How maps created for fire insurers show the evolution of cities.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Jacksonville-Sanborn-Maps/i-DgLsk8n/0/X2/IMAG0039-X2.jpg)
QuoteSanborn maps are crowded with detail and color. So is their history.
Daniel A. Sanborn created these maps for one, very specific (and kind of dry) reason: to provide insurers a catalogue of city structures that could be fire risks. But over the years, these maps came to serve another purpose. Flipping through a series of maps of the same location, you can see mushrooming buildings, shops, and churches and deduce who lived, worked, and prayed in these structures. So, apart from insurance companies, historians, genealogists, and scholars started looking them them up for the moving pictures of urban growth that they offered.
"It was accidental in some respect," says Chris Genovese, general manager at Sanborn, which still offers mapping services with updated technology. When they started the maps, they had never imagined they would be of use to anyone else but their insurance-company patrons.
Full article: http://www.citylab.com/housing/2014/10/the-accidental-revelations-of-sanborn-maps/381262/
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Jacksonville-Sanborn-Maps/i-Wn3cZ3q/0/X2/IMAG0048-X2.jpg)
I agree. Up on the top floor at the Jacksonville Library downtown is a room full of Sanborn maps. (Supervision required, but if you are nice, they will leave you alone)
Using them, I was able to locate a pre-civil war cemetery on the block of Duval/Myrtle/Monroe just west of I-95.
Unfortunately, the urban landscape has changed so much, when I went out to walk the actual space, I was greeted by not 1, but 2, JSO officers wanting to know what my business was even though I was technically parked on a public street (Monroe), it had basically become a tree filled alley. I tried to explain, and they wouldn't listen and told me to get out of dodge immediately.
I also looked up Sanborn's to examine growth on the southside, especially southward from the southbank into the old Philips neighborhood.
I agree, they are a great historical tool.
There was a huge debate on this site about the actual location of that cemetery a few years back. Some of us believe it is the lot east of Myrtle where several shotgun houses were demolished before 2010. After further mapping analysis I'm in the group that believes the cemetery was located on the west side of Myrtle.
Lost Church, Lost Battlefield, Lost Cemetery, Lost War
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-lost-church-lost-battlefield-lost-cemetery-lost-war#.VD5dlPldUYk
Haha. As you know, I scanned the original maps mentioned and scaled them with a series of Sanborn maps and present day aerials. I also saved the results I shared. I have a deadline for a project today, but I will dig them up and post to show how I came to my final conclusion after I put my fires out.
Hi,
While doing some genealogical research I came across a RootsWeb posting from 2001 in which a researcher had listed all of her information on current & historical cemeteries in Duval County. This particular cemetery (Old Brick Church) was included in the list, so I thought I'd attach the link in case anyone was interested.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/FLDUVAL/2001-06/0991947280
Please note the thread is in two parts.
Stephen, Did you ever get pictures of those headstones? Names or dates? I was about to step into the weeds when JSO showed up.
Also checked on the property owners. Last time I looked most of the lots were owned by a guy in Orange Park. I tried to reach him to see if he knew what he had. Perhaps he was aggregating them to make a park since it has Jax history aligned with it.
After JSO chased me off, I kinda dropped it and looked at Sanborns for other areas. I never knew how wide McCoys Creek was until I saw an old map of Brooklyn.
I love those maps.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/774972840_dYobh-M.jpg)
I seriously doubt those were actual headstones. Rocks, construction debris, illegal dumping, perhaps, but headstones? The site east of Myrtle was utilized by a variety of businesses for most of the late 19th/early 20th century. Even if it were a cemetery, headstones would not have survived decades of industrial use, storage yard use, etc., indicated through various Sanborn maps and City Directories over the last century.
As this thread's title suggests, the many accidental revelations can be discovered via Sanborn maps. In 1913, the site was a junkyard in the center, with several bordellos, rowhousing, and stables on the remaining sections of the parcel.
