Baltimore's Inner Harbor vs. Jacksonville's Riverfront
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3424976819_2pJbRX7-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville's Ennis Davis explains why Baltimore has found success with the revitalization of their Inner Harbor and discusses the simple challenge Jacksonville's leaders must overcome if they want a similar result along the St. Johns River.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-aug-baltimores-inner-harbor-vs-jacksonvilles-riverfront
Nothing about the new Baltimore casino?
(http://www.bmoremedia.com/galleries/Features/2013/ISSUE_164/horseshoecasino.jpg)
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-bz-horseshoe-casino-opens-20140826,0,47252.story
Hmm. Another punch in the gut for Atlantic City.
I remember in the early-to-mid 80s when the McCormick spice factory was still there as another vestige of the industrial past.
The Power Plant is a success now, but the initial attempt to revitalize it was the Inner Harbor's highest-profile failure. In 1985 or so, it was the site of an indoor Six Flags amusement park that lasted about four years. It was then a huge, short-lived nightclub vaguely themed after the mascot of the amusement park, then sat dormant for a few more years before it became home to ESPN Zone, Barnes & Noble, et al.
^Good point. The lesson I take from the power plant is that they eventually found a viable use that complemented the surrounding atmosphere. What they didn't do is immediately implode the structure, which is architecturally unique to Baltimore.
Well now I'm depressed, thanks a lot MJ ;)
Jax has a bit harder of a challenge. Things like ripley's wouldn't do well downtown with st Augustine being so close.
With that, I still think we could do much better, capitalize on our history more. Getting a larger convention center brings nothing but people and foot traffic downtown, I think that has to be our #1 priority.
Ripley's came +30 years after good incremental, coordinated planning. Jax has not had 5 straight years of sticking to a plan. Nevertheless, I would not get too concerned about specific uses. The market will handle that. Instead, whatever we do should be clustered together with adjacent properties, with a priority on providing an enhanced human scaled experience.
I wanted to add something to this conversation, but all I can think about is crab cakes...
Very positive.
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on August 27, 2014, 04:00:55 PM
I wanted to add something to this conversation, but all I can think about is crab cakes...
+1
Look at all that river interaction. Everything opens to the river with an entrance. It hugs the water way and encourages the public to walk along it. We're talking about reopening coastline drive to cut anything at the "new" landing off from the River. Sometimes I think we're ashamed of the St. John's. We'd rather just use the river as a byline on private real-estate, "waterfront", but really "waterfront with nothing to do on the water". A benefit in name and status only.
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on August 27, 2014, 04:00:55 PM
I wanted to add something to this conversation, but all I can think about is crab cakes...
If you want me to be honest, I didn't make a pit stop in Baltimore for the Inner Harbor last month. I stopped specifically for lump crab cakes.
Having grown up near Baltimore (about an hour away), there were draws to Inner Harbor. The Aquarium and The Science Center. Both are nationally recognized. Jax has nothing downtown to compare. Add to that the restaurants and nightlife, you have the whole package.
Had Latitude 30 gone in downtown (with adequate parking), I think it would have done well and brought people back downtown.
Why is it planners don't get it? I don't like going downtown because the parking sucks and because there is rarely enough quality stuff going on to make me want to put up with the parking PITA. None of the restaurants there are "destination" places (except maybe Fionn McCools). Harborplace has Philips Crab house, a Hard Rock, Cheesecake Factory, Capitol Grill, Brio, Morton's Steakhouse, and more. We have Hooters. All the other upscale places went to the Town Center. If Jax would have played it right, and offered the right incentives, they could have had them downtown.
Add to that the bums, and no I really don't want to go downtown.
As mentioned in the article, the #1 Science Center (1976) and #5 Aquarium (1981) opened up within five years of each other and pretty close to one another. In between their openings (and their physical locations) were the openings of the #2 World Trade Center (1977), #3 convention center (1979), and #4 Harborplace (1980).
