Metro Jacksonville

JTA Shrinks Transportation Center's Footprint

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/744226236_j47W9cJ-M.jpg)

For years, Metro Jacksonville has claimed the Jacksonville Transportation Authority's (JTA) Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center (JRTC) was too big for its britches and expensive for taxpayer's wallets. Now it appears that JTA is beginning to move in the right direction with a revised plan that reduces the JRTC's massive footprint.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-aug-jta-shrinks-transportation-centers-footprint

If you have any suggestions for the JRTC, you can let JTA know today at:

www.newsystemjta.com

Still not the most inspiring thing I've ever seen, but it's WAY better

Its a start...

I'm sorry, am I seeing something wrong?  Greyhound would still be north giving this the same footprint.  Wasn't the huge footprint the problem to begin with?  Still working around the convention center space. 

Greyhound used to be fronting Adams Street, now it is along Forsyth Street - a block (two if you count Houston St.) closer.  But, yeah, still working around the Convention Center - and until someone moves the darn thing, they will have to.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 22, 2014, 09:29:20 AM
I'm sorry, am I seeing something wrong?  Greyhound would still be north giving this the same footprint.  Wasn't the huge footprint the problem to begin with?  Still working around the convention center space. 

^Greyhound is a block closer in the revised plan.  A block and tons of money was saved by combining the local intercity bus terminal with the existing Skyway station.  The Greyhound station and restaurant now directly faces the JTA bus bays and the Skyway is above them.

In this layout, only the future Amtrak station sits south of the Prime Osborn, but there's not much you can do there, since that's where the tracks run. In my opinion, the JTA Skyay, intercity bus/BRT block is ideal, although I hope the architecture will be more modern than the last concept. It makes transferring between those three modes them quick and easy and Greyhound faces it, so it's not the end of the world. 

The bull in the china shop is still the convention center.  If it we're gone, Greyhound could be there or at least in the parking lot behind the exhibition hall. However, that's not under JTA's control and the city has no money to move it this decade. So the question becomes, is it worth holding the entire thing up for 10-20 years to allow COJ to make up its mind on what it wants to do with the convention center? Or is it better to develop something that works for the next two decades, along with an incremental expansion plan that considers the eventual relocation of the convention center?

How many square feet would be needed at the Prime to get phase one of this multi-modal facility in there? Is it not possible to cut the convention space down from 265,000 sf (do we really need all that anyway?), fit Amtrak, Greyhound, and Megabus in there, and still have over 100,000 sf of convention space?

The convention center needs to be doubled in size. The exhibition hall is only 78,500sf.  Cutting it down isn't the way to go if Jax wants to be in the business. Either expanding it or building a larger center off-site are the options for remaining in that industry. 

In either scenario, whether the convention center stays or goes, the potential location of Amtrak platforms and the existing Skyway station remain the same, so you're not gaining much by tearing down the exhibition hall and moving the intercity terminal there. At least utilizing the existing Skyway bus bays for the intercity terminal, allows for quick short term implementation at an affordable price.  Given that the Skyway and intercity buses are local, it also makes sense for transferring between those modes to be as efficient as possible.

Nevertheless, the bull in the china shop situation is still COJ coming up with a solution and cash to do something with the convention center.  That's not happening anytime soon, so is it worth not doing anything to improve intermodal connectivity, while waiting on a resolution for the convention center that could never come? Furthermore, in the event that AAF does eventually expand into Jax, then we're presented with another opportunity.

It would be cool to have alternatives for if the convention center stays and expands west, or goes altogether.  My guess is that you'll find parts of the layout that won't really change one way or the other.  In a phased implementation plan, that's where it would make most sense to invest first.  In that scenario, I think intercity buses directly under the Skyway makes sense.

Is there really that much demand for transfers between Greyhound/Amtrak/JTA buses?  I still don't see what unmet need this would fill.

There must be some demand.  For example, when I travel Amtrak, I would have to take a 2 hour, 2 bus ride to get the station where it is now.  If - no, When - it moves back downtown, it would be less than an hour.

After the route changes in December, I won't even have that option, as the bus that comes near my house is being taken away.

Quote from: finehoe on August 22, 2014, 02:32:28 PM
Is there really that much demand for transfers between Greyhound/Amtrak/JTA buses?  I still don't see what unmet need this would fill.

This is the basic type of transit connectivity you need if you want to be a part of larger regional projects like All Aboard Florida. When you put the right infrastructure and supporting land use policies in place, you have the basic building blocks to morph into a more multimodal friendly community over time.  If you don't get your basic infrastructure right, nothing changes.

QuoteThe industry panel took a local view, though, by asking which investments would promote Jacksonville the best. Downtown public transit connectivity was considered one of the missing puzzle pieces.

It's one of the things holding back All Aboard Florida, a privately funded high-speed rail initiative that will connect Orlando with Miami. Jacksonville is not yet included in that plan.

The initiative is first targeting cities that have local routes in place to take riders from high-speed rail stations to their final destinations, said Husein Cumber, executive vice president of Corporate Development for the Florida East Coast Railway, the parent company of All Aboard Florida.

Orlando is one such city. It has been investing in its public

transportation system for decades.

To compete, Jacksonville would have to have routes in place so a rider could get from a high-speed rail station to places like EverBank Field for a game, to the airport, San Marco or Jacksonville Beach, Cumber said.

