Just thinking out loud, apparently the new boats for the water taxi are the same as the old boats. One wonders what they could look like and how much more attractive they could be if we actually invested a little thought into them...
Check out that Jacksonville Parade float, makes me wonder 'what-if.'
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/ScreenShot2014-06-07at31725PM_zpsb302cc2b.png)
Another thought would be a comfortable tour boat with a classic flair.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/ScreenShot2014-06-07at32217PM_zps05165364.png)
Lastly as evidenced by these boats in Savannah, we are SO outclassed with our 'lawn chair on a 4x8' mentality. Why is it I get the feeling that if American Cities were big box stores, we're all living in WAL-MART.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/ScreenShot2014-06-07at33417PM_zps853f15c4.png)
Practicability > Window dressing
Entrepreneurs are WAY more likely to come up with workable and profitable solutions than COJ and some competition would be great too. Why do we have to have just one provider?
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on June 07, 2014, 08:08:03 PM
Entrepreneurs are WAY more likely to come up with workable and profitable solutions than COJ and some competition would be great too. Why do we have to have just one provider?
It's apparently just some kind of regulation for some reason known only to them. The sizes and number of fleet for the selected vendor had to be under certain restrictions but for the life of me I cannot see why these particulars were chosen. The existing vendor wanted to continue but somehow didn't fit the new parameters as specified by whoever. Go figure.
It's Jacksonville people, obviously somebody had an itchy butt, and I bet now that somebody else has a smelly finger!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 07, 2014, 10:25:38 PM
It's Jacksonville people, obviously somebody had an itchy butt, and I bet now that somebody else has a smelly finger!
It's RICO baby!
To me, the Jax water taxis are totally fine. I'm cool with practical water taxis that don't look like they came from a large theme park somewhere. The bigger 'permanent' hardtop water taxis are in larger cities has far more tourism (NYC, Chicago etc). High end boats goes along with high end tourism. You can't expect the Queen Mary to go hand and hand with spotty 'event' driven tourism that is DT.
Even (NYC and others) they are far from the freaking showboatin' Southern Belle (usually god-awful loud colors like yellow) woohoo!!!! NYC's look like a cab; yay, classy nautical prestige!!! No freaking big deal. The beautiful Inner Harbor of Baltimore (as many say) has the same damn boats Jville has, I guess that something is 'wrong' with theirs also...
www.waterfrontpartnership.org/water-taxi
QuoteThe beautiful Inner Harbor of Baltimore (as many say) has the same damn boats Jville has, I guess that something is 'wrong' with theirs also...
That is the same company that Jax just kicked out. Within the Inner Harbor there are also multiple pleasure cruise boats operating as well.
The pontoon boats are superior for water taxis with short trips. They don't rock and roll in wakes. Twin, wide apart engines make them more maneuverable. Wide open sides means everybody gets a wonderful view and wide entry ways make loading and unloading faster.
They are also inexpensive to purchase given their passenger capacity.
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 08, 2014, 11:24:16 AM
The pontoon boats are superior for water taxis with short trips. They don't rock and roll in wakes. Twin, wide apart engines make them more maneuverable. Wide open sides means everybody gets a wonderful view and wide entry ways make loading and unloading faster.
They are also inexpensive to purchase given their passenger capacity.
EXACTLY! WAL-MART CHEAP.
This 'spotty event driven tourism' that I-10 E typically defends, will forever stay 'spotty event driven tourism,' if we don't do something to make ourselves stand out from the crowd. Mention an area where one believes we could do better then NYC, Baltimore, Savannah etc... and immediately the cry goes up that our 'lawn chairs on a raft' as just as good as the QM2. Ever wonder why we are so stuck on mediocrity? Our citizens defend it, praise it, and can't wrap their minds around doing something even better.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 08, 2014, 04:04:17 PM
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 08, 2014, 11:24:16 AM
The pontoon boats are superior for water taxis with short trips. They don't rock and roll in wakes. Twin, wide apart engines make them more maneuverable. Wide open sides means everybody gets a wonderful view and wide entry ways make loading and unloading faster.
