Do You Care About The Future Of Transit In Jax?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3173864585_nC7QmfD-M.jpg)
Due to the lack of public engagement in our community over the last few months, the future of transit investment may be dramatically altered for the worse. Metro Jacksonville has become a popular place for ideas and quality conversation on improving mass transit throughout North Florida. However, we're failing to advance these ideas into reality because of a lack of involvement where it really counts. Tomorrow is the deadline for your comments and suggestions involving the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization's 2040 Long Range Transportation Plan. If you care about what type of transportation investments are destined for your neighborhood's future, this is your opportunity to have your ideas, thoughts, concerns and suggestions included in the planning process.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-jun-do-you-care-about-the-future-of-transit-in-jax
This is an interesting article.
I think I'm more informed than the average Jaxson about transportation in the city, however I feel totally blindsided by some of these decisions.
It seems as though some of these projects (that anyone with even a below-average understanding of cost-benefit analysis could tell are losers) replaced other much more viable projects, intentionally to steer future money away from city-building and neighborhood enhancing projects in favor of more road-buidling on the peripheral edges of the county/region.
I'd encourage everyone reading to write in and give their thoughts.
My suggestions:
-Scrap the Five Points Skyway extension (that would fail virtually all viable testing methods, the streetcar utilizing a similar route would not)
-Bring back the Riverside Streetcar (a project in the Mobility Plan that was reflective of community input)
-For that matter, bring back the entire streetcar network included in the 2030 Mobility Plan and 2035 LRTP Cost Feasible Plan.
-Bring back the S-line rail line (a project in the Mobility Plan that was reflective of community input, and a project that has proven nationwide to spur major redevelopment opportunities that more than make up for the cost of building the system)
-Bring back the Springfield streetcar project (a project in the Mobility Plan that was reflective of community input), and scrap the Skyway expansion into Springfield (presumably inserted as the streetcar would pass viability tests, and the Skyway would not... thereby shifting money to more beltway projects)
-Scrap the San Marco streetcar expansion, in favor of a Skyway expansion (at grade) to the FEC crossing thereby connecting San Marco Square with downtown (and potentially Riverside).
-Scrap the Fairfax/Avondale streetcar plan (something that neighboring residents would stop at all costs... thereby shifting money to more beltway projects).
Thanks. What is Metro Jacksonville's take on the changes?
I went to the "meeting/presentation" in Springfield two weeks ago. There was absolutely no one from the community there for at least the 30 minutes I was there. Literally it was just me for most of the time (the input meeting had the unfortunate timing as being at the same time as a community meeting on Ability Housing). I don't know much about the projects, but NFTPO had a nice layout and voting system setup.
I was absolutely shocked about the lack of pedestrian and bike transportation projects. These were lumped together with some streetcar level plans too. I had to ask for clarification that this was the plan for 2040. It didn't even look like a great ped/bike plan for 2015. It showed absolutely zero thought for a future in that direction.
I voted with 7 chips for more ped/bike plans, and the other 3 for mass transit/rail/streetcar.
I wish I could contribute more constructive ideas other than just saying "more ped/bike/streetcar projects"
From their website it looks like there are extensive bike/ped projects, but it's hard to tell what they are since the maps are so hard to see. I don't know how they compare to the Mobility Plan.
From what I can see and know a little bit about, here are my thoughts:
*I'm with Mike (and presumably others) that a 5 Points Skyway stop is unfeasible. Streetcar, please
*Especially given that, the Riverside streetcar format should be brought more in line with the Mobility Plan.
*I support the Skyway extentions to Atlantic Boulevard and the Stadium District. Forest Street could probably be incorporated to the Streetcar plan.
*Similarly, the Springfield Skyway extension would be great, but could probably be just as well as a cheaper streetcar project (which was, of course, in the Mobility Plan).
*Are they really saying there will be streetcar in San Marco in addition to the Skyway extension? Why?
