Metro Jacksonville

The Skyway Express: Should We Keep Or Get Rid Of It?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3173864585_nC7QmfD-M.jpg)

Metro Jacksonville's Kristen Pickrell sits down with three local professionals to ponder the merits of the JTA Skyway and its future.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-skyway-express-should-we-keep-or-get-rid-of-it

Ok first, this Rod Sullivan character lost all credibility with me when I read his comment of "shut down the skyway and everyone shop on the internet instead of going downtown"... really??  And then "no comment" on all the rest of the questions. If he can't answer the interview questions, his opinions should not even have been published.

We have a system that (can) bring people to downtown from the outer lying areas and with some improvement/expansion could easily increase ridership and downtown patronage.  Sure it's imperfect and sure it uses energy and produces a bit of pollution... we're not talking about shutting down all the other transportation that does the same...  The skyway could be improved with some "greener" efforts and if it was expanded into the areas that the public outcry has been asking for, it would be much more successful.

One of the biggest downfalls that can be fixed immediately and with little effort, is to keep it operating later hours and more importantly on every single weekend. I live on the Southbank and would love the ability to hop on every weekend and head over to the Northbank/core.

Generally, electric propulsion systems are more efficient than gasoline / diesel internal combustion (It costs about $0.03 / mi to operate an electric passenger vehicle, while it costs about $0.13 / mil to operate a conventional vehicle). Increase beyond single occupancy, and the efficiency of any mode of transportation increases. Based on such rough assumptions, Jacksonville's relatively carbon-intensive electricity production results in environmental advantages relative to petroleum fuels, and transit is more efficient than single-occupancy transportation. Meanwhile, the carbon-intensity of the City's electricity has been improving and will continue to do so. And, yes, nuclear and solar are already part of this mix. (From the perspective of an electric motor, utility generated electricity is utility generated electricity -- how it is produced is irrelevant. The Skyway can certainly "run" on electricity produced from a mix of renewables, nuclear, natural gas and coal. It's doing so right now).

QuoteBM: A case of too little, too late, they will either need to go for a useful base system, streetcar conversion or quit and count their losses.

Isn't that pretty much what Tampa did with the Harbour Island People Mover?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbour_Island_People_Mover
They switched to a streetcar after removing their people mover.

^ except that the streetcar doesn't go to Harbour Island

Rod Sullivan's "shut down the skyway and everyone shop on the internet instead of going downtown" is ridiculous and kind of discredits anything he said.

I am with Ennis on getting some sort of no frils skyway stop to Riverside now, and put the big money towards light rail.

Tearing down the SkyWay or "shutting it off" are not going to solve anything. Do people still not know about the Federal grants we received for this project that would have to be returned? Also the "internet shopping" and "no comments" sections are completely discrediting.

I'm all for a street cars, but I really think we should expand the SkyWay to Brooklyn (preferably to Forest street) and to the sports district. Also, as others have mentioned, would it be more cost effective to modify the current structure to accept street car style trains? Is it the trains that cause the price to be so high or the stations? What exactly differentiates a "no frills" station from a standard station?

Quote from: marty904 on October 08, 2014, 07:56:59 AM
Ok first, this Rod Sullivan character lost all credibility with me when I read his comment of "shut down the skyway and everyone shop on the internet instead of going downtown"... really??  And then "no comment" on all the rest of the questions. If he can't answer the interview questions, his opinions should not even have been published.

+100

Is Rob Sullivan actually Know Growth/North Miami??

Let's contrast this with the TECO streetcar in it's first full year. Power usage for the streetcar system included electricity for the Ybor Station, Southern Transportation Plaza, overhead contact system (OCS) and all other streetcar stations. Average monthly power usage was 100,801 kilowatt-hours for an average monthly cost of just over $9,057. The total annual cost for power was $108,682. This covered a base service of 15 minute headways, with peak headways of 7.5 minutes. 425,614 passengers  rode with a 99.80% reliability.

This would be the approximate usage of 4 cars running 16 hour days in Jacksonville, 360 days each year. Much of the savings is in the steel wheel - streetcar coasting factor, which is by far the majority of the time, thus actual power usage is quite low.