(http://128.227.24.32:8080/ImageServer/imageserver?res=4&viewwidth=1536&viewheight=1536&rotation=0&filename=UF%5C00%5C07%5C41%5C82%5C00003%5CUF70000076n065.jp2)
1913 Sanborn
In the 1949 Sanborn map below, the stables have been replaced with a larger industrial building on Adams, rows of shotguns still line Myrtle and Duval. On Monroe, the bordellos in 1913 are apartments in 1949. The undeveloped site is the location of the 1913 junkyard, which has been demolished. The land that was undeveloped in 1913, is now a saw mill. Eight more shotgun houses are also on Monroe in the center of the property.
(http://sanborn.umi.com/sanborn/image/fetchimage?state=fl&reelid=reel05&lcid=1286&imagename=00065&width=1254&CCSI=&crop=1,52-925,751)
1949 Sanborn
The last randomly pulled Sanborn is the property in 1958. In this one, the wood yard has closed.
(http://sanborn.umi.com/sanborn/image/fetchimage?state=fl&reelid=reel05&lcid=1286&imagename=00241&width=1712&CCSI=&crop=70,579-837,1154)
1951 Sanborn
Just in three randomly pulled Sanborns, most of the property where these rocks were "discovered", had a dense collection of buildings sitting on them. While I do believe the cemetery was located on the west side of Myrtle (which has also been developed), cemetery or not, I seriously doubt the rocks are anything significant. It's hard imagining over 50 buildings have been built and demolished on that site over the last century but a Civil War era cemetery is all that remains today.
I'm sure some of the larger structures had foundations two feet deep. I'm still skeptical, but that's nothing new, considering our analysis years ago. However, I will post the scaled collection of maps later on.
I've been in the field on several projects where people have misinterpreted their findings. It happens.
Alright you guys. Go easy on each other.
I went back further and found out why Monroe street has that little "kink" in it at Hanover.
In the 1870-1880's a gentleman (haven't found his name yet) built a somewhat large house next to the Old Brick Church property, but Monroe had not yet been platted that far west of the city. The house and property line was aligned somewhat with the St Johns River, not the city. Later when the city did extend Monroe out farther west, it didn't line up very well with this guys property and for a long time, Monroe ended right there. For all I know it could have been a pretty nice bordello as it was much larger than the surrounding houses and shacks.
In the Sanborn that Lake has posted, that original property has been subdivided 3 ways, but the "kink" in Monroe stayed. From what I can tell the old cemetery is that little yellow box to the left of #17. At least that is where I was looking before JSO got terse with me. The "Old Brick Church" would have stood between that yellow box and where Monroe was eventually extended.
COJ has thrown up signs on Monroe since I was out there to stay off even though by law it is still a public street. You can see it clearly from I-95.
I will see if I can pull up my research on it.
Quote from: spuwho on October 15, 2014, 09:14:38 PM
Alright you guys. Go easy on each other.
Ah, we're just having fun. No hard feelings. We've debated this before, years ago.
QuoteI went back further and found out why Monroe street has that little "kink" in it at Hanover.
In the 1870-1880's a gentleman (haven't found his name yet) built a somewhat large house next to the Old Brick Church property, but Monroe had not yet been platted that far west of the city. The house and property line was aligned somewhat with the St Johns River, not the city. Later when the city did extend Monroe out farther west, it didn't line up very well with this guys property and for a long time, Monroe ended right there. For all I know it could have been a pretty nice bordello as it was much larger than the surrounding houses and shacks.
In the Sanborn that Lake has posted, that original property has been subdivided 3 ways, but the "kink" in Monroe stayed. From what I can tell the old cemetery is that little yellow box to the left of #17. At least that is where I was looking before JSO got terse with me. The "Old Brick Church" would have stood between that yellow box and where Monroe was eventually extended.
COJ has thrown up signs on Monroe since I was out there to stay off even though by law it is still a public street. You can see it clearly from I-95.