They are also inexpensive to purchase given their passenger capacity.
EXACTLY! WAL-MART CHEAP.
This 'spotty event driven tourism' that I-10 E typically defends, will forever stay 'spotty event driven tourism,' if we don't do something to make ourselves stand out from the crowd. Mention an area where one believes we could do better then NYC, Baltimore, Savannah etc... and immediately the cry goes up that our 'lawn chairs on a raft' as just as good as the QM2. Ever wonder why we are so stuck on mediocrity? Our citizens defend it, praise it, and can't wrap their minds around doing something even better.
This city needs to work on its Mojo!
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 08, 2014, 11:24:16 AM
The pontoon boats are superior for water taxis with short trips. They don't rock and roll in wakes. Twin, wide apart engines make them more maneuverable. Wide open sides means everybody gets a wonderful view and wide entry ways make loading and unloading faster.
They are also inexpensive to purchase given their passenger capacity.
I bet that they cost significantly more, but no one wants to bring that up of course... Every tiny issue has become a whinefest nowadays (even when Jax don't do wrong). Very trivial esp in direct comparison to the real problems that Jax has (occupying DT etc). Ock and many of you others may hate Walmart, but their is no denying that Walmart is efficient, rather than going over their heads.
(http://i.imgur.com/J3QZ96q.jpg)
Would water taxi service to a point in Riverside (i.e. Memorial Park) for daily travel and the RAM on Saturdays be a feasible option? The time to get from one point to another would be lengthy but for someone visiting Jacksonville, it would give a chance to visit mulitple points without having to resort to driving to each destination, as well as actually enjoy time on the river. In addition, for those who live in Riverside/ Avondale, a way to get to the stadium on game days without having to resort to traditional Jacksonville travel (cars).
If you care about the water taxi (one way or the other) go to the City Council meeting tonight and speak up
Quote from: I-10east on June 08, 2014, 04:51:59 PM
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 08, 2014, 11:24:16 AM
The pontoon boats are superior for water taxis with short trips. They don't rock and roll in wakes. Twin, wide apart engines make them more maneuverable. Wide open sides means everybody gets a wonderful view and wide entry ways make loading and unloading faster.
They are also inexpensive to purchase given their passenger capacity.
I bet that they cost significantly more, but no one wants to bring that up of course... Every tiny issue has become a whinefest nowadays (even when Jax don't do wrong). Very trivial esp in direct comparison to the real problems that Jax has (occupying DT etc). Ock and many of you others may hate Walmart, but their is no denying that Walmart is efficient, rather than going over their heads.
So had you designed Disney World, you would have done nothing at all to Green Swamp, I mean, because after all, it was just perfect the way it was? I note that you often comment on sports, but I don't understand why, because the teams are fine just the way they are. You may be the only person I have every encountered who would open a gourmet restaurant and then serve boxed kraft Mac and Cheese... because it's fine just the way it is. Did you attend school? WHY? Weren't you just fine the way you were? Why improve anything? 1 + 1 + 1 might be 111, but far be it from any of us to try and correct your error.
I don't think you have EVER understood a single one of our articles or threads on improvement for the same reasons, everything is just fine the way it is! NONE OF THESE ARTICLES OR POSTS and none of these issues has become a 'whinefest.' These are discussions are embryonic seed planters, some will happen and some won't.
