This idea comes out of some recent posting in the Jax Sushi Restaurants thread. One of the themes of the posters was one of "give me Jax and it's lower priced dining over city x y z"... So that made me first look at my credit card statement - documenting the cost of many nights out in Jax - then at the menus of the places under discussion, JAX's "better" dining establishments (on which there was universal agreement) - Orsay, Black Sheep, 13 Gypsies, etc.
Funny thing... Jax appears to be JUST as expensive at similar solid but not top of the charts places in other cities that "you can't compare Jax to"... Who would have thought? Take a look:
Pele Wood Fired (a place that is trying to bring Neapolitan pizza to Jax, but to me still just not quite getting there) - http://peleswoodfire.com/wp-content/uploads/Peles-Dinner-Autumn-2013-FINAL.pdf Avg Price of a pie just north of $17
compare to:
Motorino - a NYC place (with outposts in Hong Kong and Manilla - i.e. world class) which brings most of its ingredients in from Italia - http://motorinopizza.com/file/8058/ev%20food%20web%205.29.14.pdf Avg price of a pie clocking in at... $17
Black Sheep - farm to table style, solid, well made, if unremarkable, good space and good service always - http://blacksheep5points.com/menu/dinner/ Non Sandwich/Veggie apps - about $25 (helped by a $19 shrimp & grits), starters $10-ish
compare to:
Foragers City Table - NYC organic new American dining - http://www.foragerscitygrocer.com/chelsea-restaurant starters $13 (a little hard to compare due to menu format) and entrees about $26 and change
Orsay - french bistro - http://www.restaurantorsay.com/menu/dinner starters clocking about $13 omitting the foie gras at $24, and non sandwich/veg entrees at $27.50
compare to
Raoul's - a classic spot in a very hot neighborhood, frequented by celebs - http://raouls.com/menus.php?sec_id=8#sec10 apps about $15 and entrees about $29 (excluding a $52 rack of lamb, which Orsay does not offer).
13 Gypsies - tapas style menu - http://www.13gypsies.com/menu.html clocking about $9 and change
compare to
Nai Tapas - http://www.menupages.com/restaurants/nai/menu also clocking around $9 - $10. They offer a larger size option as well.
So, interesting isn't it. The questions come - why is this the case? I would assume given the significantly higher rents the NYC places are paying, the significantly higher labor and operating costs (carting anyone?) and the cut throat environment of serve very good food or quickly go out of business (see high costs) that their prices would be significantly higher than Jax, like 50% or more...
And yet they are not?
Why is this? One possibility is VOLUME, you can make as much money keeping the place busy and seats filled. I think this makes sense but you still only get to turn so many tables a night, and these places are pretty small overall, no 300 seaters here...
Or is the Jax dining scene capitalizing on a monopoly like environment? Where there is little choice at the top end of the quality spectrum, so they just need to be comparable to each other?
Now for the haters and Aspie's - first - I like all the Jax restaurants mentioned, I eat at these places weekly and no doubt the Jax scene would be worse off without them. This is NOT about these restaurants per se (hey that's a good name for a restaurant) but to explore a broader question of what is it going to take to enliven the Jax dining scene. Second - I live here and have no intention of leaving in the near term, so if you are going to comment "if you don't like Jax you can leave (puffed lips)" well I just saved you having to type that... Third if you are going to say "well you can't compare Jax to city xyz" well I just did and Jax don't look so good.
Lastly - yeah this is a look at a few restaurants and also omits the top end NYC places (because there are no JAX equivalents) so you can save all your statistical comparisons... I don't doubt if you did a study of every restaurant menu NYC would be higher than Jax, that is not the question, the question is why is Jax so expensive and why are there so few quality places???
Your thoughts?
Actually, housing is the only thing more expensive. My utilities are comparable, my vehicle insurance is comparable, my grocery bill is comparable, even a night at the movie theater is comparable. The one and only discrepancy is my rent here (NYC) vs. mortgage there(Fleming Island). Outside of housing, there isn't much difference in expenses, so it doesn't surprise me that menus compare. I love trying new foods, and NYC definitely offers that, but at home, I cook a lot more.
However, either because of or resulting from the higher rents, salaries are much higher here (NYC). Which results in more disposable income. Over the last few years my extended family has moved to various cities in Florida from Jersey and the one thing they all comment on in the first few months being there: living is much cheaper, but I also have less money after the bills are paid.
Perhaps this is why no one wants to risk their life savings to venture into a "great" restaurant offering. From my limited view, restaurants are extremely risky investments for just regular fare, it would take a lot of courage to break out new.
So in reality, Jax may not be that much more expensive than any other metro area in the US. If we were, then I'd imagine some great chefs would be lining up to open a spot where people are so free with their spending money.
Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 03:50:11 PM
or you can go to bold bean on stockton and wait your turn in line for 20 minutes, pay on average a dollar more per drink than starbucks, wait an additional 10 minutes for the drink to be finished, and then patiently wait for seating room.
Jacksonville people will flood to high quality food at reasonable prices.
This gets back to my thought that Jax is a poor city. French Pantry looks to be $10 and under a dish... So there is a value perceptions at that price point... at $25 probably not so much.