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3489945923_XXjZ4xV-M.jpg)
this map of the Jacksonville riverfront shows where these five complementing attractions would be located if built at a similar distance between one another in Jacksonville. Most of Baltimore's major Inner Harbor developments would be crammed between the Acosta Bridge and Hyatt Hotel. If we clustered what we invested in 20-30 years ago like Baltimore did, we wouldn't be struggling today.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3489945936_SdTgsLj-M.jpg)
As the article also states, we actually invested in similar projects during the 1970s and 80s. #1 MOSH (1969), #2 One Independent Square (1974), #3 Prime Osborn Convention Center (1985), and the #4 The Landing (1987). We didn't build an aquarium but the Inner Harbor doesn't have a #5 performing arts center either, so throw these uses on the map and it looks like someone kicked an ant hill.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3489945927_GtpVxMq-M.jpg)
Now, superimpose the location of Jax's investments over the Inner Harbor aerial and you'll see why one environment has synergy between the uses and the other doesn't.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3489945781_RKvN4kb-M.jpg)
full article: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-aug-baltimores-inner-harbor-vs-jacksonvilles-riverfront#.U_5ITfldViY
DT Jax isn't going to change overnight but if we want the place to be vibrant like the Inner Harbor, we're going to have to concentrate enhancing a compact area as opposed to continuing to invest in a sprawling autocentric type of way. This is one of the reasons it bugs me when we believe we can just shift activities that should be highly concentrated and centralized to the sites like the Shipyards and JEA Southbank land. All I see is tons of money spent and another generation 20 years down the road, wondering why we've refused to do what has worked in nearly every other city since the creation of mankind.
Jacksonville has some room to play with to create a similarly successful destination point. The Shipyards, Metro Park, Old Courthouse/City Hall space, JEA on Southbank are all available to build and create a unified entertainment, residential and commercial district.
If you fills in those holes with items similar to what the Inner Harbor has - and add it to what we already have >>> the Hyatt and Crown Plaza hotels on the river, Friendship Fountain, marina, MOSH, Peninsula and the Strand, more.
Then don't you have a reason for people to come or stay Downtown?
It's taken us over 40 years to get to this point, so it's not unrealistic to expect that it will take another 50 years to fill in that much space at our absorption rate. But yes over time (half of us will be dead or too old to enjoy) you can. On the other hand, you can still get there by following the Inner Harbor route. Start in a concentrated point and incrementally expand outward. This way, you can at least have some real vibrancy earlier on with a concentrated epicenter.
Hard living here all these years amidst such "Potential".
I am in the marine recreation business,host boaters from throughout the US who come to Jacksonville to buy boats,often remaining in the area for a time (after all, we posses the finest weather patterns! 8))-those from the Northeast,Baltimore exhibit the most incredulous disappointment and exclamation:"Jacksonville Has So Much Potential!"
It strikes me that in Jacksonville, the public owns so much waterfront property.
I am certain we could eclipse Baltimore-although as noted,many of us would be dead by then.
If not by now,when?
Might not be worth it to look forward with anticipation. Better to select a place,home that has met certain potential,or is quite reasonably comfy,smug in it's own skin,attributes.
I know of some who have recently moved away or plan to due to this Dashed Potential dynamic.
Treating Downtown with detachment,sense of futility of no help or service of course.
Thank you MJ,Ennis- nice effort,work here with this presentation.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_speck_the_walkable_city
Compactness = walkability = connectivity = popularity.
Quote from: Noone on August 28, 2014, 07:52:49 AM
Quote from: Noone on August 27, 2014, 04:46:34 PM
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on August 27, 2014, 04:00:55 PM
I wanted to add something to this conversation, but all I can think about is crab cakes...
+1
+2
+1,000,000
I was JUST talking about Maryland crab cakes about five minutes ago! I still remember my dismay, when I first moved here from Baltimore over 20 years ago, at the total absence of anything resembling a real crab cake...the kind that is almost all lump crab meat and so rich that you can barely finish one. The first time I tried to order a crab cake, at the "fancy" restaurant on the Old Pier in Jax Beach (I know, I know...but I was new here back then and I figured any restaurant that was at the beach and right on the water...), I asked the server if they were fresh or frozen. She checked with the chef and reported back that crab cakes
only come frozen (WTH?!?). I knew at that moment that I was very far from home!
I have recently learned from a well-known local chef that almost all of the crab meat used down here is pasteurized Asian "swimming crab" and, according to him, using chunk white tuna to make a crab cake would yield better results than using that. (Omg!! Yuck! No!!!!) He rhapsodized about the old days when one could get fresh-picked blue crab meat from Palatka but said that is no more. Oh well...at least now we have Barbara Jeans...but, to roughly paraphrase Dorothy, "...there ain't no place like Bawlmer, Hon!"