Take the issue of the 'lawn chairs on a 4 x 8' that we use as water taxi's. Sure they work and yes they are cheap, but then so is Southwest Airlines, given a choice between flying Southwest or driving, I'd probably drive... I don't like flying cattle cars. Given a choice between flying LAN Chile or driving, and I'll fly every time. Why? Because LAN Chile's fleet and service is amazing. Nobody but you suggested that this be a 'theme park' look, what I'm suggesting is that we reconstruct some of our history and create ferry's that reflect our very cool nautical past. Isaiah Hart operated a 'ferry' near a cow ford, the first business grew up as a little 'Market' under a big 'Bay' tree at the corner of Bay and Market Streets downtown. The South Jacksonville Ferry Company built piers with entertainment complexes (think The Landing) on both sides of the river and then along with investor crossover from the streetcar company, developed Dixieland Park. I wondered if anyone else also thought such a salute to our past would be attractive, maybe more attractive then our '4x8 fleet.'
"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" (George Bernard Shaw) I really feel sorry about such a lack of imagination, that perception that everything said is an attack or an insult, that must be a hell of a way to live. Do us all a favor the next time you think we need a better running back, consider that some of us think we need better ________________ (fill in the blank).
I'm still trying to understand why they got rid of the last vendor and their boats. Do they run the taxi and limo service at the airport? License, regulate but why sole source or even government run?
You know that if the city runs it profit will elude the project because Government is non-profit, literally.
Nice rambling tirade Ock, now time to be logical....
1. You refuse to bring up the financial aspect of these new boats. The two current water taxis costed the city 333,000; How much would 'preferred' two pontoon boats cost? Can the city afford improved vessels? *dodge questions of course*
2. The only people that give a DAMN about new and improved boats are nautical freaks like yourself. The general public (even most out of towners) could care less about some damn speedier pontoon boat.
When I was young, I wanted a Nintendo (NES) My Mom couldn't afford it. Simple as that.
Quote from: I-10east on June 10, 2014, 02:27:32 PM
Nice rambling tirade Ock, now time to be logical....
1. You refuse to bring up the financial aspect of these new boats. The two current water taxis costed the city 333,000; How much would 'preferred' two pontoon boats cost? Can the city afford improved vessels? *dodge questions of course*
Has ANYONE asked that question? Have they run the numbers on what improved boats could or couldn't do for downtown? Would evening cruises in an air-conditioned boat be more popular? How much more popular? Seems to me I haven't dodged the question, you've dodged the answers, because it's so much easier to be completely ameliorate yourself by doing nothing. Don't dream, don't improve, don't engineer, don't rock the boat.
Quote2. The only people that give a DAMN about new and improved boats are nautical freaks like yourself. The general public (even most out of towners) could care less about some damn speedier pontoon boat.
Where is you data that says no one cares about nautical things? Based on this then I guess we now have you on record as being against the Charles Adams and the Jacksonville Maritime Museum, and why not? "The general public (even most out of towners) could care less about some damn speedier pontoon boat."
QuoteWhen I was young, I wanted a Nintendo (NES) My Mom couldn't afford it. Simple as that.
Why would you have wanted one, weren't you just completely satisfied with the status quo?
One more thing. I don't know about ya'll, but when I'm on a scenic vessel, I like being at a nice leisurely pace. Who cares about maneuverability on a short route? What are we doing here, navigating the Strait of Magellan? I'm done with this topic, LOL
QuoteYou know that if the city runs it profit will elude the project because Government is non-profit, literally.
COJ won't be running it for a profit. They will be leasing it for essentially nothing (I think $1) to a hand-picked operator, and that vendor keeps all fares collected while covering their own fuel and labor costs... all while not having to come out of pocket to purchase the boats.
Frankly, I don't think it is an emergency for taxpayers to pay for boats (that they won't be able to offload later) all because COJ botched the RFP process for almost 6 months (btw, the only vendor qualified during the last RFP was the same vendor that just left). Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do the water taxis provide a complementary transportation service downtown? Yes. Will downtown cease to function without water taxis? No. Should taxpayers be in the water taxi business? No.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 10, 2014, 02:51:33 PM
QuoteYou know that if the city runs it profit will elude the project because Government is non-profit, literally.
COJ won't be running it for a profit. They will be leasing it for essentially nothing (I think $1) to a hand-picked operator, and that vendor keeps all fares collected while covering their own fuel and labor costs... all while not having to come out of pocket to purchase the boats.