*I would prefer to see the S-line rail project kept, given that it was created through community input, whereas the justification for the change is unclear.
Justification for change is probably the anticipated cost of rebuilding track in the S-Line, which includes going through the middle of JTA's bus operations yard. Instead of using the S-Line, you could utilize an existing line that runs north of Gateway Mall to head north. The downfall is that you miss out on the urban core population centers and destinations such as UF Health. One option not shown could be something that Ock has mentioned quite a few times. Perhaps, the S-Line should be a part of a LRT line and completely separate from commuter rail?
I'd have to look at a specific idea or concept and then email that thought or suggestion. We should probably have Ock share his old ideas or look them up for further detail.
The lack of bicycle infrastructure is ridiculous. how can they talk about bike share on one hand yet we still have the third most dangerous streets in the country for bike and pedestrians?
Where do you believe bike/ped is needed? How do you believe it should be addressed?
I read the article and sent a directed reply with my suggestions. I am no professional but, reading this feedback, it looks like I was pretty close. It's so hard to say what will be the best, but I suggested stuff I thought would be effective.
Having read these responses, I think I'm going to add some more suggestions. It's one way to feel involved.
Stephen, I don't know how I missed the "presentation" two weeks ago in Springfield. Either I didn't hear about it, or didn't know what it was. Since apparently no one else in Springfield was there either, I have to believe we didn't hear about it. How are these things communicated?
Meanwhile, reading the article and preparing input. :-)
Quote from: Tacachale on June 02, 2014, 09:49:04 AM
Thanks. What is Metro Jacksonville's take on the changes?
At this point, there is no official Metro Jacksonville take. Nevertheless, I can share my opinion at this point. Personally, I'm highly concerned that several of the "replacement" transit ideas won't pass the technical sniff test and that they end up not making the Cost Feasible Plan. For example, how do you get the Skyway under I-95 and to Five Points? If the streetcar already in the COJ Mobility Plan and 2035 LRTP's Cost Feasible Plan is at least three times cheaper to implement and integrates into the context much better, why change to something riskier? Especially without public input?
Same goes for extending the Skyway to UF Health. Great idea in 1975 when the original Skyway planning process was underway. Since BRT is a go down Jefferson/Broad with a stop at UF Health, extending the Skyway parallel a block or two away doesn't really achieve much. We'd just have too systems that will compete for limited ridership at the cost of millions more to the taxpayer. Such a path would also not deliver the needed economic benefits to Main and 8th Streets....the two Springfield streets where mixed-use infill is most desired and feasible.
Nevertheless, I'm fine with what's shown being in the Needs Plan. However, I've requested that the Mobility Plan and 2035 LRTP's Cost Feasible Plan transit, bike and ped projects be added to the 2040 Needs Plan as well. This way, they all have the opportunity to be studied in greater detail for inclusion into the official 2040 Cost Feasible Plan.
IMO, the worst scenario would be taking out things that made the previous plan (and that the land use component of our comp plan was modified for to allow for TOD along those specific corridors), substituting them with risky expensive alternatives that end up being too unreasonable to make the final plan's list.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on June 02, 2014, 01:39:26 PM
Stephen, I don't know how I missed the "presentation" two weeks ago in Springfield. Either I didn't hear about it, or didn't know what it was. Since apparently no one else in Springfield was there either, I have to believe we didn't hear about it. How are these things communicated?
Meanwhile, reading the article and preparing input. :-)
They've been advertised in various media outlets around town. In fact, we've run some banner ads and articles promoting the meetings and planning process. However, from the response at April's meeting, we may be better off with shock and awe headlines to encourage more participation.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.3504.feature.jpg)
Public Meetings on 2040 Long Range Transportation Plan
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-apr-public-meetings-on-2040-long-range-transportation-plan-#.U4y3Y_mwJkA
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=21289.0
Long Range Transportation Plan Meeting in Springfield this Thursday
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=21520.0
Path Forward 2040: Investing In Our Future
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-oct-path-forward-2040-investing-in-our-future#.U4y4DfmwJkA
Choose Your Path: The Best Transportation Investments?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-dec-choose-your-path-the-best-transportation-investments#.U4y4PvmwJkA
Quote from: stephendare on June 02, 2014, 01:45:04 PM
Quote. However, I've requested that the Mobility Plan and 2035 LRTP's Cost Feasible Plan transit, bike and ped projects be added to the 2040 Needs Plan as well. This way, they all have the opportunity to be studied in greater detail for inclusion into the official 2040 Cost Feasible Plan.