But since JTA and the COJ is 'married' to rubber tires, including Skyway tires, were probably not going to see any improvements. Worse, the JTA's insistence on an unpopular BRT installation simply means that even if the Skyway were dismantled, those dollars will go into more buses and more highway lanes.

TIME TO PULL OUR COLLECTIVE HEADS OUT JACKSONVILLE!

How steep a grade could be used to bring streetcars down to ground level to continue out into neighborhoods?

United Streetcar states that the maximum grade is 9% (which is also the same as the Inekon and Skoda models). Some streetcars have used steeper gradient, but a good rule of thumb would be around 6% as a ruling grade. It should also be noted here that light-rail trains can generally handle up to a 12% gradient. The LRT ability strongly suggests that a streetcar could be built to the same standards. Otherwise:
Europe

· Sheffield – short section on 10% grade, and others at 9%. Articulated tramcars operate without any problem on these grades, on a daily basis. All axles on the cars are powered to enable operation on such gradients.

· Würzburg – operation on approximately 10.8% grade.

· Nordhausen – the tramway, located in this small city on the south side of the Harz hills range, negotiates a 9.8% grade in Stolberger Strasse for about 500 meters.

A wide number of European systems or routes, no longer in operation, included segments with grades at least as steep – gradients of 10, 11, and close to 12 percent. For example:

· Geneva (line now closed) – 11.8%

· Le Havre (system now closed) – 11.5%

USA

· Boston – C-Commonwealth Avenue streetcar line has a gradient of more than 8%.

· Portland – MAX LRT system has a 7% grade on the ramp leading from Second Avenue onto the Steel Bridge.

· Little Rock – River Rail streetcar line between Little Rock and North Little Rock climbs a gradient of 7.8% on the approach to the Main St. bridge over the Arkansas River.

· San Francisco – grades of 9% on the J-Church and L-Taraval streetcar lines of the Municipal Railway.

· Pittsburgh – Route 52-Arlington has a grade of 10%, routinely negotiated by modern Siemens and CAF articulated interurban-type railcars.

Also in defense of Mr. Rod Sullivan, he works at UNF with a logistic's program that is also connected with the National Academy of Railroad Sciences (NARS). As such his opinion of ANYTHING passenger rail is tainted with years, indeed over a half century of an entire industry trying to throw off a huge money loser. None of the industry-speak on the subject has much to do with rail's superiority over highways, fuel savings, ridership characteristics, ecology, etc. These attitudes are just beginning to change with the likes of the Texas-Japanese National Railways High Speed Rail Project, All Aboard Florida, Iowa Pacific and Corridor Capital, are changing much of that thinking. Industry magazines are also working to change the perception into one of opportunity rather then loss.

http://ccrail.com/wp-content/uploads/Indiana-Development-Timetable-2014-09.pdf
http://www.iowapacific.com/passenger-trains.html

QuoteTearing down the SkyWay or "shutting it off" are not going to solve anything. Do people still not know about the Federal grants we received for this project that would have to be returned? Also the "internet shopping" and "no comments" sections are completely discrediting.

Whoa, you forget, our Mayor Brown used to work in the Federal Government, he has extensive ties to leaders in Washington DC and he can "borrow" money to pay for new projects. Have no fear Jacksonville, Mayor Brown is on it!

:o

How the JTA can keep operating something that is free to people who use it, is beyond my comprehension. Someone at JTA needs to grow a pair and either grow the damn thing or shut it down and get Brown to bite the bullet, but its an election year and we need all the free things we can get for the voting public...... ;D

As a person who will be moving to the JAX area in a few short years, I can tell you that the mass-transit (lack, thereof) is the one single most disappointing aspect of this city.  We have seen the systems in place in so many places, from the outstanding MAX system in Portland, to the gargantuan MARTA in Atlanta.  The fact that a city this large, with so much going for it, has NOTHING comparable is quite a surprise.  I do understand that the city's population does grow "radially", as one of the experts mentioned, but so do these other two cities that I mentioned.  Those cities simply chose lines that were along the greatest need, and built the line there.  It starts with the airport, and goes downtown. 

I know that I'll never see a true mass-transit line (LR, mono, streetcar, etc.) in JAX my lifetime, but I would still support one.  As for the Skyway, I think the comment about building half of a bridge made the most sense.  Self-inflicted wound.