I will see if I can pull up my research on it.
When we ran this story years ago, I just assumed the cemetery was on the east side of Myrtle because the guys had maps and said so. A few days later, I was informed by a local historian with an infatuation for abandoned cemeteries that their research had placed the cemetery on the west side of Myrtle. Naturally, there was a disagreement, so I figured since we had the maps, it would be easy to prove one way or the other by overlaying the originals, with Sanborns and present day Google Earth aerials at the same scale. Here's the result:
19th century plat map + 1913 Sanborn map + present day Google Earth aerial. At the same scale, they align perfectly.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/cemetery/i-wQXJDc9/0/XL/Mixed%20LaVilla%20overlay-XL.jpg)
Zoomed in view of the 19th century plat map. Mind you, most of these streets were never built.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/cemetery/i-TX7cZQL/0/XL/Mixed%20LaVilla-plat-XL.jpg)
Zoomed in view of the 19th century plat map with cemetery highlighted in red.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/cemetery/i-rKBZ83K/0/XL/Mixed%20LaVilla-plat-cemetery-XL.jpg)
Preparing the 19th century plat map for the early 20th century Sanborn map.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/cemetery/i-sBP6mCJ/0/XL/Mixed%20LaVilla-plat-cemetery-light-XL.jpg)
19th century plat map + 1913 Sanborn map. You can see the brick house near Hanover Street in this one. I'm not sure why Monroe changes direction west of Cleveland. It appears it could have been extended, following LaVilla's grid and ended up at Myrtle just fine. I suspect it the change is likely due to land ownership during that era.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/cemetery/i-SDNVtNk/0/XL/Mixed%20LaVilla-plat-1913%20Sanborn%20overlay-XL.jpg)
19th century plat map + 1913 Sanborn map + 2012 Google Earth aerial
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/cemetery/i-tLPvMD9/0/XL/Mixed%20LaVilla-plat-1913%20Sanborn-Google%20Earth%20Aerial%20overlay-XL.jpg)
Finally, removing the 19th century plat map & 1913 Sanborn map, but leaving the cemetery outline overlayed to scale over the 2012 Google Earth aerial.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/cemetery/i-MT6qqpb/0/XL/Mixed%20LaVilla-cemetery-Google%20Earth%20Aerial-XL.jpg)
The map this article was built off of suggests that the cemetery is on the other side of Myrtle and pretty close to the creek that used to run to the west. Now that map could certainly be off or the cemetery could have been larger than it was at the time of that plat. Nevertheless, additional research of the structures built on the east side of Myrtle and some of the industrial uses that took place on that site in the early 20th century would suggest Civil War era graveliners or whatever, probably won't be lying exposed to every joe blow that passes through this forgotten section of LaVilla today.
Btw, that little section of LaVilla used to be pretty cool when I first came to town. It still had stretches of dense housing stock and even in decay, you could get a feel for the area's density during an era long gone bye. Here's a few pictures of houses on this site that I took over eight years ago. All of these were demolished a few years back, leaving the field that lies there today.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/durkeeville/LaVilla1.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/durkeeville/LaVilla2.jpg)
Quote from: spuwho on October 15, 2014, 09:14:38 PM
COJ has thrown up signs on Monroe since I was out there to stay off even though by law it is still a public street. You can see it clearly from I-95.
Just out of curiosity: What is the issue with Monroe, i.e. why does the city want people to stay off ?
Cause illegal activity has taken place there in the past.
Good research Lake. I like it. The only concern is translating that original plat mapping to modern more precise grids we have today.
But it is interesting that the cemetery plot line matches the angle of Myrtle very well. I can see why this pull forward of maps is convincing.
This may have been a public burial ground at one time.
Most churches of the era had their cemeteries adjacent to the actual church itself. This is why I was looking off Monroe. I agree with Stephen on the trees being something of an age marker. And that plot of land has a large share of old growth on it.