Would this be one takeaway that everyone could help include in their comments and emails?
That would be one takeaway. Yet, I prefer that people don't just take my word for it because I don't have all the answers. If there are ideas for improving transit in Jax out there, suggest them. If you like what you see in the 2035 Cost Feasible Plan or 2040 Needs Plan, tell the TPO so. If you think something worth considering has been left out, please point these things or ideas out because whatever doesn't end up in the Needs Plan by tomorrow will not be considered for inclusion into the official plan. If it's not in that official plan, you can forget about public dollars going to it anytime soon.
STREETCAR IS NEEDED, heritage streetcar is cheaper and attracts visitors: FROM LAURA & INDEPENDENCE:
To Newnan, to Beaver (run off the east end and through the woods over Hogans Creek) to Randolph, to Duval, to Lee, to Water, return to start.
FROM BAY AND LEE, west on Bay to Myrtle (center lane is old streetcar subway) to Forrest, to Riverside, to Post, to Oak, to King, to FSCJ, to Roosevelt, to San Juan to Fairfax.
FROM NEWNAN AND BEAVER: north on Newnan to Orange, to Main, to 8th, to Jefferson, north returning to Boulevard north to 'S LINE'
FROM BEAVER STREET ALIGNMENT UNDER ARLINGTON EXPRESSWAY AT UNION ST WAREHOUSE, north on former F & J railroad r of w to 21st to Gateway Plaza. RAPID STREETCAR!
Skyway to Forrest
Skyway to Farmers Market (direct line)*
Skyway to FSCJ to Health Dept to VA to UF Health*
Skyway on Bay to Randolph
Skyway south to Atlantic (west of railroad) in San Marco*
*indicates a at-grade end-point transfer terminal opportunity
SKYBRIDGE - a elevated pedestrian walk from current second deck of current San Marco station to Baptist and Aetna... 12,000 missed riders!
CONDENSE JRTC INTO SINGLE HISTORIC BUILDING sell 8 blocks to TOD Developers. (Flagler? AAF? Etc)
BRT (SILVER LEVEL) JRTC downtown-Arlington Expressway-Regency (switch to bronze level Regency) hence via Atlantic to Beach.
BRT (bronze level) Park St to King, to Post, to Cassat, to Blanding, to OP
NORTHWEST BRT AS PLANNED USING PEARL AND REACHING JIA
EXPRESS MOTOR COACHES W/WIFI restrooms etc running Downtown - Baymeadows (office parks) - Town Center - UNF - BEACHES in lieu of BRT SOUTHEAST
Similar service OP - Baymeadows etc
Commuter rail on A line to GREEN COVE using re manufactured RDC CARS for economy.
Also to St Augustine South
Lake
There needs to be three distinct core bike paths or lanes that connect downtown with San Marco, Riverside and Springfield. I believe in this town these paths\lanes need physical separation to truly be of benefit or people wont use them. Sharrow's wont work. Drivers ignore them.
- Riverside Ave or really any street the runs the length up until Roosevelt, it could be College and cut through the park and/or through the underpass park.
-For San Marco San Jose to Hendrix is the easiest and most direct route
-Springfield not sure as I don't frequent as much but if you give people a safe
These could be tied into the Trolly service route planning it could kill two birds maybe?
^ The TPO did a regional bicycle master plan update last year. This year, they are expected to start a more in-depth look at needs in the urban core and beaches areas. I suspect that connectivity between the neighborhoods mentioned above will be a major focus of that effort.
