Are there any safety upgrades that could be made to the Buckman Bridge that would prevent yesterday's tragedy from happening again? There's been at least 2 people that have been tossed off the bridge in recent memory with the same outcome as yesterday. A few more have gone over and lived.
Driving over it today, I noticed how low the shoulder barricades are. I'm not a highway engineer, but it seems like some kind of heighten barrier or restraint mechanism could at least catch some of the cars that fly over due to auto-accidents.
Jump to 1:34 no changes have been made, and there are no plans to make any
http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?&width=100%25&height=100%25&flashID=myExperience3679032504001&playerID=2503332981001&playerKey=AQ~~%2CAAACG-Z7hDk~%2CmkwlxmFZxJU1j5JweTbFlORrLvbtxm8s&%40videoPlayer=3679032504001&includeAPI=true&templateLoadHandler=cmg.brightcove.player7620511.onTemplateLoad&templateReadyHandler=brightcove%5B%22templateReadyHandlermyExperience3679032504001%22%5D&wmode=transparent&isVid=true&isUI=true&dynamicStreaming=true&linkBaseURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.actionnewsjax.com%2Fvideos%2Fnews%2Fbuckman-bridge-death-safety-questions%2FvCjYwh%2F&htmlFallback=true&autoStart=false&debuggerID=&originalTemplateReadyHandler=cmg.brightcove.player7620511.onTemplateReady&startTime=1405608036592
And from the article:
"I've not seen any concerns over the safety of the bridge," said FDOT spokesman Ron Tittle.
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/fdot-will-take-buckman-safety-concerns-bridge-desi/ngg65/#sthash.xVbm2gYW.dpuf
So it's cool everyone, the government says we're safe!
Other than lowering the speed limit to 55, I don't see it happening, and that may not even prevent it.
You have to think that due to the sheer width of the span, it leaves a lot of room for a vehicle to travel almost perpendicular to the walls at a high rate of speed. Think Nascar... the cars are zipping around Daytona at nearly 200mph, and there's still been incident of the cars getting over the barricades which are nearly 30 ft high.
Physics wins.
And I'm pretty sure a poster here had it on his FB page, that there's a certain 'stigma' that there have been a lot of cars over the railing on the Buckman, but the actual number is 4, I think.
It is really interesting to me that the blame goes on the "short" walls....instead of the fact that folks for a while kept buying bigger and taller vehicles.
That said, it would not be hard to add two railings on top of the wall. That would extend the 32" height about another foot.
Most people are only doing 70-80 (hopefully) so it seems that an extra few feet may help catch a vehicle sent airborne. The cost alone of constructing that on the entire span is probably too high. 3+ miles of safety upgrades.
4 seems right. That's how many I remember. The poor soul yesterday, the one a while back that was caused by a ladder in the road and two others that have lived. The Fuller Warren has similar barricade height but we haven't heard about too many people going over that one since it's way shorter.
I'm just curious as to what safety options are out there for long bridge spans like the Buckman. I'm sure there's been a few similar accidents on the lake Pontchartrain causeway in Louisiana. 23 miles long. It just seems like there should be something in place, for incidents like this.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 17, 2014, 10:56:09 AM
It is really interesting to me that the blame goes on the "short" walls....instead of the fact that folks for a while kept buying bigger and taller vehicles.
That said, it would not be hard to add two railings on top of the wall. That would extend the 32" height about another foot.
I was thinking that as well. In my older car I couldn't see over the barricade. In my newer compact SUV I could see right over it. I'd probably be in the river if I was hit.
Combined average daily traffic on the Buckman Bridge is 121,500 vehicles (as of 2010).
So, in the last four years, approximately 177 million vehicles have crossed the Buckman.
Two have gone over the side.
A heartbreaking tragedy, but I like those odds, and see this as more of a perception issue than a reality.
Quote from: David on July 17, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
Most people are only doing 70-80 (hopefully) so it seems that an extra few feet may help catch a vehicle sent airborne. The cost alone of constructing that on the entire span is probably too high. 3+ miles of safety upgrades.
