Jacksonville Food Trucks: New Legislation is Needed
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-9sWXvh8/0/M/lulu-food-truck-fire-houston-M.jpg)
The proposed food truck legislation is being touted as a success. In this op-ed, Arash Kamiar writes why he thinks the legislation is a significant failure and outlines at least six policy initiatives food truckers should want to see implemented.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-sep-jacksonville-food-trucks-new-legislation-is-needed
The ordinance in question has been enacted by City Council. I guess it will be law shortly unless the Mayor vetoes it. I suspect that is not likely. It is a bad ordinance powered by money and influence that the food truck people obviously did not have. The language is purposefully misleading and attempts at seeming to be good for the food trucks while all but insuring their failure. Which I wonder is not the real point of this. By insuring the failure of new ideas, do they not insure the continuation of the Status Quo? Are not people getting richer off the Status Quo? Why then would our established politicians and older leadership want forward progress?
Anybody know who voted for/against the bill? I had no luck searching the COJ website.
We are from the government, we are here to help you.....
If you cant serve better food out of a kitchen then what is being cooked up in a truck, youve got your own set of problems you need to deal with. Geez...
Quote from: strider on September 05, 2014, 08:11:50 AM
The ordinance in question has been enacted by City Council. I guess it will be law shortly unless the Mayor vetoes it. I suspect that is not likely. It is a bad ordinance powered by money and influence that the food truck people obviously did not have. The language is purposefully misleading and attempts at seeming to be good for the food trucks while all but insuring their failure. Which I wonder is not the real point of this. By insuring the failure of new ideas, do they not insure the continuation of the Status Quo? Are not people getting richer off the Status Quo? Why then would our established politicians and older leadership want forward progress?
+1
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
@ryeryerocco, is "JFT" Jax Truckies?
Quote from: TheCat on September 05, 2014, 01:52:16 PM
@ryeryerocco, is "JFT" Jax Truckies?
no, JFT is Jacksonville Food Trucks and you have to pay dues and they take a percentage of sales from what I saw on the membership packet. Jax Truckies is 100% free. They promote all trucks in Jax. You just have to have all of your licensing/insurance up to date.
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
You're correct, this city is brutal for small business. Odd for a mayor who constantly preaches job growth and small government...
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
You're correct, this city is brutal for small business. Odd for a mayor who constantly preaches job growth and small government...
The contention that this city is "brutal for small business" is interesting.
The other suggestion that "this city is bad for small business" is also interesting.
The latter obviously refers to the FT issue. Leaving the FT issue aside, would you suggest that the "city is bad for small business"? If so, how so? Of course, it is possible that, outside of the FT issue, you might not believe the general statement about this city is true ... which is understandable.
My reason for asking is that I've been in business in this city for almost forty years and cannot remember any condition or requirement from the city that would cause me to make the general statement ... "this city is bad for small business".
Ron- anytime a city regulates business, that's bad for business.
Quote from: ronchamblin on September 05, 2014, 11:44:32 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
You're correct, this city is brutal for small business. Odd for a mayor who constantly preaches job growth and small government...
The contention that this city is "brutal for small business" is interesting.
The other suggestion that "this city is bad for small business" is also interesting.
The latter obviously refers to the FT issue. Leaving the FT issue aside, would you suggest that the "city is bad for small business"? If so, how so? Of course, it is possible that, outside of the FT issue, you might not believe the general statement about this city is true ... which is understandable.
My reason for asking is that I've been in business in this city for almost forty years and cannot remember any condition or requirement from the city that would cause me to make the general statement ... "this city is bad for small business".
The way they've treated small business owners with dart raids for no reason, re-zoning them out of existence, code enforcement harassment, and then the way they've treated pretty much every restaurant that's tried to open up in riverside lately to name a few things, has given me that impression.
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 06, 2014, 02:38:14 AM
Ron- anytime a city regulates business, that's bad for business.
I have to work today, but for now ... until insomnia strikes at 2:00 a.m., I will only suggest that the statement ... "Anytime a city regulates business, that's bad for business." ... is not a true statement. There are indeed occasions when a city should ... must ... regulate.
Forgive me please for my opinion, as it is not aligned with yours. Our freedom to express our opinions on MJ is why I enjoy MJ ... and why it is such a wonderful platform for discussion in our city.
IMO
There is no ROI with them. When you have an organization like Jax Truckies promoting the trucks, locations and events for free.
Why would anyone not only pay a membership fee but also give up a percentage of their sales?
They are sealing their fate today by aligning itself with the big boys in the fight with craft brewery's.