I will have to go to the library and see if I can find some better records post civil war on what was then Jacksonville's "west side"
As far as JSO and the property restrictions, there was a dumping problem there for awhile and then it was a frequent drug meet location. Fortunately no one has come in and cut down the old growth (yet), that was one of the reasons I was trying to locate the owner of the parcels. That and to get permission to survey it with a detector and see if I could outline the graves with certainty and with legality.
Quote from: stephendare on October 16, 2014, 12:52:03 PM
i think the mistake accrues with the assumption that the graphed out platting map with the old city cemetery is perfectly in scale to the physical geography.
Yes, what's shown on the original plat map could be wrong. If it is accurate, then that's the location.
Quote from: spuwho on October 16, 2014, 12:26:27 PM
Good research Lake. I like it. The only concern is translating that original plat mapping to modern more precise grids we have today.
My starting point was scaling the maps from the LaVilla/Downtown grid that did exist at the time. Every street from Broad to Cleveland maps accurately, suggesting the scales are correct. If the cemetery is not in the location the map suggests, it's because the original plat map has it in the wrong spot. Regardless of location, I still question that easy to find debris on the site today is from a Civil War era cemetery and not from the remains of +50 structures that have been built and demolished east of Myrtle over the last century. I'm an analytical guy who needs more than casual opinions interpreting the origin of debris on an illegal dumping site.
QuoteBut it is interesting that the cemetery plot line matches the angle of Myrtle very well. I can see why this pull forward of maps is convincing.
This may have been a public burial ground at one time.
Most churches of the era had their cemeteries adjacent to the actual church itself. This is why I was looking off Monroe. I agree with Stephen on the trees being something of an age marker. And that plot of land has a large share of old growth on it.
I don't think a couple of random oaks tree are a strong indicator without some survey/data to solidify the assumption.
QuoteI will have to go to the library and see if I can find some better records post civil war on what was then Jacksonville's "west side"
Also, drop by the Jacksonville Historical Society Archives at St. Lukes. I believe they have more readily available information you can use, on this cemetery as well.
Speaking of "Westside", this area is where the "Westside" Church of Christ at 8th & Main in Springfield got their name. Originally, the church was located off Myrtle Avenue, just north of McCoys Creek.
Lake, A bit off topic but since you grabbed those shots of the old LaVilla Housing, make damn sure you snap those shotguns on Oakley just east of Spearing in Oakland. Amazingly beautiful cracker architecture.
We ought to categorize our files of such, 'shotguns', 'dog trots', modified dog trot... etc. This way we could be certain to grab at least some examples of each type.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-TVWVZdn/0/XL/shotgun%20oakley-XL.jpg)
I love shotgun architecture. I just looked up this location on Google Earth. I had no idea those were still there. Thanks for the lead.
Here's another row that hasn't been torn down yet. It's on Cleveland Street just west of I-95 in what used to be known as Sugar Hill.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-jbR4JSb/0/XL/Shotguns%20Sugar%20Hill-XL.jpg)
Shotguns are a major reason why Jax had a much higher population density 50 years ago. They're our historical version of the North's rowhouses. They are a dying breed in our city today. Jax's Sanborn maps illustrate the proliferation of their development all over our city after the Great Fire of 1901. Today, with LaVilla, Hansontown, Sugar Hill, and Brooklyn extinct, the largest concentration is probably what's left in the Eastside, just north of 1st Street.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Jacksonville-Sanborn-Maps/i-jth622q/0/XL/IMAG0049-XL.jpg)
Yes, it is quite possible the location of the cemetery on the original plat could be wrong. With the scale used in overlaying the original plat with the other maps, look for two key points west and east of the cemetery location. The creek to the west and Broad Street to the east, align perfectly between the plat map, google earth aerial, and 1913 sanborn map. It's virtually impossible for the things in between to fall out of alignment unless one of the originals is wrong from the beginning. Nevertheless, the maps are one of many things that can be used as tools to help verify exact location.
