It's been about 1.5 years now since I move downtown, so I figured I'd share my experience. Hopefully some others can chip in with their experience and we can do something to make downtown a better experience for our generation...
Let me start off by saying I didn't grow up near downtown and had very little contact with it aside from Jags / Suns games growing up. Most of my views/ignorance came from those who I grew up with near the beaches. I never really had a reason to go downtown so up until recently my opinion of it was pretty poor.
What I always heard / believed:
Vagrants, Hobo's, Homeless people - what ever you want to call them are everywhere. Be with someone else at all times and have a cell phone handy just in case you come across these people. Expect to be hassled at least once.
Ghetto, murders and crime - Growing up in an area with very little crime, constant new development and very few homeless people downtown, Avondale, Brooklyn, etc were always terrifying. From my point of view and the stories I had always been told these areas were all full of crack houses, crime and based on the news reports constant murder.
Parking - This was always a reason my friends and family avoided downtown. At the beaches there were no places that required you to pay to park, you very rarely had to park in the street and all of the lots were very well maintained / lit.
Nothing to do - Why go downtown when there's no events going on? You're just going to wander around aimlessly with no shops or restaurants to visit. You're much better off / safer going to St. George Street where you don't have to pay to park on the street and there are actually things to do / see.
What I've learned / Hope will change
Vagrants While there are a lot of them, it's not as bad as a lot of other cities. As long as you avoid eye contact and stay away from Hemming Plaza / The riverwalk under the Acosta you probably won't see too many. The majority of them keep to themselves and aren't dangerous. It's annoying seeing them and I can understand how people are deterred by this, but without moving the shelters or having better loitering enforcement this will always be an issue.
Ghetto / Crime It's slightly worse than the beaches in Riverside / Avondale / Springfield / etc. I've heard of break ins and seen some vandalism, but I've never felt unsafe or like my life was in danger. Most of what I and those I grew up thinking was ghetto is just historic neighborhoods. The street parking is a little out of control in some areas, but it's what comes with the territory I suppose. It would be nice to see a parking garage near King Street and post or at least the night trolley to run more frequently...
Parking - This is one of my biggest issues living downtown. I know there have been countless studies saying there's plenty of parking, but I disagree. Most of the garages are in terrible locations or closed after a certain hour so having someone park there over night or for a late day trip is out of the question. Having visitors from out of town is a pain, because they're limited to waking up at the crack of dawn in hopes of finding an all day meter or parking in a garage that's 3 blocks down the road only to have to move out of the garage before night fall. I can't tell you how many quarters I've lost to dead meters and subsequently been fined for. The hours are terrible for those who live downtown and work normal hours as well. Typically the meters aren't monitored before 8:45 and after 5:30, but every now and then you walk out to go to work and BAM parking ticket 8:01 am on a side street no one EVER parks on. The lot prices are ridiculous for residents who are already paying a premium to live downtown so it's better for me to get $15-30 in parking tickets every other month than to pay $40 every month for a lot I only need to use 45 minutes a day. I am 110% behind removing all of the meters and having street parking first come first served. This would not only encourage people to stay downtown longer, but it would also benefit those who live downtown while taking money out of the pockets of the soul sucking parking lot owners.
Nothing to do - While there isn't much to do in the core it's still got a few quirky bars / restaurants which are fun and usually surprise my friends / family with their quality and customer base. Chomp-chomp, Volstead, Underbelly, Indochine, and Dos Gatos to name a few. My second biggest issue with downtown is that while the nightlife is passable, there is literally nothing to do during the day that is fun for my generation. The top to bottom tour was alright, roaming the streets is meh and the Landing is well the Landing.... What else am I supposed to do within walking distance? There needs to be a rock wall, 24 hour gym, that new go-kart place would've been nice in the core, a team building facility for young professionals, some daily events at Hemming Plaza that catered to younger people would be cool (for instance putt-putt with beer, up and coming bands / comedians performing, movie nights). Literally anything. I just want a couple of inexpensive things I can walk my friends over to from my place to be able to say, "See?? It's not so bad. There are some fun things to do here everyday! Not just 1 Wednesday or Sunday a month."
I know this was a lot of word vomit, but I needed to get it out, because honestly I feel like there is soooo much untapped potential for our urban core. Visiting other cities I can see that we're only a few steps away from attracting more people my age and younger. People who don't have families yet, but are willing to spend a little money to have fun. People who enjoy having several places within walking distance of there residence to hang out, be active or have fun.
Stephen Dare, as much as we get on each others nerves I feel like you had some good points in your "12 ways to fix downtown" thread. We really need to get some people active though to make something happen. I'm sick of seeing thread after thread of "hopefully 'x' happens" and "rumor- 'x' is looking to move downtown". Let's get some people together, get some signatures, raise some money and make some changes! What ever it takes to flip this city 180 from the, "Let's do some studies first" attitude to the, "Let's take a chance and try something new" attitude.
^^^Very good summary.
Couldn't agree more to remove the damn parking meters, how could this income be so critical to the City? They get money so many other ways...
Let people freely visit the Core!!! Entertainment and nightlife (and daylife) will follow!
Sounds like my tenure at 11E. Only had the London Bridge back then but we made it pretty fun. Parking was always a pain, if I had a visitor over it was like you mentioned, they had to get up early or i'd have to give up my parking spot in the garage.
With what Riverside has grown into today, i'd prefer to live there or even San Marco over downtown now.
There handful of nightlife options is a notable improvement over 10 years ago, when it was just 2 venues. At least there's near a dozen or so now. And the 7/11s are a nice upgrade over that one convenience store on Adams (not even sure if it's there anymore)
I'd be curious what the average tenure of a downtown Jax resident is. Since I've lived there I've had about a half dozen friends cycle in and out of 11E after a year or two. You don't get that sense of long established community that you do in other neighborhoods. We still need way more residential options in the immediate downtown area, but it seems like the market is geared towards Brooklyn/Riverside lately.
Very good insight @jaxjaguar! I'm working on a project that will address some of the "nothing to do" points you made. I hope to be able to make an announcement about it very soon. Great insight though, it needed to be "put out there" by someone living downtown!
Living Downtown as a Baby Boomer
I bought a townhouse in the Cathedral District 11 years ago.
Parking is rarely a problem but yeah, sometimes.
When panhandled, I've found that direct eye contact and a firm "No" to be the best approach.
Living this close to work is AWSOME.
Bar and restaurant options just keep improving slowly but steadily.
I don't really travel farther than most suburbanites for grocery, pharmacy, etc.