Quote from: tayana42 on August 28, 2014, 02:47:55 PM
http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_speck_the_walkable_city
Compactness = walkability = connectivity = popularity.
It really is just that simple.
If its really that simple, then why Jacksonville?
We've failed so long, we find ways to ignore the obvious in favor of more complex schemes and unproven strategies. Hopefully, that type of sentiment has changed. Only time will tell.
Ok I see, so another 30 years then and we will be set gottcha, :) just kidding, hopefullly they develope a good plan. There are to many water front developments to keep coming up with what was proposed.
LOL. Unfortunately, if we keep doing what we've done the last 40 years, Jax will be underwater from global warming before the streets are lined 24/7 with people and businesses.
Quote from: finehoe on August 27, 2014, 08:25:55 AM
Nothing about the new Baltimore casino?
the logo looks a lot like the one ISIS is using for Christians ;)
Quote from: ssky on August 28, 2014, 06:33:18 PM
Quote from: Noone on August 28, 2014, 07:52:49 AM
Quote from: Noone on August 27, 2014, 04:46:34 PM
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on August 27, 2014, 04:00:55 PM
I wanted to add something to this conversation, but all I can think about is crab cakes...
+1
+2
+1,000,000
I was JUST talking about Maryland crab cakes about five minutes ago! I still remember my dismay, when I first moved here from Baltimore over 20 years ago, at the total absence of anything resembling a real crab cake...the kind that is almost all lump crab meat and so rich that you can barely finish one. The first time I tried to order a crab cake, at the "fancy" restaurant on the Old Pier in Jax Beach (I know, I know...but I was new here back then and I figured any restaurant that was at the beach and right on the water...), I asked the server if they were fresh or frozen. She checked with the chef and reported back that crab cakes only come frozen (WTH?!?). I knew at that moment that I was very far from home!
I have recently learned from a well-known local chef that almost all of the crab meat used down here is pasteurized Asian "swimming crab" and, according to him, using chunk white tuna to make a crab cake would yield better results than using that. (Omg!! Yuck! No!!!!) He rhapsodized about the old days when one could get fresh-picked blue crab meat from Palatka but said that is no more. Oh well...at least now we have Barbara Jeans...but, to roughly paraphrase Dorothy, "...there ain't no place like Bawlmer, Hon!"
Try Barbara Jeans in Palm Valley (15 S Roscoe Blvd, Ponte Vedra, FL). They are better than any of the crab cakes I ate while living in the Baltimore area.
^ Sorry I missed your last couple of sentences. Baltimore for the past 20 years has been importing most of their crab meat due to the issues the Chesapeake Bay has had.
Baltimore's Inner Harbor also has the advantage of the density of the surrounding cities, mainly DC.
You can do all sorts of things when you tax the daylights out of your citizens.
You can have Baltimore's Inner Harbor. It's a tad pricey and not all that great.
Having visited there, certainly better than Jax river front!!
I just finished a day in Baltimore and also spent the afternoon in the Inner Harbor, Locust Hill, Federal Hill neighborhoods. I also spent time in the Mt.. Vernon neighborhood.
I saw a great deal of urban/industrial transformation in and around the Inner Harbor. In fact they have markers along the riverwalk with pix reminding people what it used to look like.
Similarities to Jax seem to be that Baltimore is farther along in the transformation than Jax.
Just as we have Maxwell House, Inner Harbor will have the sprawling Domino Sugar plant.
I like what they are doing in the Locust Hill area, high density housing with retail based at the base with parking relatively hidden from outward view. Only yhe Harris-Teeter store was standalone as it couldn't fit in the urban retail square footage.
But I really liked the diverse design language they used in these urban settings. Some use a traditional brownstone look, some were urban moderno, yet others were purposefully made to look pre-1900 with the slightly crooked brick layout. It was well done.
Another "offering" I found on Inner Harbor was "Ritz-Carlton Residences", which I assume are the high end equivalent to Residence Inn from Marriott. These looked like waterfront condos from the outside with zero signage. Very discreet.
I had to go up to the Mt Vernon neighborhood to stop at the Maryland Historical Society for some research. This neighborhood is still in transformation with a lot of neglected properties.