Here is an zoomed in image from Augustus Koch's birdseye view of Jacksonville from 1893.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3951/15366749939_d6124a78eb.jpg)
The road at the far left with a NW angle is what existed of Myrtle. The street coming across the top is now Church Street West. The two streets that end at what is called "Division Lane" on the map are Duval and Monroe. The street with a horse drawn traction below Monroe is today Adams.
Where Monroe turns into a "nothing" on this picture is where today, it has a "kink" in it due to property lines that predate the street. Hanover Street didn't exist then. Today, anything east of Division Lane is underneath I-95. What's left of Division Lane is Cleveland Street now.
There is a large house (almost looks like a school with the circular rotunda at the front)facing Adams, but right behind it is the "Old Brick Church". My thoughts are that the cemetery for that church is just above where Monroe is today.
Here is my take based on the research so far. I would still like to go upstairs at the library and pull some more maps to verify.
Top photo is a crude update to a Google aerial.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3944/15367810067_59aceb4f18.jpg)
Next one looking south from Duval Street. I got as far as the cemetery fence before the 2 JSO cars showed up.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5616/15530114476_5a27cdae98.jpg)
And then I found this dude surveying the property through the Google Cam... Lakelander I presume?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/15554669382_f3be158382.jpg)
I went back in time on that neighborhood to 2007 and this is why the cops jump on you so quickly.
The cemetery was essentially a shanty town with loads of dumped garbage everywhere. The row houses on Duval are still standing (they are all gone today). There were some classic row houses on Monroe at Cleveland in 2007 and they looked great back then, totally gone now.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3941/15551249191_5224f1400b.jpg)
After spending the last couple of hours down this rabbit hole and looking at various descriptions, deeds, and maps, I believe Ennis is spot on in his assessment. From this description:
(The Old) Brick Church Cemetery
Church site was on Church St (formerly Old Black Creek Rd) just W of Myrtle Ave
Cemetery site was "of considerable size just to the south of it"
to the deeds where the lot on the SW corner of Church and Myrtle is described as the "Baptist Church lot in LaVilla" and the parcel surrounding it has a Southerly border that butts up to the Northerly borderline of the Consolidated Service Co. also known as the Northerly boundary of the old Baptist Cemetery.
Spuwho, the house you describe above from the 1893 map is pretty distinct in shape and looking at the 1913 Sanborn map, looks exactly like the structure at the SW corner of Monroe and Hanover.
One other thing to consider. I read this in the original thread:
The cemetery that was attached to the "little
brick church" still remains, and is the property of
the First Baptist Church.
3 Annual of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, 1909.
If this is true, would the cemetery show up on a Sanborn map pre-1909? I don't know if cemeteries were included on Sanborn maps or not, but it is something worth checking out.
I think everyone involved has done an excellent job in uncovering this piece of forgotten history, but it is my belief that Ennis has correctly cited the location of the old cemetery.
Yes, Sanborn maps show cemeteries. I don't think the JPL's collection dates back to 1909 but COJ, JHS or university library may have a collection that does.
Quote from: spuwho on October 17, 2014, 12:39:56 AM
I went back in time on that neighborhood to 2007 and this is why the cops jump on you so quickly.
The cemetery was essentially a shanty town with loads of dumped garbage everywhere. The row houses on Duval are still standing (they are all gone today). There were some classic row houses on Monroe at Cleveland in 2007 and they looked great back then, totally gone now.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3941/15551249191_5224f1400b.jpg)
Yes. The site east of Myrtle had been developed and accommodated a mix of residential, commercial, and industrial uses since the late 1800s. I remember that junkyard and people living in the shotgun rows when I came to town in 2001. I really find it hard to believe that random debris found on that site in 2010
(right after the remaining structures were demolished) is going to have 19th century cemetery remains exposed out in the open. Neverthless, I never thought about looking at the deeds of parcels in the vicinity. That's a nice find by riverside_mail.
