Wow, that's about all that could be said about the All Aboard Florida 'station' complex unveiled in Miami yesterday. Makes one wonder what this outfit could do if we'd condense the JRTC and let them have the 8 city blocks in exchange for developing the station... This is pretty amazing.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/28/4142796/miami-orlando-train-executives.html
That is cool, but "an iconic city landmark like the San Francisco Bay Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge or New York's Grand Central Station" it ain't.
I tend to agree, this seems more function then art; in true railroad form. IF we ever get serious about making a real and functional transportation center at Jacksonville Terminal, our would shine much brighter. As for iconic, they're not in the same league.
(http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/5385edd8f92ea1597c024892/AAF%20MIA_052314_AERIALfor%20web.jpg)
Kind of hard to tell from the renderings shown but it's massive enough to become an iconic feature. Will it be on the level of Grand Central or the Golden Gate Bridge? I don't know. I'd argue that they're on the level they are because of the cities they're in, moreso than them, themselves. Placing Grand Central in Jax would be like putting Penn Station in Jax. It becomes the Prime Osborn. Iconic on a local level but not internationally known because Jax isn't global world class city. Until Miami cracks that level (which may be possible), it won't be recognized like Grand Central.
Massive or not, it looks generic.
(http://www.allaboardflorida.com/images/banner4.jpg)
It could easily be mistaken for an airport in some Gulf sheikdom.
(http://media.tcpalm.com/media/img/photos/2014/05/28/AAF_MIA_052314_Elevation_t607.jpg)
Same could be said for the Golden Gate Bridge and Bay Bridges. Suspension bridges are all over the globe.
LOL, looks generic? Sounds like home cooking there. Looks better than anything Jax would do!!!
SF is building essentially the same thing right now, actually (and it keeps getting value-engineered as costs rise). I wouldn't call SF's Transbay Terminal under construction now "iconic" like the GG Bridge is.
The Hoover Dam is still the world's most "iconic" and famous dam and it's in the middle of nowhere, yet is also nowhere near the largest anymore.
I think "iconic" comes about through representation, history, and perhaps a bit of good architecture and where the icon is located helps, but doesn't make or break the icon.
I'm not "blown away" and I'm watching essentially the same thing be constructed right now just 2 blocks from my office. It's not anything radical and SF already beat Miami to it (Miami is just now at rendering stage...it'll be years, perhaps 2 decades, before this thing is complete).
More on "iconic" - general society determines that. NYC had two fantastic train stations, and only one survived and became a living "icon". The other became a symbol of lost history and still permeates people's minds. There are buildings going up in NYC that are taller than the ES Building and are being designed by today's leading architects, but none will be "iconic" like the ES Building, which was so ahead of its time, has a record-setting construction history unmatchted today, and is an irreplaceable piece of NYC and American history that even the world feels attached to. A terrible disaster taking down one of these new condo towers going up would be a disaster, but covered by insurance! Nothing can replace, structurally or intangibly in our hearts a loss of the ES Building.
In SF, there are two great suspension bridges. The Bay Bridge is much longer, arguably prettier, and connects the two main cities. It served a much greater purpose, if we're talking function. The GG Bridge is the only one that became iconic, because it just naturally happened that way in Americans' hearts and minds.
I don't think these modern day transit features being built more and more frequently will be iconic like Grand Central is iconic. Most people won't even know about this thing in Miami, no offense to it. It will be great for the city IF it gets built, but iconic? Nah
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 29, 2014, 12:09:12 PM
Looks better than anything Jax would do!!!
That pretty much goes without saying. But nobody is going to look at a picture of this structure and immediately think "Miami!".
I am glad they finally presented something to the public.
IMHO. The primary tower is unique but the theme doesn't seem to flow "down" to the smaller towers at all. There might have been some architectural reasons they couldnt due to being over the tracks. I need a better 360 view to determine further.
Finehoe: Not sure about any shiekdoms but it does follow several designs SOM has done for China HSR stations in the past few years.
I would love to see a related design that brings that lattice over a future Jax Terminal passenger area. Some don't dig putting the new next to the old but it can work when done right.
I hope they will have Jax in their sights by 2020.
And Ock, when this new train leaves the station, make sure you are on it this time!
I think it's a beautifully executed design...structurally expressive not unlike the Gulf Life Tower here in Jax. I agree that the word "iconic" is overused these days and I don't know if this will live up to that term but nevertheless very nicely done.
I think the most important attribute of this design is the way it integrates what the article calls the "hospitality" functions into the overall masterplan along with the added density of the office towers. This has potential to be a great transit oriented hub in the middle of Miami, the benefits of which would be huge.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 29, 2014, 12:08:21 PM
Same could be said for the Golden Gate Bridge and Bay Bridges. Suspension bridges are all over the globe.