That said, there are plans moving forward for better bicycle connectivity between downtown and San Marco, Riverside, and Springfield. projects such as the reconstruction of Riverplace Blvd. or the idea of a cycle track on Liberty Street do just that.
Quote from: jaxlore on June 02, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
The lack of bicycle infrastructure is ridiculous. how can they talk about bike share on one hand yet we still have the third most dangerous streets in the country for bike and pedestrians?
Agreed.
Also, usually when cities discuss putting in less optimal transit options, it's because the most optimal became infeasible, either financially or politically. Jax hasn't even attempted to put in something optimal, and yet is already "discussing" very less-than-optimal options for transit. That's a little weird. A skyway to 5 Points? Honestly, what are these people smoking?
I don't believe the S-Line should be commuter rail. I get it, there are standard gauge tracks available to use via commuter rail trains/frequency, which in a way is what the area possibly can support, however, a curcvy short line through a neighborhood that is urban by relative standards and is adjacent to downtown, with stops every half mile to mile, is not really what commuter rail is.
The city should grow some balls and put in LRT from downtown going north and create a master plan for growth/TOD, put together some financial option for developers to be incentivized, and let things run their course.
Instead, what happens is a bunch of non-transit people are way overthinking all of these "master plans", getting them way wrong, and not actually implementing them anyway. The city is not in emergency growth mode, and can actually curb emergency runaway growth by better land use plans in the suburbs (i.e. the Mobility Plan). That would afford them time to devote all resources to getting something practical up and running, and THEN working on master plans for citywide growth/transit once there is some sort of direction and a viable option up and running to paint how implementation might work in Jax and what it would result in.
Feeling red-faced, Lake. I used to be better about checking the "unread" posts, as well as the Springfield forum, but I've been super busy the last couple of months, and haven't kept up on the other MJ topics as much as I had been in the past. I totally missed all of these. MJ needs one of those red-faced embarrassed emoticons.
Not that the JTA pays any attention whatsoever to what the public wants, anyway, but at least we can tell them.
Ah, yes, more government spending please. Let the poor smuck taxpayer take it on the chin. All these wonderful mass transit dreams never, ever pay for themselves so taxpayers just have to keep subsidizing everyone riding it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not a good plan unless you are into the politics of envy, divide and conquer.
I sent an email with my concerns and got a prompt response. I was a bit snarky in my email, though, as I have grown tired of our area's lack of vision with regard to transit issues. I was happy to get a quick reply but I am still not holding my breath anytime soon. My fear is that the vast majority of Jacksonville people are content to be doomed to endless traffic problems and no real solutions to our problems...
Apologize for being so late to the party, but have posted on FB and am attempting to drum up comments before the deadline.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on June 02, 2014, 08:24:11 PM
Ah, yes, more government spending please. Let the poor smuck taxpayer take it on the chin. All these wonderful mass transit dreams never, ever pay for themselves so taxpayers just have to keep subsidizing everyone riding it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not a good plan unless you are into the politics of envy, divide and conquer.
Hmmm......wonder who's paying for that new beltway to more urban sprawl? Oh, wait! That serves surburbanites in gas-guzzling SUV's who don't want to live in the urban core. So we
need that. We just don't need to subsidize or provide bus service, street cars and other mass transit those others in the urban core would ride. :-)
Quote from: Redbaron616 on June 02, 2014, 08:24:11 PM
Ah, yes, more government spending please. Let the poor smuck taxpayer take it on the chin. All these wonderful mass transit dreams never, ever pay for themselves so taxpayers just have to keep subsidizing everyone riding it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not a good plan unless you are into the politics of envy, divide and conquer.
Money earmarked for the 2040 Cost Feasible Plan will be split between a mix of transit, roads, bike, pedestrian, freight, safety, etc. projects. If you don't feel your money should be spent on transit and instead spent on something else, tell the TPO. If you think we should turn a blind eye on our entire infrastructure network and let it fall apart, you can tell them that too. Either way, engage the people who make these decisions instead of complaining about things that you can possibly shape by simply getting involved.
