How Parking Spaces Are Eating Our Cities Alive
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1783912957_zxkzf4W-M.jpg)
A brief but effective production from Streetfilms and transportation nonprofit ITDP about how parking spaces are eating our cities alive. Is Jacksonville paying attention?
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-sep-how-parking-spaces-are-eating-our-cities-alive
I get that the urban surface lots are unwanted but damn, they are even against parking garages? This is VERY over to top sensationalized hippyism IMO. Just go on and deem Henry Ford Satan himself, geesh Streetfilms... They are even bashing Marina City in Chicago, a good example of what urban parking with residential should be like. There's a fine line between parking in a convenient available space (of any fashion) relying on a filthy crime-ridden hellhole of a transit system (like many in the US) and walking a 1/2 mile from the available parking space like in many big cities. That exaggerated coughing though LOL.
Stopped watching after $40,000 per parking space....
Good video...was definitely not over-sensationalized.
Marina City is iconic, but not what I would consider optimal from a design standpoint.
$40K/space may not apply to Jacksonville, but does apply to many cities.
Good video. I particularly liked the part about framing the street frontage. I think they should have delved into that a bit further as everyone can see how that makes the city more attractive and usable while still providing parking. With the advent of self driving cars the dynamic is likely to change again we need to be aware of as we design for tomorrow. Will more people use cars if they are more convenient? Will we need more parking for increased use or less because the car drops us off and is sent away to free parking hubs that serve cities? Will less people own cars if taxis become cheaper because there is no driver to pay?
Quote from: I-10east on September 03, 2014, 11:56:57 PM
relying on a filthy crime-ridden hellhole of a transit system (like many in the US)
Ever think those transit systems are in a bad state because people like yourself refuse to rely on them?
^
+1
I have ridden a good portion of the transit systems nyc, detroit, boston, miami and I am sorry they are not hell holes.
You want to see hell hole transit take a rural bus in india.
As it relates to Jacksonville....its all about collective will. If no one thinks vacant lots, garages and paved lots are an issue, then all the videos and screaming in the world won't mean a whole lot.
My objection is that we subsidize the garage owners in the core, especially around the sports complex.
If that dough were used to fund improved transit, then you wouldn't need as many garages.
Stop the subsidies of garages, increase core densities and use the dough to make transit sustainable.
Comes down to will.
Quote from: Gamblor on September 04, 2014, 10:52:33 AM
Ever think those transit systems are in a bad state because people like yourself refuse to rely on them?
Yup that's the answer, MORE people will get the transit authorities to care, yeah okay...
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2014, 03:42:20 PM
Quote from: Gamblor on September 04, 2014, 10:52:33 AM
Ever think those transit systems are in a bad state because people like yourself refuse to rely on them?
Yup that's the answer, MORE people will get the transit authorities to care, yeah okay...
MORE use means revenue to maintain/improve quality. Use makes it easier to influence decision makers and elites to fund assets that are need. Also diverse populations using transit means more likely build up of business around stations/junctions. I could continue...
^^^I use transit very sparingly, and only when I need to; Otherwise I'm mostly in my gasoline propelled car. Of course that makes me the Devil here in liberal land, whatever... It's funny that the far left always preach diversity, melting pot etc, but the minute you're not a clone of a vegan millennial transit/bike relying hipster 'you are the problem'.
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2014, 04:02:46 PM
^^^I use transit very sparingly, and only when I need to; Otherwise I'm mostly in my gasoline propelled car. Of course that makes me the Devil here in liberal land, whatever... It's funny that the far left always preach diversity, melting pot etc, but the minute you're not a clone of a vegan millennial transit/bike relying hipster 'you are the problem'.
Wasn't trying to say you're the problem or some devil. I was trying to get at the point that in many places with great transit systems, they are melting pots which propels them to higher levels. For example many of the stations in the UK you will find a diverse range of business thriving from the diverse group of people, whether that is different social groups or economic groups. Transit becomes a place where community can come face to face with one another. And lastly not to sound insulting, but if you think this is liberal land, you don't know liberal. Trust me. I spent a decade between Vermont and SF. This is no where close.
^^^
Quote from: Gamblor on September 04, 2014, 04:16:41 PM
And lastly not to sound insulting, but if you think this is liberal land, you don't know liberal. Trust me. I spent a decade between Vermont and SF. This is no where close.
I was referring to MJ not Jax. I have no problem with MJ leaning left with most issues (opposed to moderate) but it does get really extreme sometimes.