But they don't cross SF Bay all over the globe. In that case it's their location that makes them iconoc, not the fact that they are suspension bridges. Obviously the Miami terminal won't be the only station in the world located in the middle of a city, and there is nothing about the architecture to make it stand out otherwise, so the idea that it's destined to be "iconic" is hyperbolic at best.
But as I said earlier, it sounds like a cool project and I hope it goes according to plan.
I believe what really makes those bridges "iconic" is that they are located in a globally known world class city that's seeped in American West Coast history. Over the years, they've become a part of the folklore and unique atmosphere/landscape of that area. I don't know what will happen in the future but give Miami time to grow up and in another few decades, many places not considered "iconic" today, could be.
Here are some more renderings: http://miami.curbed.com/archives/2014/05/28/all-aboard-florida-reveals-miami-station-renders.php
^^^Both bridges date to the same time as the ES Building, Hoover Dam, Chrysler Building, and other rather large public projects. In the Depression Era, these all became symbols of progress and hope. NYC and SF anchored their respective coasts, as well (to your point...but I don't see Miami serving that role, let alone in a similar time as the 1930s).
The Bay Bridge is not nearly as iconic as the GG Bridge, and it's the bridge that's actually in the city. The GG Bridge is far removed and crosses into mountainous sparsely populated (especially at the time) Marin County. Its setting is not as much City of San Francisco as it is the topography around it, which I think helps it become more iconic, actually (Marin headlands is where most pics are taken...I had a chance encounter with someone I knew visiting from NYC there, we literally ran into each other...so it's the big draw).
Also, as you say, there are lots of suspension bridges. I think the Bay Bridge is perhaps "prettier" in person, but NO suspension bridge to this day even looks like the GG Bridge, and it is still one of the longest spans in the world, despite being so old and despite their being well over 100 significant suspension spans at this point.
Its construction as a public works project (like the Bay Bridge) has bearing on its status as an icon. Its construction history is also as unique and interesting as that of the ES Building, which is a record holder still to this day.
ES Building became the tallest building in the world (until the 1970s) and the GG Bridge became the longest span in the world (until the 1960s), so each was a world record holder (AAF in Miami won't be holding any records).
I think a lot more goes into becoming a true "icon" than the city in which it's located, though city can't hurt. Miami is already known as a party/fun place with pretty people and lots of Latinos. South Beach (and the beach, the Art Deco hotels, the clubs, etc) itself is pretty iconic and reflects Miami very well. Most people in America could probably identify a scene of South Beach as well as they can identify the GG Bridge or ES Building.
I don't foresee Miami somehow becoming a city more like New York or San Francisco, where large public works projects tied to economic cycles become icons, or stuff related to transportation becomes iconic. Miami's not known for being a leading city in the way most cities are thought of. It will take a few generations of reversal before its title as a party capital like Las Vegas can be shaken, and its title as a global iconic city of commerce can be created instead. Icons related to corporate success stories (Chrysler Building), public works (Hoover Dam), transportation (GG Bridge), government (the White House), or history (Statue of Liberty or Liberty Bell) will never be a major thing in Miami.
Also, anyone can look it up, but the Transbay Terminal, which is already under construction now, looks pretty similar to this, if not "better". It's designed by Pelli Clarke Pelli, who also designed the Salesforce Tower (1,070 ft) under construction adjacent to it.
http://pcparch.com/project/transbay-transit-center-and-tower
http://www.youtube.com/v/PU8EDAlfjNk?version=3&
Between the two, I would think TB Terminal has a higher chance of becoming iconic than the one in Miami, and yet I think neither will be iconic. These things are just impossible to do well/right in our modern times. Funding for the $2B Terminal here in SF (and that excludes HSR and Caltrain extension connections into the terminal...that's just the structure) is very difficult to find. People aren't as enthused about these kinds of projects anymore. Even here in CA, there is a large segment of the population trying to derail HSR. Finding political ability and public financing for extending Caltrain into the new station is proving all but impossible. These are unnecessary roadblocks that weren't present in 1930s America when people actually looked to the government to find projects to put people to work.
Going back to Nude Beaches, there is one called Baker Beach below the GG bridge. It is family friendly and a cool place for locals to sunbathe (IF there is sun) or walk around. It is not a "main" beach, though, and is part of federally protected land (the Presidio). 90% of the nude sunbathers are >50 years old, and probably 70+% are men. Just FYI :D
I'm no architect, but I can certainly understand how a contemporary design such as this can be pereceived as "generic." Straight lines, monochromatic color schemes, and emphasis on simplicty and function over elaborate design and embellishments can often give off a cold and genericly "un-homey" feel. I suppose that could stem from how regularly that architectural design is employed nowadays for apartment buildings, universities, restaurants, etc. and doesn't necessarily reflect other buildings in the area. For a series of examples, examine the construction on-going at the University of North Florida: the biology building, gymnasium, student union, etc., are all highly functional buildings constructed to LEED standards which routinely use neutral color schemes of whites, beiges and greys. They are fantastic examples of the design, but sometimes that design can sacrifice a unique sense of identity in the name of functionality.