Frankly, I don't think it is an emergency for taxpayers to pay for boats (that they won't be able to offload later) all because COJ botched the RFP process for almost 6 months (btw, the only vendor qualified during the last RFP was the same vendor that just left). Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do the water taxis provide a complementary transportation service downtown? Yes. Will downtown cease to function without water taxis? No. Should taxpayers be in the water taxi business? No.
I couldn't have said it better.
Jim bailey has some good history of the water taxi (about a third of the way into it) in this opinion piece although I don't agree with his conclusions:
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543136 (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543136)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 10, 2014, 02:07:22 PM
So had you designed Disney World
I had to bring this up. Funny that you said Disney World. I love visiting theme parks and to me, Disney World is one of the most overrated. Many of it's attractions are severely archaic IMO (like Space Mtn). I've been on most of the rides in WDW, and one hand I can count the attractions that I was wowed with Expedition Everest (when the cave Yeti was working) and Tower of Terror with a few others being just okay. Even it's newest attraction the 'Seven Dwarfs Mine Train' POV looks eh.
IMO Universal has blown WDW out of the water (proof with the attendance) with the Harry Potter section. I was far more impressed with the theming in parks like Dollywood, Busch Gardens Williamsburg, and others. You say that I love 'resting on laurels' that's the epitome of WDW. I'm NOT anti-family ride either, there are plenty of parks that does family rides better than WDW. But many commercially brainwashed people love the mouse, and think Disney can't do no wrong, so that's all that matters.
^^I've lived here all my life, been to Disney just a handful of times. I like natural parks and attractions, or exploring cities, etc. instead of rides and theme parks.
Frankly, the only thing appearance wise of a water taxi that matters is that it is clean and neat and not worn out looking. Past that, I do not think anyone using it as a Taxi cares much. Using it as an excursion boat is different and I do not think we are or need to be talking about that here now.
How the Mayor's office handled this entire matter is a bit disturbing and obviously it was not handled in a proper and open manor. That said, I have to give some credit to the Mayor's office for recognizing that it is indeed important to Jacksonville and at least taking steps to insure it stays as a offered service.
I now only hope that after City Council and the Mayor's office gets done with pointing fingers and yelling at each other that then they then can sit down and fix it so we tax payers can have a water taxi service that is reasonable and do it quickly without anymore of the drama than absolutely necessary.
Great job by Council tonight rejecting this boondoggle of a 'plan' for City-run water taxis.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 10, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Great job by Council tonight rejecting this boondoggle of a 'plan' for City-run water taxis.
+1.
Just for the record I-10E, I agree with IrvAdams on this one, perhaps with a more radical twist, I personally HATE Universal, WB, Seaworld and that damn rat they came in on!
I'd rather visit a real attraction like Juniper Springs, Bulow Plantation, Kingsley, Ft. George Island, Centre Street or dining at Denoel's French Pastry Shop.
I'd love to see someone make a bid to operate the so-called taxi, more like the mini-excursion boat that it is. I think a theme wrapped around our history and the old South Jacksonville Ferry Company, Jacksonville St. Augustine and Halifax River Railroad Ferry Company, or the Arlington Ferry Company would be amazing. If y'all have ever been to Staten Island, chances are you've ridden a large pedestrian ferry, imagine scaling that way down, but retaining 'The Landing' theme, at both banks, snack bars, historic displays, etc... The main landings could look something like the Glass Bottom Boat landing at Silver Springs. I just think there is SO MUCH MORE that could be done with this and I'd bet it would be even more popular if it spoke to our heritage and offered something more then a trip across the drink. As others have said, we've got from Memorial Park in Riverside to Metropolitan Park with at least one downtown stop on each bank to work with. During special events that could be expanded from the Ortega River to the Zoo Dock on the Trout.
What we have here is a failure to imaginate!
