Listing to 1010am on my way to work this morning, Tony Boselli and Dan Hickens were ripping this idea to shreads, claiming the city could have given them $50k and they could have told them it would not work in less than five minutes.
Boats for commute among optionsQuoteTransportation officials wonder if the cost is feasible.
By LARRY HANNAN, The Times-Union
Pat Franklin likes the thought of commuting from her home in Fruit Cove to her job in downtown Jacksonville by taking a boat on the St. Johns River.
Although there are no such public transportation boats now, Jacksonville Transportation Authority and First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization officials said the idea isn't dead yet.
A Cambridge Systematics study for the two agencies found providing waterborne transportation on the St. Johns River and the Intracoastal Waterway would cost millions to get going.
Franklin, who works as a secretary for the Florida Baptist Convention, said taking a boat downtown would better than having to deal with downtown traffic every day. The high cost of gas makes commuting difficult, and the bus schedules aren't rider-friendly, she said.
But the $200,000 Cambridge Systematics study indicates ridership on a boat would be just 400 to 750 people a day. Like many public transportation systems in the nation, it also would lose money every year.
The study is being tabled until early 2009, when a second study that is looking at ways to expand rail service is released. The two studies will be discussed at the same time to come up with the best solution for how to improve public transportation in the Jacksonville area, JTA spokeswoman Wendy Morrow said.
In the past, Jacksonville officials have rejected waterborne transportation as not being cost-feasible. Initial reaction to the Cambridge study suggests that still is the view of many regional leaders.
Planning organization member Stephen Joost said he didn't see the need to look into the issue any further after Cambridge released the report.
"We're talking about spending $40 million for 700 riders," he said. "What I'm hearing is that it's not feasible, so let's put an end to it."
QuoteCleve Warren, chairman of the JTA board, said expanded commuter rail service will probably be the best-case scenario for improving public transportation in the future.
Rail systems and bus systems in the city need to be expanded and combined. That is the best way to move a lot of people, Hayes said.
He used to live in Los Angeles and a similar system worked well out there, Hayes said.
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/051908/met_280464228.shtml
I hope Cleve Warren has some pull with the board to help expedite the implementation of commuter rail.
A look at what the TU forum community thinks about using boats for commute.
QuoteRe: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: getreal
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 07:36 a.m.
"the $200,000 Cambridge Systematics study"
Are you freakin kidding me? The JTA did a study on this in the 90's and it clearly showed that the whole concept wasn't feasible. This is the same group the City paid hundreds of thousands to for a copycat/boilerplate Downtown Master Plan that hasn't produced anything.
Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: ItsJustDave
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 08:12 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by getreal
Same geniuses who paid a firm to come up with the wonderful "Where Florida Begins" and "Bold New City of the South" slogans. A lot cheaper and better esults if they'd have just had a contest in the newspaper or in the schools.
Anyone STILL think that amendment one was a bad idea? Even in financial hard times, these morons find a way to slap the taxpayer right in the chops. $200,000 might be a relatively small sum, but it's the stupidity of it rather than the cost.
$40 million for maybe 700 riders? That's $57,000 each. Cheaper just to buy everyone their own boat.
Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: avatar
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 08:26 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by ItsJustDave
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Can you say "Automated Skyway Express"?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: jaxpagan
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 08:57 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by avatar
"Can you say "Automated Skyway Express"?"
You know, I wouldn't have a problem with the Skyway, if it was a true city transit system -- if it ran all the way to Avenues, Regency, etc, maybe down Roosevelt.
I'm a big fan of streetcars. Nothing compares to them, nothing. Heck, the big carmakers had to buy them and shut them down when they were trying to popularize the auto. The Skyway is nothing more than an elevated streetcar. Used right, it could be great (though a plain old streetcar would be cheaper).
But yes, this study was a joke. More excess money spent when it didn't have to be. Maybe we should elect someone that DOESN'T go to First Baptist. Just for a change.
Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: Battleship Sailor
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 09:00 a.m.
And boats are slow. 10 to 15 mph is what your commute would average.
Light rail is still the best solution. A real lightrail system, not the ridiculous people mover. The longer the city waits to go that route, the more expensive it will be.
Boats? Incredible that it was even considered for commuters. For recreation it would be fine. Go downtown to a club, dinner, or show and enjoy the ride. That would work fine.
Was that 200 grand our tax money?
Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: getreal
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 09:17 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by Battleship Sailor
"Light rail is still the best solution."
A rail syustem in Jax is not pratical for a large portion of the City because of the river and the need to build bridges. I would do for the Northside and Westside, but south and east it's not going to work. The only way to truly get an effectivbe transit system is to get the larger employers to back it. As long as every employer in Jax provides their employees with a parking lot right next to the building then they're not going to get people to ride transit. Even JTA has a HUGE parking lot for all of its employees.
Our building codes and zoning basically require any development to be designed as if every single visitor/customer/employee will be driving to that destination in a car, and will be driving alone. That includes the fair share calculations that developers must perform for permitting.
Until they change that process than any money we sink into transit is just a waste.
Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: ItsJustDave
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 09:31 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by Battleship Sailor
Light rail is the ONLY answer. Jacksonville has a choice: build a light rail system over the next couple of decades, or build flyovers and beltways. It will take time. It will take money. It MUST be designed and overseen by outsiders (St. Louis, Dallas maybe). Jax's transportation people have proven themselves incompetent; they can't even run buses from the beaches or Orange Park to the Avenues or St. John's Town Center. For any public transit system to work, it must take people from where they live to where they want to go - for less money and in a reasonable time frame. That means at LEAST four spurs: Airport to downtown via main street; Beaches to downtown via A1A then Butler, Beach or Atlantic; Orange park via Blanding; Mandarin area via Phillips Highway. Supporting bus routes would be needed to shuttle people from their neighborhoods to the train stops.
Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: Ishmael
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 10:52 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by ItsJustDave
"Cheaper just to buy everyone their own boat."
And I'll bet that little fact never entered the minds of the people who commissioned the study and are so proudly touting the results.
After all, it's not their money.
Where do I sign up for my new boat?
Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: jaxpagan
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 11:09 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by ItsJustDave
I think we need a large streetcar system running along all the major arteries -- has to hit the malls, has to hit downtown, has to hit Baymeadows. Run through the Interstate median, down Beach, down Atlantic, etc.
One advantage of the Skyway model is it might be easier to retrofit -- only need the support columns for the track, and that could take up the current medians.
But the point is you'd need to be able to board it near where you live, and get off near where you want to go. Otherwise, it's not going to pull the big ridership.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: ItsJustDave
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 11:29 a.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by jaxpagan
That, and a dedicated traffic lane. Why would I sit in traffic in a streetcar when I could do so much more comfortably in my own car? I'm sure I could get through traffic better with my own car, too. HOV lanes, with a large (can you say $500?) fine for violators and sub-speed limit drivers would help.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: jaxpagan
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 12:48 p.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by ItsJustDave
That's the value of a streetcar (or elevated tram like the Skyway), over a bus or the pseudo trolly buses they use downtown -- real streetcars never wait in traffic. When built and integrated properly into the existing infrastructure, they also don't wait for lights or get stopped by traffic congestion. They're running on their own track (locally, the elevated "streetcar" of the Skyway may be better because it run above obstacles (i.e., trains) that cause congestion.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: ItsJustDave
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 12:55 p.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by jaxpagan
I see. I thought you referring to streetcar-in-name-only trolley buses. Would not see as much use as light rail, but a lot cheaper.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: getreal
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 1:09 p.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by ItsJustDave
An argument can be made for some form of commuter rail where there is already existing track, but the idea of building a new line to serve the beach or southside would not be cost effective. It's one thing to buy right of way to widen a road for a dedicated HOV/bus lane, but to buy the amount of right of way necessary to buid a rail line to serve the densest areas of town would literally break the bank.