It also explains Hawker's apparent success. The menu is cleverly designed, so that most of it is $8 a dish or less... So a group of four can go out and you can spend $25 total with a drink and see a lot of food, eight plates... or go solo and get a bowl of noodles and a night out for $10.
Also might explain Medure's move downscale to burgers and ongoing expansion in that area.... just not enough dining dollars at the $25 a plate level in this town.
I don't know if I buy that argument. If money was really the end all be all for food culture, New Orleans would be a desert and southwestern Connecticut would be the hottest hotspot in the country. I'm sure it doesn't hurt, but there are other factors as well. The number of visitors and tourists bringing their money into the restaurants probably tips the scales a lot. Jacksonville doesn't get nearly the visitors in either volume or proportion to a place like New York, and the visitors who come here aren't coming for the food or local culture, but for golf, the beach, sports & events, etc.
I expect that would have an even bigger effect on small/mid-sized places with strong restaurant cultures (or reputations for them, anyway), like New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston or Asheville. Despite their small population there are tons of outsiders pumping money into it. And specifically there are visitors who come specifically for the local culture and food in those places, which separates them from some other tourist communities (Orlando, Vegas, Daytona, etc). Nobody goes to Orlando for "Orlando cuisine", in fact a lot of the good restaurants are away from where the tourists go, as compared to, say, Charleston.
I don't buy the argument that dining in Jax is as expensive as dining in NYC. For one, Jax doesn't have a tier of quality as high as you can find in abundance in NYC. NYC's mid-range/avg restaurant might be equivalent to an Orsay or Black Sheep, but another big difference is that outside of chains/fast food, NYC's cheaper corner mom and pop fare or cafe fare is going to be A LOT more expensive than what you'd seek out for quick/cheap/decent in Jax. This is because the rents are higher and the salaries needed to pay employees (even if that comes in the form of a tip on higher bill) are higher in NYC. It's the same reason my haircut in SF costs $87, whereas a top salon men's cut in Jax might be half that, or less (and my salon in SF isn't a "top tier" by any means).
NYC is way more expensive to dine out in than SF, and SF is way more expensive to dine out in than Jax. Period.
A final three factors is groceries:
Jaybird, you are the only person I've heard say groceries are the same in NYC. My experience there is similar to my experience in SF: you have a lot of higher end groceries to choose from, or very small corner grocers to choose from. Either way, you're paying exorbitant grocery bills, and sometimes it actually just makes sense to eat out.
Dense cities such as NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston aren't "brown bag your lunch" cities. You are eating out every single lunch and paying "financial district" prices. Also, work hours are longer and then you either have happy hour or gym. When all is said and done, you are left no choice but to eat dinner out because you're too tired to cool it and waiting in a grocery line will take up just as much time.
And mega finally, who even has a decent kitchen for cooking in these cities???
Bottom line is that at least for single professionals, young couples saving up, cramped middle class families with working parents, etc etc, you're spending A LOT more on just about everything in the big cities, and NYC is the most expensive for just about everything except for rent (SF has very clearly overtaken it for the time being).
Silly argument. And I don't live in NYC, but I am on a plane leaving it now to go back to my home in SF. I can comment.
Tourism and business visitors is also a part of it. But really the rents have a huge trickle down effect on "average" businesses. A top end restaurant in NYC can charge $250+ prix fixe before wine and still do heavy volume because there are a lot of rich people. You'll find the same tippy top prices anywhere there are people willing to pay them. Jax has very few rich people.
But for avg restaurants, they are balancing out volume with their rent. Usually there's only so much volume they can do, maybe more in a big city, maybe equivalent to a restaurant in San Marco or Eiverside in Jax. But that rent comes down hard on restaurant ownership, so they need to lift prices. Their overhead is more expensive too. Getting fresh food to your business in NYC is A LOT more expensive than in Jax. Same reason that SF's flower mart is being kept near a freeway exit because moving it for development to an inner city location would drive up flower prices twofold or more as deliveries become so much more expensive.
Finally, as I mentioned, wait staff, line cooks, managers, and hosts need to be paid sufficiently to live within commuting distance to the restaurant. In Jax you can live for so cheap anywhere, but in NYC that is not the case.
Stupid argument.
I'm more worried you are paying $87 for a haircut.
Quote from: simms3 on July 29, 2014, 05:33:33 PM
Tourism and business visitors is also a part of it. But really the rents have a huge trickle down effect on "average" businesses. A top end restaurant in NYC can charge $250+ prix fixe before wine and still do heavy volume because there are a lot of rich people. You'll find the same tippy top prices anywhere there are people willing to pay them. Jax has very few rich people.
But for avg restaurants, they are balancing out volume with their rent. Usually there's only so much volume they can do, maybe more in a big city, maybe equivalent to a restaurant in San Marco or Eiverside in Jax. But that rent comes down hard on restaurant ownership, so they need to lift prices. Their overhead is more expensive too. Getting fresh food to your business in NYC is A LOT more expensive than in Jax. Same reason that SF's flower mart is being kept near a freeway exit because moving it for development to an inner city location would drive up flower prices twofold or more as deliveries become so much more expensive.
Finally, as I mentioned, wait staff, line cooks, managers, and hosts need to be paid sufficiently to live within commuting distance to the restaurant. In Jax you can live for so cheap anywhere, but in NYC that is not the case.
Stupid argument.