^^ +100%
Well put, Lake.
I just took their online survey and emailed them my thoughts. It took all of 15 minutes.
Great! I can't find the survey, but I sent an email.
^
See if this link to the survey will work.
https://survey.co1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_cvze9f9LWgdYfkh (https://survey.co1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_cvze9f9LWgdYfkh)
In 2007 I was optimistic about streetcar, commuter rail and modest skyway expansion. That has changed I do not believe we will see any of it. The politicians aren't interested and JTA has sold out to the fake BRT nonsense.
For what it's worth I think Jax should put all it's transit efforts into streetcar spreading out from the skyway. After a couple of core area lines are built connect them by converting the skyway into a raised streetcar line.
Quote from: brainstormer on June 03, 2014, 06:34:05 AM
^
See if this link to the survey will work.
https://survey.co1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_cvze9f9LWgdYfkh (https://survey.co1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_cvze9f9LWgdYfkh)
Thanks for the link, I missed it also on the feedback website. Great survey, doesn't take long.
Quote from: JeffreyS on June 03, 2014, 08:40:42 AM
In 2007 I was optimistic about streetcar, commuter rail and modest skyway expansion. That has changed I do not believe we will see any of it. The politicians aren't interested and JTA has sold out to the fake BRT nonsense.
BRT never went away. However, we were successful in significantly modifying the crazy original billion dollar plan and getting the commuter rail/streetcar conversation going. To make them a reality, we'll have to continue to drive pressure to politicians to embrace them. If not, expect more roads in fringe areas and the exodus from the core and aging suburbs to continue.
QuoteFor what it's worth I think Jax should put all it's transit efforts into streetcar spreading out from the skyway. After a couple of core area lines are built connect them by converting the skyway into a raised streetcar line.
This is something worth considering, IMO. Would be expensive upfront but makes sense on the surface.
I just checked the TPO website and the agendas for both the TCC and CAC have an item requesting approval of the 2040 Needs Plan "that was presented for review at the May meeting". That's odd considering the comment period ends on the June 3 and the TCC meeting is on June 4. Are they going to incorporate public comments in one day before the Needs Plan is approved by those committees? Seems doubtful. Full TPO Board meeting is on June 12.
Also, the Draft Cost Feasible Plan will be presented to the Board August 6th.
The website said the comment period for the Needs Plan was extended to June 3rd. I guess they wanted to allow the most time for public comment. So....everyone please send your input.
Thanks for the survey link. Found it and took it.
I sent my thoughts over. Probably similar to what a lot of people around here would like to see. Hopefully it makes an impact.
THE OFFICIAL OCKLAWAHA 2040 TRANSIT PLAN
TPO Steering Committee Member, Robert W. Mann, ideas for 2040
MASS TRANSIT CONCEPT MAP KEY:
key:
Yellow - Streetcar (including Gateway-AP Randolph Rapid-Streetcar)
Red - BRT - (International Basic BRT except SILVER or GOLD as noted by color)
Teal - Commuter Rail
Purple - Skyway
Green - Skywalk
(http://www.scribblemaps.com/api/maps/images/450/450/1XJhSBhiyq.png)
http://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/1XJhSBhiyq/
"TOLD YA I'D DO MORE BRT THEN JTA! hee hee hee!
I do believe this map is achievable by 2040, but not with the current crop of driftwood guiding this place. A trend setting mass transit overhaul using two great innovations by two great world powers is sorely needed!
Paved Highways = Via Appia = Roman Empire, circa 312 BC, The Appian Way (Latin and Italian: Via Appia) was one of the earliest and strategically most important Roman roads of the ancient republic. It connected Rome to Brindisi, Apulia, in southeast Italy.