In the long run we will see, but their choice has been made.
Quote from: ronchamblin on September 06, 2014, 08:49:56 AM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 06, 2014, 02:38:14 AM
Ron- anytime a city regulates business, that's bad for business.
I have to work today, but for now ... until insomnia strikes at 2:00 a.m., I will only suggest that the statement ... "Anytime a city regulates business, that's bad for business." ... is not a true statement. There are indeed occasions when a city should ... must ... regulate.
Forgive me please for my opinion, as it is not aligned with yours. Our freedom to express our opinions on MJ is why I enjoy MJ ... and why it is such a wonderful platform for discussion in our city.
The same can be said of the Waterways in our Downtown. Does anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys? Love MJ.
Quote from: ronchamblin on September 05, 2014, 11:44:32 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
You're correct, this city is brutal for small business. Odd for a mayor who constantly preaches job growth and small government...
The contention that this city is "brutal for small business" is interesting.
The other suggestion that "this city is bad for small business" is also interesting.
The latter obviously refers to the FT issue. Leaving the FT issue aside, would you suggest that the "city is bad for small business"? If so, how so? Of course, it is possible that, outside of the FT issue, you might not believe the general statement about this city is true ... which is understandable.
My reason for asking is that I've been in business in this city for almost forty years and cannot remember any condition or requirement from the city that would cause me to make the general statement ... "this city is bad for small business".
It is not so much that the city itself is "brutal" or "bad" for small business, but it is certainly prone to side with big business or any business or special interest that can feed the political machine enough to gain favoritism. The disregard for the required transparency in our city government, the disregard for the very rights of it's citizens when it is more convenient for the city to do so or the city is asked to do so by a special interest, the unethical way it writes it's laws and presents them as seen recently in the Blight Ordinance and the Food Truck ordinance; all of these things do not make Jacksonville friendly to small business but rather only those with money or power. Or who are quick to adopt that established "Company Line".
When our elected politicians have laws written that say the opposite of what they state for the record, when the City claims to be all inclusive and yet sides consistently with those that discriminate; maybe the right way to say it is not that the city is bad for small business, it is more appropriate to say it is just bad.
As to whether the city should or should not regulate a business type? Regulation is seen as a requirement to insure fairness and ethical behavior. However, once a city gives in to special interests and ethics and fairness are no longer the goal, then perhaps the city itself has given up the right to regulate that business in any way.
In this case, I suspect that the food trucks thought they were going to be able to operate in sensible areas of the city and compete with each other and also other types of food service providers in a fair and ethical way. As it turns out, they were fooled and they got, for the most part, the opposite of fair. I, for one, believe the city, by this behavior, gave up it's right to regulate the food trucks in any way, short of true public safety/ health concerns of course. How to fix this issue is the big problem now. I suppose that the ordinance will just often not be enforced so that food trucks will remain in some of the areas they are now. However, if the right person makes a complaint, look for the ordinance to be fully enforced and you may be saying goodbye to your favorite food truck location. Perhaps a smart individual will create food truck parking zones in various areas with CN zoning or even go ahead and get that exception if they can. What I have trouble believing is the our city will care enough to fix it.
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/stinky.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/sheclown2/media/stinky.jpg.html)
something stinks and it ain't the cabbage
This bill is anti-consumer. They are taking choices away from us. Competition is the consumers friend. It improves quality and lowers price. Businesses that cannot exist and compete without regulation should fail. That's the beauty of a free market.
Quote from: ronchamblin on September 05, 2014, 11:44:32 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 05, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
You're correct, this city is brutal for small business. Odd for a mayor who constantly preaches job growth and small government...
The contention that this city is "brutal for small business" is interesting.
The other suggestion that "this city is bad for small business" is also interesting.
The latter obviously refers to the FT issue. Leaving the FT issue aside, would you suggest that the "city is bad for small business"? If so, how so? Of course, it is possible that, outside of the FT issue, you might not believe the general statement about this city is true ... which is understandable.
My reason for asking is that I've been in business in this city for almost forty years and cannot remember any condition or requirement from the city that would cause me to make the general statement ... "this city is bad for small business".
Friend Ron, I'm sure that in the case of your business and experience this is true, but let us never forget that this is the same city council that waved its hand over the crowd in the mobility plan hearings and said, 'You don't have to listen to this noise!'
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
Do you know why the leader of the JFT and it seems, many other food truck owners, deemed this legislation a success?
It seems fairly clear to me that the legislation was bad for the industry...and there was zero to little uproar about the legislation from food truck owners when it was submitted. The "silence was deafening".