Sorry, but I just think that a taxi should be a taxi, nothing more. The extras - fancy stops, fancier boats, longer, slower routes - just seem to make it more expensive rather than a affordable and cool way to get around the downtown riverfront. Compare it to the JTA - if their buses were fancier, more costly, took longer to get from place to place because the drivers spouted history of the area, how long before people began to complain? (yes, I know, perhaps not the best analogy because the buses are not very good as it is....)
Excursion boats or buses should be separate from transportation services. Don't we want a downtown riverfront that needs and supports both? So perhaps the question is which one is the best to have first? Which one will help keep people downtown for entertainment - taxis to destinations or excursions that are destinations?
QuoteDon't we want a downtown riverfront that needs and supports both?
My answer would be yes. But, my answer is also prefaced by the fact that taxpayers shouldn't fund either. COJ's role should be to provide an environment that is welcoming to private operators. This RFP fiasco proves that environment does not presently exist.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 11, 2014, 08:25:02 AM
QuoteDon't we want a downtown riverfront that needs and supports both?
My answer would be yes. But, my answer is also prefaced by the fact that taxpayers shouldn't fund either. COJ's role should be to provide an environment that is welcoming to private operators. This RFP fiasco proves that environment does not presently exist.
OK, so that is now a given. The mayor's office screwed up. By your statement, there is nothing new here, is there? The important thing now is to not point fingers but fix it. How do you propose to do that? What plan does City Council have in place to fix this? If they do not have a plan already or do not have one very soon, are they any better than the Mayor's office?
Let's start by asking the right questions.
Do we want a water taxi at all?
Is a water taxi service an important component to the revitalization of downtown?
Should it be just transportation or excursion based?
Can we find a private service provider that can and will do a good job and be a reasonable deal for us tax payers.
Can we include the boats just purchased so that the tax payers can get a benefit out that particularly questionable decision?
As JTA is publicly funded transportation service, why can't the water taxi be at least partially publicly funded?
Just a few thoughts of a possible many.
Not convinced JTA should be in the water taxi business. There are buses, a skyway and bridges that accomodate cars, pedestrians and bicyclists that can get you over the river. There are presently two companies downtown that offer year-round river cruises and another that docks at the Hyatt offering long term cruises at certain times of the year, why should taxpayers be in that business as well?
Instead of rushing to buy boats (which is a costly knee-jerk reaction to a problem COJ created themselves), COJ should be taking a step back and reconfiguring the RFP. The only entity that scored high enough on the last RFP was Harbor Care... and the City refused to offer them a contract.
Shoot... $350k could've been used to add additional lighting to downtown sidewalks for safety... or to buy some paint to add some bike lanes... or to swap out the old crappy parking meters with ones that accept credit cards.
Quote from: strider on June 11, 2014, 08:09:20 AM
Sorry, but I just think that a taxi should be a taxi, nothing more.
Where were you when I was trying to hold off the hoards of maritime marauders? :)
I want to know who got a frickin' hair up their butt and decided to do a number on the water taxi? Why did the city feel the need to bump up the requirements for water taxi service? Why chase away to only vendor that was able to provide water taxi service? And when the city didn't get any qualified applicants for providing water taxi service, why didn't they call up the past vendor and work out a deal? Did the Brown administration think that they could save face by not going back to vendor? They look worse now then if they would have realized they had made a mistake and worked out a deal with the past vendor?
Quote from: jaxjaguar on June 11, 2014, 12:12:00 PM
Shoot... $350k could've been used to add additional lighting to downtown sidewalks for safety... or to buy some paint to add some bike lanes... or to swap out the old crappy parking meters with ones that accept credit cards.
Or to substitute for some of that quarter-at-a-time nit picking parking meter money and start making the streets meter-free as they should be. There are other effective methods for making people move on so they don't camp out indefinitely on the street, but metering is just a restrictive policy to anyone wanting to visit or do business downtown.
Take 'em out!