Quote from: TimmyB on October 09, 2014, 06:45:53 PM
gargantuan MARTA in Atlanta.

now there's something you don't hear (ever)yday

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 09, 2014, 08:13:11 PM

Quote from: TimmyB on October 09, 2014, 06:45:53 PM
gargantuan MARTA in Atlanta.

now there's something you don't hear (ever)yday

Now that is funny TUFSU1, That is EXACTLY what I mumbled to myself when I read these words! Wow. LOL!  ;D

I would take issue with Professor Sullivan on a number of his comments and offer an opposing point of view:

Quote- LOW RIDERSHIP

Urban mass transit systems which work,  do so in markets where the population is located in a straight line,  such as along a shoreline or river.  The population of Jacksonville is located radially around the city center.  Each mile you get away from the city center,  the farther you get away from a rail station.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/jax-density-2010_zps24585a77.jpg)
Here is that 'radial' population and I threw in various proposed mass transit routes for Skyway, Streetcar, Commuter Rail and BRT. Virtually every one of the proposed lines stay within the boundaries of a very dense area, equal to or more dense then many cities with successful fixed rail routes.


WIND POWER?

QuoteI always get asked "but what about solar and wind?"  Solar PV energy only produces power 5 hours on an average day,  and only 220 days in an average year in Jacksonville.  We have no way to store that power,  so you can't run a transportation system on solar energy.

While it is true that you probably could not run a rubber tired system on solar power at this time, the friction and resistance interaction of the tires (monorail or bus) is just too great. However it is completely possible to run a streetcar system off of solar power.

Another point, since when do we have 'no way to store that power?'' Of course there are ways and they function every day in thousands of vehicles, buses, trams, and industrial applications daily, including the entire vehicle fleet in the Magic Kingdom. BATTERIES + INDUCTION CHARGING + CAPACITORS.

If you're talking about household current (115v 60Hz AC), there is no real direct storage possible. There are a couple different ways, but most work by converting electrical energy into another form of energy.

The most direct way of storing electrical energy is in a capacitor. The electrical potential that builds up from a DC current will charge a capacitor, but over time the capacitor will slowly discharge. However if that energy is used over X number of hours, then the discharge is insignificant.

Batteries store electrical energy as chemical energy, but only DC works to charge them, so AC would have to be converted to DC, and then used to charge the battery. This is exactly what streetcars (and the Skyway) do, they take standard current and convert it to 600 volts DC, and in so doing they make it easy to work with.

You could also use DC to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen, and then use that as a fuel to power a generator. You could also develop a wind farm in Oklahoma and through the national electric grid, trade off the power you generate in exchange for whatever was needed in Jacksonville on a streetcar/Skyway or even induction charged electric or trolley buses. Calgary's Light Rail System uses the slogan: 'RIDE THE WIND,' you get one guess what powers it...

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RIDE-THE-WIND_zps91458bc8.jpg)

SOLAR POWER?

For those who are interested here is some data on running a solar powered system on rails.

Assume a 4- axle streetcar, with a 30 HP motor on each axle. This gives us 120 HP, or by using the conversion factor of 1 HP= 0.76 kW, gives us 91.2kW for maximum motoring power. Let's now add an additional 30 kW for Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning, as well as interior lighting. This brings us to an estimated maximum power demand of 141.2 kW per streetcar, or 235.3 amps at 600 volts DC, on level track. Let's round this off to 150 kW per streetcar, or 250 amps at 600 volts DC, maximum power demand. Since streetcars are largely "free coasting" once set into motion, this peak power demand will only occur when the streetcar is starting from a dead stop. Because the proposed streetcar line is relatively short in length (5-6 MILES), we can probably assume that only one streetcar at a time will be starting from a dead stop, and thereby requiring the full 250 amps at 600 volts, or 150 kW.

Taking streetcar "coasting" into account, this 150 kW power demand, represents the major portion of the streetcar line's total estimated power demand, which I put at 250 kW (416.6 amps at 600 volts DC). Its assumed that at any given time, 2 of the 3 streetcars will be drawing about 30 kW each while "coasting", the power being used by HVAC, lighting, etc., while the 3rd streetcar will be simultaneously using 150kW, for starting from a dead stop.

Since streetcars spend most of their time "free coasting" on their rails, rather than wastefully, continuously, drawing motor power when in motion, 250 kW should be enough to supply ALL of the power demand for all 3 streetcars simultaneously.