I can't take credit for finding the deed records; stjr posted a link to them in the original thread. All I did was put the pieces together.
After re-reading the 2010 materials from Stephen and Riverside Mail, and looking at Lakelanders research,, the thought came to me that there were probably 2 cemeteries. A small one next to the church and a larger plot of land purchased (or donated to) on behalf of Bethel across Myrtle.
There was a lawsuit between the Bethel Baptists and the Tabernacle Baptists (now FBC) on who owned the land and buildings post Civil War. The Tabernacle Baptists lost that suit in court and had to pay the Bethels.
One thing I would like to look at is the court records of that case and how it was settled.
Would also like to see some maps/ records from the property appraiser for Duval County post Civil War, if they werent destroyed by the Fire. These would show official property lines and show the owners, even if it was a farm.
Going through the Sanborns, since they were mostly for insurance purposes only properties eligible or covered by insurance are included.
^Make sure to stop by the JHS archives. I believe there are records to help eliminate or confirm the speculation.
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2014, 12:07:19 AM
The actual question is whether the parcel to the east of present day myrtle was part of the cemetery, not whether or not the cemetery was mainly on the west side of myrtle, which if you actually read through the original story was always maintained.
The debate has never been to prove that the bulk of the cemetery wasn't west of myrtle, but whether the cemetery (whose existence had been completely forgotten until we uncovered the remnant of it at the site described) included the sliver to the east.
This is a new spin on the conversation. Now that we're finally admitting the bulk of the cemetery was on the west and my scaled mapping assessment had some merit, as confirmed by the property deeds west of Myrtle and the original plat maps you have in your possession, we can now move on to the discussion of if there may have been burial grounds outside or adjacent to the main cemetery. Maybe. However, I believe stronger analysis would be needed to confirm the accuracy.
QuoteWhole grave sites simply do not become 'random debris', no matter how much one might wish to characterize them as such.
Correct. grave sites do not become 'random debris'. Left overs of multiple on-site building demolitions, junkyard debris, and elements of illegal dumping sites do. Further analysis would be needed to confirm the location of any 150 year old grave sites, assuming they exist on the site. A random walk through of the property in its current state would not be sufficient enough to confirm the assumption.
QuoteAs I described in the original story, the tree line which would have been around the outskirts of the old burial ground is on both sides of myrtle (or at least it still was a few years ago)
The tree line doesn't match the layout shown on the original plat map in your possession. If they had anything to do with a burial ground, the remaining trees east of Myrtle would indicate a different layout.
QuoteSince the land was largely unplatted and undeveloped (I believe the ownership really starts getting described in the properties of Paran Moody (who gravestone is in the Old City Cemetery at the other end of downtown, btw) it really wouldn't tell you much to know who owned the land as the property was being referred to as the 'old cemetery' in the late 1870s (the time of the map it sits on)
I believe the points you now raise would validate my questioning of the accuracy of your plat map. Scaled correctly, that plat map places the entire burial ground west of present day Myrtle. In fact, it looks like Myrtle may have been laid out to avoid going through it. However, we're now speculating on if was larger or if another cemetery was once located across the street. Neither of these things are present on that plat map.
QuoteThat map shows the oldest names of the streets of downtown, in an order that they do not exist today. For example, check out the position of Ward Street.
It's a plat map. That doesn't mean all the streets shown on it became reality. It's obvious, outside of the areas closest to downtown, most did not. The development form of what exists today is a result of century-old replats.
QuoteFrom the beginning though the question is not whether the City has correctly identified that the old cemetery lay mostly under the land occupied by the JEA, but whether or not the southeast corner of it lies partially on the property where we have correctly identified it.