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2014, 04:23:34 PM
I was referring to MJ not Jax. I have no problem with MJ leaning left with most issues (opposed to moderate) but it does get really extreme sometimes.
I was referring to MJ.... leaning left I think is an accurate assessment. But I think it isn't too far from center with the diverse group of posters here
^^^It doesn't get more liberal than that video above. Just because there's a smattering of moderates and conservatives on here, that doesn't mean that they aren't vastly overshadowed. This is for another thread and another day since I'm going way offcourse from the topic...
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2014, 04:35:58 PM
^^^It doesn't get more liberal than that video above. Just because there's a smattering of moderates and conservatives on here, that doesn't mean that they aren't vastly overshadowed. This is for another thread and another day since I'm going way offcourse from the topic...
Well let me reel you back, and get to some good conversation. This question isn't a disagreement, but more a lead. Can you tell me what makes the the video above so liberal? I'm really curious because in different places I have heard many of the concepts in it described as conservative or discussed in a positive manner by conservatives. I'm truly curious what the points are that you don't like or think are too extreme.
Quote from: Gamblor on September 04, 2014, 04:28:52 PM
I was referring to MJ.... leaning left I think is an accurate assessment. But I think it isn't too far from center with the diverse group of posters here
I agree. I'll say this since you added to the comment. I think typically that moderates are pretty low key on here, but the far left is usually very impassioned, beating the drum over and over again with particular issues etc.
Quote from: Gamblor on September 04, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Well let me reel you back, and get to some good conversation. This question isn't a disagreement, but more a lead. Can you tell me what makes the the video above so liberal?
Anti-parking garages, and very anti car. I'm not even saying that Jax need anymore parking garages downtown right now, but atleast garages are appropriate in an urban setting opposed to surface lots.
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2014, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: Gamblor on September 04, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Well let me reel you back, and get to some good conversation. This question isn't a disagreement, but more a lead. Can you tell me what makes the the video above so liberal?
Anti-parking garages, and very anti car. I'm not even saying that Jax need anymore parking garages downtown right now, but atleast garages are appropriate in an urban setting opposed to surface lots.
Hmm... I didn't really see it as anti-parking garages, I saw it as pointing out that there is a cost to them, especially in tight confines of an urban environment and in that they can make having a solid transportation network more difficult. Although I can see how maybe you could come away with that. I did think it was pro-effective transit.
Out of curiousity, if you have the time, just so I can understand where your coming from better, would you mind watching this similar video by British Conservative Mayor of London Borris Johnson and tell me what you think
https://www.youtube.com/v/watch?v=86zTQ_k_xcI
I think the video makes the point rather affectively about the negative impact that cars and parking have had on our cities. It is time we weaned ourselves off our over-reliance on cars and focus more on public transit. If we took a fraction of the tax dollars we spend subsidizing auto travel (roadways) and divert it to public transportation, we could greatly improve the quality of our downtown environment and improve our quality of life as well.
The $40K per space reference in the video is certainly not applicable to Jax but $20-23K per space is not uncommon for a newly constructed downtown parking garage. Even if you don't buy the argument about quality of life, think of how much burden this expense places on a developer who wants to develop a property downtown, especially if that parking garage is unnecessary as were some mentioned in the video.
In Jax, we have plenty of parking spaces downtown currently. In most cases, there is no need to add more parking, although admittedly parking demand for residential uses is driven not by zoning codes (the downtown overlay does not require parking) but by market demand that still exists in Jax due to lack of public infrastructure. If we could improve our wayfinding and create a better system of sharing parking, we could better utilize the resource that already exists rather than spend more $$ unnecessarily. Accomplishing this would be a huge catalyst to help our downtown redevelop.
Quote from: JaxArchitect on September 04, 2014, 05:12:24 PM
I think the video makes the point rather affectively about the negative impact that cars and parking have had on our cities. It is time we weaned ourselves off our over-reliance on cars and focus more on public transit. If we took a fraction of the tax dollars we spend subsidizing auto travel (roadways) and divert it to public transportation, we could greatly improve the quality of our downtown environment and improve our quality of life as well.
The $40K per space reference in the video is certainly not applicable to Jax but $20-23K per space is not uncommon for a newly constructed downtown parking garage. Even if you don't buy the argument about quality of life, think of how much burden this expense places on a developer who wants to develop a property downtown, especially if that parking garage is unnecessary as were some mentioned in the video.