Really convenient for Jags, Suns, concerts.
The only real crime I've experienced is 1 attempted car break-in.
Here's what you can do in Indianapolis during the daytime for instance...
http://www.indydt.com/freeactivities.cfm
I've seen these and other similar games in several other cities and they always seem to be popular... Friendship fountain next to MOSH would be perfect for 2 or 3 games like this, another 1 in Hemming Plaza and 1 in the park on the other side of Main street across from the library would be great for the kids in the area / be in visible areas where people frequently drive or walk by. It would also encourage people to walk around a little, take pictures and explore areas they normally wouldn't go to.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LJuTDdEqGx8/Ubf8FTX0JcI/AAAAAAAAGYk/AP9YVYyq8yo/s1600/DSC_0061.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LJuTDdEqGx8/Ubf8FTX0JcI/AAAAAAAAGYk/AP9YVYyq8yo/s1600/DSC_0061.JPG)
As another baby boomer, I'm pretty psyched to read jaguar's summary. And I'm happy to see the steady increase in the number of night spots. But I agree that there are some fundamentals missing. Why do I have to drive to get groceries? Why do I have to cross the river to find a Sunday morning breakfast joint? Why is downtown "closed" during the weekends? Where is the retail? Why do I have to drive to Regency to get simple home repair junk?
I really hope Berkman 2 gets turned into apartments. Imagine what a few hundred more millenials could do to downtown. We're counting on Jaguar and his buddies to fix it. That's where the real power is.
I agree about the grocery store thing. Winn Dixie is relatively close (though I will literally never go here unless I plan on getting mugged) as is the new Fresh Market, but there should be something immediately downtown or at least have the SkyWay extended over to the Fresh Market... Ultimately I would love to see the Farmers Market moved to the core or at least part of it as I stated in my old thread... http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=21169.0 (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=21169.0)
Thanks for the post and thoughts, JJ! Great to see someone with fresh ideas and excitement.
Winn Dixie downtown isn't that bad is it? I don't go at night, but I've been maybe a dozen times before. There are always police (they have a substation on site) and it feels ok to me...from a safety standpoint.
Yes, I too hope the skyway is extended into Brooklyn by 2017.
WD isn't a bad store, and there is always police presence. But it's not a place I would walk to from Bay Street. It's clearly on the sketchy side of downtown. You WILL get panhandled in the parking lot, in case that bothers you.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on July 17, 2014, 03:33:44 PM
I agree about the grocery store thing. Winn Dixie is relatively close (though I will literally never go here unless I plan on getting mugged)
This is stupid. I live 2 blocks from the store, have been there over 100 times in the 8+ years I've lived in Jax, and never once have I even felt threatened.
very friendly people, and a quality store. But it does have a sketchy vibe because of the police presence, the occasional panhandler, and the random guy getting cuffed by the PoPo. Still, I'd like to see a good bodega closer to the river with fresh meat and produce.
Maybe "literally never go" was a little extreme, but I definitely don't feel as safe their as I do in riverside. I try to stay away from that side of town due to the panhandlers and police presence. It just gives me bad vibes. When my friends are in town they feel much more at home (as do I) at the Riverside Publix. It's a little on the small side, but other than the Asian lady that's always on that corner, I feel like it's a much better area to try to win over people new to the area.
When I'm feeling Publix, I prefer the Atlantic/University location. It's about the same distance as R-side and a newer full size store. I'm also fine with Winn Dixie but usually just for incidentals.
Something I noticed on my trips to Houston, St. Petersburg and Atlanta recently is the severe lack of lighting downtown / non working water fountains. Our downtown is extremely poorly lit on pretty much every street except Laura, Bay and part of Adams. Even the Riverwalk isn't very well lit west of the Landing. I've also noticed that maybe 1 of the 10 or so water fountains along the Riverwalk actually work. I feel like these are things that could easily be improved... Are these not low hanging fruit?
^ I think that is a large part of it. Most people say downtown doesn't "feel" safe, when it usually is. It's a perception issue. Dim lighting, transients - which aren't a problem if there's enough people around, it's when it's just you and 6 of them, walking down the dimly lit Riverwalk after dark that creates an unsafe feeling. But the biggest threat they'll present is they'll ask you for change.
Quote from: David on July 23, 2014, 10:01:58 AM
^ I think that is a large part of it. Most people say downtown doesn't "feel" safe, when it usually is. It's a perception issue. Dim lighting, transients - which aren't a problem if there's enough people around, it's when it's just you and 6 of them, walking down the dimly lit Riverwalk after dark that creates an unsafe feeling. But the biggest threat they'll present is they'll ask you for change.
^this 100%. My girlfriend / other lady friends who aren't from the area constantly tell me how they would never consider walking around downtown without me around or go near the Riverwalk at night by themselves. Better lighting, more working water fixtures and maybe a slight increase in the bike cops and people would start feeling a little more safe. Hearing the stories about people being mugged / part of the knock out game on the Riverwalk and in Memorial Park isn't very comforting to me though... and I'm not normally scared to go out at night alone.
Yeah, the basic essentials of urban living are largely absent in DT Jax. Most want large sexy projects. I'd be happy starting off with clean lit parks and streets. The lack of lighting was one of the first things that stood out to me, when I came to town.
Since I'm unsure how much longer I'll be living in the core, I'm planning on doing a couple of pros and cons photo journals and posting them here. I think one of the topics will be on how bad the lighting is... What do you think Lake? Do you think it could help spark something? Lol
I'm not sure if you guys have any advice, but there has been a pretty big increase in the amount of homeless people loitering near my building recently. One guy in particular is literally sleeping on the sidewalk next to my car almost every night. I've tried calling the non-emergency line several times, but they've proven to be kind of useless as they don't show up half the time.
Is there any other action I can take that would be more successful? Between this and the recent jump in parking tickets, myself and 2 of my buddies are considering leaving downtown... We've tried staying as long as possible and supporting the local bars and restaurants, but the city isn't doing it's part to keep us here.
Unfortunately you'll never be far from transients in a city. The best you can hope for is cracking down on nuisance behavior. My experience with calling the police is that you often have to call multiple times before they'll come (a police officer friend even told me that). In this case, you should also talk to your building manager and say it's becoming a serious issue that's making you consider leaving the building. They may be able to push the police into getting the guy to move.