Quote from: TheCat on September 06, 2014, 04:00:53 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
Do you know why the leader of the JFT and it seems, many other food truck owners, deemed this legislation a success?
It seems fairly clear to me that the legislation was bad for the industry...and there was zero to little uproar about the legislation from food truck owners when it was submitted. The "silence was deafening".
Oh...you ALWAYS have a voice.
Quote: Ocklawaha
"Friend Ron, I'm sure that in the case of your business and experience this is true, but let us never forget that this is the same city council that waved its hand over the crowd in the mobility plan hearings and said, 'You don't have to listen to this noise!' "
Good point. Although I personally have never been abused or unfairly "regulated" by any city entities ... given the reality of your mention above, I must admit that there is the occasional event of excessive regulation or unfairness via the city. This is of course, unfortunate for those who are the victims.
Quote from: TheCat on September 06, 2014, 04:00:53 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
Do you know why the leader of the JFT and it seems, many other food truck owners, deemed this legislation a success?
It seems fairly clear to me that the legislation was bad for the industry...and there was zero to little uproar about the legislation from food truck owners when it was submitted. The "silence was deafening".
I do know the folks that run the JFT and I feel that they misrepresent most trucks. Some of their business practices are a little questionable. I can say for my truck, the legislation is ok. It's not good. The thing that most truck owners don't get is that once this ordinance passes it will take forever to change it in anyway.
I wish the dialogue between the city (Brown) and the trucks (JFT) was more than just those two. The city should be listening to all the trucks. If Quiznos and Subway could generate this much bark, I'm sure 80 business owners could too. Councilman Brown seems to listen to only the JFT folks. And that sucks for us.
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 07, 2014, 12:24:29 AM
Quote from: TheCat on September 06, 2014, 04:00:53 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
Do you know why the leader of the JFT and it seems, many other food truck owners, deemed this legislation a success?
It seems fairly clear to me that the legislation was bad for the industry...and there was zero to little uproar about the legislation from food truck owners when it was submitted. The "silence was deafening".
I do know the folks that run the JFT and I feel that they misrepresent most trucks. Some of their business practices are a little questionable. I can say for my truck, the legislation is ok. It's not good. The thing that most truck owners don't get is that once this ordinance passes it will take forever to change it in anyway.
I wish the dialogue between the city (Brown) and the trucks (JFT) was more than just those two. The city should be listening to all the trucks. If Quiznos and Subway could generate this much bark, I'm sure 80 business owners could too. Councilman Brown seems to listen to only the JFT folks. And that sucks for us.
I appreciate your insight and explanations. Thanks for your openness.
This situation could have been completely different. The first round of legislation from Brown was met with huge community concern...mostly because the food truckers spread the word. Even Jax truckies was silent on the matter this time around.
I don't know anything about JFT but I suspect if the other 60 trucks that were not a part of the organization spoke up this could have been stopped.
My hope is that the loop holes in this legislation will be immediately exploited. I'm still trying to figure out how the ice cream truck codes match up with the food truck legislation. Either, ice cream trucks can't go into residential neighborhoods or food trucks can (as long as they are selling a dairy item).
And, to reiterate Stephendare's point about food delivery vehicles...either food trucks have the same "rights" as a pizza delivery car or even a catering van or, papa johns can't really do business downtown (or anywhere, really). Every home needs a zoning exception to have pizza delivered to their front door.
I think the legislation technically outlaws food delivery.
^Have you spoken with the group of food truck owners who worked with the city on this piece of legislation? What's their take?
Quote from: TheCat on September 07, 2014, 01:19:24 AM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 07, 2014, 12:24:29 AM
Quote from: TheCat on September 06, 2014, 04:00:53 PM
Quote from: RyeRyeRocco on September 05, 2014, 01:30:34 PM
As a food truck owner, I attended some of these meetings. Now that the council has the draft, they are adding to it. The trucks no longer have a voice and if they do it's the leader of the JFT. A pay for play outfit that says it represents all trucks, but doesn't. (Different story for a different time). Jacksonville will protect the rights of B&Ms until they are blue in the face. We will never lead the way. This city is bad for small business. We are penalized because our business is on wheels.
Do you know why the leader of the JFT and it seems, many other food truck owners, deemed this legislation a success?
It seems fairly clear to me that the legislation was bad for the industry...and there was zero to little uproar about the legislation from food truck owners when it was submitted. The "silence was deafening".
I do know the folks that run the JFT and I feel that they misrepresent most trucks. Some of their business practices are a little questionable. I can say for my truck, the legislation is ok. It's not good. The thing that most truck owners don't get is that once this ordinance passes it will take forever to change it in anyway.