Now, lets consider where the 250 kW is coming from... This power source is Solar, using photo voltaic cells to convert sunlight directly into electricity. Since photo voltaic cells are not very efficient (about 15%), a fairly large surface area directly exposed to sunlight is required, together with a storage battery array, to produce usable quantities of electric power 24 hours a day, on demand (Though I don't foresee a Jacksonville application operating more then 16 hours daily). Typically, the photo voltaic array is located on large surface area roof tops. Good examples, are Skyway Stations and maintenance buildings, Carbarn and office buildings, rooftops. Photo voltaic arrays have also been successfully located above parking fields.

There is more than enough surface area to make the streetcar line 100% Solar Powered. Together with "regenerative brakes" used on each streetcar (converts the streetcar's braking force to electric power, which is sent back into the overhead power wire), ALL of the streetcar line's electrical power demand could be met with "clean, renewable, solar energy".

A rooftop roughly 700 feet x 150 ft = 11,666.66 Square Yards. The quantity of "insolation" received at the Earth's surface is typically 1 kW/ Square Meter. Since a Square Yard is 83.3% of a Square Meter, and photovoltaic cells are roughly 15% efficient, we can use the conversion formula of 0.833 kW/SY x 0.15 = 0.12495 kW/ SY x 11,666.66 SY = 1,457.749 kW, or 1.457 MW. This is enough electric power to simultaneously start over 6 streetcars from a dead stop- this translates to a medium sized streetcar system.

Let's now look at the energy requirements for the smallish reconstructed Jacksonville streetcar line. Assuming our "standard constant" power demand of  250 kW (3 streetcars: 1 car starting from a dead stop, and 2 cars coasting simultaneously), then 250 kW/ 0.12495 kW/SY = 2,001 Square Yards, or 18,009 ft ², or roughly 120 ft x 150 ft of photovoltaic array, converting sunlight directly into electricity.

GARBAGE?

Yes, probably the most exciting possibility of power for a Jacksonville system is the fact that the city is dotted with a number of closed landfills. Trash/garbage dumps dating from the Roman Empire are still emitting substantial amounts of methane gas. Capped off the methane is either allowed to leach into the air or becomes highly explosive if not vented. Such methane does much more damage then the exhaust emissions from burning methane. Therefore it is actually better environmentally to burn it off. Large commercial generators can run on these endless supplies of methane, in fact that Trail Ridge land fill produces enough electricity in a small demonstration project to power several thousand homes. Again, considering that streetcars do very little 'power on' operation, the power demands of electric rail are very low.

REVIEW...

We are a city that radiates its population from the core, but we radiate in specific lines which follow the historic rail/streetcar routes. Dense then and dense now, in fact more dense then many cities with successful rail.

Wind Power? Totally doable, in fact it has been done.

Solar Power? Totally doable, in fact is being done in a test location.

Garbage Power? Totally doable, methane is in the mix for power generation.

Self-Driving Automobiles, lighter, smarter, environmentally friendlier... HUH? Not so fast. If automobiles (self-driven or operator driven) could be made to run off of dirty bath water and emit only pure mountain air, we have still consumed, literally buried under asphalt the entire surface area of our 6-northeastern most states. FREEways are not FREE, they don't make money, make horrible neighbors and are environmental catastrophes in microcosm. Self driving cars may indeed be somewhere in our future, but they are not the future.

Quote from: TimmyB on October 09, 2014, 06:45:53 PMI know that I'll never see a true mass-transit line (LR, mono, streetcar, etc.) in JAX my lifetime, but I would still support one.

If you can hold out for another two decades I think you'll see it in operation.

Quote from: Rob68 on October 10, 2014, 07:58:20 AM
If we can afford a fucking 100million dollar tv we can afford the trans system a so called metropolitan needs to grow and prosper.

two problems with that theory:

1. The video boards weren't $100 million....the entire renovation cost $63 million and I'm betting the two boards were maybe half of that cost

2. In heavy transit speak, $100 million would build about 1 mile of metro....2 miles of skyway, 3-5 miles of light rail, or 8-10 miles of a no-frills streetcar system.

I'm intrigued with the concept of transforming the Skyway into streetcar, opposed to a separate streetcar system.