Yeah, I mean the one time they did come out the guy was spitting on my car. I asked them to follow up with me, but never received a call or knock. When I went to leave at 8:17 in the morning not only did I have a nice $15 parking ticket, but I also had dried saliva all over my drivers mirror and windshield >:(
There have been 2 separate instances where gun shots have been fired across the street within the last month. 3 or 4 officers showed up, but they never followed up. There hasn't been any increase in patrol. They just asked some questions and then searched for shells for about 15 minutes and left.
Just venting here, but I understand that there "free times" for the meters, but myself and 90% of the residents purposely park on side streets that no one uses during the day. It's absolutely insane that they even monitor/have these meters. Whoever the new meter reader is has become a HUGE nuisance as he's been targeting the residents who are usually gone from 830-6 for work. For the past 2 weeks he's ticketed every single car on the 2 block stretch right at 8:01, about 3 days a week. He even ticketed me while I was letting my car warm up when we had that cold snap last week....
^^^^Sounds like you gave DT Jax a true old college try and the city failed you. Get out of dodge, move to Riverside or San Marco for a far superior urban living experience with more to do.
You should write an editorial for the FTU describing in a nutshell your experiences. It's one thing to complain that a homeless person is sleeping on your building stoop in SF, where you'll get laughed out of town and everyone just deals with it. But it's a city notorious for its homeless/drug problem and your in it to win it with hundreds of thousands of other people every day. But Jacksonville should be competing with other "clean" sunbelt cities trying to attract millennials and build up their downtowns. No city I've ever visited and liked had a ratio of normal:homeless like Jax has. It sounds cruel, but tuck the homeless away elsewhere and crack down on them (just don't bus them to SF like every other city does, we DON'T need anymore - we spend $200M/yr out of city budget on homeless services, including power washing teams for the sidewalks!!!!!)
When I go to Omaha, Denver, Austin, Charlotte, or even Nashville to a lesser extent (pleasantly rugged city), the downtown is cleaned up and it's obvious that city leaders are trying to keep downtown residents happy and trying to convey a certain message to visitors of their respective cities (clearly a positive message - one of cleanliness, safety, vibrancy, pro-business, growth, etc). There is definitely an air of competence that I feel in those cities, like people in charge know what they are doing.
Jacksonville city leaders are all super pathetic and not all even know it. It's such an insular place that I bet any one of you that there are people working for the city that honestly think that downtown is ok and that Jacksonville is doing just great at basically everything. It's the same attitude I get from people who are Ortega natives who just haven't left and honestly believe that Ortega is one of the real fabulous neighborhoods filled with fabulous people in the country, when it's average at best (and filled with those people).
I think a blistering, no searing article is long overdue. Please write one, or two, or three, or more, detailing your experiences, what you think is needed, what's currently missing or what shouldn't be there but is, where you think the problem lies. If your downtown buddies are also equally unsatisfied, have them write too!
^^^You should not have to put up with too much shit if you are living in DT Jax. The pros need to outweigh the cons. You aren't living in NYC or SF where it's expected that you will live in a shithole shoebox and miss out on the conveniences of things like cars, elevators, AC, that you will occasionally have to step over dead/dying people on the sidewalk and shrug it off, etc etc. You are living in a great city so it's all worth it.
But in Jax, downtown living needs to be *cool*/*awesome*, not a chore. Our city leaders don't seem to get that.
If I ever moved back downtown, I would want a safe place for my car (which would be the first thing I buy before moving back), luxury appliances and space, a view, an abundance of awesome things to do within walking distance, no human blight (I don't care that you wannabe Jacksonville hippies have a problem with that word - stuff it and eat it), etc etc. I would want visitor parking because I'd want to be in the "cool spot" that everyone wants to come visit.
From what it sounds like, and from others I know who have tried DT Jax, people don't like to come downtown. Why live DT and trek out to Riverside, San Marco, or the beaches to see people all the time who refuse to come to you because of lack of things to do and potential late night safety hazards (or spit on their car)? Defeats the whole purpose.
DT Denver is the gold standard model for this, I think. Perhaps DT Portland or DT San Diego, too.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 06, 2014, 01:16:16 PM
I'm not sure if you guys have any advice, but there has been a pretty big increase in the amount of homeless people loitering near my building recently. One guy in particular is literally sleeping on the sidewalk next to my car almost every night. I've tried calling the non-emergency line several times, but they've proven to be kind of useless as they don't show up half the time.
Is there any other action I can take that would be more successful? Between this and the recent jump in parking tickets, myself and 2 of my buddies are considering leaving downtown... We've tried staying as long as possible and supporting the local bars and restaurants, but the city isn't doing it's part to keep us here.
Please contact our City Council and Mayor's office via email to express your concerns about these issues. It's on their radar and the more they hear from people who care about these issues, the apt they are to address them.
Quote from: simms3 on November 06, 2014, 05:15:41 PM
When I go to Omaha, Denver, Austin, Charlotte, or even Nashville to a lesser extent (pleasantly rugged city), the downtown is cleaned up and it's obvious that city leaders are trying to keep downtown residents happy and trying to convey a certain message to visitors of their respective cities (clearly a positive message - one of cleanliness, safety, vibrancy, pro-business, growth, etc). There is definitely an air of competence that I feel in those cities, like people in charge know what they are doing.
Jacksonville city leaders are all super pathetic and not all even know it.
You nailed it there I think - the reason for the current and past DT problems in a nutshell.
Quote from: Gunnar on November 07, 2014, 06:27:57 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 06, 2014, 05:15:41 PM
When I go to Omaha, Denver, Austin, Charlotte, or even Nashville to a lesser extent (pleasantly rugged city), the downtown is cleaned up and it's obvious that city leaders are trying to keep downtown residents happy and trying to convey a certain message to visitors of their respective cities (clearly a positive message - one of cleanliness, safety, vibrancy, pro-business, growth, etc). There is definitely an air of competence that I feel in those cities, like people in charge know what they are doing.
Jacksonville city leaders are all super pathetic and not all even know it.
You nailed it there I think - the reason for the current and past DT problems in a nutshell.
I agree
In addition to a TU letter to the editor, I would contact the DIA, the Chamber, Tony Allegretti, and everyone on the City Council. DIA is particularly sensitive to bad pub.
Secure parking? Guest parking? View? Modern appliances? You should buy that Riverplace Townhouse (formerly Berkman Townhouse) that has been foreclosed on. Probably get it for 250k, and it's right on the water.
^^^I wish all my money weren't going to pay rent/partying (lol) and I'd buy it as an investment property, heck, maybe spend a few days a year in FL and claim FL residency! Sounds like a deal, but what kind of rent can you get for it? And is it possible to rent it, or is the quota maxed out with the COA?