I think you missed the original post... There is no argument. NYC is much more expensive than JAX, yet we are paying the same here for what is a mid range option in NYC...
So if rents are cheap here and you can live cheaply here as you say, why are the top restaurants in JAX charges price they can command in NYC?
Quote from: Tacachale on July 29, 2014, 05:19:05 PM
I don't know if I buy that argument. If money was really the end all be all for food culture, New Orleans would be a desert and southwestern Connecticut would be the hottest hotspot in the country. I'm sure it doesn't hurt, but there are other factors as well. The number of visitors and tourists bringing their money into the restaurants probably tips the scales a lot. Jacksonville doesn't get nearly the visitors in either volume or proportion to a place like New York, and the visitors who come here aren't coming for the food or local culture, but for golf, the beach, sports & events, etc.
I expect that would have an even bigger effect on small/mid-sized places with strong restaurant cultures (or reputations for them, anyway), like New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston or Asheville. Despite their small population there are tons of outsiders pumping money into it. And specifically there are visitors who come specifically for the local culture and food in those places, which separates them from some other tourist communities (Orlando, Vegas, Daytona, etc). Nobody goes to Orlando for "Orlando cuisine", in fact a lot of the good restaurants are away from where the tourists go, as compared to, say, Charleston.
Money is money no matter who is spending it. Jax has minimal tourism and no food culture, as well as minimal expense account business in this city of military and call centers. I agree money is not be all and end all but absent a food culture there is nothing else to drive restaurateurs to set up.
I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...
But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.
I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.
For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.
That's awesome! I'm really interested to see what menu he comes up with that truly "Jacksonville experience".
Awesome article! Can't wait to check out his place next year!
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on July 30, 2014, 02:56:40 AM
I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...
But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.
I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.
For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.
I look at the Orlando/Winter Park area, where they have three amazing restaurants very close to each other: Cask and Larder, The Ravenous Pig and Luma on Park. All with James Beard nominated chefs at the helm. While I am supportive of the Jax food scene, it really cannot compare to the aforementioned places. Those places blow me away when I dine there. I just don't feel that when I dine here. Again, the food is yummy here, but not mind blowing.
Quote from: simms3 on July 29, 2014, 05:24:55 PM
I don't buy the argument that dining in Jax is as expensive as dining in NYC. For one, Jax doesn't have a tier of quality as high as you can find in abundance in NYC. NYC's mid-range/avg restaurant might be equivalent to an Orsay or Black Sheep, but another big difference is that outside of chains/fast food, NYC's cheaper corner mom and pop fare or cafe fare is going to be A LOT more expensive than what you'd seek out for quick/cheap/decent in Jax. This is because the rents are higher and the salaries needed to pay employees (even if that comes in the form of a tip on higher bill) are higher in NYC. It's the same reason my haircut in SF costs $87, whereas a top salon men's cut in Jax might be half that, or less (and my salon in SF isn't a "top tier" by any means).
NYC is way more expensive to dine out in than SF, and SF is way more expensive to dine out in than Jax. Period.
A final three factors is groceries:
Jaybird, you are the only person I've heard say groceries are the same in NYC. My experience there is similar to my experience in SF: you have a lot of higher end groceries to choose from, or very small corner grocers to choose from. Either way, you're paying exorbitant grocery bills, and sometimes it actually just makes sense to eat out.
Dense cities such as NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston aren't "brown bag your lunch" cities. You are eating out every single lunch and paying "financial district" prices. Also, work hours are longer and then you either have happy hour or gym. When all is said and done, you are left no choice but to eat dinner out because you're too tired to cool it and waiting in a grocery line will take up just as much time.
And mega finally, who even has a decent kitchen for cooking in these cities???
Bottom line is that at least for single professionals, young couples saving up, cramped middle class families with working parents, etc etc, you're spending A LOT more on just about everything in the big cities, and NYC is the most expensive for just about everything except for rent (SF has very clearly overtaken it for the time being).
Silly argument. And I don't live in NYC, but I am on a plane leaving it now to go back to my home in SF. I can comment.
Pretty much this. Food in Jax, overall, is nowhere near as expensive as what it is in bigger cities. We just returned from summer in DC & it's
at least $20 every time you leave your house to eat, no matter where you go. Also don't forget to include fees for riding the Metro BTW. Taking the family on that train ride & to eat too? Yeah, shit can get real expensive real quick. Sure, you can find dives, but even then its still not what I'd call cheap. Maybe cheap for there. Yet, the bars, restaurants, etc are always ALWAYS packed (which shows you how much money is flowing into that place & what it caters to to be able to sustain all that). Its easy to do if you're single, sharing rooms, semi-wealthy, etc. Not so easy if you're just a normal married schlub with kids (which is why they're not there). That city, and most others mentioned, belong almost exclusively to the single young professional. Believe that.
I ate out quite a bit, went to old hangouts, etc but mostly found myself just getting a build your own plate from the Giant's hot bar. Speaking of that, I did find groceries there were just as cheap (or cheaper) than here in Jax (Giant vs Publix). Also lots of Trader Joe's around, which is way cheaper on many things that here in Jax would cost more. In sum, I'd prob take the cheaper & decent mix of food options here in Jax any day, even if they're not exactly considered high end or cutting edge. You're not getting ripped off here.