Miami has, for decades, profited from marketing its distinctly Floridian feel - all the buildings on South Beach, many homes in the area, and much of the image of Miami in media usually showcases a palette of light pinks, blues, greens, and yellows and art deco design. This "South-Florida look" might have made this station more architecturally consistent, but rarely is something like this considered iconic based on design alone.
Whether this station becomes known as iconic is in large part, determined by how much it's used. I hope this new station is successful in the area because it has the capacity to demonstrate the importance of mass transit in Florida. Furthermore, the design illustrates just how crucial it is to have retail built into the infrastructure of the transit system. The Jacksonville Skyrail has not lived up to expectations for a variety of reasons, but not incorporating retail into the design was a colossal failure. Best case scenario, this station is a resounding success and it gets Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville moving towards revamping their respective transportation systems.
Quote from: taylormiller on May 29, 2014, 03:02:04 PM
Best case scenario, this station is a resounding success and it gets Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville moving towards revamping their respective transportation systems.
I definitely agree with this! As for the station's design, I think the towers will ultimately define it. Whether it becomes something "iconic" will probably depend just as much on the evolution of the city globally as the architecture and function of the building.
I would argue that it doesn't have to be in a 'world city' to be 'world iconic.' As simms3 has said, the Hoover Dam is really in the middle of absolutely nothing! In transportation Pikes Peak, Mt. Washington, Chattanooga Choo Choo, and the Spencer Shops are as iconic as Penn Station or Grand Central. LaSalle Street, Dearborn, Central, Union, Grand Central, Northwestern, South Shore Stations in Chicago were iconic, but not any more then the ones in Memphis, LA, Terminal or Union in Atlanta and none were as beautiful as Union in Augusta or Savannah. Jacksonville's Union Terminal Station is very iconic, known to travelers of my generation around the world, known by a simple glance, known by its reputation as the hub of the hive in downtown and sadly known as the station that was saved and forgotten, mismanaged and wildly unrealistic.
We could have that iconic hive back in downtown, but the powers that be, JTA, FDOT nor anyone else is listening. CHIRP CHIRP.
^Ock, the average American today probably has no idea of what the Chattanooga Choo Choo or the Spencer Shops are. Heck, I consider myself to be somewhat knowledgeable about transportation and nothing visual pops in my head for half of those places listed. Other than Grand Central, most of those I didn't know about till visiting those cities and coming across them. Iconic is one of those terms that means something different to different people.
Agreed, to both of you.
Iconic to me is more or less along the lines of Grand Central. That said, Mount Rushmore, Hoover Dam, Gateway Arch, the Alamo, the Mormon Tabernacle, Fort Sumter, Hatteras Lighthouse, Plymouth Rock, Mt. Vernon, and more to name a few are all pretty iconic manmade structures that aren't iconic simply because of the *world-class* cities or areas in which they are in (STL is the most major of these cities and isn't even a major city any more, yet everyone in America and likely quite a few worldwide know about the Gateway Arch, probably the only thing they can visualize concerning the area...and they may not even know it's in STL, just that it exists).
I think a stereotypical scene from South Beach is about as iconic as it already gets. A tall building or rail terminal in DT Miami is probably never going to be iconic. Miami is a globally known city, but despite all those condo towers, nobody except for skyscraper fanatics such as myself gives two shits about its downtown.
My whole question here is what is all of this going to tie to? Rail ties commerce centers. DT Miami really isn't a commerce center. It has about as much office space as Oakland, CA. It's tying to Orlando, which is arguably being more successful at centralizing the area's commerce activities (outside of theme parks/conventions) downtown. But neither is a mecca of commerce.
Commuting patterns between Miami/Orlando just aren't the same as between cities on the Bos/Wash corridor, or between Sacramento/SF/LA/SD, or between Portland and Seattle or between Chicago, Indy, Milwaukee, and Minneapolis.
Maybe the hope is that having rail will spur more commercial activity through connectivity? Swire wants to build a 1,000 ft office tower in DT Miami. It's not the first "serious" proposal for the same, none of which have happened. Where are the tenants going to come from?
Most of the towers accompanying these massive almost self-contained developments (such as this AAF rail terminal) are still condo/luxury hotel. And the vast majority of buyers are still foreigners looking for piggy banks. I'm still not optimistic about any of this and will continue to love Miami for South Beach and its party atmosphere, not for its downtown/commerce activities.