My only concern would be appreciation. Send the link about the listing. $250K sounds high (also on a psf basis) for a Jax townhouse compared to what I could buy in Riverside (I think). I'd want upside in value, and I'd want to profit from rent.
This discussion has really good timing. DVI is currently conducting a survey of Downtown residents about their experience living Downtown – what they like, don't like and would make their experiences better. We'd love to hear from Downtown residents who post on Metro Jacksonville. The survey takes 5 minutes or so and will be available until November 14th. Here is the link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/MWPYSGT (https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/MWPYSGT). Please share this link with your fellow Downtown residents.
^^^ Thank you. Done and done.
^exactly what osprey said
Definitely taking the survey tonight! Funny thing...many of these comments sound so much like ones Jerry Moran used to make back when he was positing on this forum. Maybe he got tired of running into the same brick wall. Regardless, I am very glad to see the torch being carried because these issues are every bit as real as the constant denial that surrounds and perpetuates them.
Summarize very good, friends! I agree with your views...
Quote from: simms3 on November 07, 2014, 02:19:37 PM
^^^I wish all my money weren't going to pay rent/partying (lol) and I'd buy it as an investment property, heck, maybe spend a few days a year in FL and claim FL residency! Sounds like a deal, but what kind of rent can you get for it? And is it possible to rent it, or is the quota maxed out with the COA?
My only concern would be appreciation. Send the link about the listing. $250K sounds high (also on a psf basis) for a Jax townhouse compared to what I could buy in Riverside (I think). I'd want upside in value, and I'd want to profit from rent.
http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/82999976_zpid/30.325293,-81.649573,30.321334,-81.655259_rect/17_zm/1_fr/?view=map
428 east bay street, 32202
As for appreciation, once Berkman 2 is done and Khan develops the Shipyards, what do you think will happen to the market?
Wasn't there an issue with construction quality on the Berkman or did that only affect the parking garage?
Quote from: downtownbrown on November 10, 2014, 09:22:30 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 07, 2014, 02:19:37 PM
^^^I wish all my money weren't going to pay rent/partying (lol) and I'd buy it as an investment property, heck, maybe spend a few days a year in FL and claim FL residency! Sounds like a deal, but what kind of rent can you get for it? And is it possible to rent it, or is the quota maxed out with the COA?
My only concern would be appreciation. Send the link about the listing. $250K sounds high (also on a psf basis) for a Jax townhouse compared to what I could buy in Riverside (I think). I'd want upside in value, and I'd want to profit from rent.
http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/82999976_zpid/30.325293,-81.649573,30.321334,-81.655259_rect/17_zm/1_fr/?view=map
428 east bay street, 32202
As for appreciation, once Berkman 2 is done and Khan develops the Shipyards, what do you think will happen to the market?
Well it appears to price less than the John Gorrie condos on a psf basis. It is unique for the market. But I'm not holding my breath for Berkman 2, and certainly not Shipyards (nor am I excited at all that Khan is developing the Shipyards...he's not a developer). The surface lot next to the Hyatt could one day be a massive construction zone, though I wouldn't be holding my breath on that either.
~$150 psf seems like a good price, but this is a foreclosure it sounds like. Means someone has to pick it off in person on the county steps, right? Definitely were a ton of foreclosures in this development, that means while some people's basis is low, others who bought at $500K+ are way out of the money, and what's to prevent further foreclosures? Pricing at Berkman doesn't seem stabilized yet and it won't appreciate until it is.
This is the problem I have with living downtown and JSO... My rent is way too high and I'm getting way too many parking tickets, to literally be stepping over hobos to get in my car. This guy has slept in the same spot in the middle of the sidewalk every day for the last month.
There are also about 4 other homeless people that sleep in the bushes in the empty lot next to my building. It doesn't matter if I have my buildings security guard say something, call JSO, or ask them to move myself. They're not being punished so they don't care at all. On Saturday I saw a huge pile of human feces, covered in flies, in the grass next to my car... It was absolutely disgusting...
I asked this guy to move today and he said, "I just got out of prison, I don't have to go anywhere."
I'm sorry downtown, I tried for 2 years to give you a chance, but I can't take it anymore. The second my lease is up I'm leaving and my friends won't be far behind.
(http://i.imgur.com/wlFUUQI.jpg)
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 10, 2014, 10:31:36 AM
This is the problem I have with living downtown and JSO... My rent is way too high and I'm getting way too many parking tickets, to literally be stepping over hobos to get in my car. This guy has slept in the same spot in the middle of the sidewalk every day for the last month.
There are also about 4 other homeless people that sleep in the bushes in the empty lot next to my building. It doesn't matter if I have my buildings security guard say something, call JSO, or ask them to move myself. They're not being punished so they don't care at all. On Saturday I saw a huge pile of human feces, covered in flies, in the grass next to my car... It was absolutely disgusting...
I asked this guy to move today and he said, "I just got out of prison, I don't have to go anywhere."
I'm sorry downtown, I tried for 2 years to give you a chance, but I can't take it anymore. The second my lease is up I'm leaving and my friends won't be far behind.
(http://i.imgur.com/wlFUUQI.jpg)
That's a pretty common sight in ATL, SF, etc. However, I'd encourage you to email our City Council & Mayor's office about your concerns. This general issue is on their radar, and the more people they hear from about it, the more urgency there is the address it.
Pardon my ignorance, but who do I email? I found this page, but it's not very helpful...
http://www.coj.net/city-council/city-council-members.aspx
^ call Downtown Vision...and then let them get in touch with JSO or COJ staff
Quote from: simms3 on November 06, 2014, 05:15:41 PM
^^^^Sounds like you gave DT Jax a true old college try and the city failed you. Get out of dodge, move to Riverside or San Marco for a far superior urban living experience with more to do.
and thanks for the left coast perspective ;)
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 10, 2014, 10:31:36 AM
This is the problem I have with living downtown and JSO... My rent is way too high and I'm getting way too many parking tickets, to literally be stepping over hobos to get in my car. This guy has slept in the same spot in the middle of the sidewalk every day for the last month.
There are also about 4 other homeless people that sleep in the bushes in the empty lot next to my building. It doesn't matter if I have my buildings security guard say something, call JSO, or ask them to move myself. They're not being punished so they don't care at all. On Saturday I saw a huge pile of human feces, covered in flies, in the grass next to my car... It was absolutely disgusting...
I asked this guy to move today and he said, "I just got out of prison, I don't have to go anywhere."
I'm sorry downtown, I tried for 2 years to give you a chance, but I can't take it anymore. The second my lease is up I'm leaving and my friends won't be far behind.