Quote from: natybrew on July 30, 2014, 10:24:44 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on July 30, 2014, 02:56:40 AM
I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...
But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.
I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.
For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.
I look at the Orlando/Winter Park area, where they have three amazing restaurants very close to each other: Cask and Larder, The Ravenous Pig and Luma on Park. All with James Beard nominated chefs at the helm. While I am supportive of the Jax food scene, it really cannot compare to the aforementioned places. Those places blow me away when I dine there. I just don't feel that when I dine here. Again, the food is yummy here, but not mind blowing.
I have friends in College Park that eat at those aforementioned restaurants at least twice a week, yet they prefer some of the top restaurants in Jax when they come to town. The grass is always greener.
Quote from: Josh on July 31, 2014, 07:08:44 AM
Quote from: natybrew on July 30, 2014, 10:24:44 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on July 30, 2014, 02:56:40 AM
I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...
But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.
I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.
For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.
I look at the Orlando/Winter Park area, where they have three amazing restaurants very close to each other: Cask and Larder, The Ravenous Pig and Luma on Park. All with James Beard nominated chefs at the helm. While I am supportive of the Jax food scene, it really cannot compare to the aforementioned places. Those places blow me away when I dine there. I just don't feel that when I dine here. Again, the food is yummy here, but not mind blowing.
I have friends in College Park that eat at those aforementioned restaurants at least twice a week, yet they prefer some of the top restaurants in Jax when they come to town. The grass is always greener.
Yes, those are actually the exact restaurants I was thinking of in my comment about the good restaurants in Orlando and how they tend to be away from the tourist areas. My wife just went to one of them and was disappointed, not because it wasn't good, but because she could get the same back home. Definitely a grass is greener situation. Those spots also represent the best of Orlando; in comparison I'd say Jax stacks up pretty well, especially considering Orlando's bigger and an international destination.
Quote from: peestandingup on July 31, 2014, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: simms3 on July 29, 2014, 05:24:55 PM
I don't buy the argument that dining in Jax is as expensive as dining in NYC. For one, Jax doesn't have a tier of quality as high as you can find in abundance in NYC. NYC's mid-range/avg restaurant might be equivalent to an Orsay or Black Sheep, but another big difference is that outside of chains/fast food, NYC's cheaper corner mom and pop fare or cafe fare is going to be A LOT more expensive than what you'd seek out for quick/cheap/decent in Jax. This is because the rents are higher and the salaries needed to pay employees (even if that comes in the form of a tip on higher bill) are higher in NYC. It's the same reason my haircut in SF costs $87, whereas a top salon men's cut in Jax might be half that, or less (and my salon in SF isn't a "top tier" by any means).
NYC is way more expensive to dine out in than SF, and SF is way more expensive to dine out in than Jax. Period.
A final three factors is groceries:
Jaybird, you are the only person I've heard say groceries are the same in NYC. My experience there is similar to my experience in SF: you have a lot of higher end groceries to choose from, or very small corner grocers to choose from. Either way, you're paying exorbitant grocery bills, and sometimes it actually just makes sense to eat out.
Dense cities such as NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston aren't "brown bag your lunch" cities. You are eating out every single lunch and paying "financial district" prices. Also, work hours are longer and then you either have happy hour or gym. When all is said and done, you are left no choice but to eat dinner out because you're too tired to cool it and waiting in a grocery line will take up just as much time.
And mega finally, who even has a decent kitchen for cooking in these cities???
Bottom line is that at least for single professionals, young couples saving up, cramped middle class families with working parents, etc etc, you're spending A LOT more on just about everything in the big cities, and NYC is the most expensive for just about everything except for rent (SF has very clearly overtaken it for the time being).
Silly argument. And I don't live in NYC, but I am on a plane leaving it now to go back to my home in SF. I can comment.
Pretty much this. Food in Jax, overall, is nowhere near as expensive as what it is in bigger cities. We just returned from summer in DC & it's at least $20 every time you leave your house to eat, no matter where you go. Also don't forget to include fees for riding the Metro BTW. Taking the family on that train ride & to eat too? Yeah, shit can get real expensive real quick. Sure, you can find dives, but even then its still not what I'd call cheap. Maybe cheap for there. Yet, the bars, restaurants, etc are always ALWAYS packed (which shows you how much money is flowing into that place & what it caters to to be able to sustain all that). Its easy to do if you're single, sharing rooms, semi-wealthy, etc. Not so easy if you're just a normal married schlub with kids (which is why they're not there). That city, and most others mentioned, belong almost exclusively to the single young professional. Believe that.
I ate out quite a bit, went to old hangouts, etc but mostly found myself just getting a build your own plate from the Giant's hot bar. Speaking of that, I did find groceries there were just as cheap (or cheaper) than here in Jax (Giant vs Publix). Also lots of Trader Joe's around, which is way cheaper on many things that here in Jax would cost more. In sum, I'd prob take the cheaper & decent mix of food options here in Jax any day, even if they're not exactly considered high end or cutting edge. You're not getting ripped off here.