I wish the dialogue between the city (Brown) and the trucks (JFT) was more than just those two. The city should be listening to all the trucks. If Quiznos and Subway could generate this much bark, I'm sure 80 business owners could too. Councilman Brown seems to listen to only the JFT folks. And that sucks for us.
I appreciate your insight and explanations. Thanks for your openness.
This situation could have been completely different. The first round of legislation from Brown was met with huge community concern...mostly because the food truckers spread the word. Even Jax truckies was silent on the matter this time around.
I don't know anything about JFT but I suspect if the other 60 trucks that were not a part of the organization spoke up this could have been stopped.
I suspect that there was no loud roar of opposition because the creation of the legislation was not done in the dark. The first round was also met with huge community concern because Metro Jacksonville helped spread the word. However, at those meetings many in the food truck industry agreed that some sort of rules/guidelines/structure, whatever, etc. were needed and desired to work to help craft a modified legislation.
Being successful with radically altering or sinking bad/poor proposed legislation in city hall personally, strategically speaking, that would have been the best time for someone looking to blow up the process completely, to get involved and poison the ground water. As I recall, anyone who volunteered to participate in the process was given that opportunity. Also, in the future, I hope that we can continue to grow in the evolution of our own content and investigative reporting in a way that we can follow, report, and provide updates on hyperlocal public policy issues like this on a daily basis. That's probably my main goal for the future of the Metro Jacksonville because it's something that local media will never be able to achieve and if done right, can incrementally change the face of Jacksonville.
Anyway, I'd be interested to know how this legislation compares with those in peer cities with vibrant food truck scenes. It would also be interesting to get the perspective of the volunteers that did represent the food trucks in the creation of this modified legislation that appears to be going through council at the moment. With such information, a clear path on how to best move forward will materialize.
"that appears to be going through council at the moment"
I'm a bit confused. The legislation (2014 - 472) is now labeled as "enacted". Does that not mean that is has been voted on and passed by City Council and so is now only awaiting the Mayor's signature or lack of it to be law?
@Lakelander
This whole line of reform/legislation came when Councilman Brown saw a beat up truck on cinder blocks selling food in a front yard in his district. Then Jax Bch studied 26 or so cities to compare/contrast best practices. Councilman Brown was appalled that the CoJ had no legislation in place. To me, I find it very funny that Councilman Brown and Redman BOTH do not know the legality of food trucks but yet never approached the truck on cinder blocks and never called enforcement to ask about "is this truck legal?"
I was at the first 2 committee hearings and I was on business for the 3rd. The legislation that WE all put together was a step in the right direction. Councilman Brown was always in a rush "to get through this." I guess now I see why. It seems that the proposed bill keeps changing every time it goes before a different committee. Cherry Shaw is really the only person that will answer the trucks in a quick fashion. Councilman Brown; I believe, has written us off and now only speaks with one particular truck owner (my perspective).
I personally would like to see change in City Council. A younger, more vibrant council might help craft a younger, vibrant city.
And why does the bill for food trucks need 3 different sections? Special Events, Downtown and Other. I don't operate downtown because it is such a pain in the ass. I only do ArtWalk, Jaxons Night Market and Food Truck Championships. That is when the city seems to not care so much about trucks because then the city decides to understand the 4 restaurants in the core can't feed all of the people that come downtown (sarcasm). I said this at meetings and I will say this until I am blue in the Fu&^ing face.....if a Starbucks can open up next to a Panera, why can the trucks not roam free?
I run a coffee truck, would I setup on SBux property? No. Why? I am not dumb. All of those loyal drones would walk right into that SBux and right past me. At the end of the day, this is free enterprise. Let us freely go where we need too. If I want to feed a meter DT then I should be able too. If I have the permission of Tony Sleiman to setup on a property that he owns within 50 foot of another established coffee shop, I should be able too. He is the land owner and he should be able to do whatever the zoning will let him do.
I could go on and on. At the end of the day, the consumer will choose between truck or B&M. Just like at a rally, the consumer chooses which truck out of 10 to go too.
The legislation was passed 8/27 with 17 ayes: Anderson, Bishop, Boyer, Carter, Clark, Crescimbeni, Gaffney, Gulliford, Holt, Jones, Joost, Lee, Love, Lumb, Redman, Schellenberg, Yarborough and no nayes.
Any chance one of those "ayes" could be persuaded to "move to reconsider"?