(http://i.imgur.com/wlFUUQI.jpg)
TBH, your initial post on page 1 elicited more sympathy (from me). If it's just homeless people sleeping in bushes/entrances and occasional human feces, that's par for the course (anywhere). Don't come out to San Francisco lest you be absolutely shocked; you might have PTSD from such a trip.
But "rowdy homelessness" where they actually cause trouble (like become violent or harass) or congregate legitimately too thickly with no enforcement, coupled with incessant parking tickets is a last straw, I agree. And also FTR, most cities hand out parking tickets like you wouldn't believe - it's generally a huge source of revenue. I think at this point most street parking in the entire city of SF is metered, and it's $600+ within a day of pickup if your car is towed.
So to Stephen's point above, just be sure you have real perspective on the situation. Are all of the problems too much for *you* to handle, or are they really more than a city like Jacksonville should have (my initial thought was comparing Jax to other smaller cities I've been to that seemed cleaner and to have fewer homeless, but many *major* cities are actually quite gross and filled with homeless, but it's just something we deal with)?
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 10, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 06, 2014, 05:15:41 PM
^^^^Sounds like you gave DT Jax a true old college try and the city failed you. Get out of dodge, move to Riverside or San Marco for a far superior urban living experience with more to do.
and thanks for the left coast perspective ;)
Given our posting history, do you agree that Riverside and San Marco offer superior urban experiences or not? Sometimes I can't tell with you.
Quote from: Gunnar on November 10, 2014, 09:39:01 AM
Wasn't there an issue with construction quality on the Berkman or did that only affect the parking garage?
The owner of Berkman 2, Choate Construction, did their due diligence and are proceeding. They have an Atlanta developer who wants to complete the project, but of course the city can't ever make a decision about anything. Last I knew the developer was hashing it out with the DIA.
The whole story of the Berkman still confuses me.
So if I remember correctly at least the parking garage was very poorly built and this collapsed. I tried making sense of the whole thing (including the various lawsuits) but failed to do so.
What I am still wondering about is - what is the quality of the rest of the building(s) like, considering what happened to the parking garage?
What puzzles me the most is how the general contractor ended up owning the building (I know there was a lawsuit but still).
Also: Was the company that currently owns the Berkman involved in the construction of the garage in any way ?
It's not just the homeless people, I knew that would come with the territory. They have grown significantly in numbers recently, though (I assume because the weather up north is changing). With those increased numbers have come: gun shots in the parking lot across the street, human excrement, spitting on cars, pieces of cardboard and booklets in my windshield wiper every morning, people sleeping in the bushes and on the sidewalks, being hassled on a daily basis, people digging through the trash and letting it spill everywhere, people dumping out cigarette butt receptacles, witnessing 10-15 people sleeping in the U-haul building next door every morning being let out / getting dressed in broad daylight, random yelling / fights, having my bicycle kicked over and seat stolen while in the library, etc... all within a 2 month span.
Seeing the incompetence of our city council since I've joined this forum and project after project fail to come to fruition / indefinitely delayed is highly disconcerting. I have a feeling things will get "better" within the next 10 years, but at the rate things are going I'm not sure that "better" will be remotely close enough to make me want to move back.
I'll try contacting the people everyone suggested. I'm also thinking about joining DVI. Unfortunately, I don't think anything will change in time to keep me downtown. I still want to do my part, but I'm going crazy having to leave everyday to do anything, dealing with homeless people and getting fined for living somewhere no one goes. I'm ready to get out and move to Riverside or San Marco where most of the people my age / things to do are.
Did a post about how posts keep getting deleted, get deleted?
Well if you're moving out of downtown and looking for the polar opposite, it's quiet, safe, and fairly inexpensive in the JTB/Hodges/San Pablo area. Close to the beaches, Town Center, and honestly not that far from Riverside - as a 20 minute drive is a walk in the park outside of the normal, brief slowdowns in the mornings/evenings.
Downtown will need to compete with Riverside and other areas for Millennials. Jax jobs market is so concentrated in the burbs/SS that downtown isn't as appealing from a "convenience" standpoint as other downtowns that are larger/more central to their regions. Whatever Riverside is doing, DT Jax really kind of needs to do better if it wants to grow a base.
Riverside has the area's best art museum and other top cultural outlets. So even on that front Riverside offers comparatively more than DT Jax. Jax needs to think of itself as a new urbanist sunbelt city, akin to Charlotte, Denver, Austin, etc. It needs to clean up downtown. There is really no reason for Downtown Jax to be so grimy. When Chicago and New York have much cleaner downtowns (and when MEATPACKING is much cleaner than DT Jax) you know there is an issue.
If you're seeing more homeless people in DT Jax than Portland, OR, you know there is an issue.
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 01:11:13 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 10, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 06, 2014, 05:15:41 PM
^^^^Sounds like you gave DT Jax a true old college try and the city failed you. Get out of dodge, move to Riverside or San Marco for a far superior urban living experience with more to do.
and thanks for the left coast perspective ;)
Given our posting history, do you agree that Riverside and San Marco offer superior urban experiences or not? Sometimes I can't tell with you.
I'm happy living downtown...there are certainly great urban experiences to be had in San Marco and Riverside, but being able to walk to the TUPAC, Florida Theatre, MOCA, and the stadiums is pretty nice too!
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 04:31:00 PM
When Chicago and New York have much cleaner downtowns (and when MEATPACKING is much cleaner than DT Jax) you know there is an issue.
Now I'm going to have to object on the comment about NY having a much cleaner downtown. I had to work up there last Summer in the financial district. I almost threw up in my mouth daily from the smell of the trash piled up on every street corner. The amount of trash on those streets completely blew my mind.
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on November 10, 2014, 04:45:47 PM
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 04:31:00 PM
When Chicago and New York have much cleaner downtowns (and when MEATPACKING is much cleaner than DT Jax) you know there is an issue.
Now I'm going to have to object on the comment about NY having a much cleaner downtown. I had to work up there last Summer in the financial district. I almost threw up in my mouth daily from the smell of the trash piled up on every street corner. The amount of trash on those streets completely blew my mind.
You got to love New York's strongest!
^^^I guess I'm used to that. But the sidewalks are generally clean, and I'd rather lick an old gum covered sidewalk in meatpacking than an unrepaired and ill maintained sidewalk in DT Jax or some other cities that aren't good at keeping clean.