It's the same price if you look at it objectively by food quality, was my point. What's considered a high end restaurant here would be considered middle of the road in a large city. If you compare apples to apples, instead of just by perceived tier of the restaurant, then the pricing is much the same. If you compare what passes for high end here to high end in larger cities, then yes the prices will be higher in larger cities. That's because so is the food quality and the cost of the ingredients, and by extension the wages of the experienced staff needed to run the place and produce that level of product.
I think this city culturally accepts mediocre food without complaint, the result being a lack of market competition that normally produces good restaurants. Not to sound like a dick, but if mediocrity sells then nobody needs to take it that extra step to compete, and then the next guy takes another extra step to stand out in the market, and so on and so forth. That natural process of competition combined with time is what produces a dining scene with great restaurants. And it's not a city size thing either, it's a culture thing. Memphis for example is of similar size and economic makeup but has great food. I've named multiple smaller cities with varying economic makeups earlier in this thread, all which have better food than we do. I don't know of another city where you go to a restaurant on the main drag and pay $8 for a drink and $100 for dinner and get wilted lettuce and rotten avocados, yet the place has been open a decade and is still on a wait list half the week. They're not even trying, because they don't have to.
I can't really argue with the business model, if they're making money then why do anything different. It's only logical. But I'm not going to sit here and do the typical "if you don't like it, delta's ready when you are" response either. Culturally we do have a lower standard here compared to what the market expects of restaurants pretty much everywhere else. I've also seen a definite trend where the owners of these mediocre restaurants will gang together and run around lobbying the council, zoning board, historic commission, the health department, and whatever else they think is necessary to prevent a competitor from opening. It often works. That's also a problem which is mostly unique to Jacksonville, and stifles competition.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 31, 2014, 09:08:04 AM
Quote from: Josh on July 31, 2014, 07:08:44 AM
Quote from: natybrew on July 30, 2014, 10:24:44 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on July 30, 2014, 02:56:40 AM
I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...
But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.
I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.
For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.
I look at the Orlando/Winter Park area, where they have three amazing restaurants very close to each other: Cask and Larder, The Ravenous Pig and Luma on Park. All with James Beard nominated chefs at the helm. While I am supportive of the Jax food scene, it really cannot compare to the aforementioned places. Those places blow me away when I dine there. I just don't feel that when I dine here. Again, the food is yummy here, but not mind blowing.
I have friends in College Park that eat at those aforementioned restaurants at least twice a week, yet they prefer some of the top restaurants in Jax when they come to town. The grass is always greener.
Yes, those are actually the exact restaurants I was thinking of in my comment about the good restaurants in Orlando and how they tend to be away from the tourist areas. My wife just went to one of them and was disappointed, not because it wasn't good, but because she could get the same back home. Definitely a grass is greener situation. Those spots also represent the best of Orlando; in comparison I'd say Jax stacks up pretty well, especially considering Orlando's bigger and an international destination.
Oddly the best restaurants in orlando, speaking just to food quality, are run by Disney. The local ones are very similar to Jacksonville's mentality of 'how cheap can I get away with'. Although, unlike here, orlando also has a thriving ethnic food scene. But the smaller places in thornton and college park, I've eaten at two of the ones named, aren't that great.
Chris, you bring up some good points that are no doubt true, but I was mainly speaking of "every day food" type places. No doubt Jax lacks in the higher tiered type of dining, and what is here probably does overcharge for what it is.
My point was for the average Joe, eating your average every day meals (that isn't fast food or chain crap), Jax isn't so bad for the price & factoring in everything. It's extremely difficult to find cheaper but good food in places like DC because the rents are higher, lots of dollars rolling through there who can/will pay it, etc.
Quote from: simms3 on July 29, 2014, 05:24:55 PM
I don't buy the argument that dining in Jax is as expensive as dining in NYC. For one, Jax doesn't have a tier of quality as high as you can find in abundance in NYC. NYC's mid-range/avg restaurant might be equivalent to an Orsay or Black Sheep, but another big difference is that outside of chains/fast food, NYC's cheaper corner mom and pop fare or cafe fare is going to be A LOT more expensive than what you'd seek out for quick/cheap/decent in Jax. This is because the rents are higher and the salaries needed to pay employees (even if that comes in the form of a tip on higher bill) are higher in NYC. It's the same reason my haircut in SF costs $87, whereas a top salon men's cut in Jax might be half that, or less (and my salon in SF isn't a "top tier" by any means).
NYC is way more expensive to dine out in than SF, and SF is way more expensive to dine out in than Jax. Period.
A final three factors is groceries:
Jaybird, you are the only person I've heard say groceries are the same in NYC. My experience there is similar to my experience in SF: you have a lot of higher end groceries to choose from, or very small corner grocers to choose from. Either way, you're paying exorbitant grocery bills, and sometimes it actually just makes sense to eat out.
Dense cities such as NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston aren't "brown bag your lunch" cities. You are eating out every single lunch and paying "financial district" prices. Also, work hours are longer and then you either have happy hour or gym. When all is said and done, you are left no choice but to eat dinner out because you're too tired to cool it and waiting in a grocery line will take up just as much time.
And mega finally, who even has a decent kitchen for cooking in these cities???
Bottom line is that at least for single professionals, young couples saving up, cramped middle class families with working parents, etc etc, you're spending A LOT more on just about everything in the big cities, and NYC is the most expensive for just about everything except for rent (SF has very clearly overtaken it for the time being).