</begin sarcasm font> Jacksonville has been saved! We will now have a vibrant downtown core that everyone from every corner of Jacksonville and the state of Florida will come because they will not have to worry about those nasty food trucks hawking their nasty food on the street corners of our BOLD NEW CITY OF THE SOUTH! </end sarcasm font>
Just another reason not to go downtown. I'll just keep my butt here on the South Bank because it is obvious that the city council doesn't want the downtown core to vibrant and a place to be and be seen.
This is not happening just here in Jacksonville, this is a nation wide trend. (Legislation)
http://mobile-cuisine.com/off-the-wire/new-orleans-food-trucks-fight-parking-rights/?wt=3
Also, time to head to Neptune beach next week as they will be crafting legislation for food trucks.
Basically modeled after Jax Beaches.
Quote from: Foodonwheels on September 10, 2014, 07:26:32 PM
Also, time to head to Neptune beach next week as they will be crafting legislation for food trucks.
Basically modeled after Jax Beaches.
if it's based on Jax Bch, there will be nowhere for trucks to set up as every spot would be within a certain distance of a residence. Also, site specific permits will deter trucks from even applying.
It's what the city does to say they want trucks but they really don't want trucks.
Who, in local government, is standing up for consumer choice?
(sound of crickets chirping)
Part of this problem was the food trucks pulling a "Jews for Hitler!" move and supporting the legislation that will ultimately drive most of them out of business. Whether it was misrepresented to them, or council backstabbed them, or whatever the heck else may have happened, who knows, but I don't think it's going to take long for them to regret it. What ultimately got enacted was not far off from the legislation all the original uproar was about, except it wound up passing because it appeared at least superficially that the trucks supported it. Bizarre.
RyeRyeRocco has some good points and even for being a hippie that has had a bit too much coffee and KLOB in his life-he's a smart dude.
"What ultimately got enacted was not far off from the legislation all the original uproar was about" is incorrect. Before, the original legislation banned food trucks from really just about anywhere (except floating on a barge in the river, which btw has happened before)... not counting the 50 foot rule, the CN zoning areas that food trucks would need a zoning exception for are pretty few and far between.. as referanced in the map in the editorial posted by Arash.
Is it perfect? No. Are their laws of unintended consequences some of the stakeholders didn't think through? Yes, absolutely. But painting this as some blasphemous loss for food trucks is simply an exageration.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 11, 2014, 10:29:15 AM
Part of this problem was the food trucks pulling a "Jews for Hitler!" move and supporting the legislation that will ultimately drive most of them out of business. Whether it was misrepresented to them, or council backstabbed them, or whatever the heck else may have happened, who knows, but I don't think it's going to take long for them to regret it. What ultimately got enacted was not far off from the legislation all the original uproar was about, except it wound up passing because it appeared at least superficially that the trucks supported it. Bizarre.
+1
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 10:43:59 AM
RyeRyeRocco has some good points and even for being a hippie that has had a bit too much coffee and KLOB in his life-he's a smart dude.
"What ultimately got enacted was not far off from the legislation all the original uproar was about" is incorrect. Before, the original legislation banned food trucks from really just about anywhere (except floating on a barge in the river, which btw has happened before)... not counting the 50 foot rule, the CN zoning areas that food trucks would need a zoning exception for are pretty few and far between.. as referanced in the map in the editorial posted by Arash.
Is it perfect? No. Are their laws of unintended consequences some of the stakeholders didn't think through? Yes, absolutely. But painting this as some blasphemous loss for food trucks is simply an exageration.
You are making the same mistake many here are – misreading the ordinance the way city council (I believe) intended to happen:
Read this again:
Vending areas. Mobile Food Dispensing vendors may vend food or nonalcoholic beverages from a mobile food dispensing vehicle in all zoning districts except the Commercial Neighborhood (CN) zoning district subject to the issuance of a zoning exception pursuant to the Zoning Code.
It has been clarified.
The only place food trucks can operate without a zoning exception are the Commercial Neighborhood zoning districts. Do you see those tiny purplish spots on the map?
Those are the only places where food trucks are allowed to operate but they still have to follow the codes that define, for instance, how far away from a brick and mortar restaurant they have to locate.
You read the above and thought it meant this:
Quotethe CN zoning areas that food trucks would need a zoning exception for are pretty few and far between.. as referenced in the map in the editorial posted by Arash.
It really means this:
Mobile Food Dispensing vendors may vend food or nonalcoholic beverages from a mobile food dispensing vehicle in all zoning districts ....subject to the issuance of a zoning exception pursuant to the Zoning Code....except the Commercial Neighborhood (CN) zoning district Those purple dots are the ONLY place they can be without a zoning exception.