Doesn't seem that way, since for years I've been told that perhaps my scales on those maps are off, despite the location of the creek on the west and Broad Street and LaVilla's street network on the east align perfectly with the Sanborns and present day Google Earth aerials. Nevertheless, I believe this speculation has merit. There very well could have been a much larger cemetery or even a few random graves buried outside of the cemetery shown on the late 1800s plat map. However, more confirmation would be needed that. You mentioned the Joel McEachin's office reopened their files on this cemetery after the 2010 article was published. It's been four years. What was their final assessment?
QuoteAnd that question has been amply proven by hard evidence, like the grave bed.
It has not been disproven by what amounts to speculation as to why the main layout of the graveyard is in the same place identified in the original article.
However I also agree that the discussion has been fascinating, as the history of the property after it was no longer a graveyard has been described in fascinating detail.
I'm not sure your personal interpretation of what you saw walking on site is enough to confirm gravesites, given the history of this site since the late 1800s. In fact, it isn't. However, it is speculation that deserves an extra amount of scrutiny and evaluation to either confirm or deny. With that in mind, I'd be highly interested to see what the Office of Historic Preservation's findings were. I'm also interested to see what happened to the graves in the confirmed site west of Myrtle. Were they relocated or do we have some Poltergeist thing going on with the warehouses across the street. I'll contact them or drop by their office next week.
Stephen's theory that the debris he found was material from burial vaults got me thinking: what were the burial practices from that time period? Here's what I found on Wikipedia under burial vault (I know it's Wikipedia, but the following was sourced from books. I've included the source material).
Although quite commonly used in many industrialized countries, the burial vault is very much a funerary item used almost exclusively in the 20th century. In the United States, the burial vault was largely unknown until the 1880s when the L.G. Haase Manufacturing Co., which owned a cemetery in Illinois, conceived the burial vault as a means of adding a product line to their funerary sales.
Mariaca-Sullivan, Katherine (2011). When a Loved One Dies. Amherst, N.H.: Kaleidoscope Books. ISBN 9780983232414
As late as 1915, only 5 to 10 percent of funerals in the United States used a burial vault or liner.
Mitford, Jessica (1998). The American Way of Death Revisited. New York: Alfred A. Knopf. ISBN 0679450378.
So, as to Stephen's theory, is it possible he saw remains of grave liners? Yes, it's possible, but highly improbable according to the above statements.
(http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt305/jpmartins/Funny/Moonwalk.gif)
The debris I was referring to were the things in the images below that have been described as something relating back to a 19th century cemetery, burial ground, grave, etc.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/774972840_dYobh-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/774984809_b25ud-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-lost-church-lost-battlefield-lost-cemetery-lost-war/page/1#.VEJsWPnF8Yk
This exact site (the little parcel of land north of Monroe between Myrtle and Hanover) was a junkyard and illegal dumping site for decades. Before that it was a saw mill/wood products manufacturing site. The little field south of it had a warehouse on it and was used for years as another junkyard. It was also a part of that wood products manufacturing site. The land on the edges consisted of several shotgun houses, a gas station, and a host of other commercial uses. I'm just saying the rocks in those images are more likely something left over from previous use of the site in the 20th/21st century and not the 19th century. If a visual assumption is being made, partially based off a 19th century map that highlights burial grounds across the street, all I'm saying is more in depth analysis is needed for factual confirmation.
It was mentioned a few posts ago that the City's historical preservation office had reopened their files on this site, due to Metro Jacksonville's 2010 article. It's been four years, so it will be interesting to see what their assessment ended up being. I'll check with them next week, since I need to get some info on another MJ story in the works.
I'll check with the preservation office on Monday. After this discovery four years ago, they should have a lot of credible historical info that we can post online.
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2014, 09:04:14 AM
riverside mail, after a moment of thought-----after addressing your misunderstanding of the taxonomy of bed v. vault, I realized on reflection that your point (which has no bearing on this conversation) is also factually wrong.
Vaults were very much in use, especially here in the south, along the swampy coastal lands near rivers. In fact, in New Orleans, the practice is almost exclusive in the 1800s and 1900s.