Silly argument. And I don't live in NYC, but I am on a plane leaving it now to go back to my home in SF. I can comment.
Soooo many blanket statements. These are all things about you that you seem to think apply to everyone in NYC and SF. $87 hair cut? Nope. Nobody goes grocery shopping at the dozens of regular chain grocery stores located all over NYC, including Manhattan? Nope, Food Emporium, Pathmark, Waldbaum's, Shoprite are all over the place. Everybody eats every meal out? Please. Maybe you do while you're visiting, congratulations. Work hours are longer? Sure, there are more stock traders working 80 hour weeks in New York, but at similar jobs between cities, more hours is not a rule. More time away from home for work do to your commute, sure, but there is certainly no blanket longer hours being worked.
Decent kitchen? Are you only talking about single people that live by themself in Manhattan, or was that actually a blanket statement for everyone in all of NYC? Did it also include the high density burbs outside the boroughs? I will grant that if you are a middle class single person without roommates living in an efficiency in Lower Manhattan, you won't have a very good kitchen for cooking.
But otherwise, I agree with you that dining out is more expensive in SF and NYC. I wouldn't call it drastic, but it is certainly noticeable (and the expensive scale goes much higher). But there's still Chipotle and McDonalds all over the place, so you can get an idea of exactly how much more you are paying between the cities.
I guess since we're only really discussing price points in this thread rather than the actual food, I'm not really surprised that the restaurants mentioned here in Jax cost the same as others in larger metros.
When you're using quality ingredients for your entrees, then the prices are going to be comparable, and I have no qualms paying market pricing for food.
Where I seem to continue getting lost in this thread is what we're considering upscale v/s everyday. To some, having drinks and dinner on the rooftop at Blacksheep is a once a month, big deal. For others, it's a typical Wednesday night. The same goes for most of the other restaurants mentioned.
Personally, I frequent all of the Riverside on more of a whimsical basis. It's not 'let's go somewhere nice' as much as it's 'I don't feel like cooking tonight'. They are my 'everyday' places. When we go 'out' I typically hit up San Marco or the Beach. The prices aren't any different, but the atmosphere and the anonymity are very welcome and make for a completely different experience.
I don't buy the argument that our restaurants here lack in the 'food culture' department or are only 'mediocre'. In all of the comments thus far, I still haven't seen anyone come out and say much of anything actual food related except for Chris bashing some wilted lettuce and rotten avocados, lol.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 31, 2014, 12:06:34 PM
I guess since we're only really discussing price points in this thread rather than the actual food, I'm not really surprised that the restaurants mentioned here in Jax cost the same as others in larger metros.
When you're using quality ingredients for your entrees, then the prices are going to be comparable, and I have no qualms paying market pricing for food.
Where I seem to continue getting lost in this thread is what we're considering upscale v/s everyday. To some, having drinks and dinner on the rooftop at Blacksheep is a once a month, big deal. For others, it's a typical Wednesday night. The same goes for most of the other restaurants mentioned.
Personally, I frequent all of the Riverside on more of a whimsical basis. It's not 'let's go somewhere nice' as much as it's 'I don't feel like cooking tonight'. They are my 'everyday' places. When we go 'out' I typically hit up San Marco or the Beach. The prices aren't any different, but the atmosphere and the anonymity are very welcome and make for a completely different experience.
I don't buy the argument that our restaurants here lack in the 'food culture' department or are only 'mediocre'. In all of the comments thus far, I still haven't seen anyone come out and say much of anything actual food related except for Chris bashing some wilted lettuce and rotten avocados, lol.
Have another look at the restaurants compared and the menus. These are like to like or NYC is better quality in every case. The only rational reason for Jax to be the same, comparing like to like, is due to the acceptance of mediocrity and a monopoly situation since there is not enough dining dollar to expand the number of restaurants which would lower prices or increase quality or both...
Chris's comments speak to the tacticts of the monopolists, restrain competition instead of compete with better product and value
"Culturally we do have a lower standard here compared to what the market expects of restaurants pretty much everywhere else. I've also seen
a definite trend where the owners of these mediocre restaurants will gang together and run around lobbying the council, zoning board, historic commission, the health department, and whatever else they think is necessary to prevent a competitor from opening. It often works. That's also a problem which is mostly unique to Jacksonville, and stifles competition."
Quote from: Sentient on July 31, 2014, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 31, 2014, 12:06:34 PM
I guess since we're only really discussing price points in this thread rather than the actual food, I'm not really surprised that the restaurants mentioned here in Jax cost the same as others in larger metros.
When you're using quality ingredients for your entrees, then the prices are going to be comparable, and I have no qualms paying market pricing for food.
Where I seem to continue getting lost in this thread is what we're considering upscale v/s everyday. To some, having drinks and dinner on the rooftop at Blacksheep is a once a month, big deal. For others, it's a typical Wednesday night. The same goes for most of the other restaurants mentioned.
Personally, I frequent all of the Riverside on more of a whimsical basis. It's not 'let's go somewhere nice' as much as it's 'I don't feel like cooking tonight'. They are my 'everyday' places. When we go 'out' I typically hit up San Marco or the Beach. The prices aren't any different, but the atmosphere and the anonymity are very welcome and make for a completely different experience.