In Jax, we have plenty of parking spaces downtown currently. In most cases, there is no need to add more parking, although admittedly parking demand for residential uses is driven not by zoning codes (the downtown overlay does not require parking) but by market demand that still exists in Jax due to lack of public infrastructure. If we could improve our wayfinding and create a better system of sharing parking, we could better utilize the resource that already exists rather than spend more $$ unnecessarily. Accomplishing this would be a huge catalyst to help our downtown redevelop.
That sounds way to substainable... it'll never fly :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
^^^I saw the video Gamblor. Boris Johnson was talking very liberal with the vision of London, and he's a Conservative. Although politics over there are different across the pond in contrast to the US. I think that the 'bicycle highways' are way over the top, but I'm sure that many on here will say it's the way to go, admirable etc.
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2014, 05:22:26 PM
^^^I saw the video Gamblor. Boris Johnson was talking very liberal with the vision of London, and he's a Conservative. Although politics over there are different across the pond in contrast to the US. I think that the 'bicycle highways' are way over the top, but I'm sure that many on here will say it's the way to go, admirable etc.
I think Borris is confronted by different circumstances than we are, and if I may, allow me explain his "conservative" point of view... Bicycle highways will heavily ease congestion as bikes are everywhere (and also help with safety for bikers), but Crossrail is genius especially when paired with the impacts of the 5-year plan from Cameron. I love how it will take 2-3 hour rail commutes and turn them into 45min-1hour. This is is important as the 5-year plan opened up building on green fields for new housing, which many areas around London were major parts of. These two paired together will drastically help fix the one of the UKs greatest problems, finding reasonably priced housing in a reasonable distance from the commercial center. Also the savings which citizens garner should boost the economy as people will have more in there pockets to spend. The impact of saving citizens money and growing business/municipalities would be where he says he is conservative.
You're in rare form today, I-10. I sometimes think you just type to hear the sound of your keyboard.
Its pretty clear you've never spent any significant amount of time in many cities that do transit & pedestrian infrastructure right. You know how I know? Because you're basing everything you say around just the stuff you see around here. Transit being awful & mostly a handout for poor people, only hippies (that you see them as anyway) that hang out in places like Riverside talk about decent transit/walkable/bikeable environments, etc. Trust me, it isn't all hippie liberal douche bags like you think. Everyone uses these things in major cities. Ev-ery-one. Got it? The reason they use it is because its easier than driving in most cases, readily available, reliable & cheaper (on all fronts). In Jax? No, these all suck here. Here its much easier to just drive, but at a higher cost overall for everyone. What choice do we have? Not much of one, and its probably like that for a reason.
I know this won't sway your warped opinion of "only real Americans drive cars, live in the burbs, etc" thing you seem to have going, but its worth a shot. Maybe live abroad, travel around for a while, gain some perspective & see if it removes the stick outta your butt & humbles you a bit. THEN come back & comment.
Cars are freedom and we need a place to park them. We don't want to sit and wait for the next bus in bad weather or when our child is sick. We want to jump in our car and go. No other form of transportation can compete with that freedom. Without parking lots, you'll have even less people downtown.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on September 04, 2014, 08:44:04 PM
Cars are freedom and we need a place to park them. We don't want to sit and wait for the next bus in bad weather or when our child is sick. We want to jump in our car and go. No other form of transportation can compete with that freedom. Without parking lots, you'll have even less people downtown.
When the price of freedom hits 5 bucks a gal in jax, lets see how that claim that no other form of transportation can compete holds up 8)
Quote from: Redbaron616 on September 04, 2014, 08:44:04 PM
Without parking lots, you'll have even less people downtown.
Seems like this discussion is going on in two separate threads. My take on parking v/s perception.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 04, 2014, 09:58:51 PM
I'm not meaning to come across huffy, it's just a conversation that I've had so many times that I'm convinced it's just common sense and I don't understand why so few people can comprehend it
Here's one of the examples I used with a friend of mine.
She and I went to Town Center and this was the generic path we took:
(http://i.imgur.com/nqF19Rj.png)
The next day, we went to Mellow Mushroom and she complained about the walk...
(http://i.imgur.com/tahdkcj.png)
And if I were to suggest the same scenario that I discussed, I would probably get a bunch of flak about not being able to park nearby...
(http://i.imgur.com/BnPFDl4.png)
There's plenty of parking garages that are closer, but I wanted to choose a path that gives a multitude of option. Even walking past the car to grab a drink at Burro or a bite at Chomp Chomp.