4 seems right. That's how many I remember. The poor soul yesterday, the one a while back that was caused by a ladder in the road and two others that have lived. The Fuller Warren has similar barricade height but we haven't heard about too many people going over that one since it's way shorter.
I'm just curious as to what safety options are out there for long bridge spans like the Buckman. I'm sure there's been a few similar accidents on the lake Pontchartrain causeway in Louisiana. 23 miles long. It just seems like there should be something in place, for incidents like this.
I'm no expert, but I've had my fair share of crashes. It's not so much how fast that the cars are traveling with the bridge, but the speeds that they're able to maintain while traveling perpendicular to the bridge. My guess is that the bridge is about 150ft wide? That's a lot of room to get sideways and maintain speed.
I would also guess that the average speed on the FWB is probably 15-20mph lower than that of the Buckman due to the general traffic patterns, exits, on-ramps, approaches and such.
People should stop speeding and tailgating. They drive so frequently that they have become desensitized to the danger.
Tailgating creates a lot of potential problems that otherwise wouldn't exist.
The odds are pretty good. And I feel bad for what happened yesterday, I do. But this triggered off a few thoughts on what safety options are out there. Where barricade technology is at.
So far, what we have now seems to be current. Just seems antiquated to me. It's 2014. Where are the electro-repulse magnetic beam guardrails at?? The Buckman needs a force field!
(Or what else is available realistically)
They are doing a safety study on the Lake Pontchartrain bridge.
http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/home/9513794-172/causeway-officials-to-test-new
QuoteTwo of the models to be tested involve a double railing that would add 21 inches to the barrier height. The third is a single rail that would increase the height by 12 inches. The designs also will be tested at an airfield used by the Transportation Institute in Texas, where actual vehicles will be crashed into them to determine their performance. If all goes as expected, the engineers will recommend one of the designs to the Causeway Commission.
QuoteSince 1995, 11 vehicles have gone off the Causeway and into Lake Pontchartrain. The rate seems to be increasing: There have been four in the last two years, including two fatalities. All of the accidents have happened on the southbound span, where the barriers are 6 inches lower than on the northbound side.
50 million to upgrade the railing + pull over lanes , then again Lake Pontchartrain is a much longer bridge.
Quote from: Lunican on July 17, 2014, 11:16:41 AM
People should stop speeding and tailgating if they're going be distracted by anything other than driving. They drive so frequently while texting, surfing the web, checking FB updates that they have become desensitized to the danger that'a preventable when you're able to see potential dangers happening and have time to react while it's still hundreds of yards away instead of not seeing it until it's too late because your focus was in your lap.
Tailgating Not paying attention to the road ahead of you creates a lot of potential problems that otherwise wouldn't exist.
Now that I'm off of my soapbox, I can say that I've taken several courses that have taught me how to drive offensively rather than defensively. I've raced both cars and motorcycles. You learn to anticipate rather than react, and anyone that's ridden with me can attest that it's eerie how I seem to 'see' things happen before they do.
Case in point, I was riding down Blanding on my motorcycle with my son. 2 cars came out of a sideroad across the other lane, and somehow I KNEW the one in the back was going to come right into my lane. I noticed that he never turned his head to the right, he was just mimicking the car ahead and swung out into the next lane over. I checked ahead, had time to ride up onto the empty sidewalk to avoid the collision and stopped before the next driveway. Not a scratch on anyone.
I'm not saying this because I'm a great driver, because they're plenty of people paying attention, but little things like that are the difference between you reading this on MJ or you reading about, "Man & Son taken to Hospital in Near-Fatal Motorcycle Accident" in the TU.
Pay attention to everything around you; make sure you have an out. I really believe that people should be required to take more than just a basic driving test to get a license. It's like I tell newbie bikers, anyone can roll their wrist and go 180 in a straight line. Come talk to me after you've learned how to slow down from 180, while making that corner, and avoiding the slow car in the right lane.