NYC, for being 200,000 people per square mile, is about as clean as it gets. Certainly a different city today than the first time I went when I was much younger. And even then it wasn't the same as when my mom lived there in the 70s :o
Here in SF, which I've heard described as both *disgusting* (same - trash on corners, LOTS of homeless, older imposing buildings, etc) and pristine (by rich people who visit and literally only see their friend's neighborhood in Pacific Heights), there are crews that power wash the heavily used sidewalks, some almost every day (especially those where the visitors are). No matter the obstacles, image is everything. Jax's obstacles really aren't so great when you compare to what other cities face. It's a new city with mostly new buildings, an ideal climate for landscaping, and it's small/not dense and I would think thus easy to keep fixed up. I guess not...
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 04:55:13 PM
NYC, for being 200,000 people per square mile, is about as clean as it gets.
Bingo
^^^Likewise, Jacksonville, for being 1,000 ppsm and for being a "new" city is about as dirty as it gets. Just my opinion. Some can say resources are spread thin with the low density, but there's got to be an enforceably inequitable balance between $$$ going to sprawling subdivisions/master planned communities in the burbs (i.e. CODs/master developers/enforced development/infrastructure fees and contingency buckets), and city resources going to the heart of the city, which is what visitors see and comment on when they return to wherever they came from.
Interesting and relevant articles (takeaways for Jax...i.e. everything costs money, ways to boost effectiveness and efficiency).
http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Salt-Lake-City-a-model-for-S-F-on-homeless-5587357.php
http://www.triplepundit.com/2013/05/hult-gov-policy-homelessness-government-track/
http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/sf-spends-1657-million-on-homeless-but-its-still-not-enough/Content?oid=2730887
What percentage of Jacksonville's annual budget would $200M be? Likewise, are there things that Salt Lake City is doing (public and private) that Jacksonville could be doing? Can Jax afford a solution? Would tax rates need to be raised to get anything done?
Don't downtown building / lot owners pay property taxes ? That should cover city maintenance costs. Unless money is going elsewhere.
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 05:27:40 PM
^^^Likewise, Jacksonville, for being 1,000 ppsm and for being a "new" city is about as dirty as it gets. Just my opinion.
agreed, it is just an opinion. and somewhat misleading at that. You can't say Jax. has 1000 persons per square mile and NYC has 200,000. Sorry, that is simply not true.
And as for downtown sidewalks being dirty, are you going off your experience living here years ago? I ask because DVI has been regularly pressure washing them for the last 5+ years.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 11, 2014, 08:14:21 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 05:27:40 PM
^^^Likewise, Jacksonville, for being 1,000 ppsm and for being a "new" city is about as dirty as it gets. Just my opinion.
agreed, it is just an opinion. and somewhat misleading at that. You can't say Jax. has 1000 persons per square mile and NYC has 200,000. Sorry, that is simply not true.
And as for downtown sidewalks being dirty, are you going off your experience living here years ago? I ask because DVI has been regularly pressure washing them for the last 5+ years.
They might be pressure washing some areas near Adams, but the vast majority of downtown is SEVERELY neglected. I'm currently working on a photo-journal of what I consider "low hanging fruit issues", which should be cheap and easy to maintain. I'm hoping to post it before the year is over so we can use it as a New Years resolution of sorts...
Quote from: Gunnar on November 10, 2014, 01:42:44 PM
The whole story of the Berkman still confuses me.
So if I remember correctly at least the parking garage was very poorly built and this collapsed. I tried making sense of the whole thing (including the various lawsuits) but failed to do so.
What I am still wondering about is - what is the quality of the rest of the building(s) like, considering what happened to the parking garage?
What puzzles me the most is how the general contractor ended up owning the building (I know there was a lawsuit but still).
Also: Was the company that currently owns the Berkman involved in the construction of the garage in any way ?
well, many on the board will not be surprised to learn that the Berkman 2 deal is not happening. Developer needed some city money for a reasonable ROI but the city has no money. Plus, developer wanted to take up a fraction of the Shipyards property for the garage, but the city said no. That leave only Shad Khan to ride to the rescue. Disappointing.
^^Just wow at the ineptness of our city leaders. Also I read one article about the Shipyards and the comments from the Khan side was they would not do anything until the Berkman 2 fiasco was addressed, which I don't blame them at all. So it looks like the city just shot itself in both feet with one bullet, they continue to impress.
Good grief... Berkman 2 is just another reason to get out while I can. Who knows, maybe Khan will help them with the financing... Then again he helped the Trio & Barnett developers and guess what... They're sitting stagnant too, 6 months from when they were supposed to be completed.
Also, has anyone else noticed how the city just gave up on the ADA sidewalk corners? There are 3-4 corners that they tore up, but just left bare... So now we've had several dangerous drop off dirt corners for about 2 months. My gf nearly killed herself last night, going over the handle bars, while we were riding bikes because she didn't see the drop off... :o
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 11, 2014, 08:14:21 AM
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 05:27:40 PM
^^^Likewise, Jacksonville, for being 1,000 ppsm and for being a "new" city is about as dirty as it gets. Just my opinion.
agreed, it is just an opinion. and somewhat misleading at that. You can't say Jax. has 1000 persons per square mile and NYC has 200,000. Sorry, that is simply not true.
And as for downtown sidewalks being dirty, are you going off your experience living here years ago? I ask because DVI has been regularly pressure washing them for the last 5+ years.
Well much of Manhattan is 200,000+ people per square mile. Including Central Park and all of the office districts, the whole thing averages to 70,000 ppsm, but commands a daytime population of office workers, tourists, and shoppers that easily brings it 175,000+ppsm, and a nighttime population including visitors/tourists staying in hotels of 90,000 ppsm. The weighted average density would be much higher, certainly including office workers and visitors would be north of 200,000 ppsm. Excluding, would still be north of 100,000 ppsm.
Conversely, Jax averages out to about 1,100 ppsm and peaks in areas around 5-6,000 ppsm in places like Riverside. I'm sure the weighted average of Jacksonville's density would be around 2,500-3,500 ppsm.
So the difference between Manhattan and Jax is still night and day no matter how you try to poke around - Manhattan is by far the densest place in North America, and yet it is quite clean. I think that is the point? Much of Jax is kind of ratty, like much of greater New York is, but DT Jax is a lot rattier looking than Manhattan. Those are the comparisons.
And as far as opinion goes, I visit. I will be there in a couple weeks for a wedding, as a matter of fact. I also post online and I live elsewhere where people ask me about where I'm from. I wouldn't poo poo my opinion or those of others because you have a beef with them. Half my problem with Jax and why I got the hell out of dodge at 18 was the people - everyone I know there thinks it's just hunky dory which is why status quo is so maintained. It's like people have never left the cocoon, or left without blinders on.