It was indeed a "blasphemous loss for food trucks".
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 10:43:59 AM
RyeRyeRocco has some good points and even for being a hippie that has had a bit too much coffee and KLOB in his life-he's a smart dude.
"What ultimately got enacted was not far off from the legislation all the original uproar was about" is incorrect. Before, the original legislation banned food trucks from really just about anywhere (except floating on a barge in the river, which btw has happened before)... not counting the 50 foot rule, the CN zoning areas that food trucks would need a zoning exception for are pretty few and far between.. as referanced in the map in the editorial posted by Arash.
Is it perfect? No. Are their laws of unintended consequences some of the stakeholders didn't think through? Yes, absolutely. But painting this as some blasphemous loss for food trucks is simply an exageration.
Respectfully disagree, and I do this for a living...
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 11, 2014, 10:29:15 AM
Part of this problem was the food trucks pulling a "Jews for Hitler!" move and supporting the legislation that will ultimately drive most of them out of business.
really bad analogy dude
I refrained from commenting this long because it's silly arguing with people that, given the opportunity, did not get involved... yet tell you exactly how wrong you are.
Planning, GC, EOC, Neigborhoods, Code Compliance, DIA and City Council intrepret it the way I wrote. That's also backed up with exhaustive public records on the matter as every task force meeting was recorded and catalogued... along with every CC committee meeting when the bill was introduced, debated and ultimately passed by the full City Council.
BTW, a former two-time City Council president was retained to lobby in favor of the food trucks and help craft the bill.
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 11, 2014, 12:33:49 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 11, 2014, 10:29:15 AM
Part of this problem was the food trucks pulling a "Jews for Hitler!" move and supporting the legislation that will ultimately drive most of them out of business.
really bad analogy dude
Yes, really bad.
Wow, this is just getting started and we've already gotten to Hitler.
Quote from: strider on September 11, 2014, 12:03:23 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 10:43:59 AM
RyeRyeRocco has some good points and even for being a hippie that has had a bit too much coffee and KLOB in his life-he's a smart dude.
"What ultimately got enacted was not far off from the legislation all the original uproar was about" is incorrect. Before, the original legislation banned food trucks from really just about anywhere (except floating on a barge in the river, which btw has happened before)... not counting the 50 foot rule, the CN zoning areas that food trucks would need a zoning exception for are pretty few and far between.. as referanced in the map in the editorial posted by Arash.
Is it perfect? No. Are their laws of unintended consequences some of the stakeholders didn't think through? Yes, absolutely. But painting this as some blasphemous loss for food trucks is simply an exageration.
You are making the same mistake many here are – misreading the ordinance the way city council (I believe) intended to happen:
Read this again:
Vending areas. Mobile Food Dispensing vendors may vend food or nonalcoholic beverages from a mobile food dispensing vehicle in all zoning districts except the Commercial Neighborhood (CN) zoning district subject to the issuance of a zoning exception pursuant to the Zoning Code.
It has been clarified. The only place food trucks can operate without a zoning exception are the Commercial Neighborhood zoning districts.
Do you see those tiny purplish spots on the map? Those are the only places where food trucks are allowed to operate but they still have to follow the codes that define, for instance, how far away from a brick and mortar restaurant they have to locate.
You read the above and thought it meant this: Quotethe CN zoning areas that food trucks would need a zoning exception for are pretty few and far between.. as referenced in the map in the editorial posted by Arash.
It really means this: Mobile Food Dispensing vendors may vend food or nonalcoholic beverages from a mobile food dispensing vehicle in all zoning districts ....subject to the issuance of a zoning exception pursuant to the Zoning Code....except the Commercial Neighborhood (CN) zoning district
Those purple dots are the ONLY place they can be without a zoning exception.
It was indeed a "blasphemous loss for food trucks".
+1
Food Trucks, kayaks, the Waterways is just getting absolutely crushed. Just ask the Baltimore guys 2014-412.
DIA- Downtown Includes Alcohol
I'm All In
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 12:48:24 PM
I refrained from commenting this long because it's silly arguing with people that, given the opportunity, did not get involved... yet tell you exactly how wrong you are.
Planning, GC, EOC, Neigborhoods, Code Compliance, DIA and City Council intrepret it the way I wrote. That's also backed up with exhaustive public records on the matter as every task force meeting was recorded and catalogued... along with every CC committee meeting when the bill was introduced, debated and ultimately passed by the full City Council.
BTW, a former two-time City Council president was retained to lobby in favor of the food trucks and help craft the bill.