I don't buy the argument that our restaurants here lack in the 'food culture' department or are only 'mediocre'. In all of the comments thus far, I still haven't seen anyone come out and say much of anything actual food related except for Chris bashing some wilted lettuce and rotten avocados, lol.
Have another look at the restaurants compared and the menus. These are like to like or NYC is better quality in every case. The only rational reason for Jax to be the same, comparing like to like, is due to the acceptance of mediocrity and a monopoly situation since there is not enough dining dollar to expand the number of restaurants which would lower prices or increase quality or both...
Chris's comments speak to the tacticts of the monopolists, restrain competition instead of compete with better product and value
"Culturally we do have a lower standard here compared to what the market expects of restaurants pretty much everywhere else. I've also seen a definite trend where the owners of these mediocre restaurants will gang together and run around lobbying the council, zoning board, historic commission, the health department, and whatever else they think is necessary to prevent a competitor from opening. It often works. That's also a problem which is mostly unique to Jacksonville, and stifles competition."
Chris can correct me if I'm wrong, but his comments are based off of a few specific instances when a certain group of restaurants in a particular area have done their damndest to eliminate competition through litigation - and to no avail. Both Mojos and Mellow Mushroom are in operation and doing quite well. The really messed up part of the entire situation is that the opposing owners are too damn short-sighted to realize that having more restaurants in an area increases their bottom line instead of detracting from a plain and simple fact of volume.
More people in the area = more opportunity for business.
The reason that they were worried is the same reason that they're menus haven't changed from the early 2000's. They didn't have to.
And to carry over some topics from the sushi thread, I have compared the menus and can't for the life of me tell you which one is better based off the menu alone. They're each very similar. What it all boils down to, from a foodie perspective (well..... mine anyhow), are the ingredients and the preparation. I'm not a big stickler for service because while it's part of the overall experience, it usually has zero effect on the flavors as long as the order is entered correctly.
The risotto tastes a bit creamier when they don't actually use cream.
The flavor of beets are a little bit brighter when I know that they were picked hours ago instead of days/weeks.
It makes me feel better knowing that the roast chicken comes from a farm just outside of Palatka.
The other restaurants that you listed might do the same things. I personally don't know. But I do know that it's happening at the restaurants we've been mentioning here.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on July 31, 2014, 11:33:22 AM
Quote from: simms3 on July 29, 2014, 05:24:55 PM
I don't buy the argument that dining in Jax is as expensive as dining in NYC. For one, Jax doesn't have a tier of quality as high as you can find in abundance in NYC. NYC's mid-range/avg restaurant might be equivalent to an Orsay or Black Sheep, but another big difference is that outside of chains/fast food, NYC's cheaper corner mom and pop fare or cafe fare is going to be A LOT more expensive than what you'd seek out for quick/cheap/decent in Jax. This is because the rents are higher and the salaries needed to pay employees (even if that comes in the form of a tip on higher bill) are higher in NYC. It's the same reason my haircut in SF costs $87, whereas a top salon men's cut in Jax might be half that, or less (and my salon in SF isn't a "top tier" by any means).
NYC is way more expensive to dine out in than SF, and SF is way more expensive to dine out in than Jax. Period.
A final three factors is groceries:
Jaybird, you are the only person I've heard say groceries are the same in NYC. My experience there is similar to my experience in SF: you have a lot of higher end groceries to choose from, or very small corner grocers to choose from. Either way, you're paying exorbitant grocery bills, and sometimes it actually just makes sense to eat out.
Dense cities such as NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston aren't "brown bag your lunch" cities. You are eating out every single lunch and paying "financial district" prices. Also, work hours are longer and then you either have happy hour or gym. When all is said and done, you are left no choice but to eat dinner out because you're too tired to cool it and waiting in a grocery line will take up just as much time.
And mega finally, who even has a decent kitchen for cooking in these cities???
Bottom line is that at least for single professionals, young couples saving up, cramped middle class families with working parents, etc etc, you're spending A LOT more on just about everything in the big cities, and NYC is the most expensive for just about everything except for rent (SF has very clearly overtaken it for the time being).
Silly argument. And I don't live in NYC, but I am on a plane leaving it now to go back to my home in SF. I can comment.
Soooo many blanket statements. These are all things about you that you seem to think apply to everyone in NYC and SF. $87 hair cut? Nope. Nobody goes grocery shopping at the dozens of regular chain grocery stores located all over NYC, including Manhattan? Nope, Food Emporium, Pathmark, Waldbaum's, Shoprite are all over the place. Everybody eats every meal out? Please. Maybe you do while you're visiting, congratulations. Work hours are longer? Sure, there are more stock traders working 80 hour weeks in New York, but at similar jobs between cities, more hours is not a rule. More time away from home for work do to your commute, sure, but there is certainly no blanket longer hours being worked.
Decent kitchen? Are you only talking about single people that live by themself in Manhattan, or was that actually a blanket statement for everyone in all of NYC? Did it also include the high density burbs outside the boroughs? I will grant that if you are a middle class single person without roommates living in an efficiency in Lower Manhattan, you won't have a very good kitchen for cooking.
But otherwise, I agree with you that dining out is more expensive in SF and NYC. I wouldn't call it drastic, but it is certainly noticeable (and the expensive scale goes much higher). But there's still Chipotle and McDonalds all over the place, so you can get an idea of exactly how much more you are paying between the cities.