Just for clarification, I wasn't stating that to be an iconic place or feature, it had to be located in a world class city. I was just expressing my opinion that the Bay Area's bridges benefit from being in a place that is iconic in itself in terms of history, culture and natural urban landscape. There are several bridges across the globe that are equally impressive but lesser known because the places they are located in aren't as easily recognized by the larger population.
I like it a lot. I would happily have something that breaks the horrific mold that Jax architecture has become encased in.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 29, 2014, 08:10:49 PM
Just for clarification, I wasn't stating that to be an iconic place or feature, it had to be located in a world class city. I was just expressing my opinion that the Bay Area's bridges benefit from being in a place that is iconic in itself in terms of history, culture and natural urban landscape. There are several bridges across the globe that are equally impressive but lesser known because the places they are located in aren't as easily recognized by the larger population.
No I get it, and agree to some sort of extent (not sure which extent, but one).
But the following is a shortlist of why I think the Empire State Building and Golden Gate Bridge are iconic, in no particular order:
1) Record setters (and long-standing records, some of which still remain). ASCE names both to list of 7 Modern Wonders of World. Will AAF/Miami train station set any major new records and hold these records for decades to come?
2) Era (1930s Depression Era)...these were symbols of hope for the economy and employed massive amounts of people in a time of the worst unemployment in American history (one was Public Works, one was corporate growth/ego). We are back to record employment levels and record skepticism of government intrusion into the economy/anything. Totally opposite times.
3) Design - ES almost best embodies the Art Deco period and GG Bridge still looks so unique/handsome amongst all bridges. The design of this station is subjective, but I don't think it's cool/unique enough to be "iconic". In fact, Cesar Pelli's counterpart UC now in SF is better looking, imo, and I don't think that's iconic either.
4) Setting - NYC's setting is defined by skyscrapers, and this reigned above them all. SF's setting is defined by the Bay/mts, and the bridge crossed the Bay into the mountains, so each icon takes advantage of each area's most well known feature (Miami's not known explicitly for skyscrapers, commerce, trains, or big public works...and I think unless it's in SoBe nobody outside of Miami cares about it).
5) The cities themselves - someone from Kansas could easily follow the progress of the ES Building or GG Bridge because the media was based in NYC and SF at the time, and those cities were the largest and most important at that time. Mount Rushmore and the Hoover Dam were also under construction in remote parts at this time, and while iconic, they were probably more difficult to "follow" for the average American. Nobody in KS is going to give a shit about a new train station in DT Miami.
Let's not forget that the American public is a lot less enamored with public works/infrastructure projects now than they were then. Even here in SF/CA, HSR and the new train stations are more controversial for cost/necessity than not. In the 1930s these projects would have been celebrated, especially since Americans were relying on the government to pull the country out of its economic mess.
I guess that's why I don't think the cities themselves "matter" as much. Miami is
already global and iconic, but for reasons so vastly different from what this train station represents that this train station will never become iconic in the way that Grand Central is, or ES Building/GG Bridge are.
Quote from: avonjax on May 29, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
I like it a lot. I would happily have something that breaks the horrific mold that Jax architecture has become encased in.
Architect on record is Zyscovich Architects (local to Miami) with namesake/input from SOM (Roger Duffy to be specific...he also led the conception of Penn Station redevelopment in NYC and is based out of NYC).
Craig Hartman at SOM designed an SOM building rising a block from my office. With a firm that large, individual designs can vary and run the full gamut. SOM often consults and lends its name to very large projects that are actually designed mostly by smaller/local firms.
SOM also redesigned the now famous Denver Union Station redevelopment.
I don't think they've designed anything in FL yet except for a version of the Cleveland Clinic in Weston, FL. SOM keeps offices in Chicago (founded), NYC, SF, Los Angeles, and DC (+ London, AbuDhabi, Mumbai, Hong kong, and Shanghai).
^Zyscovich was COJ's consultant for the COJ Visioning Plans that the 2030 Mobility Plan was tailored to help implement.
More pics:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/20r2rg6.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2ytzdkl.jpg)
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=6596633#post6596633
This is the Miami World Center project that will be going up next door to AAF's development:
(http://miami.curbed.com/uploads/eafIta1.jpg)
Generic? ::)
Are you kidding? These concepts are about as modern and stylish as a train station can get. It completely fits in with Miami, and couldn't be more tasteful.
Jealous?
^Unfortunately, you'll be hard pressed to find such a design in Jax. I'll take that any day over this beauty:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.3425.feature.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.1940.feature.jpg)
IMO it doesn't have to set any new trends, it just has to be functional. Move people about quickly and efficiently. Of course a little artistic/architectural creativity never hurt. And I am definitely jealous, lol.