Consider the wikipedia listing for St. Louis Cemetery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Louis_Cemetery
Again, it has no bearing on the discovery of a grave bed in Jacksonville. (identical techniques of whose building can easily be observed in the succeeding Old City Cemetery), but just factually I think you should disabuse yourself of the notion.
The St. Louis cemetery is famous for it's above ground vaults, not the vaults to which I was refering. The burial vaults I refered to are the underground structures, usually made of concrete in modern times, in to which the casket is deposited and sealed. Is this not to what you were refering when you used the term "grave liner" or "grave bed"? It was my assumption that we were discussing the same thing using different terms. If I am wrong in my assumption, I apologize forthwith and am eager to know exactly what you mean by grave bed or grave liner.
When he said grave liner, I was thinking of that small layer of concrete they sometimes pour into gravesites, especially ones in swampy areas. It helps keep the casket in place but also keeps out tree roots and water table shift which can make the casket get pushed back up.
I didnt see it used often the north but at a few cemetaries.
Some houses that were on this site when I first moved to town a decade ago.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Urban-Core-Demolitions/i-kzGtRqp/0/L/DCP_7443-L.jpg)
It was either post here, or go back to the original cemetery discussion from 2010.
I spent 2.5 hours at the Jacksonville Historical Society today going through old city records to see if I could get a more solid line on the mysterious Baptist Cemetery at and around Myrtle and Monroe.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15745741946_b7510fb503.jpg)
First off let me say that there is a lot of work ahead of me on this. Just the city records alone will take me several man hours to sort through. Now that we have that out of the way, here is what I located today.
1877 Map of Jacksonville.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7519/15584629370_e6553bf6db.jpg)
As you can see Adams is shown as a plank road leading out to a dog leg north to Black Creek Road. I could not tell if the circle at Myrtle Creek is a cemetery or a pond. There was special notation that was illegible and there was no map references, so this was bit of a wash.
One thing I liked about this map was the neighborhood identities. "Honeymoon" "Campbell Hill" were all there.
So after looking at maps, I decided to dig into the property plats. Seeing that I should start early and move forward, I looked for the earliest plat map I could find. I pulled up what was essentially plat map #1 from 1836-1851. The range is because it was originally platted by the Territorial Surveyor and then updated by the US Surveyor General in Tallahassee and then signed off by the US Bureau of Lands. That signoff happened in 1907.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7575/15584046698_92afa888de.jpg)
Sorry for the fuzziness. The new archivist at JHS says there is one other copy of this plat survey and it is in Tallahassee. Fortunately, someone at COJ encased these documents in plastic in the 1960's it appears. The plastic is getting a bit rotted, but the documents are safe.
The following below is the 1840 plat map of Duval County with downtown looking west. I could not find a good location to keep the light shining off the plastic. Next time I will find a better location to picture these. I was trying to be a good citizen being my first time there and not dragging these all over the place.
No church, no cemetery in the expected location at this time. Downtown Jacksonville is pretty much owned by the Hogan Family. Hogan's Creek, McCoy's Creek are all quite visible.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8578/15584670140_13929e40dd.jpg)
Ock would be happy to know that all of the pre-Civil War railroads were clearly marked by the surveyor.
While I was in the book, I tried to find any references to Fort Caroline, Vale Laudennaire, etc. just to see if there were any nuggets.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7495/15745915166_93e3acb90f.jpg)
I see Calypso Island here and the owner of the surrounding land, but nothing that would show any signs of historical value. I did see a lot of property owned by pre-territorial Spanish families. Especially around Queens Harbor, Near the Beaches and some other locations.
The rest of the plat books I could find were all post 1936.
So now I am off to the record of deeds. There are over 700 Record of Deeds books and each one weighs 15 pounds. There is no index, so I am working backwards and I only get as far as 1928 before my time is up.
So on my next visit, I will be hitting those record of deeds and see if I can retrace the path of the "Old Brick Church" and that mysterious cemetery.