I've been going back and forth between playing devil's advocate and agreeing with the OP, because I've never lived DT and can't tell from these posts how bad it is (I've certainly stayed downtown for a weekend at a friend's here and there...desolate is what I would call it, but not necessarily dirty). Homeless, shit on sidewalks, and parking tickets are usually par for the course for living in an "urban" environment, however, I then go back to what I've seen visiting smaller cities that can be compared to Jax, and usually I've been WAYYYY more impressed elsewhere than when I've come home and looked around from a similar lens.
So I know there's work to do, and I'm glad to hear DVI power washes the sidewalks, but it may not be enough. There's just something missing from downtown...it gives off the deserted feel, which if combined with ill maintained sidewalks (from an actual concrete perspective), visible homeless, weeds, etc just doesn't sit well. It makes it appear dirtier than it actually is, which is probably why our peers understand that they need to give off the appearance of literally being scrubbed down, and why they appear cleaner and nicer (and are doing better jobs at attracting residents and tourists to their downtowns).
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 11, 2014, 10:22:26 AM
Also, has anyone else noticed how the city just gave up on the ADA sidewalk corners? There are 3-4 corners that they tore up, but just left bare... So now we've had several dangerous drop off dirt corners for about 2 months. My gf nearly killed herself last night, going over the handle bars, while we were riding bikes because she didn't see the drop off... :o
the City has been in the process of updating them continuously for several months. They did two by my house last week. I suggest calling Public Works and letting them know about the unfinished ones near you.
Quote from: simms3 on November 11, 2014, 10:52:38 AM
Well much of Manhattan is 200,000+ people per square mile. Including Central Park and all of the office districts, the whole thing averages to 70,000 ppsm, but commands a daytime population of office workers, tourists, and shoppers that easily brings it 175,000+ppsm, and a nighttime population including visitors/tourists staying in hotels of 90,000 ppsm. The weighted average density would be much higher, certainly including office workers and visitors would be north of 200,000 ppsm. Excluding, would still be north of 100,000 ppsm.
Conversely, Jax averages out to about 1,100 ppsm and peaks in areas around 5-6,000 ppsm in places like Riverside. I'm sure the weighted average of Jacksonville's density would be around 2,500-3,500 ppsm.
well if you're going to count office workers and other employees for NYC, it would be fair to do the same for Jacksonville....basically the downtown area is about 3 square miles...includes 4000 residents and visitors plus about 50,000 workers. So that would make density in downtown Jax. something like 17,000-18,000 ppsm.
The comparison still stands. Manhattan is almost the size of pre-consolidation Jacksonville. Downtown, like you said, is 3 square miles at best, and still doesn't reach the average residential-only density of the entire city limits of San Francisco (47 sq miles, including about 15 sq mi of parks and industrial wasteland), or the large central part of Chicago/Philadelphia (similar in size to SF), even with daytime population/visitors, etc.
23 sq mi Manhattan, despite its insane densities (nobody in their right mind would try to put downtown Jax's population density, even with daytime pop., in the same league) in 2014 presents very very well. Very clean (smells from trash, maybe, but otherwise as clean as 200,000 ppsm can be). Downtown Jax doesn't present so well. Maybe a bit unfair, but DT Jax is less impressive, to me (and clearly so many others), than many of its peers in the Sunbelt/Midwest/NE.
Peers being a laundry list, such as Providence, Charlotte, Austin, Nashville, Orlando, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Salt Lake City, Denver to a degree, Portland to a degree, Charleston to a degree, Tampa, Indianapolis, Kansas City, etc etc.
Making strides? Could be - though it seems to be running parallel to general population increases to Duval County as a whole (in the nearly 10 years since I've been gone, Duval County has increased in population by ~5%, and DT is maybe 5% better than when I left). In our peer networks, some of those cities have even slower growth than Duval County, however, their downtowns are often 20-50% better than they were just 10 years ago. I think that's the key difference. There's more of a focus on "downtown" elsewhere than has occurred in Jacksonville (not to mention NE FL's actual population growth, despite being in no-state-income sunny FL, has really really slowed over the last 10-15 years). It's definitely a national trend that isn't hitting DT Jax as hard as nearly everywhere else.
Jacksonville's resources are obviously spread thin (given the population density of the city as a whole, even in the most populated parts). However, the same can be said for a few other cities (OKC, Nashville, Houston, Charlotte, etc). I wonder if those cities have different policies in place to put more resources into their cores and leave their hinterlands up to more complete private investment? I don't know the answer, just pondering.
There's no point in making excuses, Tufsu, and trying to argue with [literally everyone] that DT Jax needs work. Is it as bad as JaxJaguar is making it out to be to live in? Perhaps. Perhaps not. My opinion is that being "somewhat pioneering" (not in the Springfield sense, but in that direction), I would give DT Jax a try and enjoy living there IF there weren't unnecessary hassles. The kinds of hassles I can put up with, and must put up with, in a NY or SF are not what I want in Jax, given the differences in those cities. I want cleanliness, bars, amenities, etc. I want a Denver/Charlotte atmosphere in a "new" city like Jax. Not a Tenderloin SF atmosphere (which is only tolerable in SF because it's SF).
Quote from: simms3 on November 11, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
There's no point in making excuses, Tufsu, and trying to argue with [literally everyone] that DT Jax needs work.
I agree that there is much to improve about downtown Jacksonville. That said, I have lived there for more than 8 years and still think the positives far outweigh the negatives. Sure there is more of an urban vibe in other cities, but the cost of living downtown is also substantially higher in many of those places.
Would you agree, that while substantially better than Jax. in may ways, there is room for cities like NYC and SF to improve as well?
Comparing Jacksonville to NYC is not fair and are just not comparable.
Compare Jacksonville to Tampa, St Pete, Orlando and Charlotte is fair.
In some cases compare JAX to Miami or Atlanta as Atlanta is spread out and dealing with a lot of conservative thinking or Miami that had a downtown that was a down and out ghost town at 5:30 pm as recently as ten years ago.
JAX can learn and emulate from the turn around of downtown Atlanta and Miami.
JAX can learn and emulate the successes of downtown St Petersburg and Orlando.
I agree that downtown JAX is often desolate and even when there is life on West Adams and Laura, it's a ghost town two blocks away on the average Tuesday night.