Here's what you need to do. See that the original language was stated exactly the way it is now. Then look at the amendments. They went through the trouble to clarify the Downtown language but left the statement in question alone even though the language is at the very least poorly done such that it says the opposite of what most wish to believe it does. Break down the sentence just like you would have in school. It does not say an exception is NOT needed everywhere but CN, it says an exception is needed everywhere but CN. I would quickly agree that it was a mistake, but then they clarified the Downtown stuff and left this one alone. Either everyone involved needs to learn how to make a sentence again, including Ms Shaw, or it was done at someone's request and it is what they wanted.
Here's the thing. Regardless of being done purposefully or not, it is what it is. If a truck is parked in CRO-S and no one complains, then it will all be good. If the right person gets a bad meal, how long before that truck is told to leave because the property owner did not get an exception? If nothing else, the badly written sentence allows for very selective enforcement. And what if someone decides they want a food truck on their CN land? The city could be forced to enforce the ordinance as written. All over Jax in that case. At this point, even if they call it a scriveners error of some type it takes a new ordinance moving through Council to fix it.
Like the recent blight bill where multiple council members said it was not going to effect historic structures but then it really was after all and it was obviously done on purpose, I get suspicious of anyone speaking the opposite of what is actually written. Interpretations can be changed on a whim and often are for the right people.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 11, 2014, 10:29:15 AM
Part of this problem was the food trucks pulling a "Jews for Hitler!" move and supporting the legislation that will ultimately drive most of them out of business. Whether it was misrepresented to them, or council backstabbed them, or whatever the heck else may have happened, who knows, but I don't think it's going to take long for them to regret it. What ultimately got enacted was not far off from the legislation all the original uproar was about, except it wound up passing because it appeared at least superficially that the trucks supported it. Bizarre.
I think part of what happened was the same thing that happens with every Jacksonville business niche. Food trucks wanted to control their niche.
From what I can gather some food truckers were afraid of a few food trucks messing it up for everyone...so they were willing to acquiesce where they didn't need to. Established food truckers don't want to see renegade food trucks come about that don't follow their industry's unwritten rules of engagement. If that is the case, I think it is a mistake. Food truckers should be advocating and "paving" the way for a vibrant street food scene.
In the same way that restaurants don't want a food truck next to their front doors a food truck doesn't want another food truck parked next to them when it's just a passing lunch crowd they are targeting.
Quote
In the same way that restaurants don't want a food truck next to their front doors a food truck doesn't want another food truck parked next to them when it's just a passing lunch crowd they are targeting.
This conversation is so far off reality. Amazing how history is being re-written by people that didn't even participate in very public and open proceedings.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 03:57:20 PM
Quote
In the same way that restaurants don't want a food truck next to their front doors a food truck doesn't want another food truck parked next to them when it's just a passing lunch crowd they are targeting.
This conversation is so far off reality. Amazing how history is being re-written by people that didn't even participate in very public and open proceedings.
I hope it is far off of realty.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 03:57:20 PM
This conversation is so far off reality. Amazing how history is being re-written by people that didn't even participate in very public and open proceedings.
Just so you know, I have survived a community enforcing a incorrectly written ordinance to try to shut down a bunch of legal businesses just because a few people did not like them. A scriveners error was made in the final version of the overlay when it was enacted. The meeting minutes said it was one thing but the actual passed ordinance said something else. It was "interpreted" the way the minutes said for years. Then someone in the community decided a group of business should no longer be in Springfield and realized the error and insisted that the ordinance be enforced as written. The city responded by writing up an ordinance to fix the scriveners error. When the ordinance hit City Council, it cost me 1 1/2 years of my time to fight the amended one that tried to make the error permanent and put 200 disabled people out of their homes. So do not try to say I do not know what I am talking about. This food truck ordinance is badly done and makes the plight of the food trucks subject to the whims of whomever decides they do not like them. And that is assuming that the requirement of getting an exception in all zoning codes but CN was an error. Look out if it was done purposefully by someone in that proverbial smoke filled room.
Quote from: strider on September 11, 2014, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 12:48:24 PM
I refrained from commenting this long because it's silly arguing with people that, given the opportunity, did not get involved... yet tell you exactly how wrong you are.
Planning, GC, EOC, Neigborhoods, Code Compliance, DIA and City Council intrepret it the way I wrote. That's also backed up with exhaustive public records on the matter as every task force meeting was recorded and catalogued... along with every CC committee meeting when the bill was introduced, debated and ultimately passed by the full City Council.