Numbers don't lie. It's about perception. And until people get over the fact that parking a couple of streets away is the EXACT SAME THING as parking in the middle of a typical department store surface lot, then we'll continue having this discussion.
Note to Mods: I realize this is completely off topic, but it's a discussion that we've had here many times and is kind of relevant to make a point to ssky. Move if needed.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on September 04, 2014, 08:44:04 PM
Cars are freedom
I couldn't disagree more. Freedom is not having to drive everywhere, not spending money on gas, insurance, upkeep. True freedom is not having a yoke around your neck called an automobile.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on September 04, 2014, 08:44:04 PM
Cars are freedom and we need a place to park them. We don't want to sit and wait for the next bus in bad weather or when our child is sick. We want to jump in our car and go. No other form of transportation can compete with that freedom. Without parking lots, you'll have even less people downtown.
Actually, freedom involves choice. You have no choice BUT to drive here. How exactly is that freedom?
Quote from: Redbaron616 on September 04, 2014, 08:44:04 PM
Cars are freedom and we need a place to park them. We don't want to sit and wait for the next bus in bad weather or when our child is sick. We want to jump in our car and go. No other form of transportation can compete with that freedom. Without parking lots, you'll have even less people downtown.
In an environment built for people walking is freedom.
When the heat index is over 100, we have one of our afternoon severe thunderstorms, or even when we have those rare days when it is below freezing in the morning, waiting for public transit is not enjoyable. It is also tough being tied to a schedule having to try to get done so you can go catch a bus. Here in Jacksonville, there is too much suburban area for public transit to be particularly great. If I rode the bus I couldn't stop by the store in the evening when we were out of milk simply because the store is too far from my house, and I live in Old Arlington.
A car is a convenience and it does give you additional freedom to do things like go to the doctor in the middle of the day, stop by the store on the way home, or even leave work to pick up a sick child from school.
^^ It doesn't have to be either/or. Reality both have pros and cons, but a proper combination in an "and" solution would strike a good balance, opening up the diverse things this city has to offer in a way that brings this spread out community closer together.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but why doesn't everyone just move away? To like, San Francisco, or Seattle, or just some place that doesn't suffer from vapid, banal, visionless local leadership? Yeah, places with 'nice things' have the price of admission to go with them, but if its in anybody's means and interest to, then why not relocate?
I mostly lurk here and constantly see the same issues raised that my friends and neighbors gripe about (many of whom have moved away). My question isn't meant to be confrontational - indeed, I too feel that the solution to this city is no solution and will be packing my bags as soon as my lease is up. It's just bizarre to me to see and hear this from every angle - between here, /r/Jacksonville and a lot of anecdotal firsthand data.
In just the past year, 2/3 of my apartment building in Riverside has turned over to people moving to far-flung places like Denver, Boston, Portland, etc. And it's always the same answer: Jacksonville is a walking corpse of a city. As though it's toxic. That attitude is a major drag on people that actually like it here, and I count myself as somebody who really liked it here for awhile. But we spend so much time wishing for this or that, while the place crumbles. It's depressing. But you know what? Everyone I know who's moved seems to be all the happier for it. Maybe the discussion needs to be about an exit strategy...
And to the guy that said automobiles represent freedom : really? So traffic, insurance, gas prices (that dictate whether you can even afford to drive), tolls, fees represent freedom then? If that's the price of freedom, no thank you.
Quote from Urban Planner Jeff Speck ".....the automobile has been given free rein to distort American cities and lives. Long gone are the days when automobiles expanded possibility and choice for the majority of Americans. Now, thanks to its ever-increasing demands for space, speed, and time, the car has reshaped American landscape and lifestyles around its own needs. It is an instrument of freedom that has enslaved us."
"...Since the 1970s, the number of roads in America has roughly doubled, which has led to a corresponding increase in the amount of money that the average American spends on transportation, from 10% to 20% of all income earned. Remarkably, the typical poor American family spends 40 percent of its income on transportation—considerably more than on housing." There's no way to justify this as a sustainable trend.
No one would expect to go back to the days without interstates or eliminate cars altogether, however, a reasonable person would conclude that we have to invest more wisely moving forward by giving people more options (and freedom) by putting more emphasis on public transportation, thereby lessening the burden of personal time and money that has been created by our over-reliance on automobiles and roads.
For more info, see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wai4ub90stQ