"If a person can't easily get off our system and move to their end destination, when we do our ridership studies, the numbers are not going to come out as strongly," he said.

FEC is investing $2 billion to create the first phase of All Aboard Florida, Cumber said. The project is viable because population growth is now headed away from suburbs and towards urban centers.

"When we think about an intra-city rail system, we need to have that density pick up, so that we can have a population to target and to pick up as riders," Cumber said.

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543684

Kudos to our JTA. They are making some great moves lately. Many people are taking notice.

This looks WAY better. Good on JTA.

Congratulations to Metrojacksonville.

Still a massive waste of money, resources and developable land.

I wonder what part of: "A single station, single waiting room, single ticket counter with multiple windows," that JTA/FDOT doesn't get?

Worse? THE STATION IS ALREADY THERE, but here we go again, trying to reinvent the wheel!

I challenge ANYONE to take a nice summer day, about 11 am (about Amtrak arrival time) walk through the hole in the fence (under the viaduct) out to near the tracks. Then walk up the hill, to the front door of the old station (you'd pick up your baggage here with the JTA or the MJ plan) then walk to Bay, walk down to the far end of the Skyway Station, cross the street, walk all the way through that block and into the midpoint of the next. BINGO! Epiphany!

I know, "But Ock, they're going to build a direct overhead walkway from the tracks to Greyhound..."
Q..So you plan to leave your luggage at the Amtrak Station? Nobody is going to use that walkway and Bay and Forsyth are going to get someone killed. Hopefully AAF reads this and pushes them just to refurbish and reopen the original station for ALL CARRIERS. Then let Flagler develop the rest of those LaVilla blocks.

That's a great plan, Ock, but the Convention Center is not going anywhere, and the City doesn't want to share the space.

^I think that's what Ennis was talking about. If we wait for the city to get its act together about the convention center, we could be waiting for many years to ever have a transportation center (or even to bring Amtrack back downtown).

There are plans, (probably about as effective as the downtown JRTC over the last decade) to move out into a 'real' convention center. Meanwhile our 'great conventions' consist of gun, stamp and home shows. HARDLY GAME CHANGING CONVENTIONS! Move the damn functions to a phone booth on Philips and let the building revert to the function it was designed for.

Meanwhile, Greyhounds 8,000 weekly, isn't enough passenger volume to keep the old 'Post House' restaurant open, Amtrak's 1,330 isn't enough passenger volume to keep the vending machines stocked, and JTA'S riders are generally not in the market for food, gifts, or travel needs.

The result? A Greyhound Station with no place to eat, An Amtrak Station with absolutely no other services, and a bunch of JTA platforms that duplicate Rosa Parks. Thus there is no critical mass and we have three giant stations full of 'new retail TOD', each with a dirt floor and locked doors! VACANT!

Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 25, 2014, 07:01:04 AM
That's a great plan, Ock, but the Convention Center is not going anywhere, and the City doesn't want to share the space.

thanks for the reality check

With just a small 'terminal throat' and only a piece of the wye on the city property I would imagine the desire to relocate Greyhound, play to AAF, and keep the convention center might push it over the top. I think our problem is RSH apparently does NOT understand what a true Transportation Center looks like, to wit: Milwaukee, Fort Worth, Denver, New Orleans etc.. I think the passenger throat could be boxed in with sound barriers, which would also serve as people barriers. With the roads and ramps elevated over the tracks, it would be an above ground 'tunnel' without a roof. Trucks could access through a gate with stop signs that could swing backward across the tracks (railroad practice). A curving sidewalk along the parking lot allows pedestrians to access the ramp or elevator up and over the tracks. Seems to me it would work. Thanks for the kudos, we might do more on this...
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I agree that waiting for the convention center to move before taking any action on bringing Amtrak into the old train terminal is short-sighted.  There has been talk about building a larger convention center as long as I can remember.  There indeed are folks who want to wait until the fate of the convention center is decided.  This could not only take years, but delays a sensible means of getting Amtrak passengers in and out of our city.  As a frequent Amtrak passenger, I envy those cities that have Amtrak stations that have passenger amenities and/or are within walking distance of restaurants, lodging, shopping, etc.  Every downtown merchant should support expediting rather than stalling such a move back downtown for passenger rail.  By continuing to have our Amtrak station in the middle of nowhere on U.S. 1, there is no way to bring incoming and outgoing passengers into our local economy.  I remember taking advantage of Amtrak stations that have better locations.  South Station in Boston, for example, has retail and dining inside their station for travelers and commuters.  When I took the now-suspended Sunset Limited to Los Angeles, I was able to rent a car at the car rental office located in Union Station.  When I went to New York City for Spring Break, my hotel room was only blocks away from Penn Station. 
In my opinion, we are shortchanging our train station in ways that we would not disrespect those who travel by air.  We expect to have food and other options for people who are traveling out of JIA.   Even if we don't believe that having food and shopping concourses inside a restored Amtrak station downtown, at least there is the urban core that would benefit from train passenger dollars.  I bet that air passengers have a much better impression of our city than train passengers.  The JIA interior is designed beautifully with art and aesthetics that conjure up a land where Florida begins.  That is an excellent first impression that surely beats a train passenger coming into our city and experiencing what looks and feels like a whistle-stop in Podunk.