I asked for a local lunch recommendation and got the "Mt. Vernon Marketplace" as highly recommended.
http://mtvernonmarketplace.com/ (http://mtvernonmarketplace.com/)
This was not only a very fascinating place, but the food there was excellent. Its basically a food startup incubator. For people with great recipes, but dont have the capital for a standalone full service site.
It provided the prospect with square footage, a Clover based register system and some common inventory to keep costs down. In one of the seating areas were ping pong tables and game tables.
I went over and got a fantastic turkey burger made in a fascinating way, then went over to a dessert startup run by a grandmother, her daughter and grandaughter. Clearly these were homemade recipes being sold in volume. The strawberry balsamic ice cream was incredible as was the strawberry butter cream cupcakes.
All I could think of is what a concept for the Landing! The marketplace was pretty spartan in appearance, but the food was great and clearly word of mouth in the neighborhood was wholly positive. These were locals running, not a chain operator.
But I can clearly see the resemblance between Jax and areas of Baltimore, the benefit Baltimore has seemed to be a broader base of capital and more corp HQ's. I would have to do a more detailed compare.
Unfortunately I missed the April "urbanism"trip with Lake, but I can see why he took good notes on greater Baltimore.
FWIW: Here is where I got the turkey burger in Baltimore.
They are called; "Between 2 Buns"
http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/dining/baltimore-diner-blog/bal-between-2-buns-opens-at-the-mount-vernon-marketplace-20160516-story.html (http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/dining/baltimore-diner-blog/bal-between-2-buns-opens-at-the-mount-vernon-marketplace-20160516-story.html)
When I mentioned that they should try this concept at the Landing to my spouse, she said "that's exactly what I was thinking!"
Does someone want to drop an idea on Toney?
When in Baltimore talk to the Baltimore guys 2014-412.
Spuwho, glad you're having a good time on your trip. Mount Vernon Marketplace sounds like a food hall:
(http://mtvernonmarketplace.com/slides/02-local-oyster.jpg)
(http://mtvernonmarketplace.com/images/artisans-map.png)
If you have time, check out Union Market in DC. It's similar, just larger.
QuoteBut I can clearly see the resemblance between Jax and areas of Baltimore, the benefit Baltimore has seemed to be a broader base of capital and more corp HQ's. I would have to do a more detailed compare.
I noticed things tended to be in closer proximity to one another, allowing synergy and extra foot traffic to be generated....which creates more economic opportunity. Locally, our similar investments tend to be more spread out in downtown. Thus, after 40 years of trying, we have small isolated pockets of activity.
I would say yes because it seems that Baltimore is sticking to their zoning and design guidelines, whereas COJ seems to struggle.
Baltimore does have a lot of former industrial sites that are vacant (torn down) and a much larger inventory of older buildings that are sitting empty. They dont seem to be in a hurry to tear them down.
The Mt. Vernon neighborhood seems to be the "edge" where the transformation is occuring north of the urban center.
There's some interesting neighborhoods north of Mt Vernon like Bolton Hill, Greenmount West and Hampden. Baltimore is a really cool and misunderstood city, IMO.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-h792j9M/0/L/DSCF9852-L.jpg)
Bolton Hill
Quote from: spuwho on July 21, 2016, 11:12:22 PM
I had to go up to the Mt Vernon neighborhood to stop at the Maryland Historical Society for some research. This neighborhood is still in transformation with a lot of neglected properties.
Mt. Vernon has been at the stage for the last 25 years. It doesn't seem to be getting either better or worse. It's as if it got to a certain point of rejuvenation and then just sort of plateaued.
Back in April, I noticed, what seemed like a good amount of fairly new development in Mount Vernon and the University of Baltimore's campus, just north. Here's a few shots:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-TvdR5WK/0/X2/DSCF9871-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-PhJ9Dxw/0/L/DSCF9885-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-nWjPP4t/0/L/DSCF9891-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-PCWBCkV/0/L/DSCF9895-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-qNnJJK2/0/L/DSCF9882-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-qTnVZx9/0/L/DSCF9867-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-SFrP8Qz/0/L/DSCF9868-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-xrxbdK9/0/L/DSCF9879-L.jpg)
Big News here in Jax is that the Citizens held nearly 100 acres on the river downtown Jax (Ship Yards and former JEA) and have recently relinquished about half/JEA lands.
Not happy?