BTW, a former two-time City Council president was retained to lobby in favor of the food trucks and help craft the bill.
Here's what you need to do. See that the original language was stated exactly the way it is now. Then look at the amendments. They went through the trouble to clarify the Downtown language but left the statement in question alone even though the language is at the very least poorly done such that it says the opposite of what most wish to believe it does. Break down the sentence just like you would have in school. It does not say an exception is NOT needed everywhere but CN, it says an exception is needed everywhere but CN. I would quickly agree that it was a mistake, but then they clarified the Downtown stuff and left this one alone. Either everyone involved needs to learn how to make a sentence again, including Ms Shaw, or it was done at someone's request and it is what they wanted.
Here's the thing. Regardless of being done purposefully or not, it is what it is. If a truck is parked in CRO-S and no one complains, then it will all be good. If the right person gets a bad meal, how long before that truck is told to leave because the property owner did not get an exception? If nothing else, the badly written sentence allows for very selective enforcement. And what if someone decides they want a food truck on their CN land? The city could be forced to enforce the ordinance as written. All over Jax in that case. At this point, even if they call it a scriveners error of some type it takes a new ordinance moving through Council to fix it.
Like the recent blight bill where multiple council members said it was not going to effect historic structures but then it really was after all and it was obviously done on purpose, I get suspicious of anyone speaking the opposite of what is actually written. Interpretations can be changed on a whim and often are for the right people.
+1
Watch how this applies to the Waterways!
2014-305
2014-190
2014-412-Withdrawn
2014-560
2013-384-Withdrawn
There are a dozen more. The Public Trust just destroyed when it comes to the Waterways.
Palms Fish Camp- Sign me up! Anyone put me on any list because this is happening again.
Put me down as a taxpayer subsidized millionaire that lives out of county.
Visit Jacksonville!
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 12:53:40 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 11, 2014, 12:33:49 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 11, 2014, 10:29:15 AM
Part of this problem was the food trucks pulling a "Jews for Hitler!" move and supporting the legislation that will ultimately drive most of them out of business.
really bad analogy dude
Yes, really bad.
Except that's a real thing, not fiction, fellas. It actually happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
Clearly some people around here could stand to learn from the historical lesson.
And pardon me, but the analogy seems spot-on.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 11, 2014, 03:57:20 PM
Quote
In the same way that restaurants don't want a food truck next to their front doors a food truck doesn't want another food truck parked next to them when it's just a passing lunch crowd they are targeting.
This conversation is so far off reality. Amazing how history is being re-written by people that didn't even participate in very public and open proceedings.
That doesn't mean we can't read the ordinance for ourselves, Field.
This isn't really subject to debate, it says what it says, in black and white. The difference between you and me, and you and Strider for that matter, is that I know better than to care about whatever COJ says their intent was. None of that is going to matter, at the end of the day you're stuck with what's reduced to writing.
FTR: I am a hippie
2xFTR: I own no KLoB sticker
And another thing: KLoB's sax player is a buddy of mine
So, how is the food truck industry doing in Jacksonville?
I don't really see them around anymore and there's definitely less buzz. Is it just me? Is anyone else seeing them around? Are there more popping up? or, are more dying down?
From my vantage point the legislation seems to have done its job to ensure the downtown quizno's never closes. :-\
From what I can tell, there's more food trucks than ever. You can get daily updates on their locations here: https://www.facebook.com/jaxtruckies
There are more food trucks than ever in Jax. About a dozen more have opened in the 1st quarter of 2015.
There are seven places trucks setup downtown (eight if you consider Brooklyn as being downtown), including the JSO headquarters.
^^ Absolutely. There's no question that food trucks are quite prevalent, and of high quality, and are to be found most everywhere in the city. I'm quite pleased with the way it has gone since the beginnings of the organizational push to encourage these entrepreneurs.
Rock on, food trucks!
Quote from: TheCat on April 21, 2015, 11:09:24 PM
I don't really see them around anymore and there's definitely less buzz. Is it just me?
Yes, lol.
When food trucks becomes part of your regular routine, I guess there's about as much buzz generated as going anywhere else to eat.
Quote from: fieldafm on April 22, 2015, 05:37:30 AM
There are more food trucks than ever in Jax. About a dozen more have opened in the 1st quarter of 2015.
There are seven places trucks setup downtown (eight if you consider Brooklyn as being downtown), including the JSO headquarters.
that's great.
Are you keeping track of trucks that have launched (or closed) ? Those would be interesting numbers to see if you have them on hand.
what are your thoughts, eight months later, on the legislation that passed back in September 2014?