I am terrified of the Buckman. Now that I stay deep on the WS I use it more often than I did in the past. Each time I need to use it Im praying the entire time Im crossing it! I also fear getting side swiped and my trucking flipping over into the water, because it can happen as we see. I thought it would be common sense to make the barriers higher. You build a bridge ON the water, and have little or nothing to protect people? Thats just crazy to me
It's a beautiful bridge, but people drive crazy on it! And what's the deal with ladders falling off into the roadway constantly? I try to avoid.
Who remembers when it was only two lanes in each direction and how scary it was driving over it?
Quote from: fsujax on July 17, 2014, 02:32:40 PM
Who remembers when it was only two lanes in each direction and how scary it was driving over it?
I don't remember the Buckman, but back home, we had the Broad River Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_River_Bridge) in SC that connected Beaufort and Jasper county. It was a 2-lane drawbridge that was about 2miles long. They rebuilt it probably 10 years ago or so to a 6 lane bridge with a peak in the center for the sailboats.
I used to bike over it 3-4 times a week and somehow I'm still here.
Edit: I checked the wiki, I guess it's only 4 lanes.
Quote from: fsujax on July 17, 2014, 02:32:40 PM
Who remembers when it was only two lanes in each direction and how scary it was driving over it?
I do. My older brother broke down on it sometime in the mid 1980's in a Chevrolet Chevette and we had to push it quite a ways before we finally get a tow to Orange Park. Good times!
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2014, 11:08:32 AM
Combined average daily traffic on the Buckman Bridge is 121,500 vehicles (as of 2010).
So, in the last four years, approximately 177 million vehicles have crossed the Buckman.
Two have gone over the side.
A heartbreaking tragedy, but I like those odds, and see this as more of a perception issue than a reality.
Well said. I don't have any issues crossing the Buckman. The main perilous situations of crossing just about any bridge are avoiding the 'neck and neck' driving, being aware of the space around your vehicle (the 'book' tell you to maintain your speed when someone is tailgating, that is BS IMO, I speed up and let them through) and keep the highways 'open' avoiding these dangerous lane-switching 'narrow windows' like what most likely lead to that unfortunate accident.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 17, 2014, 11:09:54 AM
Quote from: David on July 17, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
Most people are only doing 70-80 (hopefully) so it seems that an extra few feet may help catch a vehicle sent airborne. The cost alone of constructing that on the entire span is probably too high. 3+ miles of safety upgrades.
4 seems right. That's how many I remember. The poor soul yesterday, the one a while back that was caused by a ladder in the road and two others that have lived. The Fuller Warren has similar barricade height but we haven't heard about too many people going over that one since it's way shorter.
I'm just curious as to what safety options are out there for long bridge spans like the Buckman. I'm sure there's been a few similar accidents on the lake Pontchartrain causeway in Louisiana. 23 miles long. It just seems like there should be something in place, for incidents like this.
I'm no expert, but I've had my fair share of crashes. It's not so much how fast that the cars are traveling with the bridge, but the speeds that they're able to maintain while traveling perpendicular to the bridge. My guess is that the bridge is about 150ft wide? That's a lot of room to get sideways and maintain speed.
I would also guess that the average speed on the FWB is probably 15-20mph lower than that of the Buckman due to the general traffic patterns, exits, on-ramps, approaches and such.
Some quick math on the bridge width - it is two bridges, each with four driving lanes (about 12 feet), and two break-down lanes (about 10 feet)
4 x 12 + 2 x 10 = 48 + 20 = 68 feet each
Enforcing the speed is difficult - if the cops are on the bridge, people will slow down behind and around them; if they aren't on the bridge, there is no practical way for them to catch speeders.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 17, 2014, 08:09:37 PM
Some quick math on the bridge width - it is two bridges, each with four driving lanes (about 12 feet), and two break-down lanes (about 10 feet)
4 x 12 + 2 x 10 = 48 + 20 = 68 feet each
Damn! Scaled off of Google Earth at the same measurement. I forgot that the bridge is split...