Quote from: I-10east on October 10, 2014, 09:14:31 AM
I'm intrigued with the concept of transforming the Skyway into streetcar, opposed to a separate streetcar system.

The only conceivable reason for converting the Skyway to streetcar is so that you could tie it into a larger city-wide streetcar system. Without the system to tie into, throwing that money at the existing Skyway would make mass transit in this city even less popular. You would have to build up the streetcar system before it made any sense to convert the skyway.

^^^That's what I mean...

Quote from: PeeJayEss on October 10, 2014, 09:38:03 AM

Quote from: I-10east on October 10, 2014, 09:14:31 AM
I'm intrigued with the concept of transforming the Skyway into streetcar, opposed to a separate streetcar system.

The only conceivable reason for converting the Skyway to streetcar is so that you could tie it into a larger city-wide streetcar system. Without the system to tie into, throwing that money at the existing Skyway would make mass transit in this city even less popular. You would have to build up the streetcar system before it made any sense to convert the skyway.

You convert to streetcar because your future extensions would cost as little as 1/10th the cost of extending the current Skyway. You don't 'build up the streetcar first' you build streetcar so you can aford to build it up!

^^^I gotcha. Convert the Skyway into streetcar, then expand from there. I misread PJE's take about transforming the Skyway afterwards. 

FWIW, the Atlanta MARTA has over 47 miles of rail line; Jacksonville has 2.5.  I would say "gargantuan" was appropriate, but I can use words with far fewer syllables, if it helps you.  :D

Maximus, I hope you are right.  I plan on living several decades after my retirement, and it would be nice to see it come about.  (Hoping you weren't being facetious, here!)

Quote from: TimmyB on October 10, 2014, 08:21:14 PM
FWIW, the Atlanta MARTA has over 47 miles of rail line; Jacksonville has 2.5.  I would say "gargantuan" was appropriate, but I can use words with far fewer syllables, if it helps you.  :D

please do...and while you're at it, how does the 47 miles compare with heavy rail systems in DC, Boston, NY, Philly, Chicago, and San Fran...of, if you'd rather stick with Atlants, how many miles long is the Perimeter (I-285)?

Atlanta should have a system much larger than Jacksonville. Here's their 2013 Metropolitan Area population estimates, according to the US Census Bureau:

Atlanta: 5,522,942
Jacksonville: 1,394,624   

Places like Atlanta, Miami, and even Charlotte now (I just realized Charlotte's MSA has caught and passed Orlando's) are in a different tier.  Here's a couple of cities in Jacksonville's range:

Milwaukee: 1,569,659
Memphis: 1,341,746
Oklahoma City: 1,319,677
Louisville: 1,262,261

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_of_the_United_States

Okay Lake, I'll bite on that one. By that standard we are just over 25% of Atlanta's size and should have 11.86797 miles of rail on the ground and operating, and another 1-2 in the final study/grant stages.

Then you have rapidly developing cities such as Tucson -  Metro population 996,544

Last month, Tucson, Ariz.'s Sun Link fleet (shown above)joined the U.S. streetcar ranks, putting to rest any insistence that U.S. streetcar growth is a fluke. And as 2014 comes to a close, expect to add Washington, D.C., and Atlanta to the growing U.S. streetcar list.

Simultaneously, additions, build-outs, and car orders involving bigger-brother mode light rail transit continue apace. St. Paul, Minn., added its Central Corridor Line to the Twin Cities mix last June; Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) extends its Orange Line to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport this month. Siemens last month landed a contract for 261 LRVs sought by San Francisco Metropolitan Transit Agency.


Here are a few samples of what we should already have:

From downtown to NAS Jax is exactly 11.1 miles.
From Southpoint Bl to Gateway Plaza 11.3
From Moncrief at Myrtle to Regency Square via Myrtle-Bay-Newnan-Arlington Expy. 11.4 miles
From San Marco to Dunn Av (Highland Sq) 11.2 via Main
From Myrtle Av at Moncrief to Philips at Bay Meadows via Acosta/Bay/Myrtle 11.5 miles
From Beaver at Cassatt to Everbank Field via Beaver-Myrtle-Bay 6.1 & 8Th at Main to Beach at Spring Park Rd 5.5 = 11.6