This morning (July 28) Lake Ray IV, son of Florida Representative Lake Ray III, posted the following to his Facebook:
Quote
FORT CAROLINE HAS BEEN FOUND!!!! After nearly 450 years of being lost, I'm pleased to announce that after years of searching, Ft Caroline has been located. The team consisted of my father, Lake Ray, III, Mark Lloyd and myself. A press conference is planned for tomorrow at 10:30 to release the location. Details and location of the press conference to be released this afternoon. This is the find of the century. I'm truly blessed to have been part of this team!
The post has started to make the rounds on the internet.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 28, 2014, 08:57:17 AM
This morning (July 28) Lake Ray IV, son of Florida Representative Lake Ray III, posted the following to his Facebook:
Quote
FORT CAROLINE HAS BEEN FOUND!!!! After nearly 450 years of being lost, I'm pleased to announce that after years of searching, Ft Caroline has been located. The team consisted of my father, Lake Ray, III, Mark Lloyd and myself. A press conference is planned for tomorrow at 10:30 to release the location. Details and location of the press conference to be released this afternoon. This is the find of the century. I'm truly blessed to have been part of this team!
The post has started to make the rounds on the internet.
Highly skeptical, but if it's true hopefully it will put the "Ft. Caroline actually in Georgia" thing to rest.
^Yes, definitely. For anyone interested, the "Fort Caroline in Georgia" hypothesis was discussed at Metro Jacksonville here (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=20868.0). It was proposed by Fletcher Crowe and Anita Spring, who believe the fort was actually on the Altamaha River in Georgia.
This theory is interesting, but the French and Spanish documentary evidence points to the the St. Johns River. It has been specifically challenged by Robert Thunen (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-02-21/story/scholars-say-ancient-fort-caroline-nowhere-near-jacksonville) of UNF and Chuck Meide (http://www.blogstaugustinelighthouse.org/blog/in_the_news/lamp_disputes_new_fort_carolin.php) of the St. Augustine Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program.
Incidentally, Crowe and Spring's theory is similar to one proposed by Richard Thornton, a Georgia architect who promotes a number of fringe theories about southeastern history. For instance, he claims the Mayans built pyramids in Georgia. That was discussed at Metro Jacksonville here (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,14006.0.html).
It will be interesting to see what exactly it is the Rays have found.
Tacachale, I believe the cannons displayed at Yellow Bluff Fort are Spanish, they are said to have come from the St. Johns River, perhaps one of the early dredging projects. I wonder if that story could be traced back if it might not lend a hand to whatever the Ray's have? Have you ever heard this story?
No, I hadn't heard that before. I'll have to look that up. I'm very interested to see whatever it is the Rays have found.
I drove by Darien GA last night thinking about this. I hope this is the real deal!!!
We live only a few miles from the Fort Caroline Monument. I love this area. Can't wait to hear details on this!
I'm guessing that it is Pauline Island.
[evil Charles Hunter]
Maybe it is on Lake Ray's property on Fort Caroline Road, next to the Dames Point Bridge - wonder how much the Park Service will pay for it?
[/eCH]
Is anyone going to the presser/liveblogging? I'm stuck at work or I'd be there in a heartbeat. Is it going to be covered by local media? I would hope so, this is super exciting!
I haven't heard anything about this from the media, although Fort Caroline has been in the news recently.
Hello all. Long time lurker. First time poster. Here is what I found on Lake Ray's Facebook: Please join me at 10:30 at the Jacksonville Historical Society for the Fort Caroline discovery press conference.
Just a couple of pictures so far on the Twitter feed. https://twitter.com/Jax_History/status/494134907312934913
From the Jacksonville Historical Society Twitter feed:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtuBU2XCIAAzQVX.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtuFFFXCEAIbQ5w.jpg:large)
Does anyone have any real information about what was presented today?
Keeping an eye on it. Nothing so far.
From jacksonville.com
The original site of the long-lost Fort Caroline is now said to be in Jacksonville.
The 450-year-old site of Florida's first French colony is said to be in on a small island between Mayport and Queen's Harbour, Florida Rep. Ray Lake announced Tuesday.
The validity of the claim is still being tested, but Lake said he's confident about the site's location. The announcement comes five months after scholars said the original site was 70 miles north of Jacksonville on the Altamaha River in Georgia.
Finding the original site of Fort Caroline has been a hundreds-year-old mystery that Northeast Florida historians have long since trying to solve. The fort was established in 1562. It was attacked by Spanish soldiers from St. Augustine and ultimately abandoned.
Meredith Rutland: (904) 359-4161
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-07-29/story/site-long-lost-fort-caroline-now-said-be-jacksonville#ixzz38sFoEAVE
From jaxdailyrecord.com
He's asked for the exact location to not be revealed to ensure it remains intact while his findings are investigated.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543533
He found coal, pieces of what may be pewter dishes, and slag.
Thanks cowford. I'm curious to see how this develops.
My guess is its a semi attached island off Buckhorn Creek or in that area. That would fit with the Timucuan/meteor fire story off Colorinda Creek. Just my 2 cents. I hope this is for real!
This sounds like an MJ kayaking expedition in the making!
Greenfield Islands just north of Queen's Harbor neighborhood looks like a possibility.
Quote from: uga_jax on July 29, 2014, 04:08:11 PM
Greenfield Islands just north of Queen's Harbor neighborhood looks like a possibility.
Possibly. The Jacksonville.com article has been updated to reflect that the site they are investigating is between Mayport and Buck Island, and not Queen's Harbor.