^^^+100
Stay tuned for the next episode of Water Taxis of Our Lives!
(http://images.buddytv.com/articles/Image/joseph-mascolo.jpg)
QuoteWater taxi boat maker: Second boat is on its way, no refunds
Jacksonville's own Water(taxi)gate debacle continues — with the boat seller not only refusing to refund the City of Jacksonville money for the water taxis purchased earlier this month but saying it will send up the second vessel this week.
Bed tax money going for huge video screens and wading pools could have run the water taxis in any form for many, many years.
Mr. Kahn, Please move the Jags to Los Angeles before you cost us any more money!
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 18, 2014, 03:15:42 PM
Bed tax money going for huge video screens and wading pools could have run the water taxis in any form for many, many years.
Mr. Kahn, Please move the Jags to Los Angeles before you cost us any more money!
Seriously, DW?!?
A competent person in charge inside the walls of city hall that could draw up a simple RFP prior to the original contract expiring would have been a better start.
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 18, 2014, 03:15:42 PM
Bed tax money going for huge video screens and wading pools could have run the water taxis in any form for many, many years.
Mr. Kahn, Please move the Jags to Los Angeles before you cost us any more money!
How about you just move to Ocala and we will call it even.
I was here WAY before the NFL and don't intend to go anywhere.
What other businesses do cities subsidize like we do professional sports teams? The incentives given to companies who are actually creating a lot of jobs and economic growth are a pittance compared to the billions that are given to the owners of NFL, NBA, and NLB teams.
Ridiculous!
Most companies that expand or relocate?
Look, bottom line is this: if we want to be a major league city, then this is how it works. Don't hate the player hate the game.
Plus, this is apples and oranges. The fact that the Mayor's office can't complete an RFP has nothing to do with the fact that we have to keep up with the Jones' if we want to be a first class city.
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 18, 2014, 05:08:15 PM
What other businesses do cities does Jacksonville subsidize like we do professional sports teams?
Again.... You're kidding, right?
I changed your quote a bit to keep this in local context.
But my list starts with:
Parking Garages.
Strip Malls.
Residential Developers in Outlying regions.
Civil Contractors
Consulting Agencies.
A certain Demolition Company.
Any corporation that hints of moving downtown.
There's plenty more, so if anyone feels like adding to it, go ahead.
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 18, 2014, 05:08:15 PM
What other businesses do cities subsidize like we do professional sports teams? The incentives given to companies who are actually creating a lot of jobs and economic growth are a pittance compared to the billions that are given to the owners of NFL, NBA, and NLB teams.
Ridiculous!
right or wrong, every other major league sports town does the same thing
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on June 18, 2014, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 18, 2014, 05:08:15 PM
What other businesses do cities does Jacksonville subsidize like we do professional sports teams?
Again.... You're kidding, right?
I changed your quote a bit to keep this in local context.
But my list starts with:
Parking Garages.
Strip Malls.
Residential Developers in Outlying regions.
Civil Contractors
Consulting Agencies.
A certain Demolition Company.
Any corporation that hints of moving downtown.
There's plenty more, so if anyone feels like adding to it, go ahead.
DT housing
DT office space
Northside everything
The landing
etc
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2014, 09:35:37 PM
to be accurate, downtown is subsidized by the Feds, not jax.
Always wrong but never in doubt
please share Adolf
Quote from: JayBird on June 10, 2014, 09:01:54 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/J3QZ96q.jpg)
Man I hope that is a joke. But it is funny.
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2014, 09:55:04 PM
Quote from: bill on June 18, 2014, 09:50:14 PM
please share Adolf
let me share with you a suggested activity that is still very biologically difficult to pull off. Let us know how the Lighting goes.
So your usual integrity, honesty and intellectual curiosity is still intact. Makes me comfortable that der furher is consistency.
So anyone have a report on how the water taxis are working out? I hear that the wait times are horrible. My friends and I opted for stadium parking this season for the Jag's games.