Just for clarification, Simms lives in SF. I didn't respond bc I know what I spend here on food (though I don't shop at Whole Foods) and what I spend at Publix when home. Though some things are more expensive, others are cheaper and it all evens out.
What some fall into is the elitist mindset where they feel need to justify high prices. People see rents in NYC and it then becomes: it's expensive to live in NYC. Actually, that's false. It's expensive to sleep in NYC is more factual. And yes, trains are expensive. But I don't bring my truck or bike up here, why would I? $129 a month and I can go any where in the city. $30 round trip if I want to go to Long Island or the Jersey Shore for the weekend. Can you pay gas, insurance, maintenance, car payment on about $180 a month? I cant. NYers love to complain, but we all know how good we have it.
Keep in mind, this is just NYC. I can't comment for SF. There they may pay exorbitant fees to eat.
Some restaurants/bakeries in jax use local produce and meats.
If you feel like your being ripped off by purchasing food from jax restaurants then don't go there. I like the restaurants in jax. My food doesn't taste like it was microwaved and it doesn't taste old either.
I like how some of the restaurants/bakeries in jax tell you where their ingredients came from. I can't wait for more restaurants to open up in jax!
Quote from: JayBird on July 31, 2014, 04:22:16 PM
Just for clarification, Simms lives in SF.
Edit:
Simms pays $87 for a haircut.
Simms knows more about finance than you
Simms knows more about market trends than you
Simms knows more about city planning than you
Simms NOW knows more about restaurants than you
Simms believes every city he lives in is better than Jax
Simms > Chuck Norris
Fixed! 8)
^^You can't possibly think that is a complete list for Simms?
I think what this post has proved to us all is that Simms needs to buy a Flowbee and cut his own hair.
Quote from: edjax on July 31, 2014, 05:26:40 PM
^^You can't possibly think that is a complete list for Simms?
The last line kind of summed it all up... ;D
Quote from: exnewsman on July 31, 2014, 05:35:38 PM
I think what this post has proved to us all is that Simms needs to buy a Flowbee and cut his own hair.
He must have some real pretty hair. ::)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 31, 2014, 05:51:02 PM
Quote from: edjax on July 31, 2014, 05:26:40 PM
^^You can't possibly think that is a complete list for Simms?
The last line kind of summed it all up... ;D
Good point!
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 31, 2014, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: JayBird on July 31, 2014, 04:22:16 PM
Just for clarification, Simms lives in SF.
Edit:
Simms pays $87 for a haircut.
Simms knows more about finance than you
Simms knows more about market trends than you
Simms knows more about city planning than you
Simms NOW knows more about restaurants than you
Simms believes every city he lives in is better than Jax
Simms > Chuck Norris
Fixed! 8)
Lmao ... Thx for the edit
QuoteWhat some fall into is the elitist mindset where they feel need to justify high prices. People see rents in NYC and it then becomes: it's expensive to live in NYC. Actually, that's false. It's expensive to sleep in NYC is more factual. And yes, trains are expensive. But I don't bring my truck or bike up here, why would I? $129 a month and I can go any where in the city. $30 round trip if I want to go to Long Island or the Jersey Shore for the weekend. Can you pay gas, insurance, maintenance, car payment on about $180 a month? I cant. NYers love to complain, but we all know how good we have it.
I think its, like you said, what capacity are you involved in the city that would determine high prices overall. Are you living there, just visiting for a while, bring your car, have kids, etc? All this stuff really matters. For me, as a person still chained to Jax but living for a while in another city, it was def expensive living. But the food in DC, and virtually at any place you go, pound for pound was more expensive simply because of where it was & what the city has become. Dives can be found, but they're not easy or plentiful. High profile places here in Jax (like say Cool Moose) w its cheaper options wouldn't be the same DC & you'd have to really go searching to find it, if you ever did. Any place there that's higher profile is gonna be much more pricey.
BTW, you're correct that NYC overall isn't too bad on the wallet for living when factoring in everything. For what its worth, DC has become higher in terms of rents & overall living expenses than most of NYC (even Manhattan) & you can live better there. I know people who have done both & they say the same thing, as does poking around online & rent shopping. I don't know what's happened, but its sorta gotten out of control. Maybe its the fact that the District is much smaller & not a lot of space to work with, supply & demand, the types of high paying government jobs (or jobs that tie into that) in the area, etc.
I don't know if I'd bother ever trying to live there full time again. Not worth it IMO. And certainly not when you consider that NYC can be had for cheaper, has a train that actually runs everywhere you'd ever want to go & for 24 hours, etc. NYC = World class city that can prove it. DC = Wannabe world class city that wants to go ahead & charge you for it just because.
Quote from: edjax on July 31, 2014, 06:06:52 PM
Quote from: exnewsman on July 31, 2014, 05:35:38 PM
I think what this post has proved to us all is that Simms needs to buy a Flowbee and cut his own hair.
He must have some real pretty hair. ::)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kCAFkfFLQQ
At least he isn't in Bev Hills... http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/04/the_400_haircut.html
QuoteHigh profile places here in Jax (like say Cool Moose)
Oh dear God, if that dump qualifies for high profile, we are in serious trouble here in Jax!