Well, that was a little too easy. PROTIP: Do not base your proof images off of google maps images if you're trying to keep a site secret.
(http://i.imgur.com/1yJ4hN9.png)
Which is here: 30.375426, -81.450881
(http://i.imgur.com/qy1JGyt.png)
Ha! Nice work, Loki.
So does this put the "Ft Caroline was in GA" theories to rest?
No necessarily. Apparently archaeologists have checked that site before and not found much conclusive evidence that that is in fact Fort Caroline. While it fits the profile, it is going to take some more digging (see what I did there) to determine if that is a fact. Though, the profile of that island and the location does not lend itself to retaining much archaeological data, as it looks like it has been swept many times over (you can even see this going through the google earth past images.)
Loki, do you know when that site was investigated before?
I'm not quite sure, unfortunately. I'll ask some of my local archaeologist friends and see if they know.
Alot can happen in 500 years, but this one isn't making sense.
1943 aerial showing St Johns Bluff where Fort San Mateo was supposed to be and the island where they say Fort Caroline was.
As you can see there was some significant dredging that took place post 1943 to open up the Intercoastal
(http://128.227.24.32:8080/ImageServer/imageserver?res=4&viewwidth=1024&viewheight=1024&rotation=0&filename=UF%5C00%5C07%5C17%5C41%5C00006%5C12031_1943_6C_17.jp2)
1856 topo shows the same islet as a small grove of trees. This was before the St. Johns was dredged.
(http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/bigs/cgs05940.jpg)
The river is virtually unrecognizable today compared to that era, channels have been dredged and maintained and many if not most of the islands in our river today are simply spoil sites where bottom muck is pumped out and dumped. Even the natural islands have changed because of the currents moving around the newer ones. This will be a tough find.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 29, 2014, 04:30:38 PM
Ha! Nice work, Loki.
Could be my friends but as an old military guy, I don't like the artillery angles. Consider that a cannon of that era could easily fire a shell from the Castillo in St. Augustine and hit the lighthouse, some of the larger guns had even longer ranges.
Here are some Spanish guns from the same era with the respective ranges and loads. The walls had pointed or triangular bastions so men on the wall could cover each other while under attack. The ditch or moat should slow the attacking soldiers exposing them to enfilading fire from men in the various bastions. After about the mid 1400's cannon dictated that the walls be lower and hopefully absorbent of explosions. For effective fire you need different firing angles and I doubt any designers of a fortress would have exposed a long straight wall to the sea lane.
Play with this on Loki's map, Spanish guns from the same period.
Falcón - 3 to 4 pound ball between 417 and 2,500 yards/1.42 miles
Pasavolante - 1 to 15 pound ball between 500 and 4,166/yards 2.36 miles
Media sacre - 5 to 7 pound ball between 417 and 3,750 yards/2.13 miles
Media culebrina - 10 to 18 pound ball between 833 and 5,000 yards/2.84 miles
Culebrina - 20, 24, 25, 30, 40, 50 pound balls between 1,742 and 6,666 yards/3.78 miles
I read many years ago that the ruins of a Spanish outpost were under the runways of the Mayport NAS. Is there any chance the Spanish built on the remains of the French fort?
From what I've read the Spanish did occupy the site and renamed the fort San Mateo. If the findings are true I wonder if the remnants are from the French or the Spanish?
Spanish maps show Fort San Mateo up on St Johns Bluff.
Laudennaire stated he could see the French ships anchored off Mayport from Caroline. I don't think that possible on a islet near mile point at sea level.
At least it sounds as if the fort was around here somewhere, even if the exact location may remain a mystery. The river has changed quite a bit.
Here's your English fortress (below the Spanish American War Battery-Which should be open to the public and preserved, perhaps with freeway style barriers on each side to protect the homeowners?), does make you wonder.
(http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/habshaer/fl/fl0100/fl0161/sheet/00001r.jpg)
I am seeing that this potentially could cause issues with the Jaxport Mile Point waterway project. This sudden find by Ray just about a year after he applied and was not selected for the JaxPort CEO position. Hmmmm. Not likely a connection but you never know with the Jax old boy network.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 30, 2014, 12:29:53 PM
Here's your English fortress (below the Spanish American War Battery-Which should be open to the public and preserved, perhaps with freeway style barriers on each side to protect the homeowners?), does make you wonder.
(http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/habshaer/fl/fl0100/fl0161/sheet/00001r.jpg)
This map makes sense. The dredging of the St Johns started in earnest in the late 1880's and began to change the currents. There is a log entry from a river trader that he saw the remains of the "old spanish fort" when passing through in the late 1870's which was gone 10 years later. This is probably why they poured so much rip rap after the dredging. It was eroding the way the bluff.
So sad.
Lake Ray may be the biggest cheerleader for JaxPort....I doubt he is intentionally affecting the Mile Point project in any way.
Bummer. The search goes on!
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-06-02/story/another-search-old-fort-caroline-features-high-hopes-then-disappointment (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-06-02/story/another-search-old-fort-caroline-features-high-hopes-then-disappointment)
I spoke to Buzz Thunen at UNF a couple months ago about this, and he was very confident that this wouldn't be the location. It likely didn't even exist in the 1560s. Oh well, at least we know another place where the fort is not.
If they did find anything east of St John's Bluff, it could be stuff that washed down the river in the 1800's and landed on sand bars downstream.
My other thought is that the Timuacuan might have rummaged the ruins after the French chased off the Spanish and the relics would have been scattered through the river delta.