I get the points about driving habits, but what if money weren't an issue and the barrier upgrades needed to happen. What could be put in place to prevent the average size/weighted vehicle from flipping off the side of the bridge? A higher concrete barrier wall, cable barriers on top of the current barricade?
This is probably a question that would require some serious resources, but i'm trying to imagine the point(s) of impact and how much space the vehicle cleared the barrier by.
Also, thought I was looking up yesterday's story on Jacksonvile.com and turns out it's from 2010
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-03-01/story/fdot_buckman_bridge_not_to_blame_in_fatal_accident
And the other one involving the ladder in the roadway was before that, bringing the fatality total (from this type of accident) to 3 I believe. 4
http://www.news4jax.com/news/questions-about-raising-buckman-bridge-barriers/26983742
Quote from: fsujax on July 17, 2014, 02:32:40 PM
Who remembers when it was only two lanes in each direction and how scary it was driving over it?
The four lane Buckman used to remind of the four lane Howard Frankland in Tampa, even though it was a single span:
(http://www.oldride.com/carphotos/gallery/587660859568.jpg)
However, the scariest bridge I've driven across is the old John Grace Bridge in Charleston.
(http://www.emporis.com/images/show/457096-Large.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/v/O5r1pRA0e5U
Speaking of flipping over the bridge, when's the last time this has happened on the Dames Point?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Jacksonville_FL_Dames_Point_Bridge_south02.jpg/800px-Jacksonville_FL_Dames_Point_Bridge_south02.jpg)
The Dames Point scares people way more than the Buckman! But the barricades do appear to be a similar height. Speed and length of the span definitely play a role on the Buckman.
And forgive me if I'm geeking out a bit about road barrier technology. It's from working around all the design/build guys at my current employer. The debate about if it's needed is one thing, but i'm really curious as to what the perfect bridge barrier would look like.
Quote from: David on July 18, 2014, 12:02:07 AM
And forgive me if I'm geeking out a bit about road barrier technology. It's from working around all the design/build guys at my current employer. The debate about if it's needed is one thing, but i'm really curious as to what the perfect bridge barrier would look like.
Nah, it's kind of a cool discussion to have. Here's my take:
The force of the cars hitting the slightly inclined, immovable surface is what allows the cars to become airborne, right? Well, instead of raising the height or adding cables over the guardrail, why not allow for a softer impact before the cars get to the barrier. I would say using some high-tension cable attached to some sort of hydrolic arresting system that projects into the shoulder 18"-24".
Ultimately it would require some sort of retrofit on existing work as to not cause the span to be too narrow, but could be incorporated onto new projects with no problem.
But if that's too expensive and too 'out there', I guess we could use haybales... ;)
Cool idea. Haybales might work too! haha
Realistically I don't see much happening but I do like daydreaming about what safety upgrades are possible. I'm a fan of cable barriers to help catch a vehicle while airborne, but I don't know what their weight/tension/impact limits are.
For the comments about speeding, the only way to enforce it seems to be from the air. There's no safe place for the police to hide on the Buckman.
Slow driving is a problem on there too. Every once in a while you'll see someone doing 45 on the bridge for no apparent reason. No hazards, they just want to go slow.
Hay bales is a perfectly designed idea for epic fail. They deteriorate, the grass falling onto the pavement would create a Florida version of 'black ice,' there are dozens of other reasons why this would not work.
Prestressed cable barriers such as these may offer the answer.
http://www.youtube.com/v/-zGJYVe-qms?version=3&hl=en_US
http://www.youtube.com/v/MAbo3-jyzGY?hl=en_US
Old people may recall 15 to 20 years ago a car accident on the Hart bridge where the young girl was ejected from the vehicle over the rail an into the water. A fisherman collected her up and she lived. It can happen most anywhere.
Also you will recall the Shands bridge a woman on the way east in the morning was blinded by the sun and didn't see the stopping concrete truck and bounced her way into the water. She lived.
These rare accidents occur. Slow down, don't change lanes and pay attention to the car ahead not the view.