I've been saying for years that the best way to reduce traffic congestion is to basically do nothing. Quit widening the roads and making it easier for more cars and start designing so that alternative modes become the more convenient way to go. This can be accomplished with an earlier suggestion of converting a lane of traffic to HOV/Bus lanes (car pools, van pools, etc), giving developers fair share credits for building less parking and including transit stops in their projects, quit allowing drive thrus, stop building "communities" with one way in and one way out, encourage/incentivise business to establish flex shifts, give businesses tax breaks when their employees use transit, etc, etc.
There are lots of cheap, easy fixes available.
Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: Shipdriver54
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 2:20 p.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by ItsJustDave
Whoa, I smell another "skyway" here.
I'm betting they haven't done a traffic study to the boat embarkation point.
Kind of like the Jacksonville Vet's Memorial Arena, several good concerts, just can't get to any of the good ones on time unless you allow 2 - 3 hours to drive 10-12 miles.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: jaxpagan
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 2:51 p.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by getreal
"I've been saying for years that the best way to reduce traffic congestion is to basically do nothing. Quit widening the roads and making it easier for more cars and start designing so that alternative modes become the more convenient way to go."
Good sense in that. After cleaning up the 10-95 merger, we should cut down on roadbuilding -- especially road-widening and overpasses meant to make it easier for people from Ponte Vedra to get downtown without living in Jax proper(while trying to offset that by subsidizing condos downtown).
Adding more lanes just gets you more traffic. All you need to do is look at Orlando. You can't buy your way out of congestion with more asphalt.
That said, good alternative modes of transit generally involve some public work -- bikes need safe and extensive bike lanes/paths, rail systems need rail and terminals, etc. We need to start retrofitting now, or we'll find ourselves playing catchup later, when it will cost (and hurt) a lot more.
"An argument can be made for some form of commuter rail where there is already existing track, but the idea of building a new line to serve the beach or southside would not be cost effective. "
I don't think sharing track with CXS would work out -- the point of rail transit is reliability, and if you can't get to work everytime a long freight is parked on a section of rail, I don't think your ridership would be there.
If we bite the short-term bullet, however, and make a streetcar system (or elevated "Skyway" system) that can take people from Baymeadows to downtown, from San Marco to Tinseltown, etc, you'd see serious ridership -- no lights, no traffic jams, just a smooth, non-stop, air-conditioned ride. Granted, the closest likely station to me would be Roosevelt Square, but it'd be better than driving. At least this would be a shot at Jax being a city you don't need a car to survive in.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options
Posted by: urbanjax7816
Posted on: 5/19/08 - 9:36 p.m.
In reply to: "Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boats for commute among options" posted by jaxpagan
Jaxpagan: I don't think sharing track with CXS would work out -- the point of rail transit is reliability, and if you can't get to work everytime a long freight is parked on a section of rail, I don't think your ridership would be there.
The solution to this is to buy the track to give mass transit the priority. Doing such would have freight running in the middle of the night, while passenger trains would run during the day. This has proven to be successful on shared track lines like New Jersey's RiverLine and San Diego's Sprinter.
As for the boat study, consider that money flushed down the drain. It never made any sense from the start.
http://cgi.jacksonville.com/cgi-bin/msgboard/boards/news/view.cgi?section=31597
Its interesting that a good number of these people believe some form of rail (commuter rail, light rail, streetcar) is the right way to go, as opposed to only spending money building additional roads. Is the attitude towards mass transit changing in Jacksonville?
I was noticing the same thing. Nowhere in those responsed was BRT mentioned.
Very interesting comments. If JTA didn't study it, then someone would say, why aren't they looking at that! The last time waterborne transit was studied was in 1994, 14 years ago. I love how FBC is brought into the mix! Instead of blaming GW Bush, just blame FBC, how funny!
Notice that poster's user name... "JaxPagan"