Downtown is not dirty. To be dirty would require people to be making it dirty.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 11, 2014, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: simms3 on November 11, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
There's no point in making excuses, Tufsu, and trying to argue with [literally everyone] that DT Jax needs work.
I agree that there is much to improve about downtown Jacksonville. That said, I have lived there for more than 8 years and still think the positives far outweigh the negatives. Sure there is more of an urban vibe in other cities, but the cost of living downtown is also substantially higher in many of those places.
Would you agree, that while substantially better than Jax. in may ways, there is room for cities like NYC and SF to improve as well?
Yes clearly. I think the original point was that DT Jax is relatively dirty and ill maintained, despite being "newer" and dealing with far fewer overwhelming "people pressures" as dealt with in much denser environments. In fact, when I mentioned:
Quote from: Gamblor on November 10, 2014, 05:00:32 PM
Quote from: simms3 on November 10, 2014, 04:55:13 PM
NYC, for being 200,000 people per square mile, is about as clean as it gets.
Bingo
It was followed up by a response. There are comparisons to be made to any city. Comparing to Manhattan is basically in the vain attempt to point out that one of the world's most dense/old urban environments still appears cleaner, often safer than one of the world's least dense/newest urban environments. Not to compare Manhattan itself to DT Jax.
And yes, everyone in SF basically acknowledges there are LOTS of things to improve in either SF or NYC/Manhattan. There are affordability issues that are in some respects as bad as the sort of opposite conditions that exist in Detroit. SF, as I've said numerous times, is a dirty dirty city filled with the country's most blatantly horrific homeless problem (which it's known for). It's a constant discussion.
But that still plays to my point. I can swallow living in a dirty, dense, seedy area of SF in shoebox for $$$ because it's in SF. The only thing possibly better in this country for true big city urban living would be Manhattan or maybe Chicago. In Jax, why should I put up with some of the crap I must in SF? There aren't NEARLY as many redeeming factors, so everything must be relatively perfect, and for less. I think that's the bottom line. That's what Jacksonville's true peers have realized.
It's one thing to attract the Springfield types, the real pioneers, etc. There are only so many. But to attract the white collar work force that will work those DT jobs and support more DT businesses (there are more such people in any given city), that requires providing a more cleaned up, perceptively safe, and
enjoyable atmosphere.
Quote from: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on November 11, 2014, 02:17:08 PM
I agree that downtown JAX is often desolate and even when there is life on West Adams and Laura, it's a ghost town two blocks away on the average Tuesday night.
Downtown is not dirty. To be dirty would require people to be making it dirty.
I agree. It's funny sometimes that people say things out of the blue, like a new meme; All of a sudden DT is 'dirty' yeah okay...Sounds like flinging crap on the ceiling to see if it sticks syndrome to me...
Quote from: edjax on November 11, 2014, 09:27:32 AM
^^Just wow at the ineptness of our city leaders. Also I read one article about the Shipyards and the comments from the Khan side was they would not do anything until the Berkman 2 fiasco was addressed, which I don't blame them at all. So it looks like the city just shot itself in both feet with one bullet, they continue to impress.
Oh, and while we're at it, City Council was supposed to approve funding to fix the Liberty Street hole in August. They have deferred the legislation several times since then. The city is suing the insurance company, but for a while it seemed like the Council would put on the big boy pants and fix it themselves. Not so much. BTW, April will be the 3rd anniversary of a hole in a core road, and the road shut off to traffic. Unbelievable.
Hard not to feel like all of the momentum created over the last year has ground to a halt. Feeling more and more like we are held hostage by Khan, City Council, and the Mayor's office. No movement on Trio, the Landing, Berkman, Liberty Street, or Shipyards. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
Quote from: I-10east on November 11, 2014, 02:39:18 PM
Quote from: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on November 11, 2014, 02:17:08 PM
I agree that downtown JAX is often desolate and even when there is life on West Adams and Laura, it's a ghost town two blocks away on the average Tuesday night.
Downtown is not dirty. To be dirty would require people to be making it dirty.
I agree. It's funny sometimes that people say things out of the blue, like a new meme; All of a sudden DT is 'dirty' yeah okay...Sounds like flinging crap on the ceiling to see if it sticks syndrome to me...
Pre-consolidation Jax as a whole appears very rundown, and in places quite dirty to me. I know I'm not alone in thinking or voicing that opinion.
Also, as people have pointed out, there is an utter lack of oversight and maintenance downtown, and a homeless problem. Combine the two with vacant overgrown lots, an abundance of random chain link fences, negligent landlords who have no incentive to put more capital into their buildings/lots, etc and you have a "dirty" looking downtown. Not that hard to fathom, but I guess your perspective, like so many in Jacksonville, is Jacksonville-only.
Go to Denver, highlighted by MJ today, and you'll see an opposite world. Very clean city. I would go so far as to call it pristine. Yet still interesting. Charlotte = clean, but perhaps a little uninteresting.
Not to mention N Jefferson Street and Broad Street. Will those ever be fixed? Those are probably some of the worst roads & sidewalks in the entire city and they're right next to the Courthouse. My car bottoms out on Jefferson almost every time I'm driving to Publix. And my friend blew a tire in on of the massive pot holes on Broad trying to get to my place.
Jefferson and Broad will both be completely rebuilt by JTA soon. This work will be done as a part of the BRT project.
Quote from: simms3 on November 12, 2014, 11:19:34 AM
Pre-consolidation Jax as a whole appears very rundown, and in places quite dirty to me. I know I'm not alone in thinking or voicing that opinion.
Also, as people have pointed out, there is an utter lack of oversight and maintenance downtown, and a homeless problem. Combine the two with vacant overgrown lots, an abundance of random chain link fences, negligent landlords who have no incentive to put more capital into their buildings/lots, etc and you have a "dirty" looking downtown. Not that hard to fathom, but I guess your perspective, like so many in Jacksonville, is Jacksonville-only.
Go to Denver, highlighted by MJ today, and you'll see an opposite world. Very clean city. I would go so far as to call it pristine. Yet still interesting. Charlotte = clean, but perhaps a little uninteresting.
For years, you are like the biggest critic of Jax on MJ. There's some things that I agree with your past assessments (DT needs to be more vibrant, too much surface parking etc). I can't recollect any past posts saying the DT is dirty, certainly nothing of repetition. I would call certain areas in DT Jax (around Jefferson etc) barren and some neglected (around La Villa) with grass lots etc, but that's not the case on every DT street. When I think of 'dirty' I think of 70's NY with trash strewn about everywhere, rotting trash, sooty buildings, broken glass, and I don't see that around downtown.