Railroads = The Diolkos = Greek Empire, 600 BC (Δίολκος, from the Greek διά, dia "across" and ὁλκός, holkos "portage machine") was a paved trackway near Corinth in Ancient Greece which enabled boats to be moved overland across the Isthmus of Corinth. Archaic Greece.
Okay, so I'm a full service 'smart ass.'
Will you be there tomorrow?
Somehow fell off the list, but I've got a email in to Ginny, if I get a high green, I'll be there!
(FYI - before somebody jumps off sides, 'HIGH GREEN' is a railroad term for 'go at track speed.')
You have a high green.
I'll come hobbling in tonight! See you there.
FYI...the Adopted Needs Plan has been posted on the TPO's website. There were changes made. The Skyway extension project that was proposed to go to Five Points has been changed to Streetcar (like in the 2035 Plan). It also looks like the proposed skyway project that was from FSCJ to Shands has also been changed to Streetcar.
There is also asterisks on all the streetcar projects that state that "Mode to be determined by feasibility study". This is kind of dumb disclaimer since they are listed as "Streetcar" projects. If the mode is unknown why call it out specifically as a streetcar project.
There may have been other changes made but I only looked at transit projects within the Downtown- Riverside/Avondale area.
http://pathforward2040.com/images/uploads/resources/2014-06-12_Table_Needs_Plan_Projects_.pdf
I've been chasing this along for 34 years now, and those ** have come to have a totally different meaning. I now translate this as:
** Some kind of transit improvement, were writing the word 'streetcar' in the blank to call off the dogs, but we happen to know a PCT is just as cute, and OMG, Skyway is how the cow eats the cabbage in Jacksonville.
That's what JTA wanted because they really want to do Skyway. I haven't had a chance to see the revised maps. Are the transit routes from the 2035 LRTP or the substituted stuff that was initially added in the Needs Plan.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 17, 2014, 01:50:08 PM
That's what JTA wanted because they really want to do Skyway. I haven't had a chance to see the revised maps. Are the transit routes from the 2035 LRTP or the substituted stuff that was initially added in the Needs Plan.
It looks like it is the routes from the 2035 Plan but I haven't really taken the time to study it yet.
If you scroll to the end of this document you can see a project list that appears to show all the changes made to the Draft Need Plan. In the meeting notes there is also discussion about future transit projects. Specifically it says that all the descriptions will include skyway/streetcar for the future expansion of fixed guide way transit in downtown.
http://pathforward2040.com/images/uploads/resources/Steering_Committee_Meeting_June_4_-_Agenda_Package_and_Meeting_Notes.pdf
Frankly IMO, the revised route along the south and west edge of the Springfield Parks works better as a streetcar route as it could be sodded and landscaped, you don't interfere with the new 'Main Street' upgrade, and you could easily serve Bethel, FSCJ, Health Department, a couple of dense apartment complexes, the new VA clinic and end in the UF center on a loop. Little to no street running involved which takes typical streetcar up to the next level-more like rapid transit.
I also MUCH prefer Water/Independence to Bay Street, less traffic, more pedestrian friendly, close to Riverwalk, Landing, Hyatt, and it avoids duplication of the Skyway should it ever move east of Central Station. I also like it better as it moves the streetcar one block further down from any future cross-town run on Duval.
Failure to include direct access to the old F&J rail line behind and running north from Maxwell House to Gateway would be something short of criminal.
Skyway wise, seamless connections could be made with streetcar at
Bay and Newnan
Hogan and First
Riverside and Forrest
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20Heritage%20Trolleys/ScreenShot2014-06-17at22339PM_zpsf6b2fa16.png)
THINK OFF STREET!
Sounds good that they listened on these fronts.
Yes. After the article went up that was posted here, they received 80 comments (over a day period) before the deadline, resulting in a change to what was originally being considered.
That's terrific news, and testament to the power of the forum and the people who make it up.
^ agreed...but the sad part is there should have been no need for the outcry....its kind of perplexing that the project team started on a different path.