some of it would have to remain bike/ped space, but it still would open up significantly more design options IF there is going to be a major overhaul of the park's design. Not to mention, it would make the park and surrounding uses significantly more pedestrian/park user friendly.
I'm going to pick the brain of an engineer and see what possible impacts there are for closing all those roads.
Maybe a combination of both of your suggestions, Lake & City:
I still don't see any benefit to keeping Duval and Monroe open, but I think it would be unproductive to close Laura, but if we were to take a page from many other cities and install removable bollards at both the intersections of Duval and Monroe on either side of the MOCA/Library and an additional set at Laura/Adams, you now have the potential for one helluva block party.
I guess the key to all of this would be to have enough of the right kinds of businesses surrounding the park that would interact with the street during the types of events that I'm picturing in my head. I'm thinking art gallery, bar, restaurant, niche retail, salon type places that would enjoy the benefit of random crowds congregating outside of their doors in the evening.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 19, 2014, 12:58:01 PM
Runs counter to the efforts to replace one-way streets with two-way.
For what it's worth, three of the four streets that border Bryant Park are one-way.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on October 19, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
There was nothing wrong with the design of Bryant Park when it was originally built. Back then, the population was generally God-fearing and law-abiding. Can't say the same today, which is sadly why this design would never work now. We have lost much from our descent from a moral (overall) society.
I would argue that the decline of Bryant Park resulted from factors far more socioeconomic than moral. The 1950s, 60s, and 70s were very tough for New York. The city lost much of its shipping to Jersey. Industry abandoned NYC for the cheaper suburbs as facilities reached end of life. White flight saw the city lose over a million people. Even the Dodgers and Giants packed up and moved to California. The tax base contracted significantly, neighborhoods rapidly deteriorated, and the NYPD and Parks Department didn't have the manpower or funding to properly patrol and maintain city parks like Bryant. At the time, New York City came very, very close to defaulting on its obligations and declaring bankruptcy.
Would also have a hard time thinking of 1930s and 40s New York City as some golden age of morality. Unless that definition of morality involves harsh segregation laws, arrest and forced lobotomy of homosexuals, hundreds of brothels, widespread domestic abuse, seven New York crime families all at the peak of their power, widespread police and government corruption, bootlegging, a burgeoning heroin epidemic, etc. Modern Manhattan is downright antiseptic today relative to when Bryant Park debuted its redesign.
This should be awesome.
Great work by DVI and FHP setting this up:
QuoteFull symphony playing two concerts at 'Musical Masquerade' Art Walk
Tuesday, November 4, 11:06 AM EST
By Max Marbut, Staff Writer
Art, culture and music will be celebrated in historic style Wednesday in Hemming Park when Downtown Vision presents "Musical Masquerade," the 11th anniversary edition of Art Walk.
Wednesday evening will be highlighted by two performances by the Jacksonville Symphony Orchestra, the first time the full 53-member orchestra has performed in the park.
The orchestra will perform at 6:30 p.m. and at 8:15 p.m., conducted by Michelle Merrill, who is assistant conductor of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra.
Having Jacksonville's symphony orchestra perform in Hemming Park has long been a goal for Downtown Vision Inc.
Marking Art Walk's 11th anniversary with the historic concerts will expose the orchestra to a new audience and also allow people to see some of the changes in store for the park, which was taken over Sept. 30 by the Friends of Hemming Park, a private nonprofit funded with $1 million from the city.
Katherine Hardwick, DVI marketing director, said Art Walk is likely to set a new record for attendance Wednesday, breaking the mark of nearly 20,000 people who attended last month's Oktoberfest.
"It's going to be something else," she said. "It's a great opportunity to showcase what Hemming Park is going to become."
Full story: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=544237
I have my coat and mask ready for tomorrow night
^ Sounds like it was a pretty special evening last night at Hemming Park.
Badly wanted to go, but fighting off a nasty cold.
FHP and DVI are off to a pretty incredible start with Hemming.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/video/2014/11/jacksonville-symphony-makes-history-with-hemming.html
Amazing just how many people that park will accommodate. It seems to get larger the more people who show up. I'm still a big believer that going back to a mostly-grass park, as opposed to bricks and concrete, would be even more accommodating.
Good job Jax Symphony!
It was an awesome experience last night! Watching an amazing orchestra under the stars as the people mover came and went, it was a uniquely jacksonville experience. I hope they do this again soon.
Had a great time at Hemming, listening to the Orchestra, and, as johnnyliar said, watching the people mover go by. Good energy in the crowd.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/video/2014/11/watch-the-jacksonville-symphony-orchestra-in.html
Getting rid of the trees is a silly idea. It's basically a concrete canyon. The trees provide a beautiful oasis just like the squares of Savannah do.
We don't need grass there.
Hemming Park Plaza is functionally great but could use more style in the use of artistic bike racks and seating.
Last winter I attended an evening meeting at the Ed Ball Building that ended around ten. It was chilly and rained all day but by night there was a mist in the air.
I walked through a deserted Hemming Plaza (guess it was too late/cold/damp for the homeless.
The cloudy sky, mist and general fog along with the Confederate monument floodlit and soft music coming out of those speakers, the whole place seemed very romantic.
I was mesmerized and spent about a half hour just wandering around the square seeing, truly experiencing Hemming Park for the first time.